/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2014-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 31 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <timeless> tzivia: BBB
  4. # [00:00] * Joins: Kenny (hbwhzk@public.cloak)
  5. # [00:00] <timeless> dcramer: David Cramer, CCC
  6. # [00:00] <timeless> paulc: two topics PFWG wanted to talk about, overlapped w/ DpubIG and CSS
  7. # [00:00] <dauwhe> s/tzivia/tzviya/
  8. # [00:00] <timeless> ... support for notes/footnotes
  9. # [00:00] * Joins: MichaelC_ (cooper@public.cloak)
  10. # [00:00] <timeless> ... roles/validation
  11. # [00:01] <timeless> ... and since Canvas TF is a11y related
  12. # [00:01] <timeless> ... i'm going to overrule my original decision
  13. # [00:01] <timeless> ... we'll do Canvas last
  14. # [00:01] * MichaelC_ is now known as MichaelC
  15. # [00:01] * MichaelC rrsagent, make minutes
  16. # [00:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html MichaelC
  17. # [00:01] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  18. # [00:01] <timeless> s/BBB/Tzviya Siegman/
  19. # [00:01] <timeless> janina: PF is mushrooming
  20. # [00:02] * Joins: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak)
  21. # [00:02] <timeless> ... we're thrilled to be working w/ DpubIG on enhancing access to books
  22. # [00:02] <timeless> ... making that accessible
  23. # [00:02] <timeless> ... desire of DpubIG is to leverage HTML5 to do this
  24. # [00:02] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
  25. # [00:02] <timeless> ... it doesn't quite meet their requirements
  26. # [00:02] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  27. # [00:02] <timeless> ... a lot of our discussion just concluded was on what doesn't meet this
  28. # [00:02] <timeless> ... wanted to share our approach w/ HTML WG
  29. # [00:02] <timeless> ... 1. semantic markup
  30. # [00:02] <timeless> ... need to know what's what when you publish a book
  31. # [00:03] <timeless> ... what's a chapter, subsection
  32. # [00:03] <timeless> ... might function like a chapter
  33. # [00:03] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
  34. # [00:03] <timeless> ... but it might be another word
  35. # [00:03] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  36. # [00:03] <timeless> ... Dante's Inferno uses Canto's -- like chapters
  37. # [00:03] <timeless> ... PF as gatekeeper
  38. # [00:03] <timeless> ... community extensible vocabulary, PF manages to avoid collisions of definitions
  39. # [00:03] <timeless> ... roles will help identify what's what
  40. # [00:03] <timeless> ... and help assistive technology present it appropriately
  41. # [00:03] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  42. # [00:04] <timeless> s/AAA/Dpub Roles/
  43. # [00:04] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  44. # [00:04] <timeless> ... ARIA needs to change slightly, but not much
  45. # [00:04] <timeless> ... footnotes we do need better support from HTML
  46. # [00:04] * Joins: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak)
  47. # [00:04] <timeless> ... footnotes is best as an example of what's missing
  48. # [00:04] <timeless> ... not the only thing that's missing
  49. # [00:04] <timeless> ... #frag isn't enough
  50. # [00:04] <timeless> ... want to know where it starts, and where it ends
  51. # [00:05] <timeless> ... <p>...</p> don't have for footnotes
  52. # [00:05] <dauwhe_> q+ for Tzviya
  53. # [00:05] * Zakim sees dauwhe_ on the speaker queue
  54. # [00:05] <timeless> ... what kinds these structures
  55. # [00:05] <timeless> ... don't treat it as the full object
  56. # [00:05] <timeless> ... hard to know where to end
  57. # [00:05] <timeless> ... additional problems
  58. # [00:05] <timeless> ... you came from somewhere, something referenced it
  59. # [00:05] <timeless> ... you need to go back to where you came from
  60. # [00:05] <timeless> ... but you could come from many places
  61. # [00:05] <timeless> ... you want to go back to the right place
  62. # [00:06] <timeless> ... i'd be remiss if i didn't touch on
  63. # [00:06] <timeless> ... we had a Director's decision about a Formal Objection on longdesc=
  64. # [00:06] <timeless> ... Dpub needs that, but it isn't enough
  65. # [00:06] <timeless> ... different kinds of media
  66. # [00:06] <timeless> ... braille + graphic + texted description as targets
  67. # [00:06] <timeless> ... may be need for different description for image for different audiences
  68. # [00:07] <timeless> ... want to work with them
  69. # [00:07] <timeless> ... everyone who hates longdesc=, or those who like it
  70. # [00:07] <timeless> ... help us build a better mousetrap
  71. # [00:07] <timeless> ... for kids in schools, and professionals
  72. # [00:07] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
  73. # [00:07] <timeless> ... to be fairly tested on their knowledge, not lack of sensory ability
  74. # [00:07] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  75. # [00:07] <timeless> ... what did i miss Tzviya?
  76. # [00:07] * Joins: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  77. # [00:07] <timeless> Tzviya: vocabulary for role, would cover how long
  78. # [00:07] <timeless> ... if i link to footnote
  79. # [00:07] <timeless> ... we don't have a method to get back to the content
  80. # [00:08] <dauwhe_> ack dauwhe_
  81. # [00:08] <Zakim> dauwhe_, you wanted to discuss Tzviya
  82. # [00:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  83. # [00:08] <timeless> ... it's really crappy to navigate through an eBook right now
  84. # [00:08] <timeless> ... we see sexy manipulation, footnote pops up
  85. # [00:08] <rubys1> zakim, q?
  86. # [00:08] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  87. # [00:08] <timeless> ... but for sighted readers,
  88. # [00:08] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  89. # [00:08] <timeless> ... if i turn the page, it might not be there
  90. # [00:08] <timeless> ... if i want to cite it, it's not there
  91. # [00:08] <timeless> ... if i want to print it
  92. # [00:08] <timeless> .. it's not there
  93. # [00:08] <timeless> s/../.../
  94. # [00:08] <timeless> Tzviya: we need some method for maintaining these
  95. # [00:08] <timeless> ... linking them
  96. # [00:08] <timeless> ... maintaining a functional body
  97. # [00:09] <timeless> ... one group exploring this is Annotations WG
  98. # [00:09] <timeless> ... maybe
  99. # [00:09] * Joins: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
  100. # [00:09] <timeless> janina: how to build a better footnote
  101. # [00:09] <timeless> ... how to treat that object in a publication
  102. # [00:09] <timeless> ... we'll identify the structures that need it
  103. # [00:09] <timeless> paulc: you want the equivalent of the back button?
  104. # [00:10] <timeless> jfolio: increasingly complex if you have 3 refs to the same footnote in the document
  105. # [00:10] <timeless> ... on the second instance, you jump down and read the footnote
  106. # [00:10] <timeless> ... the requirement is to go back to the same resource that sent you
  107. # [00:10] <timeless> ... there's memory capture
  108. # [00:10] <timeless> paulc: that's what the back reference does
  109. # [00:11] <timeless> ... 3 refs to IBM quarterly results
  110. # [00:11] <timeless> ... i can click on one of them, go to the content, and click back
  111. # [00:11] * Quits: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  112. # [00:11] <timeless> darobin_: if i click back twice accidentally, i've lost my place
  113. # [00:11] <timeless> ... and yay footnotes
  114. # [00:12] <timeless> paulc: are people hypothesizing a <footnote> ?
  115. # [00:12] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  116. # [00:12] <timeless> [ No ]
  117. # [00:12] <timeless> rniwa: i think the back button not working seems like an Implementation issue
  118. # [00:12] <timeless> ... more than a spec bug
  119. # [00:12] <timeless> ... is back() spec'd ?
  120. # [00:13] <timeless> zcorpan: the behavior of the Back button depends on the
  121. # [00:13] <timeless> ... navigation part of the spec
  122. # [00:13] <timeless> ... which is a mess
  123. # [00:13] <timeless> darobin_: in ebook navigation context, you might not be exactly in the same context as in the browser
  124. # [00:13] <timeless> ... if you go from a footnote, and hit back twice, you might exit the book
  125. # [00:13] <mhakkinen> +q
  126. # [00:13] * Zakim sees mhakkinen on the speaker queue
  127. # [00:13] <MikeSmith> q?
  128. # [00:13] * Zakim sees mhakkinen on the speaker queue
  129. # [00:14] <timeless> Josh_Soref: that case, it will probably be better, since the book should remember the last place you were in
  130. # [00:14] <timeless> s/+q/q+/
  131. # [00:14] <rniwa> q+
  132. # [00:14] * Zakim sees mhakkinen, rniwa on the speaker queue
  133. # [00:14] <timeless> darobin_: you might want to know where the footnote came from for something
  134. # [00:14] <timeless> ack mhakkinen
  135. # [00:14] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  136. # [00:14] <timeless> mhakkinen: i've been working on print style footnotes in html+css
  137. # [00:14] <timeless> ... people will code footnote at point of reference
  138. # [00:14] <timeless> ... renderings involve moving that content to somewhere else in the document
  139. # [00:14] <timeless> ... bottom of page, floated to margin as a marginal note
  140. # [00:15] <timeless> ... sometimes we want to put something where it was
  141. # [00:15] <timeless> ... larger problem
  142. # [00:15] <timeless> ... if you float it, you might want a marker at point of origin
  143. # [00:15] <timeless> s/mhakkinen/skramer/
  144. # [00:15] <timeless> ... might be able to use to create this
  145. # [00:15] <timeless> Tzivya: we have that need in many places
  146. # [00:16] <timeless> paulc: we've spent 4 hours today telling people who come to us to do it on their own
  147. # [00:16] <timeless> [ laughter ]
  148. # [00:16] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  149. # [00:16] <timeless> mhakkinen: Mark Hakkinen, Educational Testing Service (ETS)
  150. # [00:16] <timeless> ... footnote
  151. # [00:16] <timeless> ... we have test items, delivered in HTML
  152. # [00:16] <timeless> ... reading task items
  153. # [00:16] <timeless> ... going back and forth
  154. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  155. # [00:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  156. # [00:16] <timeless> ... "in the following sentence"
  157. # [00:16] <timeless> ... you want to go back / forth in the sentence
  158. # [00:17] <timeless> ... we don't want to hard code
  159. # [00:17] <timeless> ... really hard code
  160. # [00:17] <timeless> q?
  161. # [00:17] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  162. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> s/skramer/dauwhe_/
  163. # [00:17] <timeless> ... hard to code for assistive technologies
  164. # [00:17] <timeless> ack rniwa
  165. # [00:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  166. # [00:17] <timeless> rniwa: ebook reader
  167. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> dauwhe_ is Dave Cramer
  168. # [00:17] <timeless> ... if they have a special UI to get out of a book, that's outside the realm of html wg
  169. # [00:17] <timeless> ... i have a hard time of reconciling that
  170. # [00:17] * Joins: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
  171. # [00:17] <timeless> ... if the UC is inside the page
  172. # [00:18] <timeless> ... if it's involving iBook content
  173. # [00:18] <timeless> ... not really a web app per say
  174. # [00:18] <timeless> s/say/se/
  175. # [00:18] <timeless> darobin_: we need UCs
  176. # [00:18] <timeless> ... to be pretty clear
  177. # [00:18] <timeless> ... paulc said you'd be on your own
  178. # [00:18] <timeless> ... obviously we'd be helping
  179. # [00:18] <timeless> ... value: bring UCs
  180. # [00:18] <timeless> ... explaining what the problem is
  181. # [00:18] * Joins: AndChat708441 (~AndChat708441@public.cloak)
  182. # [00:18] <timeless> ... what can't be solved w/ existing technologies
  183. # [00:18] <timeless> ... with code examples
  184. # [00:19] <timeless> ... we might come back w/ you could use this
  185. # [00:19] <timeless> rniwa: we also need to figure out which part of those problems that can be solved w/in HTML WG
  186. # [00:19] * Joins: shoko_ (~shoko@public.cloak)
  187. # [00:19] <timeless> ... maybe some in other WGs, maybe government regulations
  188. # [00:19] * Joins: jamesx (~jamesx@public.cloak)
  189. # [00:19] * Joins: renmin_ (~renmin@public.cloak)
  190. # [00:19] <timeless> darobin_: it might always be HTML, some may be CSS,
  191. # [00:19] <timeless> Tzivya: we came here to talk about ARIA
  192. # [00:19] * Joins: song_ (~song@public.cloak)
  193. # [00:19] <timeless> ... the only ask of HTML is Validation of Role
  194. # [00:20] <timeless> ... work is to provide information to PF
  195. # [00:20] <timeless> ... i have time
  196. # [00:20] <timeless> janina: as long as you're ok w/ using rel= as a model
  197. # [00:20] * Joins: hiroto_ (~hiroto@public.cloak)
  198. # [00:20] <timeless> s/rel=/role=/
  199. # [00:20] <timeless> darobin_: if we start adding too many roles
  200. # [00:20] <timeless> ... are there cases where you expect someone to want two roles?
  201. # [00:21] <timeless> Tzivya: no
  202. # [00:21] <timeless> ... that's our task to prevent
  203. # [00:21] <timeless> janina: that's why we want a gatekeeper for role=s
  204. # [00:21] <timeless> s/Dpub Roles/Dpub Roles and footnotes/
  205. # [00:21] <timeless> paulc: you're the 3rd/4th WG that came in here, that i said the same thing
  206. # [00:22] * Quits: wei-james (~wei-james@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  207. # [00:22] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  208. # [00:22] <timeless> topic: Canvas TF
  209. # [00:22] * Quits: shoko (~shoko@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  210. # [00:22] * Quits: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  211. # [00:22] * timeless MarkS ?
  212. # [00:22] <timeless> MarkS: Mark Sodecky
  213. # [00:22] * timeless drop link?
  214. # [00:22] * Joins: Youngsun_Ryu_ (~Youngsun_Ryu@public.cloak)
  215. # [00:22] <timeless> ... majority of recent work was a11y focussed
  216. # [00:23] <timeless> ... a lot of work was Canvas subgroup, of HTML/a11y TF
  217. # [00:23] <timeless> ... now it's Canvas TF under HTML
  218. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> s/Sodecky/Sadecki
  219. # [00:23] * Parts: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (dauwhe_)
  220. # [00:23] <timeless> ... public-canvas-api@
  221. # [00:23] <timeless> ... we have Canvas Level 2 in CR
  222. # [00:23] <timeless> ... currently writing tests
  223. # [00:23] * Quits: Youngsun_Ryu (~Youngsun_Ryu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  224. # [00:23] <timeless> ... identified 24 testable statements -- tests written for all but 3
  225. # [00:23] <timeless> ... we need to use an a11y inspector for some conditions
  226. # [00:23] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  227. # [00:24] <timeless> ... jonny diggs from igalia, contributor webkit gtk thinks we can automate it
  228. # [00:24] * Quits: song (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  229. # [00:24] <timeless> ... there's one where we need to get a bug fixed in webkit
  230. # [00:24] * Quits: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  231. # [00:25] <timeless> ... two may prevent us from exiting CR
  232. # [00:25] <timeless> ... 2 changes to the spec, one is purely editorial
  233. # [00:25] * Quits: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  234. # [00:25] <timeless> ... one is an oddity, support in 2 browsers
  235. # [00:25] <timeless> ... records of talking about this feature in our minutes
  236. # [00:25] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  237. # [00:25] <timeless> ... actions to add this to the spec
  238. # [00:25] <timeless> ... we looked into adding it to the spec
  239. # [00:25] <timeless> ... but it isn't in the spec @CR
  240. # [00:25] <timeless> ... we'll have to add that back to the spec
  241. # [00:25] <timeless> ... we recently lost our editor from MS
  242. # [00:26] <timeless> ... all editors are currently not actively editing
  243. # [00:26] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  244. # [00:26] <timeless> ... i've talked to Rick Am to pick up editing
  245. # [00:26] * timeless MikeSmith ???^
  246. # [00:26] <timeless> ... question to you, do we have to go back to LC?
  247. # [00:26] <timeless> rubys: if it's substantive
  248. # [00:26] <timeless> MarkS: yes
  249. # [00:26] <timeless> ... then we'll have to go back
  250. # [00:26] <MikeSmith> s/Rick Am/Rik Cabanier
  251. # [00:26] <timeless> plh: you can go to LC, or switch to new Process
  252. # [00:27] <timeless> ... and go to CR
  253. # [00:27] <timeless> paulc: summarize new process
  254. # [00:27] <timeless> plh: a lot easier to go to REC w/ new process
  255. # [00:27] <cabanier> I thought we can stay in CR
  256. # [00:27] * timeless not on Process 2005
  257. # [00:27] <timeless> ... the new Process would let you update in CR, still need Director approval
  258. # [00:28] <timeless> paulc: doesn't the 90 day IP LC period still apply?
  259. # [00:28] <timeless> plh: maybe
  260. # [00:28] <timeless> paulc: new Process, if you're in CR, you can cycle in CR
  261. # [00:28] <timeless> ... old Process, you were in CR, leave CR back to LC, then back to CR
  262. # [00:28] <timeless> ... sometimes people would skip CR
  263. # [00:28] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  264. # [00:28] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
  265. # [00:28] <timeless> ... nowhere on the Agenda was whether we should switch to the new Process
  266. # [00:29] <timeless> plh: the Process applies on a per spec basis
  267. # [00:29] <timeless> ... do whatever is simplest
  268. # [00:29] <timeless> hober: at the last CSS F2F (Sofia), we agreed to move to the new Process at spec time
  269. # [00:29] <timeless> s/spec/publication/
  270. # [00:29] * Joins: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  271. # [00:29] <timeless> paulc: their interpretation was one decision
  272. # [00:29] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
  273. # [00:30] <timeless> ... as soon as they republish a document, it's published under the new Process
  274. # [00:30] <timeless> ... reality, we have a C&P/Delete error, it impacts implementations, and needs to be fixed
  275. # [00:30] <timeless> ... when will it be fixed?
  276. # [00:30] <timeless> MarkS: next week
  277. # [00:30] <timeless> ... and we have support in implementations
  278. # [00:30] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  279. # [00:30] <timeless> janina: test results, just not spec language
  280. # [00:31] * timeless MikeSmith can you fix CCC earlier?
  281. # [00:31] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  282. # [00:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  283. # [00:31] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak)
  284. # [00:31] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html
  285. # [00:31] <timeless> paulc: model criteria for HTML WG
  286. # [00:32] <timeless> ... apply to all our documents
  287. # [00:32] <timeless> Implementation
  288. # [00:32] <timeless> A user agent which:
  289. # [00:32] <timeless> (1) implements the "Web browsers and other interactive user agents" conformance class of the specification.
  290. # [00:32] <timeless> (2) is available to the general public. The implementation may be a shipping product or other publicly available version (i.e., beta version, preview release, or “nightly build”). Non-shipping product releases must have implemented the feature(s) for a period of at least one month in order to demonstrate stability, or be endorsed by their responsible
  291. # [00:32] <timeless> organization as sufficiently stable.
  292. # [00:32] <timeless> (3) is not experimental (i.e., a version specifically designed to pass the test suite and is not intended for normal usage going forward).
  293. # [00:32] <timeless> (4) is suitable for a person to use as his/her primary means of accessing the Web.
  294. # [00:33] <timeless> paulc: do your implementations pass this bar?
  295. # [00:33] <timeless> MarkS: i believe so
  296. # [00:33] <timeless> ... hit region, drawfocus,
  297. # [00:33] <timeless> s/drawfocus/drawfocus:ifneeded/
  298. # [00:33] <timeless> ... Firefox Nightly, Chrome Canary, WebKit
  299. # [00:33] <timeless> paulc: i wanted to make sure i ran this by you
  300. # [00:33] * Quits: AndChat708441 (~AndChat708441@public.cloak) ("Bye")
  301. # [00:34] <timeless> ... other questions of Canvas TF?
  302. # [00:34] <timeless> [ Silence ]
  303. # [00:34] * Joins: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  304. # [00:34] * Joins: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak)
  305. # [00:34] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  306. # [00:34] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  307. # [00:34] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  308. # [00:35] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  309. # [00:35] <timeless> Topic: Process 2014
  310. # [00:35] * timeless http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/
  311. # [00:35] <MarkS> s/Sadocky/Sadecki/G
  312. # [00:36] * Joins: wilhelm (~wilhelm@public.cloak)
  313. # [00:36] <MarkS> s/jonny diggs/joanie diggs/G
  314. # [00:36] <MarkS> s/bug fixed in webkit/bug fixed in chrome
  315. # [00:36] <MarkS> s/Rick Am/Rik Cabanier
  316. # [00:37] <timeless> plh: the motivation for the new process
  317. # [00:37] <timeless> ... was to resolve the case
  318. # [00:37] <timeless> ... you're making a change to a CR
  319. # [00:37] <timeless> ... you have to go all--the-way back to LC
  320. # [00:37] <timeless> ... wait a while
  321. # [00:37] <timeless> ... and then to CR
  322. # [00:37] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  323. # [00:37] <timeless> ... we did that for HTML5 this year, despite the fact that we were in CR
  324. # [00:37] <rubys> q+
  325. # [00:37] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
  326. # [00:37] <timeless> ... the AB decided to make it more agile
  327. # [00:38] <timeless> ... we allow the group to update their CR
  328. # [00:38] <timeless> ... just require Director approval
  329. # [00:38] <timeless> ... additionally, the new process recognized that LC wasn't the best vehicle to do large review of documents
  330. # [00:38] <timeless> ... wanted to give WG a more flexible way to do Wide-Review
  331. # [00:38] <timeless> ... you have a WD
  332. # [00:38] <timeless> ... you iterate
  333. # [00:38] <timeless> ... then you go to CR
  334. # [00:38] <timeless> ... then iterate
  335. # [00:38] <timeless> ... once you're done, you go to PR
  336. # [00:39] * Quits: marcjohlic (~AndChat531456@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  337. # [00:39] * Joins: AndChat|531456 (~AndChat531456@public.cloak)
  338. # [00:39] <timeless> ... don't be fooled -- thinking that you don't need review
  339. # [00:39] <timeless> ... process says you need to demonstrate wide-review before CR
  340. # [00:39] <timeless> ... there was a discussion yesterday
  341. # [00:39] <timeless> ... and there's a wikipage
  342. # [00:39] <timeless> ... if you make a substantive change in CR
  343. # [00:39] * Quits: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  344. # [00:39] <timeless> ... the Director will ask if you have wide-review for the change
  345. # [00:39] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  346. # [00:39] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
  347. # [00:39] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
  348. # [00:39] <MikeSmith> s/CCC/Hachette Livre
  349. # [00:40] <timeless> ... wide-review will depend on the change
  350. # [00:40] <timeless> ... if it was a change of a function name,
  351. # [00:40] <adrianba> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#What_is_Wide_Review_and_How_do_we_achieve_it TPAC break-out on wide review
  352. # [00:40] <timeless> ... it will be if you got review from implementers
  353. # [00:40] <timeless> ... from Patent Policy
  354. # [00:40] <timeless> ... it changes LC to CR
  355. # [00:40] * Parts: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Leaving)
  356. # [00:40] <timeless> ... what does it mean if we make a change in CR and publish
  357. # [00:40] * Quits: xhuang (~emu@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  358. # [00:40] <timeless> ... the answer is you trigger a 60 day period for IP
  359. # [00:40] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
  360. # [00:40] <timeless> ... if you go to Director asking to go to PR
  361. # [00:41] <timeless> ... he'll want to wait for it to close
  362. # [00:41] <timeless> ... when do you change Process
  363. # [00:41] <timeless> ... it can be per-spec
  364. # [00:41] <timeless> ... but CSS decided, for each publication, when they publish, they'll switch
  365. # [00:41] <timeless> ... that's it
  366. # [00:41] <timeless> ack rubys
  367. # [00:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  368. # [00:41] <timeless> rubys: i interpreted it as an explicit endorsement
  369. # [00:41] <timeless> hober: that's correct
  370. # [00:42] <timeless> rubys: and i heard it as not saying there's a step back
  371. # [00:42] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  372. # [00:42] <timeless> paulc: the most common way of answering a Q in TR ->CR/ ->PR
  373. # [00:42] <timeless> ... is to ask "did you get wide-review"
  374. # [00:42] <timeless> ... is to answer with the link for bugzilla for LC
  375. # [00:42] <timeless> ... that's what we did for HTML5
  376. # [00:42] <timeless> ... that's what we did for Pre-LC and LC
  377. # [00:42] <timeless> ... what plh is saying you still have to be able to demonstrate wide-review
  378. # [00:43] <timeless> rubys: we still put in the bugzilla link
  379. # [00:43] <timeless> paulc: the bugzilla link is to all bugs since you started the document
  380. # [00:43] <timeless> ... i've not heard any mention of LC
  381. # [00:43] <timeless> ... was LC wasn't required, many people were doing testing/review while they did spec work
  382. # [00:43] <timeless> ... why should they do WD/testing,
  383. # [00:43] * Quits: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak) ("Bye")
  384. # [00:43] * Joins: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak)
  385. # [00:43] * Quits: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak) ("Bye")
  386. # [00:43] <timeless> ... then you go to a public CR for implementations
  387. # [00:43] * Joins: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak)
  388. # [00:43] * Quits: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak) ("Bye")
  389. # [00:44] <timeless> ... going to CR is an onus on Chairs to prove to the Directors that you have more implementations
  390. # [00:44] <timeless> rubys: i've heard no downsides
  391. # [00:44] <timeless> paulc: when i Chaired XML-Query WG
  392. # [00:44] * Parts: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  393. # [00:44] <timeless> ... a family of specs rivaling size of HTML5
  394. # [00:44] <timeless> ... i couldn't reach LC
  395. # [00:44] <timeless> ... because people wouldn't review the document as a WD
  396. # [00:45] <timeless> ... until it got into LC
  397. # [00:45] <timeless> ... so i had to do multiple LCs
  398. # [00:45] <timeless> ... XQuery had 4 LCs
  399. # [00:45] <timeless> ... the last had 120 comments
  400. # [00:45] <timeless> ... the only w/ more was the Patent Policy itself
  401. # [00:45] <timeless> ... having a stage saying it's functionally complete
  402. # [00:45] <timeless> ... we want your comments on it before we do a call for implementation
  403. # [00:45] <timeless> rubys: does the new process get rid of LC
  404. # [00:45] <timeless> plh: you could "say it's a LC"
  405. # [00:46] <timeless> ... but you can't call it W3 LC
  406. # [00:46] * hober back in the LC / back in the LC / back in the LCCR!
  407. # [00:46] <timeless> rubys: it gets rid of the step
  408. # [00:46] <timeless> paulc: you move "LC" out of the Title, into the document
  409. # [00:46] <timeless> ... you can always express your intent
  410. # [00:46] <timeless> ... whether people understand that is open for judgement
  411. # [00:46] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  412. # [00:47] <timeless> fantasia: Elika J. Etemad
  413. # [00:47] <timeless> ... XYZ, different sets of features
  414. # [00:47] <timeless> ... we're done w/ algorithm
  415. # [00:47] <timeless> ... we're done w/ the api
  416. # [00:47] <timeless> s|... we're done w/ the api||
  417. # [00:47] <timeless> s|... we're done w/ algorithm||
  418. # [00:47] <timeless> s|... we're done w/ the api||
  419. # [00:47] <timeless> s|... we're done w/ the api||
  420. # [00:47] <timeless> s/|||//
  421. # [00:47] <timeless> ... we're done w/ the api
  422. # [00:47] <timeless> ... we're done w/ algorithm
  423. # [00:47] <timeless> ... i'm hoping we're doing better w/ the spec templates
  424. # [00:48] <timeless> ... so we can communicate
  425. # [00:48] <timeless> ... mostly in the head
  426. # [00:48] <timeless> ... to help you communicate what you're looking for in your reviews
  427. # [00:48] <timeless> ... not just LC, but developing your WD
  428. # [00:48] <timeless> rubys: i understand what paulc was saying
  429. # [00:48] <Zakim> +??P6
  430. # [00:48] <timeless> ... i'll suggest that's a different problem than Canvas
  431. # [00:48] * Joins: Hitoshi_ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
  432. # [00:48] <timeless> ... sounds like it's worth evaluating for Canvas
  433. # [00:48] <timeless> paulc: hypothetical
  434. # [00:49] <timeless> ... i think i've convinced myself i'm neutral on this
  435. # [00:49] <timeless> ... say we develop 10-15 modules
  436. # [00:49] <timeless> ... and decide we need to publish a consolidated document
  437. # [00:49] <timeless> ... would we want to give the community a chance to see that as a LC rather than as CR
  438. # [00:49] <timeless> ... or do we feel confident today that we can choose how to handle the fact
  439. # [00:49] <timeless> ... CSS can make a blanket decision that they'll say small
  440. # [00:49] <timeless> hober: small is not an attitude i've heard of CSS
  441. # [00:50] * Quits: renmin_ (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  442. # [00:50] <timeless> paulc: you'll never do a union of CSS level 4 specs
  443. # [00:50] <timeless> ... i'd opt to do it on a per spec basis
  444. # [00:50] <timeless> ... it doesn't hurt us on a per spec basis
  445. # [00:50] <timeless> ... as soon as we've made the decision a couple of times
  446. # [00:50] <timeless> ... and have some experience
  447. # [00:50] <timeless> ... the WG will tell us
  448. # [00:50] <timeless> plh: you have 2 years
  449. # [00:50] <timeless> ... after 2 years, you'll be forced to the new Process
  450. # [00:51] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  451. # [00:51] <timeless> Josh_Soref: which new Process
  452. # [00:51] <timeless> plh: 2014
  453. # [00:51] <timeless> paulc: when we recharter, or a specific date?
  454. # [00:51] * glazou ahem
  455. # [00:51] <timeless> plh: i believe it's 2 years after approval of Process-2014
  456. # [00:52] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
  457. # [00:52] <timeless> paulc: if they've given us two years, let's try it for Canvas
  458. # [00:52] <timeless> ... put a CfC in front of WG for Canvas, and see what happens
  459. # [00:52] * timeless glazou ?
  460. # [00:52] * glazou re. the small css mentions above
  461. # [00:53] * timeless glazou : hober took offense too
  462. # [00:53] <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call?
  463. # [00:53] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, ??P6
  464. # [00:53] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
  465. # [00:53] <timeless> s/fantasia/fantasai/
  466. # [00:53] <jcraig> ??P6, (SIP caller?) please identify yourself
  467. # [00:54] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  468. # [00:54] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  469. # [00:54] <timeless> fantasai: we're also asking for feedback on the new spec template for all WGs
  470. # [00:54] <timeless> paulc: fantasai please send a request to public-html-admin@
  471. # [00:54] <jgraham> s/fantasia/fantasai
  472. # [00:54] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  473. # [00:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  474. # [00:54] * timeless jgraham: that may fail
  475. # [00:54] * timeless hopes
  476. # [00:55] <jgraham> s/the spec templates/the spec tamplates, particularly reducing boilerplate in status section
  477. # [00:55] <timeless> s| s/fantasia/fantasai||
  478. # [00:55] <timeless> s|s/fantasia/fantasai||
  479. # [00:55] <timeless> s/s|||/
  480. # [00:55] * jcraig rniwa, you are being summoned to #html-wg
  481. # [00:55] <timeless> s|s/fantasia/fantasai||
  482. # [00:55] <jgraham> s/not just LC, but developing your WD/want WGs to experiment with WD process that works for you, not just one-size-fits-all LC process/
  483. # [00:55] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
  484. # [00:55] <Santabarbara> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2014Oct/0115.html
  485. # [00:55] <timeless> topic: allow <link> in body + DOM position as a rendering hint
  486. # [00:56] <jgraham> s/we can communicate/we can communicate better the status of the document, expected timelines, and what kinds of reviews are solicited
  487. # [00:56] <timeless> paulc: there's been active discussion in the last 24 hours on the topic
  488. # [00:56] * xiaoqian current discussion in public-web-perf/whatwg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2014Oct/thread.html#msg115
  489. # [00:56] <timeless> ... i need someone to introduce the topic
  490. # [00:56] * Joins: chunming (chu@public.cloak)
  491. # [00:57] <timeless> ... Context: Baidu made a member submission
  492. # [00:57] <rniwa> q+
  493. # [00:57] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  494. # [00:57] * timeless -> link ??
  495. # [00:57] <timeless> ... at WebPerf WG meeting Mon/Tue
  496. # [00:57] <timeless> ... feedback to them was let's understand your UC, and talk to HTML WG
  497. # [00:57] <timeless> ack rniwa
  498. # [00:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  499. # [00:57] <myakura> http://www.w3.org/Submission/first-screen-paint/
  500. # [00:57] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/Submission/first-screen-paint/
  501. # [00:57] <MarkS> s/jonny diggs/joanie diggs
  502. # [00:57] <timeless> rniwa: i was an observer in that WG
  503. # [00:57] <jgraham> i/XYZ/Purpose of removing LC is to allow WG to break down review requests in more appropriate ways and help to solicit reviews earlier in the process (by not having LC be a fixed point in process where everyone comments)
  504. # [00:57] <timeless> rniwa: in most major browsers
  505. # [00:57] <timeless> ... we have this behavior where
  506. # [00:58] <timeless> ... if you have any pending stylesheets
  507. # [00:58] <timeless> ... we'll block painting of the page
  508. # [00:58] <timeless> ... until a timer fires, or all stylesheets load
  509. # [00:58] * Joins: forty41 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  510. # [00:58] <timeless> ... problem w/ their website, is they want to draw critical part of websites ASAP
  511. # [00:58] <timeless> ... say page is 200k
  512. # [00:58] * Joins: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak)
  513. # [00:58] <timeless> ... loads 4 50k stylesheets
  514. # [00:58] <timeless> ... some aren't critical content
  515. # [00:58] <timeless> ... say parts visible in phone
  516. # [00:58] <timeless> ... we still block until those stylesheets are loaded
  517. # [00:58] <timeless> ... we don't know if they have rules that apply to the top of the page
  518. # [00:59] <timeless> Travis: unstyled, or semi-styled content
  519. # [00:59] <timeless> rniwa: Amazon, you have product description
  520. # [00:59] <timeless> ... then related product
  521. # [00:59] <timeless> s/duct/ducts/
  522. # [00:59] <timeless> ... then comments
  523. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> FOUOSSC!
  524. # [00:59] <timeless> paulc: and if you're going to that page to just see the product price
  525. # [00:59] * Quits: Hitoshi_ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  526. # [00:59] <timeless> ... and you're hoping price is near top of page
  527. # [01:00] <timeless> ... I'll be really careful to ensure people use Q and mic
  528. # [01:00] <timeless> [ angel asks if Baidu is on irc ]
  529. # [01:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  530. # [01:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  531. # [01:00] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  532. # [01:01] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  533. # [01:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, ??P6
  534. # [01:01] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
  535. # [01:01] <timeless> Zakim, ??p6 is Baidu
  536. # [01:01] <Zakim> +Baidu; got it
  537. # [01:01] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  538. # [01:01] * Quits: forty41 (~forty4@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  539. # [01:01] <timeless> rniwa: they want to provide critical parts of the page that's immediately rendered
  540. # [01:01] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  541. # [01:01] <timeless> ... and have the browser paint those parts
  542. # [01:01] <timeless> ... w/o having to manually load the stylesheets via script
  543. # [01:01] <timeless> ... you can work around this behavior
  544. # [01:01] <timeless> ... but it's a big hassle
  545. # [01:01] <timeless> ... have to do that on every single page
  546. # [01:01] <timeless> q+ travis
  547. # [01:01] * Zakim sees travis on the speaker queue
  548. # [01:02] * timeless AC rep of baidu
  549. # [01:02] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  550. # [01:02] * jgraham wonders if this has an analogy to <script async>
  551. # [01:02] <chunming> q?
  552. # [01:02] * Zakim sees travis on the speaker queue
  553. # [01:02] * timeless suspects it does
  554. # [01:03] * rniwa jgraham: yes!
  555. # [01:03] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  556. # [01:03] * timeless rniwa so, only one person in Baidu, or many on this bridge?
  557. # [01:03] * rniwa jgraham: what we want to add is blocking script though…
  558. # [01:03] <timeless> Zakim, Baidu_AC_rep has entered Baidu
  559. # [01:03] <Zakim> +Baidu_AC_rep; got it
  560. # [01:03] * Joins: Hitoshi (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
  561. # [01:03] <timeless> ack tr
  562. # [01:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  563. # [01:03] <timeless> Travis: based on rniwa
  564. # [01:03] <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  565. # [01:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Baidu
  566. # [01:03] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
  567. # [01:03] <Zakim> Baidu has Baidu_AC_rep
  568. # [01:04] <timeless> ... this sounds like defer'd styles, like defer'd scripts
  569. # [01:04] * Joins: html (~html@public.cloak)
  570. # [01:04] <timeless> ... rniwa is nodding his head
  571. # [01:04] * zcorpan jgraham it's more like <script src> in body, not <script async> in body, aiui
  572. # [01:04] <timeless> paulc: something that already exists
  573. # [01:04] <timeless> ... or <style defer> as an analog to <script defer>
  574. # [01:04] <timeless> rniwa: it's very similar to <script defer>/<script async>
  575. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> timeless, Baidu_AC_rep is Yue Min
  576. # [01:05] <timeless> ... but we also need the ability to block the painting of parts
  577. # [01:05] <timeless> ... we don't want to paint related products while the stylesheets are still loading
  578. # [01:05] <zcorpan> q+
  579. # [01:05] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
  580. # [01:05] <timeless> ... baidu wants to add a hint that it blocks painting of content after
  581. # [01:06] <timeless> <script>...</script> <node>
  582. # [01:06] <timeless> <node> isn't inserted until after <script> is parsed
  583. # [01:06] <timeless> Travis: still trying to understand
  584. # [01:06] <timeless> ... you have a dependency graph between <stylesheets> and subtrees in the DOM
  585. # [01:06] <timeless> ... and you wan to tell the subtree that it depends on the stylesheet before it paints
  586. # [01:06] <timeless> q?
  587. # [01:06] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
  588. # [01:06] <timeless> zakim, Baidu_AC_rep is Yue_Min
  589. # [01:06] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Baidu_AC_rep'
  590. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> ack zcorpan
  591. # [01:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  592. # [01:07] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("")
  593. # [01:07] <timeless> zcorpan: currently the spec allows the <style> element if it has scope=
  594. # [01:07] <timeless> Travis: in <body>
  595. # [01:07] <timeless> zcorpan: i don't know what the behavior is
  596. # [01:07] <timeless> ... in theory you could put critical content
  597. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> s/scope=/scoped=
  598. # [01:08] <timeless> ... and then have a <div> w/ <style scoped=> @import () </style> </div>
  599. # [01:08] <timeless> ... not necessarily the best
  600. # [01:08] <timeless> darobin: a bit of a hack
  601. # [01:08] <timeless> paulc: zcorpan proposed a solution
  602. # [01:08] <timeless> ... people nodding their heads, moving their shoulders
  603. # [01:08] <timeless> ... yeah maybe
  604. # [01:08] <timeless> ... worth investigating
  605. # [01:08] <timeless> ... zcorpan is nodding
  606. # [01:08] <timeless> zcorpan: another point
  607. # [01:08] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  608. # [01:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Baidu
  609. # [01:09] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
  610. # [01:09] <Zakim> Baidu has Baidu_AC_rep
  611. # [01:09] <timeless> zcorpan: when you have <style> ... </style>
  612. # [01:09] * Quits: MarkVickers__ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) ("(null)")
  613. # [01:09] * Joins: MarkVickers__ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  614. # [01:09] <timeless> ... it means you have to revaluate the earlier document
  615. # [01:09] <rniwa> q+
  616. # [01:09] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  617. # [01:09] <timeless> ... bad for perf, can cause repainting
  618. # [01:09] <zcorpan> q?
  619. # [01:09] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  620. # [01:09] <timeless> zakim, Yue_Min has entered Baidu
  621. # [01:09] <Zakim> +Yue_Min; got it
  622. # [01:09] <timeless> zakim, Baidu_AC_rep has left Baidu
  623. # [01:09] <Zakim> -Baidu_AC_rep; got it
  624. # [01:09] <timeless> ack rniwa
  625. # [01:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  626. # [01:10] <timeless> rniwa: I think zcorpan 's proposal would be workable
  627. # [01:10] <timeless> ... if everyone implemented it
  628. # [01:10] <timeless> ... i think that solution is better wrt not reevaluating elements outside of that
  629. # [01:10] <timeless> ... the solution in WebPerf has a drawback
  630. # [01:10] * Joins: igarashi (~iga@public.cloak)
  631. # [01:10] <timeless> ... even if the author meant not to affect elements above <style> elements
  632. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> -> http://caniuse.com/#feat=style-scoped Browser support for style[scoped]
  633. # [01:11] <zcorpan> q?
  634. # [01:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  635. # [01:11] <zcorpan> q+
  636. # [01:11] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
  637. # [01:11] <timeless> ... if we did <style scoped=> we have a problem
  638. # [01:11] <jcraig> http://caniuse.com/#feat=style-scoped
  639. # [01:11] <timeless> ... in that Blink and WebKit removed <style scoped=>
  640. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> yes, Firefox is the only browser that supports style[scoped]
  641. # [01:11] <timeless> rniwa: that's the one drawback
  642. # [01:12] <timeless> ... if we use the <link rel=xxx> it would work for everyone
  643. # [01:12] * timeless doesn't udnerstand
  644. # [01:12] <html> q+
  645. # [01:12] * Zakim sees zcorpan, html on the speaker queue
  646. # [01:12] <timeless> ack zcorpan
  647. # [01:12] * Zakim sees html on the speaker queue
  648. # [01:13] <timeless> zcorpan: it's not a blocking problem if the scoped= attribute isn't implemented yet
  649. # [01:13] <timeless> ... if the behavior is what we want
  650. # [01:13] <timeless> ... then it should work ok w/, w/o scoped=
  651. # [01:13] <timeless> ... even if it gets implemented later
  652. # [01:13] <timeless> ... you said my proposal would be acceptable if scoped= was implemented
  653. # [01:13] <timeless> ... i don't see why it needs to be implemented
  654. # [01:13] <timeless> ... the important part is what the behavior is
  655. # [01:13] <timeless> ... right?
  656. # [01:14] <timeless> paulc: i thought you said you could do this w/ <style scoped=>
  657. # [01:14] <timeless> ... we're hearing that's not widely implemented
  658. # [01:14] <timeless> ... is that not what you said
  659. # [01:14] <timeless> ... please clarify
  660. # [01:14] <timeless> rniwa: i'm a bit confused
  661. # [01:14] <timeless> ... it sounds like your solution does include <style scoped=>
  662. # [01:14] <timeless> zcorpan: the proposed spec change is not changing UA requirements
  663. # [01:14] <timeless> ... it's changing authoring requirements
  664. # [01:15] <timeless> ... this is in theory already possible w/ today's authoring requirements in the spec
  665. # [01:15] <timeless> ... assuming the <style> element has the behavior you want in existing browsers
  666. # [01:15] <timeless> [ rniwa nods ]
  667. # [01:15] * timeless barely gets it
  668. # [01:15] <rniwa> q+
  669. # [01:15] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
  670. # [01:16] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  671. # [01:16] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Baidu
  672. # [01:16] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
  673. # [01:16] <Zakim> Baidu has Yue_Min
  674. # [01:16] <zcorpan> q?
  675. # [01:16] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
  676. # [01:16] <timeless> Yue_Min: i'd like to give some background introduction for this proposal
  677. # [01:16] * Quits: MarkVickers__ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  678. # [01:16] <timeless> ... we're the Baidu mobile browser team
  679. # [01:16] <timeless> ... from experience
  680. # [01:16] <timeless> ... by judging the first screen
  681. # [01:16] <timeless> ... displaying th
  682. # [01:16] <xiaoqian> s/Yue_Min/Ping Wu
  683. # [01:16] <timeless> ... if this content can be shown quickly
  684. # [01:17] <timeless> ... then user will think browser is very fast
  685. # [01:17] <timeless> ... and will spend time reading
  686. # [01:17] <timeless> ... and we propose this tag in the <head> tag
  687. # [01:17] <xiaoqian> s/Ping Wu/Ping_Wu
  688. # [01:17] <timeless> ... it's not about layout speed
  689. # [01:17] <timeless> ... it's first content speed
  690. # [01:17] <timeless> ... this UX optimization
  691. # [01:17] <timeless> ... may have some effect to overall loading page speed
  692. # [01:17] <timeless> ... we think it isn't very important to UX
  693. # [01:17] <timeless> ... that's the background to this proposal
  694. # [01:18] <timeless> ... some colleagues from WebPerf introduced this
  695. # [01:18] <timeless> ... critical-section
  696. # [01:18] <timeless> ... we want to emphasize
  697. # [01:18] <timeless> ... it's "above-the-fold" first screen
  698. # [01:18] <timeless> ... in the first edition of this proposal
  699. # [01:18] * rniwa points out that the speaker was talking about http://www.w3.org/Submission/first-screen-paint/
  700. # [01:18] <timeless> ... we wanted to make the develop
  701. # [01:18] <timeless> ... give a link
  702. # [01:18] <timeless> ... a <div> w/ first screen paint
  703. # [01:18] <timeless> ... but it may have some
  704. # [01:19] <timeless> ... due to different devices/orientation
  705. # [01:19] * Joins: taku (~taku@public.cloak)
  706. # [01:19] <timeless> ... this kind of solution may be hard
  707. # [01:19] <timeless> ... also browsers can judge whether their layout size has reached this critical part
  708. # [01:19] <timeless> ... at the same time
  709. # [01:19] <timeless> ... some colleagues have mentioned that
  710. # [01:19] <timeless> ... in the paint phase
  711. # [01:19] <timeless> ... we're waiting for CSS/JS resources
  712. # [01:19] <timeless> ... no matter if these are blocking or not
  713. # [01:19] <timeless> ... we will try to wait until the first paint
  714. # [01:20] <timeless> ... we will try to change the original browser implementation
  715. # [01:20] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  716. # [01:20] <timeless> ... pass-layout-pass-layout
  717. # [01:20] <timeless> ... until we detect that we've reached the full screen
  718. # [01:20] <timeless> ... of first paint
  719. # [01:20] <jamesx> should be parse - layout - parse - layout
  720. # [01:20] <timeless> ... before the first paint, we wait for downloading/non-blocking css
  721. # [01:20] <rniwa> q?
  722. # [01:20] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
  723. # [01:20] <timeless> ... background and implementation and introduction
  724. # [01:20] <timeless> s/pass-/parse-/
  725. # [01:20] <jcraig> s/pass-layout-pass-layout/parse-layout-parse-layout/
  726. # [01:20] <timeless> s/pass-/parse-/
  727. # [01:21] <timeless> s|s/pass-layout-pass-layout/parse-layout-parse-layout/||
  728. # [01:21] * timeless sorry jcraig :)
  729. # [01:21] * jcraig np
  730. # [01:21] <timeless> [ Project First Screen Paint in Advance ]
  731. # [01:21] <timeless> rniwa: first, we wait for stylesheets to load
  732. # [01:21] <timeless> ... also have a timer
  733. # [01:21] <timeless> ... basically a switch to turn this off
  734. # [01:21] <timeless> ... i don't want to repeat the conversation from WebPerf
  735. # [01:21] <timeless> ... so i'll be brief
  736. # [01:21] <timeless> ... we talked to people in Perf group
  737. # [01:22] <timeless> ... if we gave that switch to web developers
  738. # [01:22] <timeless> ... we'll spend a lot of cpu time repainting content
  739. # [01:22] <timeless> paulc: until timer goes out or stylesheets load
  740. # [01:22] <timeless> rniwa: right
  741. # [01:22] <timeless> ... terrible
  742. # [01:22] <timeless> ... this is why WebPerf suggested link element
  743. # [01:22] <timeless> ... and letting browser paint content above it
  744. # [01:22] <timeless> q?
  745. # [01:22] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
  746. # [01:22] <zcorpan> q?
  747. # [01:22] <MikeSmith> q?
  748. # [01:22] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
  749. # [01:22] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
  750. # [01:22] <timeless> q=
  751. # [01:22] * Zakim timeless, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
  752. # [01:23] <timeless> s/q=//
  753. # [01:23] <timeless> q- html
  754. # [01:23] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  755. # [01:23] <timeless> q- rniwa
  756. # [01:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  757. # [01:23] <jcraig> ack html
  758. # [01:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  759. # [01:23] <timeless> jcraig: to clarify
  760. # [01:23] <timeless> ... before you (rniwa) were talking about arbitrary subtrees
  761. # [01:23] <timeless> ... but w/ <link> you're talking about a specific point in the source
  762. # [01:23] <timeless> ... but which is the requirement
  763. # [01:23] <timeless> ... independent subtrees
  764. # [01:23] <timeless> ... or just this much source to here?
  765. # [01:24] <timeless> rniwa: i don't know
  766. # [01:24] <timeless> ... in terms of REQs and UCs
  767. # [01:24] <hober> s/jcraig/jgraham/
  768. # [01:24] <timeless> ... people in other browsers said per sub tree is very hard
  769. # [01:24] <timeless> ... binary bit is easier
  770. # [01:24] <timeless> paulc: member submission implies above the fold
  771. # [01:24] <timeless> ... not multiple subtrees
  772. # [01:24] <timeless> rniwa: right
  773. # [01:25] <timeless> jgraham: that's fine, it sounds like it's a different solution to zcorpan 's previous discussion
  774. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> the problem / use-case is what paul described
  775. # [01:25] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
  776. # [01:25] <timeless> ... sounds like it'd be useful to have clear understanding of UCs
  777. # [01:25] <timeless> ... slightly concerned w/ how to know where the fold is
  778. # [01:25] <timeless> Travis: +1 to that
  779. # [01:25] <timeless> ... putting a marker in HTML source code has little/no bearing at all on where that content will be positioned
  780. # [01:25] <timeless> ... UA.css, user.css, page css
  781. # [01:26] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
  782. # [01:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  783. # [01:26] <timeless> ... hard to identified the fold
  784. # [01:26] <timeless> ... w/o knowing the UCs
  785. # [01:26] <timeless> ... on/off for painting, maybe it could work
  786. # [01:26] <timeless> ... seems tricky
  787. # [01:26] <timeless> jgraham: seems like it'll work well on specific screen sizes, and like rubbish elsewhere
  788. # [01:26] <timeless> q?
  789. # [01:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  790. # [01:26] * Quits: Hitoshi (~Hitoshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  791. # [01:26] <timeless> rniwa: the reason we came up w/ this solution is MS mentioned Amazon already does this
  792. # [01:26] <zcorpan> q+
  793. # [01:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, zcorpan on the speaker queue
  794. # [01:26] <timeless> ... send first part
  795. # [01:26] <timeless> ... then later fetches the rest of the content
  796. # [01:27] <timeless> ... first paint, fetch, second paint
  797. # [01:27] <plh> q+
  798. # [01:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, zcorpan, plh on the speaker queue
  799. # [01:27] <timeless> paulc: so they've adapted their page construction to the way browsers work
  800. # [01:27] <timeless> ... if browsers change
  801. # [01:27] <timeless> ... they have a this-is-where-the-fold should be
  802. # [01:27] <timeless> jgraham: i think facebook is similar
  803. # [01:27] <timeless> ... i remember reading a blog post
  804. # [01:27] <timeless> ... i imagine they download the initial stuff
  805. # [01:27] <timeless> ... paint that
  806. # [01:28] <timeless> ... download and start inserting the gaps
  807. # [01:28] <timeless> ... could be anywhere
  808. # [01:28] <zcorpan> q?
  809. # [01:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, zcorpan, plh on the speaker queue
  810. # [01:28] <timeless> paulc: angel, ask them if they have other questions
  811. # [01:28] <timeless> ... sounds like feedback was that <meta> wasn't very useful
  812. # [01:28] <timeless> ... maybe using a <link rel=> element
  813. # [01:28] <timeless> ... sounds like we really want a clear understanding of the UC
  814. # [01:29] <timeless> ... to make sure we don't end up solving something that isn't exactly what baidu wants
  815. # [01:29] <timeless> [ nods ]
  816. # [01:29] <timeless> paulc: as cochair
  817. # [01:29] <timeless> ... having more and more dialog about the UCs
  818. # [01:29] <timeless> ... is the best first step here
  819. # [01:29] <timeless> q+ to ask if we couldn't survey Amazon and Facebook (and Gmail/Gmaps) about this
  820. # [01:29] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, zcorpan, plh, timeless on the speaker queue
  821. # [01:29] <timeless> paulc: things should be measured against specific UC
  822. # [01:29] <timeless> ... first reaction was you could end up repainting the page over and over again
  823. # [01:29] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
  824. # [01:29] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
  825. # [01:29] * Zakim sees zcorpan, plh, timeless on the speaker queue
  826. # [01:30] <timeless> MikeSmith: as far as i understand
  827. # [01:30] <timeless> ... the problem case
  828. # [01:30] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  829. # [01:30] <timeless> ... it's simply about the initial page load
  830. # [01:30] <timeless> ... not anything beyond that
  831. # [01:30] <timeless> ... first view-port chunk
  832. # [01:30] <timeless> ... to make that load
  833. # [01:30] <timeless> ... faster
  834. # [01:30] <timeless> ... to have the user experience "page" load faster
  835. # [01:30] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  836. # [01:30] <timeless> paulc: people measure effectiveness of your mobile browser of how your first viewport is painted, the Business case?
  837. # [01:31] <timeless> MikeSmith: the problem you want to solve
  838. # [01:31] <timeless> ... if people aren't going to your site, browser doesn't show your content, people give up/go away
  839. # [01:31] <timeless> ... point to make here
  840. # [01:31] <timeless> ... effect of this on HTML spec
  841. # [01:31] <html> q+
  842. # [01:31] * Zakim sees zcorpan, plh, timeless, html on the speaker queue
  843. # [01:31] <timeless> ... don't have to define the behavior
  844. # [01:31] <timeless> ... i think it could be done in WebPerf
  845. # [01:31] <timeless> ... for HTML WG, we could
  846. # [01:31] * Joins: renmin_ (~renmin@public.cloak)
  847. # [01:31] <timeless> ... have some discussion about the right markup
  848. # [01:31] <timeless> ... but in the end, probably
  849. # [01:32] <timeless> ... say we go w/ this <link rel=...>
  850. # [01:32] <jgraham> q+
  851. # [01:32] * Zakim sees zcorpan, plh, timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
  852. # [01:32] <timeless> ... <link rel=firstpaint>
  853. # [01:32] <timeless> ... we make a minor change to specification for link element
  854. # [01:32] <timeless> ... say that it could appear anywhere in the document
  855. # [01:32] <timeless> ... right now, we say it has to be in the <head>
  856. # [01:32] <timeless> ... microdata says it can be in the body
  857. # [01:32] <timeless> ... RDFa says it can be in the body
  858. # [01:32] <timeless> Zakim, close the queue
  859. # [01:32] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is closed
  860. # [01:32] <timeless> ... that's all we'd have to do in the HTML spec
  861. # [01:33] <html> q+
  862. # [01:33] * Zakim whispers to html that the speaker queue has been closed
  863. # [01:33] <timeless> zcorpan: rel=firstpaint wouldn't have a good backcompat story
  864. # [01:33] <timeless> ... rel=stylesheet would
  865. # [01:33] <timeless> ... if we think scoped= stylesheets is what we want to restrict authors to doing
  866. # [01:33] <timeless> ... then we could add scoped= to linked
  867. # [01:33] <timeless> q?
  868. # [01:33] * Zakim sees zcorpan, plh, timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
  869. # [01:33] <timeless> ack zcorpan
  870. # [01:33] * Zakim sees plh, timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
  871. # [01:33] <timeless> ack plh
  872. # [01:33] * Zakim sees timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
  873. # [01:33] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  874. # [01:34] <timeless> plh: the UC is all about above-the-fold
  875. # [01:34] <hober> <link rel=stylesheet scoped href=...>
  876. # [01:34] <timeless> ... how long it takes for the user to see something
  877. # [01:34] <timeless> ... browsers have techniques to avoid flash
  878. # [01:34] <timeless> ... browsers want to paint as fast, but not flash
  879. # [01:34] <timeless> ... different techniques
  880. # [01:34] <timeless> ... iirc IE if you wait 200ms and cpu doesn't do anything, it starts painting
  881. # [01:34] <timeless> ... another is to put </html>
  882. # [01:34] <timeless> ... when the browser sees that, it starts painting
  883. # [01:34] <timeless> ... and continues parsing
  884. # [01:35] <timeless> ... this is all ugly, can we find something else that allows you to do that
  885. # [01:35] <timeless> ... <link rel=stylesheet> works in some browser already
  886. # [01:35] <timeless> ... not specified, but it works
  887. # [01:35] <timeless> q?
  888. # [01:35] * Zakim sees timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
  889. # [01:35] <timeless> ack me
  890. # [01:35] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask if we couldn't survey Amazon and Facebook (and Gmail/Gmaps) about this
  891. # [01:35] * Zakim sees html, jgraham on the speaker queue
  892. # [01:35] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  893. # [01:35] <timeless> paulc: seems like a good question
  894. # [01:36] <timeless> jgraham: yes
  895. # [01:36] <timeless> ... there's work going on for a script dependency for html
  896. # [01:36] <timeless> ... Hixie 's working on it w/ TC39
  897. # [01:36] <timeless> ... seems related script-loading/style-loading
  898. # [01:36] <timeless> ... perhaps we shouldn't punt off to WebPerf
  899. # [01:36] <darobin> for reference: https://whatwg.github.io/loader/
  900. # [01:36] <timeless> ... it should be like other things in the platform
  901. # [01:36] <timeless> q?
  902. # [01:36] * Zakim sees html, jgraham on the speaker queue
  903. # [01:36] <timeless> ack jgraham
  904. # [01:36] * Zakim sees html on the speaker queue
  905. # [01:36] <timeless> ack html
  906. # [01:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  907. # [01:37] <timeless> MMM: some people have mentioned we have wasted a lot of time
  908. # [01:37] <timeless> ... we've only
  909. # [01:37] <timeless> ... when we reach layout to the full screensize, we ...
  910. # [01:37] <timeless> ... people have mentioned
  911. # [01:37] <timeless> ... to avoid flash
  912. # [01:37] <timeless> ... let's BBB
  913. # [01:37] <timeless> ... crack
  914. # [01:37] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  915. # [01:37] <timeless> ... this way, we may not crack result
  916. # [01:37] <Zefa_> s/WWW/Wu Ping
  917. # [01:38] <timeless> ... during parsing
  918. # [01:38] <jcraig> s/crack/correct/
  919. # [01:38] <timeless> s/MMM/Wu_Ping/
  920. # [01:38] <timeless> ... 400,000
  921. # [01:38] <jcraig> s/crack/correct/
  922. # [01:38] <timeless> ... tokens
  923. # [01:38] <timeless> ... we may still see incorrect results
  924. # [01:38] <timeless> ... we want a way for developers to direct to the browser
  925. # [01:38] <timeless> ... if you have many dynamic resources
  926. # [01:38] <timeless> ... first-screen-content
  927. # [01:38] <timeless> ... you may tell the browser you don't want this optimization
  928. # [01:39] * Quits: song_ (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  929. # [01:39] <timeless> ... also mentioned Facebook may have similar techniques
  930. # [01:39] <timeless> ... i don't know if i remember correctly
  931. # [01:39] <timeless> ... sending first page content first
  932. # [01:39] <timeless> ... this kind of thing could help
  933. # [01:39] <timeless> ... but it requires a reorganization of the page
  934. # [01:39] <timeless> ... in the optimization case, the browser can do it itself
  935. # [01:39] <timeless> ... we also have UCs, like Data and Snapshot of high-speed-camera
  936. # [01:40] <timeless> ... which captures displaying video of firstscreen content
  937. # [01:40] <rniwa> q?
  938. # [01:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  939. # [01:40] <timeless> ... optimization can tell painting time from 2000ms to 1000ms
  940. # [01:40] <timeless> ... most mobile site pages can now be restricted to 1s
  941. # [01:40] <timeless> ... under this kind of optimization
  942. # [01:40] <timeless> Zakim, open the queue
  943. # [01:40] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
  944. # [01:40] <timeless> paulc: we had a discussion in WebPerf
  945. # [01:41] <timeless> ... we've exposed the problem to people around the table here
  946. # [01:41] <timeless> ... heard some solutions
  947. # [01:41] <timeless> ... maybe not all discussed in WebPerf/whatwg
  948. # [01:41] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  949. # [01:41] <timeless> ... maybe what we require is a super-general solution
  950. # [01:41] <timeless> ... relation of html page to script
  951. # [01:41] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  952. # [01:41] <timeless> ... i don't know what to tell Baidu about where the next discussion
  953. # [01:41] <timeless> ... by default, it's going on in WebPerf
  954. # [01:41] <timeless> ... plh, you're the staff contact for WebPerf?
  955. # [01:41] <timeless> plh: yes
  956. # [01:42] <timeless> paulc: i'll put the ball in your court
  957. # [01:42] <timeless> ... we have a UC, maybe it needs to be described in more detail
  958. # [01:42] <timeless> ... maybe discuss isolated, or very powerful solution
  959. # [01:42] <timeless> ... maybe some of us here, could put it on in WebPerf, i think the thread is copied to whatwg
  960. # [01:42] <timeless> ... then that's where the discussion should continue
  961. # [01:42] <timeless> plh: i think there's an action in WebPerf
  962. # [01:43] <timeless> ... maybe we discussed how to move forward
  963. # [01:43] * Quits: AndChat|531456 (~AndChat531456@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  964. # [01:43] <timeless> rniwa: paulc's/jgraham's points on UCs
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  967. # [01:43] <timeless> ... their UCs are tied to their solution
  968. # [01:43] <timeless> ... i think we need User Scenarios
  969. # [01:43] <timeless> ... maybe we need UCs from other vendors
  970. # [01:43] <timeless> ... Facebook/Gmail/Amazon/...
  971. # [01:43] <timeless> ... and work forward in Web Perf
  972. # [01:44] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  973. # [01:44] <timeless> paulc: 5:45pm; we meet again tomorrow morning @ 8:30am
  974. # [01:44] <timeless> ... to meet on EME
  975. # [01:44] <plh> s/maybe we discussed/we'll discuss/
  976. # [01:44] <timeless> ... I predict we'll adjourn at Coffee in the afternoon
  977. # [01:44] <timeless> ... i think that's a pretty strong indication from the agenda
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  980. # [01:44] <timeless> ... thanks everyone
  981. # [01:44] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
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  983. # [01:44] <Zakim> -Santabarbara
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  985. # [01:45] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  986. # [01:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  987. # [01:45] <Zakim> -Baidu
  988. # [01:45] <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:30AM has ended
  989. # [01:45] <Zakim> Attendees were rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith, darobin, benjamp, Baidu, Baidu_AC_rep, Yue_Min
  990. # [01:45] <timeless> s/?P6, (SIP caller?) please identify yourself//
  991. # [01:45] <timeless> s/s|||//
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  993. # [01:45] <timeless> s/s|||//
  994. # [01:45] <timeless> s|s///||
  995. # [01:46] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  996. # [01:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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  1002. # [01:46] <timeless> s|s///||
  1003. # [01:46] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1004. # [01:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1005. # [01:47] <timeless> s/s|||//
  1006. # [01:47] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1007. # [01:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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  1155. # [16:35] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
  1156. # [16:35] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
  1157. # [16:35] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  1158. # [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  1159. # [16:35] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  1160. # [16:35] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
  1161. # [16:35] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()11:30AM already started
  1162. # [16:35] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  1163. # [16:35] <trackbot> Date: 31 October 2014
  1164. # [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1165. # [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1166. # [16:35] * Joins: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak)
  1167. # [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
  1168. # [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
  1169. # [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1170. # [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1171. # [16:35] * Joins: markw (~markw@public.cloak)
  1172. # [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, logs span midnight
  1173. # [16:35] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'logs span midnight', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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  1175. # [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, meeting span midnight
  1176. # [16:35] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'meeting span midnight', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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  1179. # [16:36] <timeless> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
  1180. # [16:36] <RRSAgent> ok, timeless; I will not start a new log at midnight
  1181. # [16:36] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1182. # [16:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1183. # [16:36] <paulc> EME outstanding bugs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0101.html
  1184. # [16:36] <timeless> topic: EME Bugs
  1185. # [16:36] <timeless> s/topic: EME Bugs//
  1186. # [16:36] <timeless> i/EME/topic: EME Bugs/
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  1189. # [16:38] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  1190. # [16:38] <Zakim> On the phone I see BobLund
  1191. # [16:38] <timeless> Zakim, call Santabarbara
  1192. # [16:38] <Zakim> ok, timeless; the call is being made
  1193. # [16:38] <Zakim> +Santabarbara
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  1195. # [16:38] <timeless> Zakim, Santabarbara contains paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele
  1196. # [16:38] <Zakim> +paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele; got it
  1197. # [16:38] <timeless> Zakim, darobin has entered Santabarbara
  1198. # [16:38] <Zakim> +darobin; got it
  1199. # [16:39] <timeless> paulc: good morning darobin
  1200. # [16:39] <timeless> topic: Introductions
  1201. # [16:39] <timeless> paulc: i'll carry the mic around the room
  1202. # [16:39] <timeless> ... and we'll introduce new faces
  1203. # [16:39] <timeless> adrianba: adrian bateman, microsoft
  1204. # [16:39] * Joins: k_takabayashi (~k_takabayashi@public.cloak)
  1205. # [16:39] * Joins: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak)
  1206. # [16:39] <timeless> paulc: paul cotton, cochair
  1207. # [16:39] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
  1208. # [16:40] <timeless> rubys: Sam Ruby, cochair
  1209. # [16:40] <ddorwin> present+ David_Dorwin
  1210. # [16:40] <timeless> joesteele: Joe Steele, Adobe
  1211. # [16:40] <timeless> AAA: aaa
  1212. # [16:40] <BillHofmann> present+ Bill Hofmann
  1213. # [16:40] * Joins: pal (~pal@public.cloak)
  1214. # [16:40] <timeless> s/AAA/jdsmith/
  1215. # [16:40] <timeless> MikeSmith: Mike Smith, W3C
  1216. # [16:41] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1217. # [16:41] * Joins: jdsmith (~jdsmith@public.cloak)
  1218. # [16:41] * Joins: tomoyuki (~Tomoyuki@public.cloak)
  1219. # [16:41] <timeless> [ Scribe did not transcribe the room, sorry ]
  1220. # [16:41] <timeless> s/Bill Hofmann/Bill_Hofmann/
  1221. # [16:41] <timeless> Topic: Agenda for Friday
  1222. # [16:41] <timeless> s/Topic: Agenda for Friday//
  1223. # [16:41] <hober> Present+ hober
  1224. # [16:41] <timeless> paulc: it'd help if people marked themselves as present
  1225. # [16:41] <markw> present+ Mark Watson
  1226. # [16:41] <BobLund> Present+
  1227. # [16:41] <igarashi> present+ igarashi
  1228. # [16:41] * timeless present+ First_Last
  1229. # [16:41] * Joins: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak)
  1230. # [16:42] <timeless> s/Mark Watson/Mark_Watson/
  1231. # [16:42] <rubys> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda
  1232. # [16:42] <timeless> Topic: Agenda for Friday
  1233. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
  1234. # [16:42] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  1235. # [16:42] * Joins: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak)
  1236. # [16:42] * Joins: yosuke (yfunahas@public.cloak)
  1237. # [16:42] <k_takabayashi> present+ k_takabayashi
  1238. # [16:42] * yosuke present+ yosuke
  1239. # [16:42] <edoyle> present+ Erika_Navara
  1240. # [16:43] <igarashi> present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
  1241. # [16:43] <timeless> BobLund: this is Bob Lund, from Cable Labs
  1242. # [16:43] * Joins: yinagaki (~yinagaki@public.cloak)
  1243. # [16:43] <timeless> s/Topic: Agenda for Friday//
  1244. # [16:44] <timeless> paulc: please be aggressive in q+'ing
  1245. # [16:44] <timeless> Topic: Agenda for Friday
  1246. # [16:44] <timeless> s/Topic: Agenda for Friday//
  1247. # [16:44] <timeless> i/2014/Topic: Agenda for Friday/
  1248. # [16:44] <timeless> paulc: Morning is for Media TF
  1249. # [16:44] <timeless> ... this morning, i broke it up into three parts
  1250. # [16:44] <timeless> ... i suggest we attack ~25 open bugs
  1251. # [16:45] <timeless> ... i had a request from MarkVickers to time-anchor the discussion for bug-26332
  1252. # [16:45] <timeless> ... MarkVickers, you said you'd have someone call in for that
  1253. # [16:45] <timeless> MarkVickers: correct, he may call in earlier, but i said then to him
  1254. # [16:45] <timeless> paulc: Coffee break 10:30-11
  1255. # [16:45] <timeless> ... 12:30, acolwell will call in on MSE
  1256. # [16:45] <timeless> ... Lunch 1-2:00pm
  1257. # [16:45] <timeless> ... then darobin will give us an update on DOM4
  1258. # [16:46] <timeless> ... link is for test results
  1259. # [16:46] <timeless> ... we had a CfC to get to PR, and got a formal objection
  1260. # [16:46] <timeless> ... we're working on interop
  1261. # [16:46] * Joins: plinss (~plinss@public.cloak)
  1262. # [16:46] <timeless> ... expected last session is to trawl through the Extension specs 3-3:30
  1263. # [16:46] <timeless> ... and yesterday, i predicted we'd break at Coffee
  1264. # [16:46] * Joins: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  1265. # [16:46] <timeless> ... a shown of hands yesterday showed one of the principle people is ddorwin at 1pm
  1266. # [16:47] <timeless> ... thus Media before 1pm
  1267. # [16:47] * plinss rrsagent, pointer?
  1268. # [16:47] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T15-46-57
  1269. # [16:47] <timeless> s/people/people we are losing/
  1270. # [16:47] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1271. # [16:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1272. # [16:47] * Quits: Santabarbara (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1273. # [16:47] <paulc> EME bugs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0101.html
  1274. # [16:47] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
  1275. # [16:48] * Joins: rubys1 (~rubys@public.cloak)
  1276. # [16:48] <glenn> Present+ Glenn Adams
  1277. # [16:48] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
  1278. # [16:48] * rubys1 is now known as Santabarbara
  1279. # [16:48] <timeless> s/Glenn Adams/Glenn_Adams/
  1280. # [16:48] <paulc> EME bugs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0101.html
  1281. # [16:48] <timeless> i/EME/Topic: EME Bugs
  1282. # [16:48] <plinss> Present+ Peter_Linss
  1283. # [16:48] <timeless> paulc: i sent an email on Oct 19
  1284. # [16:48] <timeless> ... each of the lines in this list is from Oct 19
  1285. # [16:48] <timeless> ... 10 days later, I updated the status
  1286. # [16:49] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1287. # [16:49] <timeless> ... no-action may no longer be correct
  1288. # [16:49] <timeless> ... if someone did something after i sent this out
  1289. # [16:49] <timeless> ... my proposal is
  1290. # [16:49] <timeless> ... these are the outstanding bugs up to ... 19
  1291. # [16:49] <timeless> ... then there is a series of bugs filed after Oct 14
  1292. # [16:49] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
  1293. # [16:49] <timeless> ... then another range 24..29 filed after my Oct 19 email
  1294. # [16:49] <timeless> ... suggest we start at the top
  1295. # [16:50] <timeless> ... obviously, because of the time element, if we get to that one, i'll skip it
  1296. # [16:50] <timeless> ... we have 1 1/2, 1, 1 1/2
  1297. # [16:50] <timeless> ... 200-300 mins, 30 bugs, ~7 mins/bug
  1298. # [16:50] <timeless> ... some prep CR/LC, we'll skip
  1299. # [16:50] * Joins: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak)
  1300. # [16:50] <timeless> ... some are more recent which we want to get to since we've never had substantial discussion
  1301. # [16:50] <timeless> ... i'll try to go broad rather than deep
  1302. # [16:51] * Joins: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
  1303. # [16:51] <timeless> ... anyone w/ other suggestions?
  1304. # [16:51] <timeless> [ None ]
  1305. # [16:51] * Joins: jeff_ (jeff@public.cloak)
  1306. # [16:51] <timeless> paulc: because we have BobLund on the phone, we'll pass the mic around
  1307. # [16:51] <timeless> ... please use the q
  1308. # [16:51] <timeless> ddorwin: we have TAG reps here
  1309. # [16:51] <timeless> paulc: how long are TAG reps here for?
  1310. # [16:51] <timeless> XXX: here to 11am
  1311. # [16:51] <timeless> XXY: same constraint
  1312. # [16:52] <timeless> paulc: well, we could switch to those bugs right away
  1313. # [16:52] <timeless> ... lower down on the list, but newer
  1314. # [16:52] <timeless> ... ok if we did that?
  1315. # [16:52] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1316. # [16:52] <timeless> ddorwin: yeah
  1317. # [16:52] <timeless> paulc: ok, let's do that
  1318. # [16:52] <plinss> s/XXX/plinss/
  1319. # [16:52] <timeless> [ Projected bugs 20-24 ]
  1320. # [16:52] <plinss> s/XXY/slightlyoff/
  1321. # [16:53] <timeless> paulc: three initial bugs from TAG: See 27053, 27054 and 27055 below.
  1322. # [16:53] <timeless> ... and then two additional spun out
  1323. # [16:53] <timeless> Topic: Bug 27053 - Platform Segmentation
  1324. # [16:53] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1325. # [16:53] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27053
  1326. # [16:53] <timeless> paulc: I asked for clarification on this bug filed by the TAG but so far none has been supplied. We will review the state of this bug at the F2F meeting.
  1327. # [16:53] <timeless> ... could a TAG rep present this?
  1328. # [16:54] <timeless> ddorwin: trying to find Dominic
  1329. # [16:54] * Joins: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak)
  1330. # [16:54] <timeless> paulc: ok, he's not here, we'll go back to the list from the top
  1331. # [16:54] <Cyril> RRSAgent, pointer
  1332. # [16:54] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T15-54-40
  1333. # [16:54] <timeless> Topic: Bug 25923 - The mechanism for checking key system support should be asynchronous
  1334. # [16:54] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25923#c42
  1335. # [16:54] <timeless> paulc: David is working is on the open issues and will request feedback when he makes more progress.
  1336. # [16:55] <timeless> ddorwin: i updated the basic structure
  1337. # [16:55] <timeless> ... there's a Dictionary w/ some structure
  1338. # [16:55] <timeless> ... plan is to modify it, compare two shapes of the dictionary in the bug
  1339. # [16:55] <timeless> ... the bug just has the list of open issues
  1340. # [16:55] <timeless> paulc: are you looking for input?
  1341. # [16:55] <timeless> ddorwin: i need to redesign the Dictionary and get feedback
  1342. # [16:56] <timeless> ... but we completely changed how we create media keys
  1343. # [16:56] * Quits: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1344. # [16:56] <timeless> ... we call requestMediaSystemAccess()
  1345. # [16:56] <timeless> ... which gives you a MediaSystemAccess object
  1346. # [16:56] <timeless> ... and you ask it for keys
  1347. # [16:56] <timeless> paulc: a lot of these ddorwin assigned to you
  1348. # [16:56] <timeless> ... you can reject the request
  1349. # [16:56] <timeless> ... can we get an ETA/ordering?
  1350. # [16:56] <timeless> ddorwin: technical spec writing one, top (high priority)
  1351. # [16:56] <timeless> paulc: anyone have feedback to editor?
  1352. # [16:56] <timeless> [ None ]
  1353. # [16:56] <timeless> paulc: next
  1354. # [16:57] <ddorwin> Current state: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#obtaining-access-to-key-systems
  1355. # [16:57] <timeless> topic: Bug 25966 - Use ArrayBufferView and ArrayBuffer instead of Uint8Array in APIs
  1356. # [16:57] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25966
  1357. # [16:57] <timeless> paulc: This bug is editorial and David is awaiting IDL feedback due to a possible bug in IDL spec.
  1358. # [16:57] <timeless> paulc: Oct 29 status: RESOLVED FIXED. See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25966#c5
  1359. # [16:57] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1360. # [16:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1361. # [16:57] <Zakim> +Domenic
  1362. # [16:57] * Joins: Domenic (~sid10976@public.cloak)
  1363. # [16:57] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
  1364. # [16:57] * Joins: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
  1365. # [16:57] <timeless> s/Dominic/Domenic/
  1366. # [16:58] <timeless> paulc: Domenic do you want to introduce yourself
  1367. # [16:58] <timeless> Domenic: Domenic XXW, W3 TAG
  1368. # [16:58] <timeless> ... not @TPAC
  1369. # [16:58] <timeless> paulc: introduce yourself/schedule
  1370. # [16:58] <timeless> Domenic: mostly free this morning
  1371. # [16:58] <timeless> ... i realize i threw a lot of work at you guys, so i'm available
  1372. # [16:58] <timeless> paulc: we were waiting for you to arrive
  1373. # [16:58] <timeless> ... we'll finish the one bug, and then switch back to the TAG bugs
  1374. # [16:59] <timeless> paulc: so this bug is done
  1375. # [16:59] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1376. # [16:59] <timeless> i/do you want to introduce/Topic: Domenic joins the bridge/
  1377. # [16:59] <timeless> Topic: Bug 27053 - Platform Segmentation
  1378. # [16:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1379. # [16:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1380. # [16:59] <timeless> paulc: i asked for clarifications
  1381. # [17:00] <timeless> ... clarifications are at a minimum in Comment 2, and comment 7
  1382. # [17:00] <timeless> ... but could you introduce this bug briefly for us
  1383. # [17:00] <timeless> ... and then general discussion
  1384. # [17:00] <timeless> Domenic: this bug came out of concerns from tbl
  1385. # [17:00] <timeless> ... we have a high standard of Web APIs and how they work
  1386. # [17:00] <timeless> ... how open they are to the web
  1387. # [17:00] <timeless> ... a lot of parties involved w/ DRM
  1388. # [17:00] <timeless> ... through open standards/standardization
  1389. # [17:00] <timeless> ... we want to allow independent content providers to be able to use EME
  1390. # [17:00] <timeless> ... new browser vendors of course
  1391. # [17:01] <timeless> ... you should be able to create new browsers from the spec and support EME
  1392. # [17:01] <timeless> ... but Desktop and Mobile browsers
  1393. # [17:01] * Joins: khoya (~khoya@public.cloak)
  1394. # [17:01] <timeless> ... and new EME key implementers should be able to join the ecosystem
  1395. # [17:01] * Joins: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak)
  1396. # [17:01] <timeless> ... not just standardizing WyPlay, Adobe, or MSPlay
  1397. # [17:01] <timeless> ... but others should be able to join
  1398. # [17:01] <timeless> ... content providers/developers should be able to implement code that supports content from multiple systems
  1399. # [17:02] <timeless> ... developers / content providers shouldn't have to special case that
  1400. # [17:02] <timeless> ... concerns from tbl
  1401. # [17:02] <timeless> ... that we were standardizing the needs for specific companies
  1402. # [17:02] * timeless joesteele : can you fix WyPlay/...
  1403. # [17:02] <timeless> paulc: response from EME/Media TF?
  1404. # [17:02] <joesteele> q+
  1405. # [17:02] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  1406. # [17:02] * Joins: taku (~taku@public.cloak)
  1407. # [17:03] * Joins: igarashi_ (~igarashi@public.cloak)
  1408. # [17:03] <timeless> ... i noticed Sergey Konstantinov declined to give proposed change
  1409. # [17:03] <timeless> ack joesteele
  1410. # [17:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1411. # [17:03] <timeless> joesteele: i have a clarifying question
  1412. # [17:03] * timeless ddorwin can you fix WyPlay/... ?
  1413. # [17:03] <timeless> ... seems to be standardizing a protocol
  1414. # [17:03] <timeless> ... so servers can implement on backend
  1415. # [17:03] <ddorwin> s/WyPlay/Widevine/
  1416. # [17:03] * Joins: Ruinan (~Ruinan@public.cloak)
  1417. # [17:03] <timeless> Domenic: seems like that's the most important part of achieving the objectives
  1418. # [17:04] <timeless> ... but i agree with your assessment
  1419. # [17:04] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
  1420. # [17:04] <timeless> joesteele: Adobe wouldn't have a problem implementing such a protocol
  1421. # [17:04] <timeless> ... but there's another party who isn't in the room
  1422. # [17:04] * Quits: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1423. # [17:04] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1424. # [17:04] <timeless> ... -- the studios --
  1425. # [17:04] <timeless> ... i don't know how to solve that
  1426. # [17:04] <timeless> ... from a standards perspective, we think it's great
  1427. # [17:04] <ddorwin> q+
  1428. # [17:04] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1429. # [17:04] <timeless> ... but implementing something which won't be used by anyone isn't practical
  1430. # [17:04] <timeless> q?
  1431. # [17:04] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1432. # [17:04] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  1433. # [17:04] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  1434. # [17:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1435. # [17:05] * timeless joesteele: can you fix Adobe near MSPlay ?
  1436. # [17:05] * Joins: ShaneM_ (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
  1437. # [17:05] <timeless> ddorwin: maybe signatures are opaque
  1438. # [17:05] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
  1439. # [17:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html plh
  1440. # [17:05] <timeless> ... it's a big effort
  1441. # [17:05] <timeless> ... we're going to need approvals
  1442. # [17:05] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
  1443. # [17:05] <timeless> ... important to maintain robustness, features people want
  1444. # [17:05] <timeless> ... i'm not convinced the security is in the format so much
  1445. # [17:05] <timeless> ... have the experience of the people who know these things
  1446. # [17:06] * timeless adrianba please fix MSPlay?
  1447. # [17:06] <Yves> Present+ Yves_LAfon
  1448. # [17:06] <timeless> q?
  1449. # [17:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1450. # [17:06] <markw> q+
  1451. # [17:06] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  1452. # [17:06] <timeless> MarkVickers_: thanks
  1453. # [17:06] <glenn> q+
  1454. # [17:06] * Zakim sees markw, glenn on the speaker queue
  1455. # [17:06] <timeless> ... i can't represent all the studios
  1456. # [17:06] <timeless> ... but we have a studio in my company
  1457. # [17:06] <timeless> ... studios don't want proprietary technology
  1458. # [17:06] <timeless> ... they evaluate/set criteria based on protection
  1459. # [17:06] <timeless> ... i don't think it would be negative
  1460. # [17:06] <timeless> ... we'd welcome it/evaluate it
  1461. # [17:07] <timeless> ... w/ EME, we can interface w/ the available technologies
  1462. # [17:07] <timeless> ... but the same interface could work for open-standards or standards-protocol based implementation
  1463. # [17:07] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1464. # [17:07] <timeless> ack markw
  1465. # [17:07] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
  1466. # [17:08] <timeless> markw: similar comment to MarkVickers_
  1467. # [17:08] <timeless> ... if DRM vendors want to get together and agree on open formats, that's great
  1468. # [17:08] <timeless> ... if that work is done here
  1469. # [17:08] <timeless> ... what does that really mean from an IPR perspective?
  1470. # [17:08] <timeless> ... various DRM vendors won't propose something to which they have rights
  1471. # [17:08] <timeless> ... maybe they have the right to use it
  1472. # [17:08] <timeless> ... but maybe not the right to grant licenses
  1473. # [17:08] <timeless> .... there are dragons there
  1474. # [17:08] <timeless> ... of going in this direction
  1475. # [17:08] <timeless> ... this would take some time
  1476. # [17:09] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  1477. # [17:09] <timeless> ... time to get support into DRMs
  1478. # [17:09] <ddorwin> q+
  1479. # [17:09] * Zakim sees glenn, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1480. # [17:09] <timeless> ... we wouldn't want to see EME held up for that length of time
  1481. # [17:09] <timeless> ... we'd like to see EME deployed w/ proprietary protocols
  1482. # [17:09] <adrianba> q+
  1483. # [17:09] * Zakim sees glenn, ddorwin, adrianba on the speaker queue
  1484. # [17:09] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin, you said you were thinking of something on the table
  1485. # [17:09] <timeless> ... were you thinking of a place in EME for a hook to a second spec?
  1486. # [17:09] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  1487. # [17:09] * Zakim sees glenn, adrianba on the speaker queue
  1488. # [17:09] <timeless> ddorwin: i don't know
  1489. # [17:09] <timeless> ... i was thinking of a second parameter
  1490. # [17:10] <timeless> ... we could have a second document in the same directory
  1491. # [17:10] <timeless> ... iterate on that
  1492. # [17:10] <timeless> ... i agree we don't want to block
  1493. # [17:10] <timeless> ... we want to ship, as well
  1494. # [17:10] <timeless> ... same approach as PSSH
  1495. # [17:10] <timeless> ... yes these exist, but people should be moving in this direction
  1496. # [17:10] * timeless ddorwin ? PSSH ??
  1497. # [17:10] <timeless> ack glenn
  1498. # [17:10] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  1499. # [17:10] <timeless> glenn: not sure there's any bug, w/ EME documented here
  1500. # [17:10] <markw> s/to which they have rights/to which they don't have rights/
  1501. # [17:10] <timeless> ... unless the presumption here is requesting excluding proprietary DRMs be excluded
  1502. # [17:11] <timeless> ... i'd suggest we close this bug as LATER/noaction now
  1503. # [17:11] <timeless> ... nothing in there that reads on EME, unless it's adding a note for future work
  1504. # [17:11] <timeless> q?
  1505. # [17:11] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  1506. # [17:11] * Joins: rkawada_ (~rkawada@public.cloak)
  1507. # [17:11] <timeless> Domenic: i'd caution against pushing this work onto your future selves
  1508. # [17:11] <timeless> ... especially if ddorwin says he has an idea of how to get started on this
  1509. # [17:11] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  1510. # [17:11] <timeless> ... it doesn't have to prevent these features from shipping in their more proprietary form
  1511. # [17:12] <joesteele> q+
  1512. # [17:12] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
  1513. # [17:12] <timeless> ... but we should be able to get started on this to get it better
  1514. # [17:12] <timeless> ack adrianba
  1515. # [17:12] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  1516. # [17:12] <timeless> adrianba: clarifying question
  1517. # [17:12] * timeless ddorwin ? PSSH ?? <- please fix
  1518. # [17:12] <timeless> adrianba: do you mean network protocols for exchange between clients and servers for messages
  1519. # [17:12] <timeless> ... or client protocol between ECM and Service
  1520. # [17:12] * timeless adrianba ECM ??
  1521. # [17:12] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1522. # [17:13] * Joins: jamesx (~jamesx@public.cloak)
  1523. # [17:13] <timeless> Domenic: lot of moving parts here
  1524. # [17:13] <timeless> ... my understanding is that the Server protocol would be important
  1525. # [17:13] <timeless> ... down to goals we have
  1526. # [17:13] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  1527. # [17:13] <timeless> s/ECM/CDM/
  1528. # [17:13] <markw> Q+
  1529. # [17:13] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
  1530. # [17:13] <ddorwin> q+
  1531. # [17:13] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1532. # [17:13] <timeless> ... i guess we want anyone to be able to communicate w/ CDM
  1533. # [17:13] <markw> q+
  1534. # [17:13] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1535. # [17:13] <timeless> ... i think the network protocol as well
  1536. # [17:13] <timeless> adrianba: i think w/ current EME structure
  1537. # [17:13] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  1538. # [17:14] <timeless> ... communication to License service is in the realm of the application owner
  1539. # [17:14] <timeless> ... nothing proprietary in that exchange
  1540. # [17:14] <pal> q+
  1541. # [17:14] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw, ddorwin, pal on the speaker queue
  1542. # [17:14] <timeless> ... i don't think we have an objection to standardizing that
  1543. # [17:14] <timeless> ... that would open up new scenarios
  1544. # [17:14] <timeless> ... you could have common code running a player knowing automatically how to get licenses from different service providers
  1545. # [17:14] <timeless> ... because the api could be the same
  1546. # [17:14] <timeless> ... for the common case, i don't think that's really blocking
  1547. # [17:14] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  1548. # [17:15] <timeless> ... we abstracted that at the API level in the spec
  1549. # [17:15] <timeless> ... i don't see that as blocking interoperable implementation
  1550. # [17:15] <timeless> ack joesteele
  1551. # [17:15] * Zakim sees markw, ddorwin, pal on the speaker queue
  1552. # [17:15] <timeless> joesteele: when i asked about network-protocol
  1553. # [17:15] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  1554. # [17:15] <timeless> ... i was thinking not so much about App sending opaque to license server
  1555. # [17:15] <timeless> ... i was thinking what does a license look like
  1556. # [17:15] <timeless> ... how are keys included, things like that
  1557. # [17:15] <timeless> ... other comment was
  1558. # [17:15] * Quits: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1559. # [17:15] <timeless> ... about Q on APIs, protocol between App and License Server
  1560. # [17:15] * rkawada_ is now known as rkawada
  1561. # [17:15] <timeless> ... as between CDM and Platform
  1562. # [17:16] <timeless> ... don't know if we could do that, i'd like to see work there
  1563. # [17:16] * Joins: song (~song@public.cloak)
  1564. # [17:16] <timeless> ... not sure if W3C is right place for that, definitely long term proposal
  1565. # [17:16] <timeless> ... just negotiating such a spec would be a year
  1566. # [17:16] <timeless> ... and implementing it longer
  1567. # [17:16] <timeless> ... third? ... i'll have to think about other thing
  1568. # [17:16] <timeless> ack markw
  1569. # [17:16] * Zakim sees ddorwin, pal on the speaker queue
  1570. # [17:16] <timeless> markw: i think standardization of Opaque blobs
  1571. # [17:16] <timeless> ... license server might be something else, dealt w/ libraries
  1572. # [17:17] <timeless> ... Q of standard api for CDM
  1573. # [17:17] <timeless> ... is something, for browser vendors
  1574. # [17:17] <timeless> ... browsers created NPAPI
  1575. # [17:17] <timeless> ... something like that
  1576. # [17:17] <timeless> ... MS published CDMI
  1577. # [17:17] <timeless> ... i think, going towards that
  1578. # [17:17] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) (Lachy)
  1579. # [17:17] <timeless> ... for things they wanted to do
  1580. # [17:17] <timeless> ... it isn't really in our scope, it'd be good
  1581. # [17:17] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  1582. # [17:17] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
  1583. # [17:17] <adrianba> if it is the format of the blob then that is the protocol between the CDM and the client application that we're talking about not network at all
  1584. # [17:17] <timeless> ddorwin: this is about the License Protocol
  1585. # [17:17] <timeless> ... CDMI is very narrow in what platforms may need
  1586. # [17:17] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1587. # [17:17] <timeless> ... platforms vary so much
  1588. # [17:17] <timeless> ... a fraction of what we have in Chrome for various things
  1589. # [17:18] <timeless> ... even the interface we provide in Chrome isn't what's used in Chrome, because we have a shim
  1590. # [17:18] <timeless> ... as long as you're clear about what you're expecting from a browser
  1591. # [17:18] <markw> http://download.microsoft.com/download/E/A/4/EA470677-6C3C-4AFE-8A86-A196ADFD0F78/Content%20Decryption%20Module%20Interface%20Specification.pdf
  1592. # [17:18] <timeless> ... it's easy to shim
  1593. # [17:18] <timeless> ... Hardware, SSEs are implementing things over and over
  1594. # [17:18] <timeless> joesteele: that's what i'd like to see standardized
  1595. # [17:18] <timeless> ack pal
  1596. # [17:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1597. # [17:18] <timeless> pal: Pal, MoviLabs
  1598. # [17:19] <timeless> ... struggling how EME doesn't support a fully open CDM
  1599. # [17:19] <timeless> ... unless EME doesn't do that
  1600. # [17:19] <ddorwin> q+
  1601. # [17:19] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1602. # [17:19] <timeless> ... i'm not sure there's a bug here
  1603. # [17:19] <timeless> ... what is the bug?
  1604. # [17:19] <timeless> markw: that CDM doesn't exist
  1605. # [17:19] <plh> q+
  1606. # [17:19] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh on the speaker queue
  1607. # [17:19] <timeless> pal: that's orthogonal
  1608. # [17:19] <timeless> ... there is an open and fully specified DRM today
  1609. # [17:19] <timeless> paulc: for fear of getting on w3-meme
  1610. # [17:19] <timeless> ... i don't want to speak for the Director
  1611. # [17:20] <timeless> ... when we call for implementations of EME
  1612. # [17:20] <markw> q+
  1613. # [17:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh, markw on the speaker queue
  1614. # [17:20] <Domenic> q+
  1615. # [17:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh, markw, Domenic on the speaker queue
  1616. # [17:20] <timeless> ... one thing Director asks is to get new people to come with implementations
  1617. # [17:20] <timeless> ... the call is meant to demonstrate that the spec can be used by a third party who wasn't in the room, to implement
  1618. # [17:20] <timeless> ... pal, you're saying they could implement it
  1619. # [17:20] <timeless> s/Pal/Pierre/
  1620. # [17:20] <ddorwin> q?
  1621. # [17:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh, markw, Domenic on the speaker queue
  1622. # [17:20] <timeless> paulc: could you put that they could in the bug?
  1623. # [17:21] <timeless> pal: can we resolve this bug today
  1624. # [17:21] <timeless> ... if i write in the bug, can we resolve it?
  1625. # [17:21] <timeless> paulc: two people said we might resolve this LATER/something else
  1626. # [17:21] <joesteele> q?
  1627. # [17:21] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh, markw, Domenic on the speaker queue
  1628. # [17:21] <timeless> ... one person said they might make a proposal to add something to EME
  1629. # [17:21] <timeless> ... seems like we might need more discussion
  1630. # [17:22] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  1631. # [17:22] * Zakim sees plh, markw, Domenic on the speaker queue
  1632. # [17:22] * timeless un ack
  1633. # [17:22] <timeless> ack Domenic
  1634. # [17:22] * Zakim sees plh, markw on the speaker queue
  1635. # [17:22] <timeless> Domenic: wanted to second interoperable implementations
  1636. # [17:22] <plh> q-
  1637. # [17:22] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  1638. # [17:22] <timeless> ... and Director's concerns there
  1639. # [17:22] <timeless> ... one of the best things to be done
  1640. # [17:22] <timeless> ... would be go beyond "hey, 2 browsers implement EME, and APIs exist"
  1641. # [17:23] <timeless> ... want to show multiple EMEs, content providers, interacting in an interoperable way
  1642. # [17:23] <pal> q+
  1643. # [17:23] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
  1644. # [17:23] <timeless> ... that's what we're trying to get at
  1645. # [17:23] <timeless> ddorwin: reiterating what Domenic said
  1646. # [17:23] <timeless> ... all EME does now is expose proprietary blobs
  1647. # [17:23] <timeless> ... they want to see interoperable
  1648. # [17:23] * Joins: forty41 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  1649. # [17:23] <timeless> ... instead of just a spec
  1650. # [17:23] <BobLund> q+
  1651. # [17:23] * Zakim sees markw, pal, BobLund on the speaker queue
  1652. # [17:24] <timeless> ... part of it is "what does it mean to have 2 interoperable"
  1653. # [17:24] <timeless> ack markw
  1654. # [17:24] * Zakim sees pal, BobLund on the speaker queue
  1655. # [17:24] <timeless> markw: EME is operating today
  1656. # [17:24] <timeless> ... w/ multiple browsers, providers
  1657. # [17:24] <timeless> ... we need to support multiple key systems server side
  1658. # [17:24] <joesteele> q+
  1659. # [17:24] * Zakim sees pal, BobLund, joesteele on the speaker queue
  1660. # [17:24] <timeless> ... it's equally difficult for us as anyone else
  1661. # [17:24] <timeless> ... EME could support an open DRM CDM today if someone made it
  1662. # [17:24] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  1663. # [17:24] <timeless> ... we could write something into the EME spec that CDMs support a specific thing
  1664. # [17:25] <timeless> ... different thing, go to DRMs saying you can keep your proprietary
  1665. # [17:25] * Parts: jeff_ (jeff@public.cloak) (Leaving)
  1666. # [17:25] <timeless> ... but we want you to support an open thing too
  1667. # [17:25] <timeless> ack pal
  1668. # [17:25] * Zakim sees BobLund, joesteele on the speaker queue
  1669. # [17:25] <timeless> pal: i think some of the things said here
  1670. # [17:25] <timeless> ... were interesting suggestions
  1671. # [17:25] <timeless> ... Exit-Criteria
  1672. # [17:25] <timeless> ... things to put in the Spec
  1673. # [17:25] <timeless> ... but that isn't the bug
  1674. # [17:25] <timeless> ... how do we resolve this bug
  1675. # [17:25] <timeless> ... do we close this bug and open other bugs?
  1676. # [17:25] <timeless> ack BobLund
  1677. # [17:25] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  1678. # [17:26] <timeless> BobLund: wanted to respond to Domenic 's point about Interop
  1679. # [17:26] <timeless> ... we've demonstrated ability to take single piece of content
  1680. # [17:26] <timeless> ... encrypt w/ multiple keysystems
  1681. # [17:26] <timeless> ... and play back w/ multiple CDMs
  1682. # [17:26] <markw> s/keep your proprietary/keep your proprietary robustness solution and business arrangements/
  1683. # [17:26] <timeless> ... is that interop, because that exists
  1684. # [17:26] <timeless> Domenic: how much code was keysystem specific?
  1685. # [17:26] <markw> s/an open thing too/open message formats/
  1686. # [17:27] <timeless> ... sounds like your comments and markw 's that there's a good start on interop
  1687. # [17:27] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
  1688. # [17:27] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1689. # [17:27] <timeless> ... sounds like on license that it isn't interoperable
  1690. # [17:27] <slightlyoff> that would be helpful
  1691. # [17:27] <timeless> BobLund: we'd be happy to share the details
  1692. # [17:27] <timeless> ... tell us the right venue/mechanism
  1693. # [17:27] <timeless> paulc: the bug
  1694. # [17:27] <timeless> Domenic: largely a matter in showing interop to go to CR
  1695. # [17:27] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
  1696. # [17:27] <timeless> ... we're happy to help get involve
  1697. # [17:27] <timeless> q?
  1698. # [17:27] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  1699. # [17:27] <timeless> ... happy to continue conversation sometime
  1700. # [17:27] <timeless> ack joesteele
  1701. # [17:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1702. # [17:28] * Quits: stone (~emu@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  1703. # [17:28] <timeless> joesteele: not clear on part of the goal of this bug
  1704. # [17:28] <timeless> ... same server on server side could service any key system on the client side
  1705. # [17:28] <timeless> ... i don't think that's possible
  1706. # [17:28] <timeless> ... since key encryption is hardware specific
  1707. # [17:28] <timeless> ... and requires specific stuff on the server side
  1708. # [17:28] <timeless> ... i think that might enforce proprietary code on server side
  1709. # [17:28] * Joins: ddavis_ (~ddavis_@public.cloak)
  1710. # [17:28] <timeless> paulc: i've heard
  1711. # [17:28] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
  1712. # [17:28] <timeless> ... a) no issue
  1713. # [17:28] <Domenic> joesteele: I think that is pretty well covered by https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27053#c7
  1714. # [17:28] <timeless> ... b) here's the proof
  1715. # [17:29] <timeless> ... that's what we want added into the bug
  1716. # [17:29] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1717. # [17:29] <timeless> ... and ddorwin you had something to propose
  1718. # [17:29] * Quits: ddavis_ (~ddavis_@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1719. # [17:29] <timeless> ... i think people understand the direction TAG suggests we go
  1720. # [17:29] <timeless> ... think we should have some dialog
  1721. # [17:29] <timeless> q?
  1722. # [17:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1723. # [17:29] <timeless> ... i think it's presumptuous to close this bug
  1724. # [17:29] <timeless> topic: Bug 27054 Accessibility Concerns
  1725. # [17:29] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
  1726. # [17:30] <ddavis> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054 Accessibility Concerns
  1727. # [17:30] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054
  1728. # [17:30] <timeless> paulc: I asked for clarification on this bug filed by the TAG and then asked the A11Y TF to supply their view which was done in:
  1729. # [17:30] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054#c3
  1730. # [17:30] <timeless> paulc: john folliet said he didn't see a problem
  1731. # [17:31] <timeless> ddorwin: john said he didn't see a problem
  1732. # [17:31] <Yves> s/folliet/foliot
  1733. # [17:31] <timeless> ... and then YYY said their interpretation wasn't right
  1734. # [17:31] <timeless> ... no one's done the wrong thing
  1735. # [17:31] <timeless> ... audio, i don't know the accessibility features there
  1736. # [17:31] <timeless> ... if that's over protected HDMI, there's a problem
  1737. # [17:31] <timeless> ... secure video path is a problem
  1738. # [17:31] <MarkVickers_> q+
  1739. # [17:31] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  1740. # [17:31] <timeless> ... there are concerns there
  1741. # [17:31] <timeless> ... don't know the answer
  1742. # [17:31] <plh> q+
  1743. # [17:31] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_, plh on the speaker queue
  1744. # [17:31] <timeless> ack MarkVickers_
  1745. # [17:31] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  1746. # [17:31] <timeless> MarkVickers_: thanks paulc
  1747. # [17:32] <timeless> ... i read through this bug, i don't understand
  1748. # [17:32] <timeless> ... strong benefits of EME is accessibility
  1749. # [17:32] <timeless> ... if you want access for captions
  1750. # [17:32] <timeless> ... trick-plays
  1751. # [17:32] <plh> q-
  1752. # [17:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1753. # [17:32] <timeless> ... any of those things are done by completely arbitrary interfaces
  1754. # [17:32] * plh found his answer
  1755. # [17:32] <timeless> ... done through proprietary means
  1756. # [17:32] <timeless> ... EME API provides HTML5 standard access for Caption, Trick Play, moving through media streams
  1757. # [17:33] <timeless> ... references to media streams
  1758. # [17:33] <timeless> ... huge improvements for Accessibilty
  1759. # [17:33] <timeless> ... strong driver for us to move our content to it
  1760. # [17:33] <timeless> ... i don't see downsides, i see all improvements
  1761. # [17:33] <timeless> q?
  1762. # [17:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1763. # [17:33] * Joins: emu_ (~emu@public.cloak)
  1764. # [17:33] <timeless> Domenic: largely agree w/ ddorwin 's assessment
  1765. # [17:33] <timeless> ... a11y came back w/ good review
  1766. # [17:34] <timeless> ... but harry came back w/ points
  1767. # [17:34] <timeless> ... worth just watching
  1768. # [17:34] <timeless> ... i agree better-than-best
  1769. # [17:34] <timeless> ... goal should be as accessible as unencrypted
  1770. # [17:34] <timeless> ... not as-accessible-as-flash
  1771. # [17:34] <timeless> paulc: MarkVickers_ is saying we're better rather than equal
  1772. # [17:34] <Domenic> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054#c7 is what i was thinking of
  1773. # [17:34] <timeless> s/harry/hsivonen
  1774. # [17:35] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin did you propose changes
  1775. # [17:35] <timeless> ddorwin: John Foliot and i discussed
  1776. # [17:35] <markw> q+
  1777. # [17:35] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  1778. # [17:35] <timeless> ... i thought someone was going to file a bug and fill it in
  1779. # [17:35] <timeless> ... one problem area is high-contrast
  1780. # [17:35] <timeless> paulc: you'll spin off bugs for audio/video/text
  1781. # [17:35] <MarkVickers_> I'm believe that EME provides ALL the same HTML5 accessibility for encrypted content as for unencrypted content.
  1782. # [17:36] <timeless> markw: biggest is video
  1783. # [17:36] <timeless> ... any accessibility function can be done in device
  1784. # [17:36] <timeless> ... can still be done w/ DRM
  1785. # [17:36] <timeless> ... but that's a QoI thing
  1786. # [17:36] <timeless> ... impact on a11y tools
  1787. # [17:36] <timeless> ... any tool that accepts HDMI can work
  1788. # [17:36] <timeless> ... but tools are reduced if they do HDCP will reduce a11y tool
  1789. # [17:36] <timeless> q?
  1790. # [17:36] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  1791. # [17:37] <timeless> ack markw
  1792. # [17:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1793. # [17:37] <timeless> topic: Bug 27055 Surfacing license to the user
  1794. # [17:37] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27055
  1795. # [17:37] <timeless> paulc: I asked for clarification on this bug filed by the TAG and this has generated new active discussion.
  1796. # [17:37] <timeless> ... who wants to introduce?
  1797. # [17:38] <timeless> Domenic: not sure we'll be able to have a productive discussion on bug
  1798. # [17:38] <timeless> ... it's mostly Sergey Konstantinov, and he isn't in the room
  1799. # [17:38] <timeless> ... seems like a reasonable request to me
  1800. # [17:38] <timeless> ... to translate machine readable request
  1801. # [17:38] * Quits: stone (~emu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1802. # [17:38] <slightlyoff> +1, I agree that we aren't going to make progress on this here
  1803. # [17:38] <timeless> ... machine readable 1 hour
  1804. # [17:38] <timeless> ... reasonable to give chance for human to understand
  1805. # [17:38] <markw> it's content providers who insist on HDCP and it is this insistence that reduces the set of a11y tools that could manipulate video to those that support HDCP not anything in EME
  1806. # [17:38] <timeless> joesteele: when i read this, it seems like a restriction on the application
  1807. # [17:38] <timeless> ... we could expose it from the CDM layer
  1808. # [17:38] <timeless> ... but if the application chooses not to expose it
  1809. # [17:39] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  1810. # [17:39] <timeless> ... and i don't know any application that would
  1811. # [17:39] <timeless> ... how useful would it be?
  1812. # [17:39] <timeless> Domenic: you click the lock icon in your url bar
  1813. # [17:39] <timeless> ... 90% of users don't
  1814. # [17:39] <timeless> ... but some users do, to want to verify it
  1815. # [17:39] <timeless> paulc: there could be guidance in the spec for UAs
  1816. # [17:39] <timeless> ... whether we could make it mandatory would be hard
  1817. # [17:39] <timeless> Domenic: yeah, there's discussion in the bug
  1818. # [17:40] <joesteele> timeless:FCC Chair was here Wednedsayd regulations could happen -- whether we ask for them or not
  1819. # [17:40] <markw> q+
  1820. # [17:40] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  1821. # [17:40] <joesteele> ... this is not an unreasonable authoring encouragement
  1822. # [17:40] <adrianba> q+
  1823. # [17:40] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
  1824. # [17:40] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  1825. # [17:40] <joesteele> ... be aware that it might make sense to add a regulatory hook -- that FCC can point to
  1826. # [17:41] <slightlyoff> I don't understand that suggestion...is there a concrete proposal?
  1827. # [17:41] <timeless> s/Wednedsayd/Wednesday/
  1828. # [17:41] <timeless> markw: perfectly reasonable for service providers to express
  1829. # [17:41] <timeless> ... and if they don't do it, it's outside of scope
  1830. # [17:41] <timeless> ... and w/o those, regulations may happen
  1831. # [17:41] <timeless> ... but that's different from Technical restrictions in the key
  1832. # [17:41] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1833. # [17:41] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
  1834. # [17:42] <timeless> ... unclear that those technical restrictions are meaningful
  1835. # [17:42] <timeless> q?
  1836. # [17:42] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
  1837. # [17:42] <MarkVickers_> +1
  1838. # [17:42] <timeless> ack markw
  1839. # [17:42] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  1840. # [17:42] <timeless> ack adrianba
  1841. # [17:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1842. # [17:42] <markw> q-
  1843. # [17:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1844. # [17:42] <timeless> adrianba: i agree w/ markw
  1845. # [17:42] <timeless> ... technical restrictions conveyed in licenses can vary considerably in various scenarios
  1846. # [17:43] <timeless> ... very time consuming to try to put together a technical API for the various restrictions
  1847. # [17:43] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
  1848. # [17:43] <timeless> paulc: to bring this bug to a Media TF and get Sergey Konstantinov to attend
  1849. # [17:43] <MarkVickers_> q+
  1850. # [17:43] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  1851. # [17:43] <timeless> ddorwin: i'll action paulc to arrange meeting w/ Sergey
  1852. # [17:44] <timeless> ... done
  1853. # [17:44] <timeless> topic: Bug 27093 Support for proprietary/system-specific formats in initData should be discouraged/deprecated
  1854. # [17:44] <timeless> s|topic: Bug 27093 Support for proprietary/system-specific formats in initData should be discouraged/deprecated||
  1855. # [17:44] <timeless> topic: Bug 27166 - All identifiers associated with a user should be clearable in the same way cookies are
  1856. # [17:44] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak)
  1857. # [17:44] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27166
  1858. # [17:44] <adrianba> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/68 Paul's action
  1859. # [17:45] <timeless> paulc: TAG is asking that keys be flushable like cookies
  1860. # [17:45] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1861. # [17:45] <timeless> Domenic: i understand it might not be robust
  1862. # [17:45] <timeless> ... hsivonen had some idea
  1863. # [17:45] <ddorwin> q+
  1864. # [17:45] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1865. # [17:45] <timeless> ... something to be exposed to users if it's that possible
  1866. # [17:45] <timeless> topic: Bug 27165 - User agents should warn users if they bring along unclearable identifiers
  1867. # [17:46] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27165
  1868. # [17:46] <timeless> paulc: sounds like these bugs are very related
  1869. # [17:46] <timeless> topic: Bug 27166 - All identifiers associated with a user should be clearable in the same way cookies are
  1870. # [17:46] <MarkVickers_> q-
  1871. # [17:46] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1872. # [17:46] <joesteele> q+
  1873. # [17:46] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
  1874. # [17:46] <timeless> markw: if people agree to 27166, maybe we don't need 27165
  1875. # [17:46] * Quits: igarashi_ (~igarashi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1876. # [17:46] * Joins: igarashi__ (~igarashi@public.cloak)
  1877. # [17:46] <timeless> ... do it first and see
  1878. # [17:47] <timeless> ... for NetFlix, there's no requirement for browsers to have unclearable identifiers
  1879. # [17:47] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1880. # [17:47] <timeless> ... if the identifiers are clearable, it's fine by us
  1881. # [17:47] * Domenic \o/
  1882. # [17:47] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
  1883. # [17:47] <timeless> It would be ideal if we required that clearing ones cookies, history, etc. also cleared any such identifiers.
  1884. # [17:47] <timeless> I am unsure this is possible for robustness reasons, and as such filed bug #27165 to explore mitigating strategies, but if there is even a chance of requiring they be clearable that would be much better, and would love to have that discussion in this bug.
  1885. # [17:47] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1886. # [17:47] <timeless> q?
  1887. # [17:47] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
  1888. # [17:47] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  1889. # [17:47] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  1890. # [17:47] <timeless> ddorwin: you asked how are we going to address this
  1891. # [17:47] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  1892. # [17:47] <timeless> ... probably a series of shoulds
  1893. # [17:47] <jdsmith> q+
  1894. # [17:47] * Zakim sees joesteele, jdsmith on the speaker queue
  1895. # [17:48] <timeless> ... implementation guidelines
  1896. # [17:48] <markw> specifically, I a referring to identifiers that uniquely identify a device
  1897. # [17:48] <timeless> paulc: do we have a security and privacy section?
  1898. # [17:48] <timeless> ddorwin: yes, currently non-normative
  1899. # [17:48] * Joins: wooglae1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  1900. # [17:48] <timeless> ... we could do it elsewhere or here (in this room, now)
  1901. # [17:48] <timeless> ... no id, clearable, reset this if i want
  1902. # [17:48] <timeless> ... various robustness
  1903. # [17:48] <timeless> ... i think ids are overused
  1904. # [17:48] <timeless> ... don't use an id unless you actually need
  1905. # [17:48] <timeless> q?
  1906. # [17:48] * Zakim sees joesteele, jdsmith on the speaker queue
  1907. # [17:48] <timeless> ack joesteele
  1908. # [17:48] * Zakim sees jdsmith on the speaker queue
  1909. # [17:49] <timeless> joesteele: Q, I agree w/ this bug
  1910. # [17:49] <timeless> ... but what do they mean by identifiers
  1911. # [17:49] <timeless> ... a list of things given
  1912. # [17:49] <timeless> ... what is the scope of the identifier being given
  1913. # [17:49] <pal> q+
  1914. # [17:49] * Zakim sees jdsmith, pal on the speaker queue
  1915. # [17:49] <timeless> ... if a key used by all CDMs for a keysystem
  1916. # [17:49] <timeless> ... is that an identifier
  1917. # [17:49] <ddorwin> q+
  1918. # [17:49] * Zakim sees jdsmith, pal, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  1919. # [17:49] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1920. # [17:49] <timeless> ... this would be a permanent identifier, baked into the CDM client
  1921. # [17:49] <timeless> ... you're using the CDM
  1922. # [17:50] * Quits: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1923. # [17:50] <glenn> q+
  1924. # [17:50] * Zakim sees jdsmith, pal, ddorwin, glenn on the speaker queue
  1925. # [17:50] <timeless> paulc: is TAG issue about whether a identifier can identify the person using the UA
  1926. # [17:50] <timeless> Domenic: exactly
  1927. # [17:50] <timeless> ... it's a fingerprinting issue
  1928. # [17:50] <timeless> ... if you can identify the CDM/system in play
  1929. # [17:50] <timeless> joesteele: answers my question
  1930. # [17:50] <timeless> ack jdsmith
  1931. # [17:50] * Zakim sees pal, ddorwin, glenn on the speaker queue
  1932. # [17:50] <timeless> jdsmith: Jerry Smith, Microsoft
  1933. # [17:50] <timeless> jdsmith: in PlayReady
  1934. # [17:50] <timeless> s/MSPlay/MS PlayReady/
  1935. # [17:50] <timeless> ... we have an identifier in personsalization of key system
  1936. # [17:51] <timeless> ... we looked at privacy aspect
  1937. # [17:51] <timeless> ... we felt it was a fairly low risk
  1938. # [17:51] <timeless> ... exploiting it
  1939. # [17:51] <joesteele> it would be great if the comment about what types of identifiers are concerned about (aka fingerprinting user versus KeySystems) could be added to the bug
  1940. # [17:51] <timeless> ... took license servers, required them to retrieve it
  1941. # [17:51] <timeless> ... we concluded to allow users to delete it
  1942. # [17:51] <timeless> q?
  1943. # [17:51] * Zakim sees pal, ddorwin, glenn on the speaker queue
  1944. # [17:51] <timeless> ... wouldn't object to recommending that in the spec
  1945. # [17:51] <timeless> ack pal
  1946. # [17:51] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn on the speaker queue
  1947. # [17:51] <timeless> pal: is there a W3C spec that mandates/recommends clearing cookies?
  1948. # [17:51] <timeless> ... under what circumstances
  1949. # [17:52] <wseltzer> q+ re fingerprinting guidance
  1950. # [17:52] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer on the speaker queue
  1951. # [17:52] <timeless> slightlyoff: Alex Russel, Google
  1952. # [17:52] <timeless> ... there's no spec
  1953. # [17:52] <timeless> ... there's rough consensus of UAs
  1954. # [17:52] * Joins: adrianba_ (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  1955. # [17:52] <timeless> ... users have consensus of expectations
  1956. # [17:52] <timeless> ... and as vendors, we understand that there's a third rail
  1957. # [17:52] <timeless> ... we're powerfully compelled to do this on their behalf
  1958. # [17:52] <adrianba_> q?
  1959. # [17:52] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer on the speaker queue
  1960. # [17:52] <timeless> pal: all this is done w/o a spec
  1961. # [17:53] <plh> q+
  1962. # [17:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer, plh on the speaker queue
  1963. # [17:53] <timeless> plh: Philippe Le Hégaret W3
  1964. # [17:53] <wseltzer> [Fingerprinting guidance being developed in the Privacy Interest Group: https://w3c.github.io/fingerprinting-guidance/ ]
  1965. # [17:53] <slightlyoff> pal: it's a good point, at the same time, the concern is that there might be specs that put undue constraints on impls in this way
  1966. # [17:53] <timeless> ... we have Web Story, User Tracking
  1967. # [17:53] <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/webstorage/#privacy
  1968. # [17:53] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
  1969. # [17:53] <joesteele> s/personsalization/personalization/
  1970. # [17:53] <timeless> s/Story/Storage/
  1971. # [17:53] <markw> q+
  1972. # [17:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer, plh, markw on the speaker queue
  1973. # [17:53] <timeless> ... so there's no reason this spec couldn't do this as well
  1974. # [17:53] <wseltzer> q-
  1975. # [17:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, plh, markw on the speaker queue
  1976. # [17:54] <timeless> ... it's a REC actually
  1977. # [17:54] <timeless> paulc: i guess it does matter
  1978. # [17:54] <timeless> q?
  1979. # [17:54] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, plh, markw on the speaker queue
  1980. # [17:54] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  1981. # [17:54] * Zakim sees glenn, plh, markw on the speaker queue
  1982. # [17:54] <slightlyoff> pal: the specific concern is that if impls are REQUIRED by some combination of tech and licenses to break these assumptions, it's very bad
  1983. # [17:54] <slightlyoff> and is likely to be unacceptable
  1984. # [17:54] <timeless> ddorwin: clearly there's disagreement on what constitutes a privacy concern
  1985. # [17:54] <timeless> ... something to work out
  1986. # [17:54] <timeless> ... in interest of users if we work it out
  1987. # [17:54] <timeless> ... take steps to help them
  1988. # [17:54] <timeless> ... even w/ a permanent HW ID
  1989. # [17:54] <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/IndexedDB/#privacy
  1990. # [17:54] <timeless> ... mechanisms to protect them
  1991. # [17:55] <timeless> ... also, Desktop browsers have done good things here
  1992. # [17:55] <timeless> ... also have to remember devices
  1993. # [17:55] <timeless> ... also browsers/native apps exposing the same id
  1994. # [17:55] <timeless> ... browser vendors should take that seriously
  1995. # [17:55] <timeless> ... i don't think solving this fixes the previous one
  1996. # [17:55] <timeless> ... cryptographic cookie
  1997. # [17:55] <timeless> ... could rebuild firefox/chromium and put whatever
  1998. # [17:56] <timeless> paulc: you just had pushback on closing this
  1999. # [17:56] <timeless> markw: WebStorage spec
  2000. # [17:56] * Quits: taku (~taku@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  2001. # [17:56] <glenn> q-
  2002. # [17:56] * Zakim sees plh, markw on the speaker queue
  2003. # [17:56] <timeless> ... text came from the same source
  2004. # [17:56] <timeless> ... into the EME privacy section
  2005. # [17:56] <timeless> ... i think i copied+pasted
  2006. # [17:56] <timeless> ... in WebStorage it says here are things you could do
  2007. # [17:56] <pal> q+
  2008. # [17:56] * Zakim sees plh, markw, pal on the speaker queue
  2009. # [17:56] <timeless> ... we could say these are required/should
  2010. # [17:56] <timeless> ... on cookie DRM ids
  2011. # [17:56] <timeless> ... if you can clear the identifier and make a new one
  2012. # [17:57] <timeless> ... you could make one device and look like multiple
  2013. # [17:57] <timeless> ... we don't care
  2014. # [17:57] <plh> q-
  2015. # [17:57] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
  2016. # [17:57] <timeless> ... if you can make multiple devices look like one
  2017. # [17:57] <timeless> ... we care
  2018. # [17:57] <joesteele> +1
  2019. # [17:57] <timeless> ... you can copy cookies across devices
  2020. # [17:57] <timeless> ... that's a problem
  2021. # [17:57] <timeless> ack markw
  2022. # [17:57] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
  2023. # [17:58] * Joins: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  2024. # [17:58] <timeless> ack pal
  2025. # [17:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2026. # [17:58] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2027. # [17:58] <timeless> paulc: updating 27166 to point to existing material
  2028. # [17:58] <timeless> ... and ask about whether it should be NORMATIVE is the next tep
  2029. # [17:58] <timeless> s/tep/step/
  2030. # [17:58] <ddorwin> q+
  2031. # [17:58] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2032. # [17:59] <timeless> markw: it's Non Normative in the spec
  2033. # [17:59] <timeless> ... different to WebStorage (where it's normative)
  2034. # [17:59] <adrianba_> s/pal: the specific concern/pal, the specific concern/
  2035. # [17:59] <timeless> ... but neither have shoulds/musts
  2036. # [17:59] <timeless> ddorwin: it's non normative
  2037. # [17:59] <pal> slightlyoff, can you elaborate on the specific concerns?
  2038. # [17:59] <timeless> ... we could have "here's introduction"
  2039. # [17:59] <timeless> ... and then "here's the recommendations", and that's normative
  2040. # [17:59] <timeless> paulc: an editor assigned to this bug?
  2041. # [17:59] <timeless> [ Adrian ]
  2042. # [18:00] <timeless> markw: i'll work on it
  2043. # [18:00] <slightlyoff> pal: consider a situation where we had a persistent identifier across browsers for a specific bit of hardware in some other way
  2044. # [18:00] <slightlyoff> pal: and where users couldn't clear it
  2045. # [18:00] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin assign it to markw
  2046. # [18:00] <timeless> ... markw will bring it up to date
  2047. # [18:00] <slightlyoff> pal: (e.g., a CPUID)
  2048. # [18:00] <timeless> ... I think that covers the TAG bugs
  2049. # [18:00] <timeless> ... we're going to switch to another item at 10am
  2050. # [18:00] <slightlyoff> pal: browser vendors are very likely to mask that and/or prevent it from being available
  2051. # [18:00] <timeless> ... bug about https:
  2052. # [18:01] <timeless> topic: Bug 27165 - User agents should warn users if they bring along unclearable identifiers
  2053. # [18:01] <slightlyoff> pal: because privacy is a key component of what a browser promises to "be" in terms of an agent for the user's interests
  2054. # [18:01] <pal> slightlyoff, ok... so I am still no sure what is incorrect with the EME specification
  2055. # [18:01] <timeless> paulc: we'll come back to this after 27166
  2056. # [18:01] * Quits: adrianba_ (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2057. # [18:01] * Joins: adrianba_ (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  2058. # [18:01] <timeless> topic: Bug 26332 Applications should only use EME APIs on secure origins (e.g. HTTPS)
  2059. # [18:01] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332
  2060. # [18:01] <timeless> paulc: Belongs in batch of security related bugs which also includes: Bug 26838 - Normatively address vulnerabilities related to initData contained in media data
  2061. # [18:01] <timeless> ... thirty five comments
  2062. # [18:02] <timeless> ... ddorwin made a change, people asked it to be changed
  2063. # [18:02] <slightlyoff> pal: perhaps nothing! The question from the TAG is roughly along the lines of "is it the case that users are likely to be able to control this in common implementations?"
  2064. # [18:02] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332#c130
  2065. # [18:02] <timeless> markw: I discussed the spec change with David and we agreed to change the text for the moment so that it is clear the behavior on unauthenticated origins is an open issue.
  2066. # [18:02] <timeless> ... The procedures still describe the check for an unauthenticated origin, but the subsequent behaviour is noted as open with a reference to this bug.
  2067. # [18:02] <timeless> ... There is no disagreement that there is a problem to be solved here.
  2068. # [18:02] * ShaneM_ is now known as ShaneM
  2069. # [18:02] <timeless> ... The disagreement is about the solution and it requires continued discussion.
  2070. # [18:02] <slightlyoff> pal: the spec text has bearing on it, but what this room agrees to is more important because it'll help us understand the likely implications, which are what's important
  2071. # [18:02] <timeless> [ from the bug ]
  2072. # [18:03] <timeless> markw: it's been proposed that we require an authenticated origin from EME
  2073. # [18:03] <timeless> ... a bunch of problems it would resolve
  2074. # [18:03] * adrianba_ is now known as adrianba
  2075. # [18:03] <timeless> ... there are implications
  2076. # [18:03] <timeless> ... from serving the site, it would be great
  2077. # [18:03] <pal> slightlyoff, ok... I think it is very difficult for this group to make progress on these bugs without a clear proposal and/or pointers to specific areas that are broken.
  2078. # [18:03] <timeless> ... but for serving the content, we don't believe switching to https isn't great for privacy
  2079. # [18:03] <timeless> ... costs of actually serving media over https
  2080. # [18:03] * Joins: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak)
  2081. # [18:03] <timeless> ... it would be 30-50% increase in server load
  2082. # [18:03] <timeless> ... $10s-100s millions / year
  2083. # [18:04] <timeless> ... best way forward
  2084. # [18:04] <timeless> ... look at what are the conditions
  2085. # [18:04] <timeless> ... in which it's reasonable to use http://
  2086. # [18:04] <timeless> ... if they're met, it's ok, if not, it's ok
  2087. # [18:04] <timeless> ... discuss in detail about the conditions
  2088. # [18:04] <timeless> ... look at those
  2089. # [18:04] <timeless> paulc: does anything in the bug define those criteria?
  2090. # [18:04] <timeless> markw: i think someone agreed to make one
  2091. # [18:04] <slightlyoff> pal: the way to think about it is a question: the TAG wants to understand what's likely as a way to understand how it'll impact the overall architecture. If the spec text needs stronger language to constrain impls, that's something we want to understand
  2092. # [18:04] <timeless> ... hsivonen?
  2093. # [18:04] <pal> slightlyoff, in other words, I am concerned with "perhaps nothing" since it is difficult to come up with a solution when the problem is not well scoped/understood
  2094. # [18:05] <timeless> ... for people who don't want to read all 130 comments, just reading hsivonen's comments would be good
  2095. # [18:05] <slightlyoff> pal: the TAG isn't going to dive in and require things of WGs which are acting in good faith and for which implementations conform to social and architectural norms
  2096. # [18:05] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
  2097. # [18:06] <slightlyoff> pal: so the goal is to understand
  2098. # [18:06] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  2099. # [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  2100. # [18:06] <ddorwin> q+
  2101. # [18:06] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2102. # [18:06] <slightlyoff> pal: and, based on that, come to some common agreement. If this process is adversarial, the TAG is doing it wrong
  2103. # [18:06] <timeless> paulc: markw 's suggestion was to develop criteria for whether you use a secured origin or not
  2104. # [18:06] <timeless> markw: booked on spectrum
  2105. # [18:06] <joesteele> Here is a related email -- but not distilled well -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0092.html
  2106. # [18:06] <timeless> ... if you had a unique, non-clearable-id, in EME messages in the clear, and sent in the clear
  2107. # [18:07] <timeless> ... if that was allowed at all, that definitely need to be restricted to secure origin
  2108. # [18:07] <timeless> ... then there's stuff which are encrypted already
  2109. # [18:07] <joesteele> q+
  2110. # [18:07] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2111. # [18:07] <timeless> ... for that, i think http: is reasonable
  2112. # [18:07] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  2113. # [18:07] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  2114. # [18:07] <timeless> ddorwin: might be disagreement of if that's reasonable
  2115. # [18:07] <timeless> ... 2 aspects
  2116. # [18:07] <timeless> ... 1. privacy
  2117. # [18:07] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  2118. # [18:07] <timeless> ... 2. security
  2119. # [18:07] <timeless> ... the former is dealable
  2120. # [18:07] <timeless> ... the other is harder
  2121. # [18:07] * Joins: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak)
  2122. # [18:08] <timeless> ... stuff that could be scrubbed
  2123. # [18:08] <timeless> ... always security until there's no robustness
  2124. # [18:08] <markw> s/stuff which are encrypted already/stuff which are encrypted already, per-origin, clearable/
  2125. # [18:08] <timeless> ... up to UAs on what they're willing to deal w/
  2126. # [18:08] <timeless> ... until w/ move to TLS
  2127. # [18:08] <timeless> ... then UAs
  2128. # [18:08] <timeless> ... if you provide options, the option will be "no", because they won't get Netflix
  2129. # [18:08] <timeless> ... platform segmentation, or no security/privacy
  2130. # [18:08] <timeless> ... even if someone has an unclearable ID in TV
  2131. # [18:09] * Quits: wooglae1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  2132. # [18:09] <timeless> ... think they should use https: they add that, try to use it
  2133. # [18:09] <timeless> ... netflix doesn't work, they remove it
  2134. # [18:09] <timeless> ... it goes over the wire
  2135. # [18:09] <markw> q+
  2136. # [18:09] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
  2137. # [18:09] <timeless> ... privacy, no-clearable-id
  2138. # [18:09] <timeless> ... security aspects are hard to define
  2139. # [18:09] <timeless> ... Venues proposed requiring sandboxing
  2140. # [18:09] <timeless> ... no normative ways to address security concerns
  2141. # [18:09] <timeless> ... this is an issue for...
  2142. # [18:10] <timeless> ... generally effort is to require TLS for powerful APIs
  2143. # [18:10] <timeless> ... what we know in historical implementations
  2144. # [18:10] <timeless> ... today ones
  2145. # [18:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  2146. # [18:10] <timeless> ... those are Exceptional vs. anything else that can be implemented in OSS
  2147. # [18:10] <timeless> ack joesteele
  2148. # [18:10] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  2149. # [18:10] <timeless> joesteele: there's at least the bones of a proposal
  2150. # [18:10] <pal> q+
  2151. # [18:10] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
  2152. # [18:10] <timeless> ... origin specific id, so leaking it isn't a risk
  2153. # [18:10] <glenn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332#c123
  2154. # [18:10] <timeless> ... sandbox, normatively spec what it looks like
  2155. # [18:11] <glenn> see above for proposal by Henri
  2156. # [18:11] <timeless> ... proposal, what if we added a normative requirement to the spec
  2157. # [18:11] <timeless> ... that a CDM
  2158. # [18:11] <timeless> ... operating in UA
  2159. # [18:11] <timeless> ... that there need to be a Security Review (possibly source level)
  2160. # [18:11] <timeless> ... of the CDM
  2161. # [18:11] <slightlyoff> q+
  2162. # [18:11] * Zakim sees markw, pal, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
  2163. # [18:11] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2164. # [18:11] <slightlyoff> it seems likely to me that there's a composition problem; e.g., what's allowed in an iframe?
  2165. # [18:11] <timeless> ... that be available to Browser Vendor
  2166. # [18:12] <timeless> ... that's the one who has to make the security+privacy
  2167. # [18:12] <timeless> ... the browser can do whatever they want
  2168. # [18:12] <timeless> ... if the browser vendor isn't able to inspect CDM properly
  2169. # [18:12] <timeless> ... then there's a problem (possibly third party binary)
  2170. # [18:12] <timeless> ... concern for larger community
  2171. # [18:12] <ddorwin> slightlyoff: Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but yes, we probably need to check the full set of frames
  2172. # [18:12] <timeless> ... i want to remove that concern
  2173. # [18:12] <timeless> ... Adobe would be ok w/ that requirement
  2174. # [18:12] <timeless> ack markw
  2175. # [18:12] * Zakim sees pal, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
  2176. # [18:12] <glenn> another proposal by Anne https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332#c125
  2177. # [18:12] <ddorwin> the current text checks just the document that contains the MediaKeys
  2178. # [18:12] <timeless> markw: i think what joesteele suggested would be a great improvement
  2179. # [18:13] <timeless> ... i'd like to hear if that would be acceptable of the other CDM vendors
  2180. # [18:13] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2181. # [18:13] <timeless> ... hsivonen points out that https: doesn't solve that
  2182. # [18:13] <timeless> ... if people wants to poke holes in CDMs, they can get a publicly trusted Cert and poke
  2183. # [18:13] <slightlyoff> q-
  2184. # [18:13] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
  2185. # [18:13] <timeless> ... we can ensure methods are validated
  2186. # [18:13] <timeless> ... work on what sandboxing means
  2187. # [18:13] <timeless> ... privileges no greater than those of renders
  2188. # [18:13] <timeless> ... we need to do work, but there's a way forward
  2189. # [18:13] <ddorwin> HTTPS prevents injection (even of other HTTPS origins)
  2190. # [18:13] <timeless> ack pal
  2191. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2192. # [18:14] <timeless> pal: i want to address markw
  2193. # [18:14] <joesteele> just to be clear the Security Review would need to cover both security and privacy concerns
  2194. # [18:14] <timeless> ... you can specify guidelines that lead to the right privacy/security attributes
  2195. # [18:14] <jdsmith> q+
  2196. # [18:14] * Zakim sees jdsmith on the speaker queue
  2197. # [18:14] <timeless> ... you can normatively specify attributes leading to the right requirements
  2198. # [18:14] <markw> @ddorwin: Henri explains it better than me, but it's not hard to an attacker to trick people into visiting their HTTPS site
  2199. # [18:14] <timeless> ddorwin: i'd welcome those requirements
  2200. # [18:14] <timeless> ... i don't know them
  2201. # [18:14] <timeless> ... the problem is that the issue we have is robustness
  2202. # [18:15] <timeless> ... and robustness is out of scope
  2203. # [18:15] <timeless> ... normatively securing them would probably break most impls
  2204. # [18:15] * Quits: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2205. # [18:15] <timeless> pal: that's true for any technology integrated by UA vendor
  2206. # [18:15] <markw> q+
  2207. # [18:15] * Zakim sees jdsmith, markw on the speaker queue
  2208. # [18:15] <timeless> ... UA has to do due-diligence to ensure technology isn't nefarious
  2209. # [18:15] <timeless> ... video driver could be nefarious
  2210. # [18:15] <timeless> ack jdsmith
  2211. # [18:15] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  2212. # [18:15] <timeless> jdsmith: in favor of Defense in Depth
  2213. # [18:16] <timeless> ... counter measure to ID
  2214. # [18:16] <timeless> ... may be difficult to anticipate all gaps
  2215. # [18:16] <timeless> ... but applying https: on the connection itself is more likely to be secure
  2216. # [18:16] <timeless> ... question is how secure do we want to be
  2217. # [18:16] * Travis needs to run. Waves at the room. See you all next time!
  2218. # [18:16] * Travis darobin: I've got a test suite update coming for you soon.
  2219. # [18:16] <timeless> ... do what joesteele proposed
  2220. # [18:16] <timeless> ... some potential that https: could add additional protection
  2221. # [18:16] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2222. # [18:16] <timeless> ... over time, we should be trying to migrate our implementations toward
  2223. # [18:17] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  2224. # [18:17] <timeless> paulc: didn't annevk suggest that in a bug comments?
  2225. # [18:17] <ddorwin> q+
  2226. # [18:17] * Zakim sees markw, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2227. # [18:17] <timeless> ... ok to use today, but at some point in the future, a clock clicks
  2228. # [18:17] <timeless> ... and in order to conform you'd need to use https
  2229. # [18:17] <joesteele> q+
  2230. # [18:17] * Zakim sees markw, ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2231. # [18:17] <timeless> ack markw
  2232. # [18:17] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2233. # [18:17] <timeless> markw: absolutely
  2234. # [18:17] <timeless> ... perfectly reasonable to discuss how that migration would happen over time
  2235. # [18:17] <timeless> ... one to have gradual migration switching over one-by-one
  2236. # [18:17] <timeless> ... frog doesn't notice water is getting warmer, problem is solved
  2237. # [18:18] <timeless> ... but migrating 10s of percent, video is US peak 50% of traffic
  2238. # [18:18] <timeless> ... can't happen overnight
  2239. # [18:18] <timeless> ... involves 10s of ISPs
  2240. # [18:18] <timeless> ... slight economic problem
  2241. # [18:18] <timeless> ... from browser's perspective, you've solved problems for all sites
  2242. # [18:18] <joesteele> ISPs and CDNs are involved
  2243. # [18:18] <timeless> ... but for a single site that's already solved it
  2244. # [18:18] <timeless> ... it's marginal benefit
  2245. # [18:18] <slightlyoff> q+
  2246. # [18:18] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
  2247. # [18:19] <timeless> ... difference of who benefits, who pays
  2248. # [18:19] <timeless> ... needs some coordination
  2249. # [18:19] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  2250. # [18:19] * Zakim sees joesteele, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
  2251. # [18:19] <timeless> ddorwin: web in general is moving to secure origins
  2252. # [18:19] <timeless> ... that may happen w/in impls before any date we set
  2253. # [18:19] <timeless> ... not just in EME
  2254. # [18:19] <timeless> ... even though Geolocation and getUserMedia have shipped
  2255. # [18:19] <timeless> ... browsers will flip over
  2256. # [18:19] <timeless> ... sites need to adapt
  2257. # [18:19] <timeless> ... Domenic mentioned this
  2258. # [18:19] <timeless> ... annevk has a proposal w/ messages
  2259. # [18:20] <timeless> ... get security, while allowing sites to adapt
  2260. # [18:20] <timeless> ... markw mentioned 30-50% server hit
  2261. # [18:20] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2262. # [18:20] <timeless> ... that's not for all/most servers
  2263. # [18:20] <timeless> ... they've done a job of optimizing things
  2264. # [18:20] <timeless> ... we're not seeing nearly that
  2265. # [18:20] <timeless> ... i'm trying to get numbers released
  2266. # [18:20] <timeless> ... we're serving video traffic over https:, not un-doable
  2267. # [18:20] <timeless> ... things that need to happen
  2268. # [18:20] <timeless> ... let's try to solve those
  2269. # [18:20] <timeless> ... netflix can help lead the way there, we (google) would be happy to help
  2270. # [18:20] <pal> q+
  2271. # [18:20] * Zakim sees joesteele, slightlyoff, pal on the speaker queue
  2272. # [18:21] <timeless> ... saying we can't do anything will help us
  2273. # [18:21] <timeless> ack joesteele
  2274. # [18:21] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, pal on the speaker queue
  2275. # [18:21] * Quits: emu_ (~emu@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  2276. # [18:21] <timeless> joesteele: Adobe is generally in favor of moving the web towards more security
  2277. # [18:21] <timeless> ... not owning browsers ourselves, we'd like public by-when-date
  2278. # [18:21] <timeless> ... that would be useful from the viewpoint of talking to our customers
  2279. # [18:21] <pal> q-
  2280. # [18:21] * Zakim sees slightlyoff on the speaker queue
  2281. # [18:21] <timeless> ... to say "by-the-way, we won't be able to support your http server by XXXX"
  2282. # [18:22] <timeless> paulc: HTTP-BIZ in IETF had the opportunity to make https: mandatory
  2283. # [18:22] <markw> q+
  2284. # [18:22] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, markw on the speaker queue
  2285. # [18:22] <timeless> ... they chose not to
  2286. # [18:22] <Yves> s/biz/bis
  2287. # [18:22] <wseltzer> q+
  2288. # [18:22] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, markw, wseltzer on the speaker queue
  2289. # [18:22] <timeless> ... IETF to me, from a distance
  2290. # [18:22] <timeless> s/BIZ/BIS/
  2291. # [18:22] <timeless> ... chose not to, which seems like it isn't the time
  2292. # [18:22] <timeless> s|s/biz/bis|
  2293. # [18:22] <timeless> ... statement that it's going to happen wholesale
  2294. # [18:22] <timeless> ... why didn't it happen in HTTP-BIS?
  2295. # [18:22] <timeless> ... i wish i had mark here
  2296. # [18:22] * Quits: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2297. # [18:23] <timeless> slightlyoff: game theory works against anybody but a particularly motivated vendor
  2298. # [18:23] <MarkVickers_> q+
  2299. # [18:23] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, markw, wseltzer, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  2300. # [18:23] <timeless> ... we'll pay a large price from a Chrome perspective when we try to move users away from http:
  2301. # [18:23] <timeless> ... because users will be unhappy
  2302. # [18:23] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2303. # [18:23] <timeless> ... it's a cost w/ low return in the short run
  2304. # [18:23] <timeless> ... i'm sympathetic to markw 's concerns
  2305. # [18:23] <timeless> ... maybe if we could identify privacy concerns
  2306. # [18:23] <timeless> ... content is encrypted
  2307. # [18:24] <timeless> ... parent page over https: isn't a concern
  2308. # [18:24] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2309. # [18:24] <timeless> ... serving media itself will cost large amounts of money
  2310. # [18:24] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
  2311. # [18:24] * yosuke s/mark here/mark (mnot) here/
  2312. # [18:24] <timeless> ... can we discuss what mixed-content means in this scenario
  2313. # [18:24] <timeless> ... discuss goals in privacy design
  2314. # [18:24] <timeless> ack slightlyoff
  2315. # [18:24] * Zakim sees markw, wseltzer, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  2316. # [18:24] <timeless> ack mark
  2317. # [18:24] * Zakim sees markw, wseltzer on the speaker queue
  2318. # [18:24] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
  2319. # [18:24] * timeless @$@$@
  2320. # [18:24] <timeless> markw: i agree w/ that
  2321. # [18:24] <timeless> q+ MarkVickers_
  2322. # [18:24] * Zakim sees markw, wseltzer, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  2323. # [18:24] <timeless> ... serving parent page over https, we'd love to
  2324. # [18:25] <timeless> ... but then the media would have to come over https
  2325. # [18:25] <timeless> ack markw
  2326. # [18:25] * Zakim sees wseltzer, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  2327. # [18:25] <timeless> ack wseltzer
  2328. # [18:25] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  2329. # [18:25] <timeless> wseltzer: Wendy Seltzer, W3C
  2330. # [18:25] <timeless> ... hearing about secure-origin discussion in several different groups
  2331. # [18:25] <timeless> ... concern
  2332. # [18:25] * Domenic brb
  2333. # [18:25] <timeless> ... particular threat model that i've heard most compelling
  2334. # [18:25] <timeless> ... connecting to an un-authenticated-origin
  2335. # [18:25] <timeless> ... and permitting active-content
  2336. # [18:25] <timeless> ... that's MITM'd
  2337. # [18:26] <timeless> ... allowing it to run content
  2338. # [18:26] <timeless> ... exposing client to risk from who knows where
  2339. # [18:26] <timeless> ... running on your network connection
  2340. # [18:26] <timeless> ... threat model that
  2341. # [18:26] <timeless> ... as W3C, looking to work w/ TAG, and Security Group
  2342. # [18:26] <timeless> ... to more broadly address it
  2343. # [18:26] <timeless> ... not just spec by spec basis
  2344. # [18:26] <timeless> ... unfortunately, discussion is just beginning
  2345. # [18:26] <timeless> ... when it came up earlier in WebAppSec
  2346. # [18:27] <timeless> ... i hope we can bring together the people to think wholistically on how to improve ecosystem
  2347. # [18:27] <timeless> ack MarkVickers_
  2348. # [18:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2349. # [18:27] <timeless> MarkVickers_: two things
  2350. # [18:27] <timeless> Zakim, close the queue
  2351. # [18:27] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is closed
  2352. # [18:27] <timeless> ... I want to support adding things that mandate end-to-end security
  2353. # [18:27] <timeless> ... nothing wrong w/ when we plan to move to https
  2354. # [18:27] <timeless> ... we have to do this
  2355. # [18:27] <timeless> ... secure PII on the web
  2356. # [18:27] <timeless> ... to do that, we do very very detailed investigation of our CDMs/...
  2357. # [18:28] <timeless> ... supporting what markw said
  2358. # [18:28] <timeless> ... let's get them in there
  2359. # [18:28] <timeless> ... regardless of https: or not
  2360. # [18:28] <timeless> ... idea that there could be an exception to https: origin property
  2361. # [18:28] <timeless> ... problem is video data
  2362. # [18:28] <timeless> ... it isn't executable code
  2363. # [18:28] <timeless> ... it's already encrypted
  2364. # [18:28] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2365. # [18:28] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  2366. # [18:28] <timeless> ... massive amount of (50%) Internet bandwidth
  2367. # [18:28] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
  2368. # [18:29] <timeless> ... in general, exceptions to rules are problematic
  2369. # [18:29] <timeless> ... it doesn't have privacy problems
  2370. # [18:29] <timeless> ... bandwidth-cost issue, if we could make an exception to that
  2371. # [18:29] <timeless> ... it'd make things go more quickly
  2372. # [18:29] <timeless> q?
  2373. # [18:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2374. # [18:29] <ddorwin> Not: Whether the video is already encrypted is irrelevant. It is still observable and fingerprintable
  2375. # [18:29] <timeless> paulc: we agreed to break for coffee at 10:30am
  2376. # [18:29] <ddorwin> s/Not: /Note: /
  2377. # [18:29] <timeless> ... lots of concrete suggestions
  2378. # [18:29] <timeless> ... good to put a short summary of suggestions into the bug
  2379. # [18:29] <timeless> ... slightlyoff 's suggestion
  2380. # [18:29] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2381. # [18:30] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  2382. # [18:30] <timeless> ... was along the lines of what markw said and what MarkVickers_ supported
  2383. # [18:30] <timeless> ... break for Coffee
  2384. # [18:30] <timeless> ... and switch over to the top of the bugs
  2385. # [18:30] <timeless> [ Coffee break ]
  2386. # [18:30] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  2387. # [18:30] * Domenic back
  2388. # [18:30] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
  2389. # [18:31] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2390. # [18:31] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
  2391. # [18:31] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
  2392. # [18:31] * Domenic sounds like the TAG-ey bugs are over with?
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  2397. # [18:34] * Domenic taking off; thanks all! Very productive session! Will lurk, so ping me if I can be of help.
  2398. # [18:34] <Zakim> -Domenic
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  2410. # [18:44] <Zakim> -BobLund
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  2415. # [18:48] <MarkVickers_> Regarding drowns note above: I agree that there is privacy value in using HTTPS for encrypted content. I was making a crawl-walk-run argument. We could more quickly move the non-video content to HTTPS as an intermediate stage towards all content over HTTPS.
  2416. # [18:51] * Joins: Zefa_ (~Zefa@public.cloak)
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  2425. # [18:59] * timeless Domenic please call back
  2426. # [18:59] * Joins: markw (~markw@public.cloak)
  2427. # [18:59] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
  2428. # [18:59] <timeless> Topic: Updates to bugs w/ F2F
  2429. # [18:59] <timeless> paulc: editor's suggested a different approach instead of top down
  2430. # [18:59] <timeless> ... but they're not ready
  2431. # [19:00] * Joins: k_takabayashi (~k_takabayashi@public.cloak)
  2432. # [19:00] <timeless> Topic: Media TF next F2F
  2433. # [19:00] <timeless> paulc: does Media TF need another F2F?
  2434. # [19:01] <timeless> ... instead of waiting until next April
  2435. # [19:01] <timeless> ... if we spent a whole day somewhere
  2436. # [19:01] <timeless> ... maybe longer than one day
  2437. # [19:01] <timeless> ... would that get us to the point where
  2438. # [19:01] <timeless> ... maybe break down into groups
  2439. # [19:01] * Domenic timeless: I unfortunately have an AB+TAG meeting right now; is there something in particular I can help with?
  2440. # [19:01] <timeless> ... and get progress
  2441. # [19:01] * timeless ddorwin wanted you on for something
  2442. # [19:01] * timeless when do you resume
  2443. # [19:01] <timeless> jdsmith: it'd be useful
  2444. # [19:01] <timeless> pal: do you think it would be useful
  2445. # [19:01] <timeless> paulc: if we identified people w/ proposals
  2446. # [19:02] <timeless> ... and/or dedicate time to develop on the fly
  2447. # [19:02] <joesteele> I think it would be useful
  2448. # [19:02] <timeless> pal: exactly
  2449. # [19:02] <timeless> ... extremely helpful, going into that discussion
  2450. # [19:02] <ddorwin> domenic: That's probably okay. timeless: Thanks.
  2451. # [19:02] <timeless> ... if someone made a proposal on each open issue
  2452. # [19:02] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  2453. # [19:02] <timeless> ddorwin: this has been more productive and last fractured than email
  2454. # [19:02] <timeless> ... i'd prefer that as well
  2455. # [19:02] <timeless> ... i'm happy w/ a F2F
  2456. # [19:03] <timeless> ... one thing for the group, don't wait for milestones
  2457. # [19:03] <timeless> ... Tuesday morning is popular for bug updates
  2458. # [19:03] <timeless> ... i'd like something more fluid
  2459. # [19:03] <timeless> ... we don't need Tuesday morning (or Pacific time)
  2460. # [19:03] <timeless> ... but i'd like more continuous involvement
  2461. # [19:03] <timeless> paulc: i won't disagree
  2462. # [19:03] <timeless> ... i've tried to get people off 6am Pacific bug fixes
  2463. # [19:03] <timeless> ... not sure how to push people to do what you wawnt
  2464. # [19:04] <timeless> MarkVickers_: i'm for another F2F
  2465. # [19:04] <timeless> ... anytime/anyplace
  2466. # [19:04] * Joins: yinagaki (~yinagaki@public.cloak)
  2467. # [19:04] <timeless> paulc: pal suggested spread them out
  2468. # [19:04] <timeless> ... and/or have time to develop proposals on the spot
  2469. # [19:04] <timeless> ... problem w/ allocating all morning on a discussion
  2470. # [19:04] <timeless> ... 90mins on TAG bugs
  2471. # [19:04] <timeless> ... we're still surface level
  2472. # [19:04] <timeless> pal: hard for a group to just open a bug and get to a point w/o any prep
  2473. # [19:04] <timeless> ... key is to have strawman proposal
  2474. # [19:05] <timeless> ... even if it's horribly wrong
  2475. # [19:05] <ddorwin> q+
  2476. # [19:05] * Zakim whispers to ddorwin that the speaker queue has been closed
  2477. # [19:05] * joesteele Hawaii is nice for a F2F :-)
  2478. # [19:05] <timeless> paulc: rubys, "the way to find and answer is to say something that's wrong"
  2479. # [19:05] * Joins: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak)
  2480. # [19:05] <timeless> Zakim, open the queue
  2481. # [19:05] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
  2482. # [19:05] <timeless> ddorwin: trying to move forward in an iterative approach
  2483. # [19:05] <timeless> ... requestMediaKeySystemAccess
  2484. # [19:06] <timeless> ... we'll iterate
  2485. # [19:06] <timeless> ... i'd like smaller bugs
  2486. # [19:06] <timeless> ... yeah, that's a problem, file a bug
  2487. # [19:06] <timeless> ... please give me text to add
  2488. # [19:06] <markw> q+
  2489. # [19:06] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  2490. # [19:06] <MarkVickers_> q+
  2491. # [19:06] * Zakim sees markw, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  2492. # [19:06] <timeless> ... discuss this small issue
  2493. # [19:06] <timeless> ... break things down into manageable things
  2494. # [19:06] <timeless> ... move forward, even if we have to change
  2495. # [19:06] <timeless> pal: some of these bugs are incredibly broad and vague
  2496. # [19:06] <timeless> ... in discussion spawn three other issues
  2497. # [19:06] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  2498. # [19:06] * Joins: jerome_ (~jerome@public.cloak)
  2499. # [19:07] <timeless> paulc: usually in bugzilla
  2500. # [19:07] <timeless> ... you have a bug, you file 3 bugs, mark dependencies
  2501. # [19:07] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2502. # [19:07] <timeless> ... and close the dependencies, and then revisit and close the original
  2503. # [19:07] <timeless> MarkVickers_: what's called for
  2504. # [19:07] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
  2505. # [19:07] <timeless> ... make clear text-change is strawman for "cunningham's law internet"
  2506. # [19:07] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2507. # [19:07] <timeless> ... spec changes for promoting discussion
  2508. # [19:07] <timeless> ... spec changes for completing discussion
  2509. # [19:07] <joesteele> s/is strawman/as strawman/
  2510. # [19:08] <timeless> markw: avoid doing things for obviously controversial
  2511. # [19:08] <timeless> ... what would it look like on github?
  2512. # [19:08] <timeless> pal: branching
  2513. # [19:08] <timeless> ... or proposal in plain text in bugs
  2514. # [19:08] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
  2515. # [19:08] <timeless> ... problem is ddorwin is 99% right
  2516. # [19:09] <timeless> ... you have to lower your percentages
  2517. # [19:09] <timeless> https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/pull/48
  2518. # [19:09] <timeless> https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/pull/49
  2519. # [19:09] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2520. # [19:10] <timeless> paulc: html5 spec after html5 will probably be done in git
  2521. # [19:10] <timeless> ... github or similar
  2522. # [19:10] <timeless> ... i don't want to drill on that today
  2523. # [19:10] <timeless> ... great lunchtime conversation
  2524. # [19:10] <timeless> ... jdsmith responded to my list
  2525. # [19:11] <timeless> ... pal suggested dealing w/ proposals that are presented
  2526. # [19:11] <timeless> i/48/[ Examples of what github can look like ]
  2527. # [19:11] <timeless> topic: Bug 26776 Diagnosing and resolving CDM errors needs a numeric systemCode (deleted with MediaKeyError)
  2528. # [19:11] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26776
  2529. # [19:11] <timeless> paulc: jdsmith will submit a proposal in time for F2F meeting.
  2530. # [19:12] <timeless> jdsmith: previously
  2531. # [19:12] <timeless> i|pre|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26776#c9 "Bug 26776 comment 9"|
  2532. # [19:12] * Joins: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  2533. # [19:12] * Quits: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2534. # [19:12] <timeless> ... looking for key-specific-error-codes
  2535. # [19:12] <timeless> ... i know there was a discussion about key-status
  2536. # [19:12] <timeless> ... looking for aspect of it
  2537. # [19:13] <timeless> ... benefiting from specific error code
  2538. # [19:13] <timeless> ... talked to ddorwin about philosophical Q, not discussed as a group
  2539. # [19:13] <timeless> ... do we want CDM specific error codes
  2540. # [19:13] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  2541. # [19:13] <timeless> ... or drive to standardized error codes?
  2542. # [19:13] * Quits: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2543. # [19:13] <timeless> ... is my proposal reasonable/acceptable to support, or not
  2544. # [19:14] <ddorwin> q+
  2545. # [19:14] * Zakim sees markw, MarkVickers_, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2546. # [19:14] <timeless> o "acquired",
  2547. # [19:14] <timeless> o "expired",
  2548. # [19:14] <timeless> o "notyetvalid",
  2549. # [19:14] <timeless> o "renewalfailed",
  2550. # [19:14] <timeless> o "playbacksexceeded",
  2551. # [19:14] <timeless> o "authorizationfailed",
  2552. # [19:14] <timeless> o "outputnotallowed",
  2553. # [19:14] <timeless> o "downscaling",
  2554. # [19:14] <timeless> o "released"
  2555. # [19:14] <timeless> jdsmith: adding a specific code
  2556. # [19:14] <timeless> ... interested to flesh out the list
  2557. # [19:14] <joesteele> q+
  2558. # [19:14] * Zakim sees markw, MarkVickers_, ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2559. # [19:14] <timeless> paulc: datatype of "systemcode"
  2560. # [19:14] <timeless> jdsmith: it's a number
  2561. # [19:15] <timeless> paulc: where does it come form?
  2562. # [19:15] <timeless> s/form/from/
  2563. # [19:15] <timeless> jdsmith: it's out of band
  2564. # [19:15] <timeless> ... you have a range of problems that can occur
  2565. # [19:15] <timeless> i|you|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26372 "Bug 26372" - Report issues/events not related to a specific method call|
  2566. # [19:16] <timeless> paulc: so, do we want CDM specific error codes
  2567. # [19:16] <timeless> ... for debugging?
  2568. # [19:16] <timeless> ... for end user?
  2569. # [19:16] <timeless> jdsmith: for initial implementation
  2570. # [19:16] <timeless> ... they were important for telemetry
  2571. # [19:16] <timeless> ddorwin: 2 issues
  2572. # [19:16] <timeless> ... 1. how to report this (technical)
  2573. # [19:16] <timeless> ... 2. does the platform want to let us expose non-standardized values (TAG feedback)
  2574. # [19:16] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2575. # [19:16] <timeless> ... we have to deal w/ this
  2576. # [19:17] <timeless> ... 1st isn't worth dealing w/
  2577. # [19:17] <timeless> ... developer debuggability is in javascript-console
  2578. # [19:17] <ddorwin> ack ddo
  2579. # [19:17] * Zakim sees markw, MarkVickers_, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2580. # [19:17] <timeless> s/TAG/annevk/
  2581. # [19:17] * Joins: yohsumi (~yohsumi@public.cloak)
  2582. # [19:17] <MarkVickers_> q-
  2583. # [19:17] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2584. # [19:17] <timeless> ack markw
  2585. # [19:17] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  2586. # [19:17] <timeless> markw: we should be clear
  2587. # [19:17] <timeless> ... if we expose codes like this, they shouldn't drive client script
  2588. # [19:18] <timeless> ... if we want to let the script drive actions, that should be standardized
  2589. # [19:18] <timeless> ... then there's exposing system specific
  2590. # [19:18] <timeless> s/fic/fics/
  2591. # [19:18] <timeless> ... that's an antipattern
  2592. # [19:18] <timeless> ... but explicit errors from IE etc was really important for us to debug
  2593. # [19:18] <ddorwin> Anne's comments: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25896#c5
  2594. # [19:18] <timeless> ... errors are specific to CDMs
  2595. # [19:18] <timeless> q?
  2596. # [19:18] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  2597. # [19:18] <timeless> ack joesteele
  2598. # [19:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2599. # [19:18] <timeless> joesteele: i'd like to have this
  2600. # [19:19] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2601. # [19:19] <timeless> ... system-code-level available for debugging purposes
  2602. # [19:19] <timeless> ... sensitive to the issue of not having a common way to use these
  2603. # [19:19] <timeless> ... keysystem specific, platform specific
  2604. # [19:19] <timeless> ... would it be good enough if this was in javascript console, but not programmatically to the application
  2605. # [19:19] <timeless> [ markw shook his head -- no ]
  2606. # [19:19] <timeless> paulc: in an open standard like EME
  2607. # [19:20] <timeless> ... returning a proprietary specific code is bad
  2608. # [19:20] <ddorwin> q+
  2609. # [19:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2610. # [19:20] <timeless> ... but i can point to IETF specs
  2611. # [19:20] <timeless> ... SQL state
  2612. # [19:20] <timeless> ... there's an implementation defined range
  2613. # [19:20] <ddorwin> I think Paul said ISO
  2614. # [19:20] <timeless> s/IETF/ISO/
  2615. # [19:20] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2616. # [19:20] <timeless> ... and the SQL spec says "don't ever take action on one of those values"
  2617. # [19:20] <timeless> ... ISO standards say that because it's really useful
  2618. # [19:20] * Quits: jamesx (~jamesx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2619. # [19:21] <timeless> ... if you get underflow in a phenomenally complex piece of code, it can be very very useful
  2620. # [19:21] <timeless> ... used by developers when they're developing their code
  2621. # [19:21] <timeless> ... i'm less worried about implementations exposing beyond the standard
  2622. # [19:21] <timeless> ... just paulc's personal opinion
  2623. # [19:21] <timeless> ddorwin: argument is that should be the exception message
  2624. # [19:21] <timeless> ... not a number
  2625. # [19:21] <timeless> ... that's why i wanted TAG to be here
  2626. # [19:22] * timeless Domenic
  2627. # [19:22] <timeless> ... i wanted declarative text
  2628. # [19:22] <timeless> ... is there a way that an application can't do this
  2629. # [19:22] <timeless> ... but the server needs to see the error code
  2630. # [19:22] * Quits: tomoyuki (~Tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
  2631. # [19:22] * Joins: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak)
  2632. # [19:22] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  2633. # [19:22] <timeless> paulc: sentiment of the room?
  2634. # [19:22] * Joins: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2635. # [19:22] <timeless> ... straw poll, good facility to have?
  2636. # [19:23] <timeless> [ 7 hands -- good ]
  2637. # [19:23] <timeless> [ 0 hands for don't ]
  2638. # [19:23] <timeless> paulc: jdsmith, make a concrete proposal
  2639. # [19:23] <timeless> ... and make sure annevk's aware of your proposal
  2640. # [19:23] <ddorwin> and the TAG
  2641. # [19:23] <timeless> topic: Bug 26887 Allowing license servers and CDMs to control data persistence and secure release
  2642. # [19:23] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26887
  2643. # [19:24] <timeless> paulc: Jerry to update proposal based on previous TF discussions.
  2644. # [19:24] <timeless> i|Jerry|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26887#c13 "Comment 13" Jerry Smith 2014-10-30 22:32:25 UTC|
  2645. # [19:24] <timeless> jdsmith: we had a discussion on a Tuesday call
  2646. # [19:25] <timeless> ... i listed feedback in comment 13
  2647. # [19:25] <timeless> ... strong input from apps to have influence over data storage
  2648. # [19:25] <timeless> ... apps in control over new keys/reuse
  2649. # [19:25] <timeless> ... we'd like to
  2650. # [19:25] <timeless> ... session-type temp/persistent, we can retain
  2651. # [19:25] <timeless> ... instead of app generate request for license w/ init data
  2652. # [19:26] <timeless> ... instead let app load local license w/ same info
  2653. # [19:26] <timeless> ... not exact
  2654. # [19:26] <timeless> ... it gives app control
  2655. # [19:26] <timeless> ... relatively transparent way
  2656. # [19:26] <timeless> ... they're not obligated to associate media-key-session-ids with the session itself
  2657. # [19:26] <timeless> ... there's more to it, and i can let others talk
  2658. # [19:26] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2659. # [19:26] <timeless> ... we retained retrieving keys/removing
  2660. # [19:26] <timeless> ... we also added remove key methods
  2661. # [19:27] <timeless> ddorwin: thanks for taking that feedback, noting it, addressing it
  2662. # [19:27] <timeless> ... i like this better than the last one
  2663. # [19:27] <timeless> ... i commented on specific apis
  2664. # [19:27] <timeless> ... markw addressed... i didn't read through all of his comment
  2665. # [19:27] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2666. # [19:28] <timeless> ... markw indicated PlayReady doesn't let you have the whole id
  2667. # [19:28] * SteveF_ is now known as SteveF
  2668. # [19:28] <timeless> ... might be multiple sessionids
  2669. # [19:28] <timeless> ... what happens
  2670. # [19:28] <timeless> ... app might want to load specifically one id
  2671. # [19:28] <timeless> ... if we have retrieve-by-id, let you get whatever you want from that
  2672. # [19:28] <markw> q+
  2673. # [19:28] * Zakim sees ddorwin, markw on the speaker queue
  2674. # [19:28] <timeless> ... removeallkeys is odd
  2675. # [19:28] <timeless> ... removekeybykeyids seemed odd
  2676. # [19:28] <joesteele> q+
  2677. # [19:28] * Zakim sees ddorwin, markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2678. # [19:28] <timeless> ... if a license has multiple key ids, it doesn't make sense
  2679. # [19:29] <timeless> ... you can't rip key ids out of licenses
  2680. # [19:29] <timeless> ... loading by init data seems fine
  2681. # [19:29] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2682. # [19:29] <timeless> ... in a more pure case, you might get session by init id
  2683. # [19:29] <timeless> ... but that's putting apps through extra work
  2684. # [19:29] <timeless> ... the remove stuff, the way keys are removed is redundant
  2685. # [19:29] <timeless> ... or do on sessions
  2686. # [19:29] <timeless> ... that you can't play back w/ session id is a problem
  2687. # [19:29] <timeless> ... iterate on this
  2688. # [19:30] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  2689. # [19:30] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2690. # [19:30] <timeless> jdsmith: we don't really believe session-id is a good way to map stored keys
  2691. # [19:30] <timeless> ... we'd like to get away from using session-id to manage/retrieve keys
  2692. # [19:30] <timeless> ... that's why new key management api is proposed
  2693. # [19:30] <timeless> ... remove key/session w/ one operation
  2694. # [19:30] <timeless> ... session-id is an arbitrary number
  2695. # [19:30] <timeless> ... happens to get coordinating messages
  2696. # [19:31] <timeless> ... could be multiple messages w/in a key experience
  2697. # [19:31] <ddorwin> q+
  2698. # [19:31] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2699. # [19:31] <timeless> ... not a great identifier for managing stores
  2700. # [19:31] <timeless> ... retained to support Secure-Release UC
  2701. # [19:31] <timeless> ddorwin: we're storing something
  2702. # [19:31] <timeless> ... to retrieve, you need an index
  2703. # [19:31] <timeless> ... ~ IndexedDB, there's an id
  2704. # [19:31] <timeless> ... it's odd that if you had 2, you don't know which you'd get back
  2705. # [19:32] <timeless> ... index is not unique
  2706. # [19:32] <timeless> ... change meaning to clarify
  2707. # [19:32] <timeless> ... seems you should retrieve by id
  2708. # [19:32] <timeless> ... or people might want to
  2709. # [19:32] <timeless> ... more like rental cae
  2710. # [19:32] <timeless> s/cae/case/
  2711. # [19:32] <timeless> ... want to load things, and want to play it
  2712. # [19:32] <timeless> ... change model of EME?
  2713. # [19:32] <timeless> q?
  2714. # [19:32] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2715. # [19:32] <ddorwin> acc ddo
  2716. # [19:32] <ddorwin> ack ddo
  2717. # [19:32] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2718. # [19:32] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  2719. # [19:32] <timeless> ack markw
  2720. # [19:32] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  2721. # [19:32] <timeless> markw: when i looked at this
  2722. # [19:32] <timeless> ... and compare it to our existing api
  2723. # [19:33] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  2724. # [19:33] <timeless> ... you can polyfil it either way
  2725. # [19:33] <timeless> ... functionally it's not very different
  2726. # [19:33] * Joins: jcdufourd (~jcdufourd@public.cloak)
  2727. # [19:33] <timeless> ... they might look different, but they might be the same
  2728. # [19:33] <timeless> ... trouble deciding which is better
  2729. # [19:33] <timeless> ... no really strong reason for choosing one/other
  2730. # [19:33] <timeless> ... need to look for underlying principle
  2731. # [19:33] <timeless> ... polyfill just has a mapping
  2732. # [19:33] <timeless> ... doesn't need to be in a secure boundary
  2733. # [19:33] <timeless> ... could be in js
  2734. # [19:34] <timeless> ... perhaps, pull out keyRelease
  2735. # [19:34] <timeless> ... atm, we're overloading session-id thing
  2736. # [19:34] <timeless> ... from original approach to not define keyRelease
  2737. # [19:34] <timeless> ... now we seem to be moving toward explicit definitions
  2738. # [19:34] <timeless> ack joesteele
  2739. # [19:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2740. # [19:34] <timeless> joesteele: specific example
  2741. # [19:34] <timeless> ... putting aside keyReleae
  2742. # [19:34] <timeless> ... just talking about load
  2743. # [19:34] <timeless> ... spec talks about proprietary PSSHs
  2744. # [19:34] <timeless> s/keyReleae/keyRelease/
  2745. # [19:35] <timeless> ... only way it can do this is via loadSession
  2746. # [19:35] <timeless> ... even if app stores all sessions it had previously acquired keys for
  2747. # [19:35] <timeless> ... app can't decide which session introduced the keys
  2748. # [19:35] <ddorwin> q+
  2749. # [19:35] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2750. # [19:35] <timeless> ... w/o being able to parse RRR
  2751. # [19:35] <timeless> ... blob is not key system specific
  2752. # [19:35] <timeless> ... it can be passed down for playing offline content in a general way
  2753. # [19:36] <timeless> ... this lets app avoid trying to load a lot of sessions and trying each to see if it can play the content
  2754. # [19:36] <timeless> ... session-id for us doesn't make sense for us
  2755. # [19:36] <timeless> ... we don't manage content
  2756. # [19:36] <timeless> ... we could make a shim, as markw suggested
  2757. # [19:36] * Joins: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak)
  2758. # [19:36] <timeless> ... to make an offline content player, i couldn't do it today
  2759. # [19:36] <timeless> ... very difficult
  2760. # [19:36] <timeless> q?
  2761. # [19:36] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2762. # [19:36] * timeless joesteele RRR ??
  2763. # [19:36] <MarkVickers_> q+
  2764. # [19:36] * Zakim sees ddorwin, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  2765. # [19:36] <timeless> paulc: you could do it w/ jdsmith 's proposal
  2766. # [19:36] <timeless> joesteele: specific piece from jdsmith 's proposal that's helpful is load()
  2767. # [19:37] <timeless> ... and clean way
  2768. # [19:37] <timeless> ... if i'm offline, unclear what loadSession
  2769. # [19:37] <timeless> ... can app assume no key request?
  2770. # [19:37] * Joins: tH (~Rob@public.cloak)
  2771. # [19:37] <timeless> ... in load() we could say, only load from keys we have, don't make key requests
  2772. # [19:37] <timeless> q?
  2773. # [19:37] * Zakim sees ddorwin, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
  2774. # [19:37] <markw> q+
  2775. # [19:37] * Zakim sees ddorwin, MarkVickers_, markw on the speaker queue
  2776. # [19:37] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  2777. # [19:37] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_, markw on the speaker queue
  2778. # [19:37] <timeless> ddorwin: CDM needs to know what load() is intended to do
  2779. # [19:37] <timeless> ... alg currently lets it send messages
  2780. # [19:37] <timeless> ... whether it does anything w/ that, who knows
  2781. # [19:38] <timeless> ... you can load things while on line
  2782. # [19:38] <timeless> ... playlimits
  2783. # [19:38] <timeless> ... if you want an "i'm offline boolean"
  2784. # [19:38] <ddorwin> I don't agree that the application does not know which session ID is associated with specific content.
  2785. # [19:38] <timeless> ... you'd probably be ignored
  2786. # [19:38] <timeless> ... i don't agree app doesn't know which session-id's
  2787. # [19:38] <timeless> ... if you downloaded a movie, either got a manifest w/ init data
  2788. # [19:38] <timeless> ... either got need-key or similar events
  2789. # [19:38] <timeless> ... if it's aware of sessions, i don't see why it doesn't know session-ids
  2790. # [19:39] <timeless> ... apps might not want to track that, just want to play
  2791. # [19:39] <ddorwin> If we are going to remove load-by-ID, I think it should be a separate bug.
  2792. # [19:39] <timeless> ... markw 's right, it seems you could polyfill both of these
  2793. # [19:39] <timeless> ... apps might want to do by id
  2794. # [19:39] <timeless> ... If we are going to remove load-by-ID, I think it should be a separate bug.
  2795. # [19:39] <joesteele> s/RRR/the KeySystem specific initData/
  2796. # [19:39] <timeless> ... verify w/ people that they don't need that functionality
  2797. # [19:39] <timeless> ... jdsmith added load-by-data, that i don't quite understand
  2798. # [19:39] <timeless> ... may be specific features we want to talk about
  2799. # [19:39] <timeless> q?
  2800. # [19:39] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_, markw on the speaker queue
  2801. # [19:39] <timeless> ack MarkVickers_
  2802. # [19:39] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  2803. # [19:40] <timeless> MarkVickers_: two styles of interface
  2804. # [19:40] <ddorwin> s/load-by-ID/load-and-use-to-play-by-ID/
  2805. # [19:40] <timeless> ... at least two CDMs would prefer one way, i think that's a natural way to go that way
  2806. # [19:40] <timeless> ... all things otherwise equal
  2807. # [19:40] <timeless> ... i'd favor that, it seems there's agreement
  2808. # [19:40] <timeless> ... i'd favor UC joesteele 's offering on offline
  2809. # [19:40] <joesteele> q+
  2810. # [19:40] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2811. # [19:40] <timeless> ... i think this is resolved
  2812. # [19:40] <timeless> ddorwin: want to remind people that authors have a higher constituency concern than implementers
  2813. # [19:40] <timeless> ... know what authors want
  2814. # [19:41] <timeless> ack markw
  2815. # [19:41] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  2816. # [19:41] <timeless> markw: joesteele gave an example of a UC
  2817. # [19:41] <timeless> ... that he couldn't do
  2818. # [19:41] <timeless> ... you can store map of init to session-id
  2819. # [19:41] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2820. # [19:41] <timeless> ... in IndexedDB
  2821. # [19:41] <timeless> ... you can polyfill
  2822. # [19:41] <timeless> ... it's hard to distinguish
  2823. # [19:41] <timeless> ack joesteele
  2824. # [19:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2825. # [19:41] <timeless> joesteele: a bit of confusion
  2826. # [19:41] <timeless> ... when i say the app doesn't know which keys are required
  2827. # [19:41] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  2828. # [19:41] <timeless> ... not init-data to session-id
  2829. # [19:41] <timeless> ... application given that it could be operating on a number of key systems
  2830. # [19:42] <timeless> ... it doesn't know which keys were delivered in a given session
  2831. # [19:42] <timeless> ... load session could provide a number of keys at once
  2832. # [19:42] <ddorwin> q+
  2833. # [19:42] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2834. # [19:42] <timeless> ... but the app doesn't know which particular id
  2835. # [19:42] <timeless> ... if i can load by init data that i have
  2836. # [19:42] <timeless> ... i know that's supposed to result in a key
  2837. # [19:42] <timeless> ... it's a backwards mapping
  2838. # [19:42] <timeless> ... init-data i know will cause key to be satisfied
  2839. # [19:42] <timeless> ... i'm working through the argument
  2840. # [19:42] * Joins: song_ (~song@public.cloak)
  2841. # [19:43] <timeless> ... i could scan through all the ones i've mapped
  2842. # [19:43] <ddorwin> We don't load by key; we load by session (i.e. license). The application could store a list of session(s) it has for the title.
  2843. # [19:43] <timeless> ... and assuming it matches exactly, then it will work
  2844. # [19:43] <timeless> ... but it's a proprietary format, an exact match may not be possible
  2845. # [19:43] <timeless> q?
  2846. # [19:43] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2847. # [19:43] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  2848. # [19:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2849. # [19:43] <timeless> ddorwin: are you assuming your application doesn't know what it's plaing
  2850. # [19:43] <timeless> s/ing/ying/
  2851. # [19:43] <timeless> ... or what it played previously
  2852. # [19:43] <timeless> ... you got an encrypted event, now you're trying to find a license
  2853. # [19:43] <MarkVickers_> I agree with David that we must prioritize application needs over implementation needs, what I said is that if either style of API is neutral for applications, then implementation preferences should be considered
  2854. # [19:43] <timeless> joesteele: i have streams A, and streams B
  2855. # [19:44] * Quits: song (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2856. # [19:44] <timeless> ... i play A, and then get a key that lets me play A+B
  2857. # [19:44] <timeless> ... i can do loadkey
  2858. # [19:44] <timeless> ... i have to do an exact match
  2859. # [19:44] <timeless> ... it may fail
  2860. # [19:44] <timeless> ddorwin: not the model i've thought about
  2861. # [19:44] <timeless> ... i want to play Wizard of Oz
  2862. # [19:44] <timeless> ... i have it, metadata of it
  2863. # [19:44] <timeless> ... one requires one session, or a list
  2864. # [19:44] <timeless> ... user clicks play, puts media in
  2865. # [19:45] <timeless> ... calls load session
  2866. # [19:45] <timeless> ... handle encrypted
  2867. # [19:45] <timeless> ... or request session, preemptively loading
  2868. # [19:45] <timeless> ... that's the model i'm thinking of
  2869. # [19:45] <timeless> ... yes weird things w/ PSSHs
  2870. # [19:45] <timeless> ... not thought of that
  2871. # [19:45] <timeless> ... not clear to me, esp w/ proprietary PSSHs
  2872. # [19:45] <timeless> ... that even CDM knows
  2873. # [19:45] <timeless> ... PSSH doesn't need to have all the keys
  2874. # [19:45] <timeless> ... servers know
  2875. # [19:45] <timeless> ... potentially a flawed design
  2876. # [19:45] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2877. # [19:45] <timeless> ... --- what can you do
  2878. # [19:46] <timeless> ... if you're trying to load
  2879. # [19:46] <timeless> ... --- very different
  2880. # [19:46] <timeless> ... i want to parse init data, figure out which keys it needs, and try to find them
  2881. # [19:46] <timeless> ... different from retrieval by init data
  2882. # [19:46] <timeless> ... i think if we don't do that, we have other issues
  2883. # [19:46] <timeless> q?
  2884. # [19:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2885. # [19:46] <timeless> paulc: next steps?
  2886. # [19:46] <timeless> ... beauty context?
  2887. # [19:46] <ddorwin> q+
  2888. # [19:46] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2889. # [19:46] <timeless> ... markw suggested that
  2890. # [19:46] <timeless> s/ext/est/
  2891. # [19:47] <timeless> jdsmith: reloading license w/o cross mapping
  2892. # [19:47] <timeless> ... hadn't thought that init data might not be unique/match particular content
  2893. # [19:47] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  2894. # [19:47] <joesteele> I am happy to support both models -- but if we only support one -- the initData model is more flexible
  2895. # [19:47] <timeless> ... heard ddorwin that reloading based on session should be in a different bug
  2896. # [19:47] <timeless> ... didn't hear loading local licenses by init data
  2897. # [19:47] <timeless> ... as problematic
  2898. # [19:47] * Joins: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
  2899. # [19:47] <timeless> paulc: you heard support on that
  2900. # [19:47] <ddorwin> I'd argue the initData model is less exact and more difficult to reason about
  2901. # [19:48] <timeless> ... refactoring so that's done in this, or another
  2902. # [19:48] <joesteele> we can add a separate bug for the "I am offline" issue
  2903. # [19:48] <timeless> ddorwin: every time initData comes up, there are holes
  2904. # [19:48] <timeless> ... always problem we have
  2905. # [19:48] <joesteele> q+
  2906. # [19:48] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
  2907. # [19:48] <timeless> ... a) why I support session-id
  2908. # [19:48] <timeless> ... why we should solve corner cases
  2909. # [19:48] <timeless> ... i recognize app doesn't want to store in indexedDB, just want to play it
  2910. # [19:49] <timeless> ... in those cases, the load you proposed makes sense
  2911. # [19:49] <timeless> ... yes broad support, still concerns
  2912. # [19:49] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  2913. # [19:49] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  2914. # [19:49] <timeless> q- joesteele
  2915. # [19:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2916. # [19:49] <timeless> topic: Bug 24082 Several issues discussed in the TF point to the need for defined extensibility points in EME
  2917. # [19:49] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24082
  2918. # [19:49] <ddorwin> also, you can map imprecise on top of precise but not vice versa
  2919. # [19:49] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  2920. # [19:49] <timeless> paulc: Jerry is to discuss this item with Adrian.
  2921. # [19:49] <timeless> s/MarkVickers_/MarkVickers/G
  2922. # [19:50] <timeless> jdsmith: this bug
  2923. # [19:50] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak)
  2924. # [19:50] <timeless> i|bug|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24082#c14 "Comment 14" Jerry Smith 2014-10-31 15:21:33 UTC|
  2925. # [19:50] <timeless> ... currently WONTFIX
  2926. # [19:50] <timeless> ... websites might try to do extensions on top of EME
  2927. # [19:50] <timeless> ... we had a mechanism createCDMdata
  2928. # [19:50] * timeless ??
  2929. # [19:50] * MarkVickers_ is now known as MarkVickers
  2930. # [19:50] <joesteele> q+
  2931. # [19:50] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  2932. # [19:50] <timeless> ... to allow passing license data back to license server
  2933. # [19:51] <ddorwin> It's an interoperable problem and layering problem.
  2934. # [19:51] <timeless> ... viewed as an opportunity for interoperability problem
  2935. # [19:51] <timeless> ... haven't made a conscious choice to lock down
  2936. # [19:51] <timeless> ... so there are no viable ways to extend it
  2937. # [19:51] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2938. # [19:51] <timeless> ... so if they want to work around, it isn't support by us
  2939. # [19:51] <timeless> ... or try to offer a constrained mechanism
  2940. # [19:52] <timeless> ... so we could deprecate a specific thing and close the extension mechanism
  2941. # [19:52] <timeless> ... if done in an unspecified way, we won't have that ability
  2942. # [19:52] <timeless> ack joesteele
  2943. # [19:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2944. # [19:52] <timeless> joesteele: apologize for reopening
  2945. # [19:53] <ddorwin> If you extend an API, you run the risk that you will be broken in the future. More incentive not to extend.
  2946. # [19:53] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
  2947. # [19:53] <timeless> ... it raises a concern to me, as jdsmith was saying
  2948. # [19:53] <timeless> ... even if we support all UCs as defined now
  2949. # [19:53] <ddorwin> q+
  2950. # [19:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  2951. # [19:53] <timeless> ... there may be new UCs that require extension points
  2952. # [19:53] <timeless> scribe: joesteele
  2953. # [19:53] <adrianba> q+
  2954. # [19:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba on the speaker queue
  2955. # [19:53] <joesteele> paulc: we would come back after CR
  2956. # [19:53] <joesteele> ddorwin: it will be hard to get through CR with a void* that is what we want
  2957. # [19:54] <joesteele> ... we have identified a few of these issue
  2958. # [19:54] <timeless> s/what we/do what you/
  2959. # [19:54] <joesteele> ... we should either do them or branch
  2960. # [19:54] <joesteele> ... we want to make sure these things are defined -- know what they look like
  2961. # [19:54] <joesteele> ... domains is an example
  2962. # [19:55] <joesteele> ... impossible to know how folks are going to do it now
  2963. # [19:55] <joesteele> ... there are specific points where if you want to ask for afeature you can
  2964. # [19:55] <joesteele> ... explicitily defining key release is an example markw mentioned
  2965. # [19:55] <joesteele> ... identifying these would allow us to move forward
  2966. # [19:55] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2967. # [19:55] <joesteele> ... but would prefer not to have a blanket statement like "add your stuff here"
  2968. # [19:56] <joesteele> paulc: we will close the bug
  2969. # [19:56] <timeless> s/close/leave/
  2970. # [19:56] * Quits: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91 [SeaMonkey 2.30/20141013232806]")
  2971. # [19:56] <timeless> s/bug/bug closed/
  2972. # [19:56] <joesteele> paulc: those were the 3 I had in my list for you Jerry
  2973. # [19:56] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2974. # [19:56] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  2975. # [19:56] <joesteele> ... any other bugs nominated to bring to the top of the list?
  2976. # [19:56] <joesteele> ... did not see any others where an explcit action since the 29th
  2977. # [19:57] <joesteele> ddorwin: item #24
  2978. # [19:57] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2979. # [19:57] <joesteele> paulc: these came in after Oct 19th
  2980. # [19:57] <timeless> topic: Bug 27111 - Separate "persistent" session type into persistent license and presistent key release
  2981. # [19:57] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27111
  2982. # [19:57] <timeless> s/timeless/scribe/
  2983. # [19:57] <joesteele> ddorwin: markw alluded to this
  2984. # [19:57] <joesteele> ... tried to have persistent sessions handle anything storage related
  2985. # [19:57] <joesteele> ... for simplicity, issue like persistent and temporary
  2986. # [19:58] <joesteele> ... and defining behavior
  2987. # [19:58] <markw> q+
  2988. # [19:58] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
  2989. # [19:58] <joesteele> ... this bug is mainly cosmetic, but addresses some of the confusion
  2990. # [19:58] <joesteele> ... for persistent licenses which is ambiguous now
  2991. # [19:58] <joesteele> ack ddorwin
  2992. # [19:58] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
  2993. # [19:58] <joesteele> ... some implementations might do key requests -- would be better to be explicit
  2994. # [19:59] <joesteele> ... AFAIK we don't have anything that are are diffeent type of license (other than domain keys)
  2995. # [19:59] <adrianba> q-
  2996. # [19:59] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  2997. # [19:59] <joesteele> ack adrianba
  2998. # [19:59] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  2999. # [19:59] <timeless> s/diffeent/different/
  3000. # [19:59] <joesteele> ack markw
  3001. # [19:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3002. # [19:59] <joesteele> markw: how do people think we should deal with key release?
  3003. # [19:59] <joesteele> .... sessions were the only way of dealing with key release
  3004. # [19:59] <timeless> s/..../.../
  3005. # [19:59] <joesteele> ... issue with no closing sessions gracefully
  3006. # [20:00] <joesteele> ... should we really be using sessions for that?
  3007. # [20:00] <joesteele> ... should we have a getKeyRelease()
  3008. # [20:00] * Quits: Ruinan (~Ruinan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3009. # [20:00] <joesteele> ddorwin:
  3010. # [20:00] <joesteele> ... would be more specific
  3011. # [20:00] <joesteele> ddorwin: who or what would we be firing messages at
  3012. # [20:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  3013. # [20:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  3014. # [20:00] <joesteele> ... I would say loadReleasedSession or something like that
  3015. # [20:01] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3016. # [20:01] <joesteele> .... I would rather have an iterator model
  3017. # [20:01] <timeless> s/trackbot, start meeting//
  3018. # [20:01] <joesteele> ... there is an ascpect to removing the session
  3019. # [20:01] <joesteele> ... no matter how you get the session, it is valuable to have it
  3020. # [20:01] <timeless> q?
  3021. # [20:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3022. # [20:01] <joesteele> paulc: you said might be cosmetic
  3023. # [20:01] <joesteele> ... other key types in the taxonomy
  3024. # [20:02] <joesteele> ... ?
  3025. # [20:02] <timeless> s/item #24//
  3026. # [20:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  3027. # [20:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  3028. # [20:02] <joesteele> markw: persistence in the session question -- is it assumed that you are asking about both the key release and the keys in the session
  3029. # [20:02] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3030. # [20:02] <joesteele> ddorwin: I think we asked that -- does that really exist?
  3031. # [20:02] <joesteele> q+
  3032. # [20:03] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  3033. # [20:03] <joesteele> ... generally it can expire - think you want key release with an offline license
  3034. # [20:03] <joesteele> ... our implementation would do different things
  3035. # [20:03] * Quits: BillHofmann (~BillHofmann@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  3036. # [20:03] <joesteele> ... persistent licenses is a superset
  3037. # [20:03] <joesteele> q?
  3038. # [20:03] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  3039. # [20:03] <timeless> scribe: timeless
  3040. # [20:03] <timeless> ack joesteele
  3041. # [20:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3042. # [20:04] <timeless> joesteele: i don't know if i'll be able to prove you wrong
  3043. # [20:04] <timeless> ... for key release
  3044. # [20:04] <timeless> ... the specific thing in this case
  3045. # [20:04] <timeless> ... in all the cases that i've seen key release used
  3046. # [20:04] <timeless> ... it's about (con?)current session counting on the server
  3047. # [20:04] * Quits: Youngsun_Ryu (~Youngsun_Ryu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3048. # [20:04] <timeless> ... i don't think every server wants a notification about key-release
  3049. # [20:04] <timeless> ... we could require that
  3050. # [20:04] <timeless> ... i think some servers would drop it on the floor
  3051. # [20:05] <timeless> ddorwin: what functionality are they using?
  3052. # [20:05] <timeless> joesteele: they're saying; the local application is flushing the keystore
  3053. # [20:05] * Joins: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak)
  3054. # [20:05] <timeless> ... they're trusting the app to do the proper thing
  3055. # [20:05] <timeless> ddorwin: you can still load a session and release its keys
  3056. # [20:05] <timeless> ... key release is an online streaming license
  3057. # [20:05] <timeless> ... with persistance
  3058. # [20:05] <timeless> ... you want to retrieve the receipt later
  3059. # [20:05] <timeless> joesteele: multiple UCs?
  3060. # [20:06] <timeless> ... some use offline licenses and don't care about the message to the server
  3061. # [20:06] <timeless> ... i don't care in this fight
  3062. # [20:06] <timeless> ... server could drop it on the floor
  3063. # [20:06] <timeless> ddorwin: offline + don't care what happens
  3064. # [20:06] <timeless> ... fine to ignore
  3065. # [20:06] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
  3066. # [20:06] <timeless> ... but we were thinking offline would have an ack
  3067. # [20:06] <timeless> ... UCs where it is necessary (rentals)
  3068. # [20:06] <timeless> ... we can avoid these things, solve interop
  3069. # [20:06] <timeless> ... a) app could have trouble w/ that behavior
  3070. # [20:07] <timeless> ... i guess, app doesn't care, it could do that
  3071. # [20:07] <timeless> ... risk of malware, inject "delete all licenses"
  3072. # [20:07] <timeless> ... we should talk about that, my vision of offline was there was always a receipt
  3073. # [20:07] <timeless> ... CDM would not know to delete license/receipt
  3074. # [20:07] <timeless> ... talk about that, separate issue
  3075. # [20:07] <timeless> scribe: joesteele
  3076. # [20:07] <joesteele> ... ?
  3077. # [20:07] <joesteele> paulc: so what is the next step
  3078. # [20:07] <joesteele> ddorwin: do folks think this is a step forward?
  3079. # [20:08] <joesteele> ... joesteele just said that there arepotentially other models for this
  3080. # [20:08] <joesteele> paulc: any objections?
  3081. # [20:08] <joesteele> ... no -- then you can go ahead
  3082. # [20:08] <joesteele> paulc: should we go to the top of the list?
  3083. # [20:08] * timeless http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0101.html
  3084. # [20:09] <joesteele> s/arepotentially/are potentially/
  3085. # [20:09] <timeless> topic: Bug 26738 Add entry for MPEG-2 TS CENC to the Stream Format Registry
  3086. # [20:09] <timeless> scribe:
  3087. # [20:09] <timeless> s/scribe:/scribe: timeless/
  3088. # [20:09] <timeless> paulc: blocked w/ boblund (not here)
  3089. # [20:10] <timeless> topic: Bug 26372 Report issues/events not related to a specific method call
  3090. # [20:10] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26372
  3091. # [20:10] <timeless> ddorwin: i'm going to implement something like we agreed, and iterate
  3092. # [20:10] * Quits: jerome_ (~jerome@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3093. # [20:10] <timeless> ... it's going to look "maplike"
  3094. # [20:10] <timeless> topic: Bug 26811 Separate definitions of Initialization Data Types from Stream Format parsing
  3095. # [20:10] <timeless> paulc: lower priority
  3096. # [20:10] <timeless> ... it blocks Bug 26738
  3097. # [20:11] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  3098. # [20:11] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  3099. # [20:11] <timeless> ... can you raise priority
  3100. # [20:11] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3101. # [20:11] <timeless> ddorwin: i want to do 26372 first
  3102. # [20:11] <timeless> topic: Bug 26573 Prepare for Last Call
  3103. # [20:11] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26573
  3104. # [20:11] <timeless> ddorwin: questions around references
  3105. # [20:11] <timeless> paulc: plh?
  3106. # [20:11] <timeless> ... i can't hit him
  3107. # [20:12] <timeless> ... ddorwin was asking current best normative reference to WebIDL
  3108. # [20:12] <timeless> ... MikeSmith ?
  3109. # [20:12] <timeless> darobin: "reference it and say don't implement bindings"
  3110. # [20:12] <timeless> ddorwin: we're adding things added to the living standard version last week
  3111. # [20:12] <timeless> ... but the URL is /TR/ (old)
  3112. # [20:12] <timeless> pal: update TR
  3113. # [20:13] <timeless> paulc: darobin, advice here?
  3114. # [20:13] <timeless> darobin: nope
  3115. # [20:13] <timeless> ... we could try to get WebApps to update /TR/
  3116. # [20:13] <timeless> paulc: action on me
  3117. # [20:13] <timeless> ... i sent plh an email
  3118. # [20:13] <timeless> ... i
  3119. # [20:13] <timeless> s/i/i'll give you feedback/
  3120. # [20:13] <timeless> topic: Bug 24771 Provide guidance on object and CDM lifetime (including when events are guaranteed to be fired)
  3121. # [20:14] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24771
  3122. # [20:14] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3123. # [20:14] <timeless> ddorwin: i added new objects -- MediaKeyAccess
  3124. # [20:14] * Quits: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3125. # [20:14] <timeless> paulc: this needs to be expanded?
  3126. # [20:14] <timeless> ddorwin: yes, but it isn't affecting compat, so lower priority
  3127. # [20:14] <timeless> topic: Bug 26838 Normatively address vulnerabilities related to initData contained in media data
  3128. # [20:14] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26838
  3129. # [20:14] <timeless> paulc: we looked on Oct 14
  3130. # [20:14] <timeless> ... said "discuss at F2F"
  3131. # [20:15] <timeless> ... made change on Oct 17
  3132. # [20:15] <timeless> ddorwin: that's the https: bug
  3133. # [20:15] <timeless> ... "data you can't validate is bad"
  3134. # [20:15] <timeless> ... "data you're passing that can't be sandboxed is bad"
  3135. # [20:15] <timeless> ... "inject random stuff, that's even worse -- network attack"
  3136. # [20:15] <joesteele> q+
  3137. # [20:15] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  3138. # [20:16] <timeless> ... left w/ "make it so you can sanitize it"
  3139. # [20:16] * shepazu is now known as shepazoOoOoOo
  3140. # [20:16] <timeless> ... some implementations can't
  3141. # [20:16] <timeless> ... they're working to improve
  3142. # [20:16] <timeless> paulc: is this dependent on bug 26332?
  3143. # [20:16] <timeless> ddorwin: yes
  3144. # [20:16] <timeless> ... both, it and bug 27093
  3145. # [20:16] <timeless> paulc: so this is the nullset once those two others are done
  3146. # [20:16] <timeless> ddorwin: i'm open to other ideas
  3147. # [20:17] <timeless> ... but that's what the analysis boils down to
  3148. # [20:17] * Quits: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3149. # [20:17] <timeless> paulc: given discussion on https:
  3150. # [20:17] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
  3151. # [20:17] <timeless> ... is that the only solution?
  3152. # [20:17] <timeless> ddorwin: it depends on, influences 26332
  3153. # [20:17] <timeless> ... it's one of the reasons you want a secure-origin
  3154. # [20:17] <timeless> paulc: markw, when you discussed things in 26332
  3155. # [20:17] <timeless> ... is this initData case one of those things?
  3156. # [20:18] <timeless> markw: could be
  3157. # [20:18] <timeless> ... yeah, this was one of the
  3158. # [20:18] <timeless> ... in 26332, we talked about security + privacy
  3159. # [20:18] * Quits: Zefa__ (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3160. # [20:18] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3161. # [20:18] <timeless> ... are there different considerations for validating initData v.
  3162. # [20:18] <timeless> ... update messages in the update() method
  3163. # [20:18] <timeless> ... require UAs ensure those things are validated
  3164. # [20:18] <timeless> ... minimum standards for sandboxing etc?
  3165. # [20:19] <timeless> ... go through that, could allow unauthenticated storage
  3166. # [20:19] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
  3167. # [20:19] <timeless> paulc: wanted you to think about it
  3168. # [20:19] <timeless> q?
  3169. # [20:19] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  3170. # [20:19] <timeless> ack joesteele
  3171. # [20:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3172. # [20:19] <timeless> joesteele: markw, you asked ddorwin if those types of data are different
  3173. # [20:19] <timeless> ... they are different
  3174. # [20:19] <timeless> ... getting to a place where initdata is in the media, is a common format which is validatable
  3175. # [20:20] <timeless> ... is easier than getting messages from server are validatable
  3176. # [20:20] <ddorwin> q+
  3177. # [20:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  3178. # [20:20] <timeless> ... those messages are entirely encrypted w/ a key that the app won't have a way
  3179. # [20:20] <timeless> paulc: so it depends on how you get the initData ?
  3180. # [20:20] <timeless> joesteele: no
  3181. # [20:20] <timeless> ... initData can be common-format, or proprietary format
  3182. # [20:20] <timeless> ... getting everyone to use common-format is easier problem to solve
  3183. # [20:20] <timeless> ... other thing
  3184. # [20:20] * Joins: markw_ (~markw@public.cloak)
  3185. # [20:20] <timeless> ... in initialization-data portion
  3186. # [20:20] <timeless> ... where it talks about what it may contain
  3187. # [20:21] <markw_> q+
  3188. # [20:21] * Zakim sees ddorwin, markw_ on the speaker queue
  3189. # [20:21] <timeless> ... one minor nit to pick w/ it, ddorwin and i have talked
  3190. # [20:21] <timeless> ... i may file a bug to make the change required
  3191. # [20:21] * Joins: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
  3192. # [20:21] <timeless> ... right now, the text there requiring validating initialization data
  3193. # [20:21] <timeless> ... requires being able to validate that
  3194. # [20:21] <timeless> ... initially i thought there was no way
  3195. # [20:21] <timeless> ... but after browser vendor discussion
  3196. # [20:21] <timeless> ... validation may be minimal, but if that's ok
  3197. # [20:21] <ddorwin> q-
  3198. # [20:21] * Zakim sees markw_ on the speaker queue
  3199. # [20:21] <timeless> ... it's up to browser vendor
  3200. # [20:21] <timeless> q?
  3201. # [20:21] * Zakim sees markw_ on the speaker queue
  3202. # [20:21] <timeless> ack markw_
  3203. # [20:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3204. # [20:22] <timeless> s/markw_/markw/G
  3205. # [20:22] <timeless> markw_: validation requirements to put in place
  3206. # [20:22] <timeless> ... require that data must be validated
  3207. # [20:22] <timeless> ... in processes no-greater privs than rendering
  3208. # [20:22] <timeless> ... gives flexibility
  3209. # [20:22] <timeless> ... maybe UA validates
  3210. # [20:22] <timeless> ... maybe CDM does it (if it's reviewed)
  3211. # [20:22] <joesteele> +1 to that proposal
  3212. # [20:22] <timeless> ... ensures validation happens, but don't dictate where
  3213. # [20:23] <timeless> topic: Bug 25092 Need a way to inform script that resolution restrictions are applied
  3214. # [20:23] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092#c23
  3215. # [20:23] <timeless> paulc: i don't think URI has done anything about this?
  3216. # [20:23] <timeless> markw: no progress i'm aware of
  3217. # [20:23] <timeless> ... still, CSS side people or other media people + browsers
  3218. # [20:23] <timeless> ... from which we need input
  3219. # [20:23] <timeless> paulc: ok
  3220. # [20:24] <timeless> ... on my list of things to followup / find someone to help
  3221. # [20:24] <timeless> topic: Bug 25268 Reduce the burden on applications to deduplicate initData from many needkey events
  3222. # [20:24] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25268
  3223. # [20:24] <timeless> paulc: We will close this at the F2F if no solution is provided.
  3224. # [20:24] <timeless> ... no proposal here
  3225. # [20:24] <timeless> joesteele: i second
  3226. # [20:24] <timeless> paulc: glenn said it was an optimization
  3227. # [20:24] <timeless> ... ddorwin reduced priority
  3228. # [20:25] <timeless> ... we agreed on Oct 14 to resolve this
  3229. # [20:25] <timeless> ... wontfix/later?
  3230. # [20:25] <timeless> ddorwin: LATER
  3231. # [20:25] <timeless> paulc: objections?
  3232. # [20:25] * Quits: markw (~markw@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3233. # [20:25] <timeless> jdsmith: makes sense
  3234. # [20:25] <timeless> joesteele: no objection
  3235. # [20:25] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin do that now
  3236. # [20:25] <timeless> ddorwin: done
  3237. # [20:25] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  3238. # [20:25] <timeless> topic: Bug 20944 EME should do more to encourage/ensure CDM-level interop
  3239. # [20:26] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20944
  3240. # [20:26] <timeless> paulc: we'll skip -- probably last thing we do before LC
  3241. # [20:26] <timeless> ddorwin: it has a formal objection
  3242. # [20:26] <timeless> paulc: we don't need to deal w/ that until CR
  3243. # [20:26] <timeless> ... or we could change Process
  3244. # [20:26] <timeless> Bug 25434 Remove unsupported informative text in Abstract regarding OOB communication.
  3245. # [20:26] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25434
  3246. # [20:26] <timeless> paulc: This bug was re-opened after the Editors closed it. We will discuss at the F2F meeting.
  3247. # [20:27] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  3248. # [20:27] <timeless> [ hg server is broken ]
  3249. # [20:27] <timeless> [ randomly ]
  3250. # [20:27] <timeless> ddorwin: i'm in favor of moving to git
  3251. # [20:28] <timeless> ddorwin: EME to be used to identify what's supported
  3252. # [20:28] <timeless> ... TAG stated that you send things through the application
  3253. # [20:28] <timeless> ... we can't enforce things if we can't control what goes through the UA
  3254. # [20:28] <timeless> ... this bug was opened claiming that the normative text doesn't enforce this
  3255. # [20:28] * Quits: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3256. # [20:29] <timeless> ... this fixes this by additionally normally defining that you can't do out of band
  3257. # [20:29] <timeless> ... but i added an exception, individualization goes through the UA
  3258. # [20:29] <timeless> ... user clears id, you can do it again
  3259. # [20:29] <timeless> ... i added an exception for that
  3260. # [20:29] <timeless> ... debate over words, i've tried to clarify
  3261. # [20:29] <timeless> paulc: status?
  3262. # [20:29] <timeless> ddorwin: closed
  3263. # [20:30] * Quits: igarashi__ (~igarashi@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  3264. # [20:30] * Joins: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak)
  3265. # [20:30] <timeless> topic: Bug 23827 Need to add features at risk prior to entry into Candidate Recommendation
  3266. # [20:30] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23827
  3267. # [20:30] <timeless> paulc: CR, checklist -- later
  3268. # [20:30] * Quits: yohsumi (~yohsumi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3269. # [20:30] <timeless> Topic: Bug 24874 Positive isTypeSupported() may be misleading (MSE vs. .src=)
  3270. # [20:30] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24874
  3271. # [20:30] * Quits: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3272. # [20:30] <timeless> paulc: David to update bug now based on how MediaKey get created -- bug 25923.
  3273. # [20:31] <timeless> Zakim, who's on the call?
  3274. # [20:31] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
  3275. # [20:31] <Zakim> Santabarbara has paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele, darobin
  3276. # [20:31] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
  3277. # [20:32] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin, did you do the update?
  3278. # [20:32] <timeless> ... yes, you did in comment 2
  3279. # [20:32] <MarkVickers> q+
  3280. # [20:32] * Zakim sees MarkVickers on the speaker queue
  3281. # [20:32] <timeless> Zakim, ddorwin has entered slightlyoff
  3282. # [20:32] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'slightlyoff'
  3283. # [20:32] <timeless> Zakim, ddorwin has entered Santabarbara
  3284. # [20:32] <Zakim> +ddorwin; got it
  3285. # [20:32] <timeless> ddorwin: some implementations only support EME w/ MSE
  3286. # [20:32] <timeless> ... video.src=foo.mp4
  3287. # [20:32] <timeless> ... it doesn't work
  3288. # [20:33] <timeless> ... when we return it isn't supported
  3289. # [20:33] <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
  3290. # [20:33] <timeless> ... there's no indication that it isn't supported, only w/ MSE
  3291. # [20:33] <timeless> ... maybe some TV type devices, won't put any effort in
  3292. # [20:33] <timeless> ... do we care?
  3293. # [20:33] <timeless> ... worth adding an extra attribute?
  3294. # [20:33] <timeless> ... how do we make default behavior correct?
  3295. # [20:34] <timeless> ddorwin: i'm turning into a pumpkin
  3296. # [20:34] <timeless> MarkVickers: ddorwin mentioned he's working on git
  3297. # [20:34] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3298. # [20:34] <timeless> ... and then commiting to hg
  3299. # [20:34] <timeless> ... seems like busywork
  3300. # [20:34] <timeless> ... can we let it stay in git?
  3301. # [20:34] <timeless> paulc: continue to use bugzilla for bugs?
  3302. # [20:35] <timeless> MikeSmith: as the person who got stuck w/ maintaining the Hg server
  3303. # [20:35] <timeless> ... i'd like to get out of the Hg server
  3304. # [20:35] <timeless> ... you can move to github and keep using bugzilla
  3305. # [20:35] <timeless> ... maybe eventually you'd start using github issues
  3306. # [20:35] <timeless> ... but please do so as soon as possible
  3307. # [20:35] <timeless> ... i'll do the work to migrate you
  3308. # [20:35] <timeless> paulc: as the rep of the company that bought the hg server
  3309. # [20:35] <timeless> ... do i get the money back?
  3310. # [20:36] <timeless> MikeSmith: we'll repurpose the server for a more useful thing for the world
  3311. # [20:36] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin, make a proposal to move to github
  3312. # [20:37] <timeless> topic: Introductions
  3313. # [20:37] <timeless> acolwell: Aaron Colwell, MSE spec editor
  3314. # [20:37] <timeless> ... I support using git instead of hg
  3315. # [20:38] * Quits: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  3316. # [20:38] <timeless> topic: MSE qqq
  3317. # [20:38] <timeless> paulc: we had a heartbeat
  3318. # [20:38] <adrianba> q+
  3319. # [20:38] * Zakim sees MarkVickers, adrianba on the speaker queue
  3320. # [20:38] <timeless> ... that blew away the Streams object definition we were using
  3321. # [20:38] * Quits: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3322. # [20:38] <timeless> ... first acolwell, do we have an MSE bug related to this?
  3323. # [20:39] <timeless> ... i know i had an action item
  3324. # [20:39] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3325. # [20:39] <timeless> acolwell: i was planning to file two bugs
  3326. # [20:39] <timeless> ... one to remove the existing text
  3327. # [20:39] <timeless> ... one to add new text
  3328. # [20:39] <timeless> s/add new text/figure out a new way to integrate with the new version of the spec/
  3329. # [20:40] <timeless> paulc: appendStream() ?
  3330. # [20:40] <timeless> ... needs to be redefined?
  3331. # [20:40] <timeless> acolwell: one path forward is to completely remove it
  3332. # [20:40] <timeless> ... that didn't work out
  3333. # [20:40] <timeless> ... figure out a new way that's more natural
  3334. # [20:40] <timeless> ... to integrate w/ new Stream spec
  3335. # [20:40] <timeless> ... we could shoehorn, but it wouldn't be good
  3336. # [20:40] <timeless> ... Domenic 's spec
  3337. # [20:41] <timeless> paulc: i expected that the w3c spec to tell me how do to things i was doing previously
  3338. # [20:41] <timeless> q?
  3339. # [20:41] * Zakim sees MarkVickers, adrianba on the speaker queue
  3340. # [20:41] <timeless> ack adrianba
  3341. # [20:41] * Zakim sees MarkVickers on the speaker queue
  3342. # [20:41] <timeless> adrianba: we talked about this
  3343. # [20:41] <MarkVickers> q-
  3344. # [20:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3345. # [20:41] <timeless> ... for a fair amount of time as part of WebApps WG meeting
  3346. # [20:41] <timeless> ... 1st, from a spec status perspective
  3347. # [20:41] <timeless> ... there was a heartbeat publication of WebApps
  3348. # [20:42] <timeless> ... that describes the objects in Domenic 's spec
  3349. # [20:42] <timeless> ... ReadableStreams, WritableStreams
  3350. # [20:42] <timeless> ... those are the things we care about
  3351. # [20:42] <timeless> ... points to Domenic 's spec @ whatwg
  3352. # [20:42] <timeless> ... part of discussion for future of that spec
  3353. # [20:42] * Quits: k_takabayashi (~k_takabayashi@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  3354. # [20:42] <timeless> ... is Domenic is interested in potentially having foundational pieces of Streams spec
  3355. # [20:42] <timeless> ... independent of browsers, really JS language features
  3356. # [20:42] <timeless> ... being moved to TC39
  3357. # [20:43] <timeless> ... incorporated in discussions @ECMA
  3358. # [20:43] <timeless> ... caveat is that he's not sure if the group would adopt that
  3359. # [20:43] <timeless> ... Microsoft's position is that we're supportive of tha
  3360. # [20:43] <timeless> s/of tha/of that/
  3361. # [20:43] <timeless> ... the next question is how to update MSE spec to use the new way that Streams are exposed to the platform
  3362. # [20:43] <timeless> ... previously we just had a Stream object
  3363. # [20:44] <timeless> ... we wanted to keep the concept of adding data from a stream
  3364. # [20:44] <timeless> ... take a dependency in the CR draft w/ a note understanding that we'd need to update to the new spec
  3365. # [20:44] <timeless> ... in WebApps, we talked about a couple of different options
  3366. # [20:44] <timeless> ... this is what acolwell meant
  3367. # [20:44] <timeless> ... to integrate w/ the new approach to Streams
  3368. # [20:44] <timeless> ... it's very different
  3369. # [20:45] <timeless> ... one approach is ReadableStream w/ bytes, or ReadableByteStream
  3370. # [20:45] <timeless> ... we could do that and be done
  3371. # [20:45] <timeless> paulc: reference would be to Domenic 's current document
  3372. # [20:45] <timeless> ... w/ possibility that it might actually be an ECMA reference?
  3373. # [20:45] <timeless> adrianba: i'd prefer to deal w/ technical aspect
  3374. # [20:45] <timeless> ... we could change appendStream to take a ReadableStream or ReadableByteStream
  3375. # [20:45] <timeless> ... call that good and move on
  3376. # [20:46] <timeless> ... but question is, whether that's really in the spirit of the new Stream API
  3377. # [20:46] * timeless Domenic ???
  3378. # [20:46] <timeless> ... spectrum of things you might do beyond that
  3379. # [20:46] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  3380. # [20:46] <timeless> ... in WebApps, we discussed "maybe that's good for now"
  3381. # [20:46] * Domenic literally speaking in another meeting right now, sorry :(!!
  3382. # [20:46] <timeless> ... and in v2 discuss changing things
  3383. # [20:46] <timeless> ... maybe change the MSE Stream API
  3384. # [20:46] <timeless> ... to expose a WritableStream API
  3385. # [20:46] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  3386. # [20:46] <timeless> ... to let you build Pipes
  3387. # [20:47] <timeless> ... but there was a general consensus that it wasn't required
  3388. # [20:47] <timeless> ... given we've moved to CR
  3389. # [20:47] <timeless> ... called for implementations
  3390. # [20:47] <acolwell> q+
  3391. # [20:47] * Zakim sees acolwell on the speaker queue
  3392. # [20:47] <timeless> ... maybe this isn't the right time to do that
  3393. # [20:47] <timeless> ... that's a summary re: new [Streams] spec
  3394. # [20:47] <timeless> ... rewrite implementation to new design
  3395. # [20:47] <timeless> ... personally favoring small change rather than large change
  3396. # [20:48] <timeless> paulc: your changes "2. small change" "3. future change"
  3397. # [20:48] <timeless> ... eliminating "1. remove feature from MSE"
  3398. # [20:48] <timeless> adrianba: we discussed #1 twelve months ago and decided it wasn't a good idea
  3399. # [20:48] <Domenic> I am willing to submit a pull request with updated text if that would help
  3400. # [20:48] <timeless> paulc: we kept it w/ a reference to the gone thing
  3401. # [20:48] <timeless> ... your preference is #2
  3402. # [20:49] <timeless> adrianba: we discussed it twelve months ago
  3403. # [20:49] <timeless> ... right now favor #2
  3404. # [20:49] <timeless> ... but i might be persuaded
  3405. # [20:49] <timeless> ack acolwell
  3406. # [20:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3407. # [20:49] <timeless> acolwell: adrianba did a good job of describing
  3408. # [20:49] <timeless> ... i'm in favor of 2
  3409. # [20:49] <timeless> ... less work for me, and implementations
  3410. # [20:49] <timeless> ... depends on how people feel about it not being as natural
  3411. # [20:49] <timeless> ... it would achieve the original intent of appendStream()
  3412. # [20:50] <timeless> ... from a platform perspective of everything hooking together, is this ok to have?
  3413. # [20:50] <timeless> ... it's kind of too late
  3414. # [20:50] <timeless> paulc: can you re-iterate the two bugs?
  3415. # [20:50] <timeless> acolwell: 2 bugs is if we take option #1 path and then immediately do option #3
  3416. # [20:50] <timeless> ... #3 -- figure out something more natural
  3417. # [20:50] <timeless> ... adrianba is pro #2
  3418. # [20:51] <timeless> ... and i don't object severely
  3419. # [20:51] <timeless> paulc: Domenic are you willing to do that for option #2
  3420. # [20:51] <timeless> ... (or was that for #3?)
  3421. # [20:51] * Joins: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak)
  3422. # [20:51] <timeless> acolwell: if we take option #2, i don't think we need Domenic
  3423. # [20:52] <timeless> ... it's really just changing implementations to use Promises
  3424. # [20:52] <markw_> q+
  3425. # [20:52] * Zakim sees markw_ on the speaker queue
  3426. # [20:52] <timeless> ... two people have said option #2 is the way to go
  3427. # [20:52] <timeless> paulc: we're in CR
  3428. # [20:52] <timeless> ... is there a bug for change #2
  3429. # [20:52] <jdsmith> q+
  3430. # [20:52] * Zakim sees markw_, jdsmith on the speaker queue
  3431. # [20:52] <timeless> acolwell: i can file one
  3432. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> q?
  3433. # [20:52] * Zakim sees markw_, jdsmith on the speaker queue
  3434. # [20:52] <timeless> adrianba: i think Domenic was probably proposing option #3
  3435. # [20:52] <timeless> ack markw_
  3436. # [20:52] * Zakim sees jdsmith on the speaker queue
  3437. # [20:53] <timeless> markw_: original intention of putting this in here
  3438. # [20:53] <timeless> ... sounds like an optimization
  3439. # [20:53] <Domenic> yes, was proposing option 3
  3440. # [20:53] <timeless> ... media data doesn't need to flow up to js and then down again
  3441. # [20:53] <timeless> ... but sometimes, it might not be an optimization
  3442. # [20:53] <timeless> ... we have an implementation that does that
  3443. # [20:53] <timeless> ... using ArrayBuffers
  3444. # [20:53] <timeless> ... but there's another reason
  3445. # [20:53] <timeless> ... Q to browsers, do browsers have an optimization
  3446. # [20:54] <timeless> ... if they don't, then we want option #3, but do it later
  3447. # [20:54] <timeless> acolwell: i haven't looked at what Chrome's implementation of the new stream api
  3448. # [20:54] <timeless> ... but based on the code for the old impl
  3449. # [20:54] <timeless> ... i wouldn't expect a big difference between old/new
  3450. # [20:54] <timeless> ... i don't think it really matters
  3451. # [20:54] <timeless> ack jdsmith
  3452. # [20:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3453. # [20:54] <timeless> jdsmith: in WebApps
  3454. # [20:54] <timeless> ... Domenic took an action to help us understand the capabilities of WritableStreams
  3455. # [20:55] <timeless> ... what specificaly we'd gain
  3456. # [20:55] <timeless> ... i think there's merit in embracing ReadableStreams
  3457. # [20:55] <timeless> ... how soon we'd want to pursue option #3
  3458. # [20:55] <timeless> ... how much we could optimize our impl
  3459. # [20:55] <timeless> acolwell: when we implement a WritableStream
  3460. # [20:55] * Quits: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  3461. # [20:55] * Domenic Zakim, code?
  3462. # [20:55] * Zakim saw 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, Domenic
  3463. # [20:55] <timeless> ... both appendBuffer and appendStream could maintain backwards compat w/ the API
  3464. # [20:56] <Zakim> +Domenic
  3465. # [20:56] <timeless> paulc: markw was asking if there was merit in maintaining the current
  3466. # [20:56] <timeless> jdsmith: speaking for IE
  3467. # [20:56] <timeless> ... we've spent effort in implementing current
  3468. # [20:56] <timeless> ... but i don't think we've spent much to optimize
  3469. # [20:56] <timeless> ... we actually don't believe migrating to ReadableStream is difficult
  3470. # [20:56] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  3471. # [20:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  3472. # [20:57] <timeless> paulc: Domenic, sounds like were po
  3473. # [20:57] <timeless> s/were po/we're proposing is option #2/
  3474. # [20:57] <timeless> ... redefine on top of ReadableStream/ReadableByteStream
  3475. # [20:57] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3476. # [20:57] <timeless> ... leave pending going to WriteableByteStream for a later version of the spec
  3477. # [20:58] <timeless> Domenic: might be more awkward for some consumers
  3478. # [20:58] <timeless> ... but even if you started w/ the current stream spec
  3479. # [20:58] <timeless> ... you might want appendStream anyway
  3480. # [20:58] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3481. # [20:58] <timeless> paulc: so, acolwell, you'll do #2
  3482. # [20:58] <timeless> Domenic: i'm glad you guys are working to build on this
  3483. # [20:58] <timeless> ... i did similar w/ Promises
  3484. # [20:58] <timeless> ... i'm happy to help
  3485. # [20:59] <timeless> ... writing up how to use Streams in TAG,
  3486. # [20:59] <timeless> ... make pull requests
  3487. # [20:59] <timeless> ... etc.
  3488. # [20:59] <timeless> paulc: we'll do this and then ask for your feedback
  3489. # [20:59] <timeless> Topic: MSE CR Status
  3490. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> -> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/labels/media-source Open PRs for MSE tests
  3491. # [21:00] * Domenic off the phone, still in IRC and can call back in :). thanks all.
  3492. # [21:00] <Zakim> -Domenic
  3493. # [21:00] <timeless> paulc: acolwell, you sent an email to the list about status
  3494. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
  3495. # [21:00] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  3496. # [21:00] <timeless> ... i think your pull request to Chrome was accepted?
  3497. # [21:00] <timeless> ... and you submitted more tests?
  3498. # [21:00] <timeless> ... don't know offhand current status
  3499. # [21:00] * Quits: yinagaki (~yinagaki@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  3500. # [21:00] <timeless> ... don't know if anyone else submitted
  3501. # [21:00] <timeless> MikeSmith: Uchira
  3502. # [21:01] <timeless> paulc: someone else submitting tests
  3503. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> s/Uchira/Uchida
  3504. # [21:01] <timeless> ... hoping someone would know overall status
  3505. # [21:01] <timeless> ... if that was me, i don't know the answer
  3506. # [21:01] <timeless> acolwell: that's the current state
  3507. # [21:01] * Quits: shepazoOoOoOo (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  3508. # [21:01] <timeless> ... i commented on all the other tests that were submitted
  3509. # [21:01] <timeless> ... most were included in my update
  3510. # [21:01] <timeless> ... i suggested waiving off a number since they were covered in my landing
  3511. # [21:02] <timeless> ... one-or-two not covered
  3512. # [21:02] <timeless> ... i'd like someone else from the TF to step up
  3513. # [21:02] <timeless> ... i know jerry-noble from Apple had TTT
  3514. # [21:02] <timeless> paulc: this it the front end, people submitting tests
  3515. # [21:02] <timeless> ... i don't believe we've started to construct an implementation report
  3516. # [21:02] <timeless> ... to tell us coverage of tests
  3517. # [21:02] <timeless> ... or results for implementations
  3518. # [21:03] <timeless> ... we went into CR in Jan
  3519. # [21:03] <timeless> ... and we haven't made much progress 10 months later
  3520. # [21:03] <timeless> plh: someone needs to step up
  3521. # [21:03] <timeless> acolwell: i'd prefer it not be me
  3522. # [21:03] * timeless MikeSmith TTT?
  3523. # [21:03] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  3524. # [21:03] <timeless> ... we need understanding from chairs
  3525. # [21:03] <timeless> ... intent of providing Blink Tests
  3526. # [21:03] <timeless> ... was to get this started
  3527. # [21:04] <timeless> ... i'd like to see other implementers engaged
  3528. # [21:04] <timeless> paulc: i guess that's not the kind of question between you and lunch
  3529. # [21:04] <timeless> acolwell: i understand
  3530. # [21:04] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3531. # [21:04] * timeless acolwell were you putting stuff in from Chrome, or donating tests from Blink?
  3532. # [21:04] <timeless> paulc: i guess we need to find more tests
  3533. # [21:05] <timeless> ... and find someone from outside the TF
  3534. # [21:05] <acolwell> timeless: The Blink tests are Chrome's tests
  3535. # [21:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  3536. # [21:05] <timeless> paulc: we've had 3 separate submissions
  3537. # [21:05] <timeless> ... acolwell 's original blink tests
  3538. # [21:06] <timeless> ... independent tests that overlap
  3539. # [21:06] <plh> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3Amedia-source
  3540. # [21:06] <timeless> ... acolwell 's second batch that need to be reviewed
  3541. # [21:06] * Quits: song_ (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3542. # [21:06] <timeless> ... no one has done analysis of those tests against MSE spec
  3543. # [21:06] <timeless> ... it isn't a small task
  3544. # [21:06] <timeless> ... you could look to darobin
  3545. # [21:07] <timeless> ... you can look at our DOM implementation report
  3546. # [21:07] <plh> q+
  3547. # [21:07] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, plh on the speaker queue
  3548. # [21:07] <timeless> ... team members, plh heavily involved in WebPlatform testing
  3549. # [21:07] <timeless> ... alright, Cyril maybe you can help prune off items
  3550. # [21:07] <timeless> ... and then maybe we can find other resources
  3551. # [21:08] * Quits: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  3552. # [21:08] <timeless> [ rubys recorded action in Media TF ]
  3553. # [21:08] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
  3554. # [21:08] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
  3555. # [21:08] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  3556. # [21:08] <timeless> MikeSmith: not a great situation
  3557. # [21:08] <timeless> ... we had a guy who went in, studied specification in enough detail
  3558. # [21:08] <timeless> ... put in several weeks of work
  3559. # [21:08] <timeless> ... writing testcases for your spec
  3560. # [21:08] <timeless> ... submitted the tests for review, many months ago
  3561. # [21:08] <timeless> ... and no one reviewed them
  3562. # [21:08] <timeless> Cyril: i started reviewing them
  3563. # [21:09] <timeless> MikeSmith: from his perspective
  3564. # [21:09] <timeless> ... he's pretty frustrated
  3565. # [21:09] <timeless> glenn: we'll get around to it
  3566. # [21:09] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3567. # [21:09] <timeless> MikeSmith: several months
  3568. # [21:09] <timeless> paulc: connection between Pull-Request and MSE
  3569. # [21:09] <timeless> ... isn't obvious
  3570. # [21:09] <timeless> MikeSmith: but i came to you
  3571. # [21:09] <timeless> Cyril: critique system is hard to use
  3572. # [21:10] <timeless> MikeSmith: i don't want to hand hold
  3573. # [21:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  3574. # [21:10] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  3575. # [21:10] <timeless> paulc: MS volunteered to try to help
  3576. # [21:10] <timeless> ... but the staff was reassigned
  3577. # [21:10] <timeless> ... to other work
  3578. # [21:10] <timeless> ... it's on the agenda
  3579. # [21:10] <timeless> ... we have at least one person stepping up
  3580. # [21:10] <timeless> ... work w/ Team, Cyril, myself
  3581. # [21:10] <timeless> q?
  3582. # [21:10] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  3583. # [21:10] <timeless> ack plh
  3584. # [21:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3585. # [21:10] <timeless> plh: answer how we take
  3586. # [21:11] <timeless> ... we have 13 pull-requests
  3587. # [21:11] * Quits: markw_ (~markw@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3588. # [21:11] <timeless> ... each is at least 100 lines of code
  3589. # [21:11] <timeless> ... i'm assuming you're not familiar w/ the testing system
  3590. # [21:11] <timeless> ... at least a full week of work
  3591. # [21:11] <timeless> ... 1-2 days to get into the code
  3592. # [21:11] <timeless> ... 2-3 days to go through the tests
  3593. # [21:11] <timeless> ... i'm assuming you're somehow familiar w/ the spec
  3594. # [21:11] <timeless> ... if not, it'll take you longer
  3595. # [21:11] <timeless> Cyril: i have implemented MSE in open source software
  3596. # [21:12] <timeless> ... i know a bit about the testing framework
  3597. # [21:12] <timeless> ... but it's so difficult finding which tests have been reviewed
  3598. # [21:12] <timeless> ... i wasn't aware of the Pull Requests
  3599. # [21:12] <timeless> ... wher?
  3600. # [21:12] <timeless> s/er/ere/
  3601. # [21:12] <timeless> paulc: MikeSmith, that's the point I was making
  3602. # [21:12] <timeless> ... let's do lunch
  3603. # [21:12] <timeless> ... pointer to pull-requests?
  3604. # [21:12] * Quits: Noriya (~Noriya@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  3605. # [21:12] <timeless> plh: we improved thanks to jgraham
  3606. # [21:13] <timeless> ... the documentation
  3607. # [21:13] * Quits: jcdufourd (~jcdufourd@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3608. # [21:13] <timeless> Cyril: i met jgraham in London in August
  3609. # [21:13] <timeless> ... huge step in understanding
  3610. # [21:13] <timeless> ... if you want other people to help
  3611. # [21:13] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  3612. # [21:13] <timeless> ... you want them to not have to meet jgraham directly
  3613. # [21:13] <timeless> paulc: slope to climb
  3614. # [21:13] <timeless> ... glenn before lunch
  3615. # [21:14] <timeless> glenn: plh, status of support of https: in webplatform tests?
  3616. # [21:14] <timeless> plh: we have a pull-request for it
  3617. # [21:14] <timeless> paulc: acolwell, i think if you wanted to bring this up
  3618. # [21:14] <timeless> ... and your hope was to get a volunteer
  3619. # [21:14] <timeless> ... i think that actually happened (Cyril)
  3620. # [21:14] <timeless> ... maybe in 2-3 weeks we can schedule a test discussion on the MSE Tuesday call
  3621. # [21:14] <timeless> ... acolwell, please feel free to get Domenic 's help
  3622. # [21:14] * plh glenn, see https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1302
  3623. # [21:14] <timeless> acolwell: that's fine
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  3625. # [21:14] <timeless> paulc: recessed until 2pm
  3626. # [21:15] * Quits: jdsmith (~jdsmith@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  3627. # [21:15] <timeless> ... darobin up then is DOM4 implementation / status
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  3630. # [21:15] <timeless> darobin: can we come back late?
  3631. # [21:15] <timeless> paulc: let's try for 2pm
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  3633. # [21:15] <timeless> [ Lunch ]
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  3635. # [21:15] <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
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  3698. # [22:06] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
  3699. # [22:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
  3700. # [22:07] <darobin> http://w3c.github.io/test-results/dom/less-than-2.html
  3701. # [22:07] <timeless> topic: AAA
  3702. # [22:07] <timeless> s|AAA|DOM4 implementation / status|
  3703. # [22:08] <timeless> s|topic: DOM4 implementation / status||
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  3706. # [22:08] <timeless> i|http|topic: DOM4 implementation / status||
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  3710. # [22:09] <timeless> i|http|topic: DOM4 implementation / status|
  3711. # [22:09] <timeless> s/http//
  3712. # [22:09] <timeless> s|topic: DOM4 implementation / status||
  3713. # [22:09] <timeless> s/i|||//
  3714. # [22:09] <timeless> darobin: there are parts of the spec that don't represent reality
  3715. # [22:09] <timeless> ... HTML5 not withstanding
  3716. # [22:09] * glazou joins from SFO
  3717. # [22:10] <timeless> paulc: i have two more press interviews on Monday
  3718. # [22:10] <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
  3719. # [22:10] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak)
  3720. # [22:10] <timeless> darobin: bz's objection was the behavior of createDocument()
  3721. # [22:10] * glazou is currently implementing all of DOM4 in Haxe
  3722. # [22:10] <timeless> ... if you create something that should be an xhtml document
  3723. # [22:10] <timeless> ... document has a type, either HTML, or xml
  3724. # [22:10] * Joins: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak)
  3725. # [22:10] <paulc> Boris's objection: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0014.html
  3726. # [22:10] * Joins: rubys2 (~rubys@public.cloak)
  3727. # [22:10] <timeless> ... the spec doesn't say if an xml document should have type=xml
  3728. # [22:10] <timeless> ... you could create an XML document object with type = html
  3729. # [22:10] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3730. # [22:11] <timeless> ... if you create an xml document from the html element
  3731. # [22:11] <timeless> ... it creates an document object w/ type=html
  3732. # [22:11] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  3733. # [22:11] <zcorpan_> q+
  3734. # [22:11] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
  3735. # [22:11] <timeless> darobin: we tried to review the tests
  3736. # [22:11] * Joins: jcdufourd (~jcdufourd@public.cloak)
  3737. # [22:11] <timeless> ... to see if interop/spec issue
  3738. # [22:11] <timeless> ... to see if it's just impls that haven't caught up
  3739. # [22:11] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3740. # [22:11] <timeless> ... no need to go through all tests
  3741. # [22:11] <timeless> ... if people want to contribute, we can talk about that
  3742. # [22:12] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  3743. # [22:12] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  3744. # [22:12] <timeless> ... some situations are things where browsers haven't caught up
  3745. # [22:12] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3746. # [22:12] <timeless> ... WebIDL -- nothing to fix in DOM, problems go away when impls catch up
  3747. # [22:12] <timeless> ... createNodeIterator
  3748. # [22:12] <timeless> ... so many errors that it impacts scrolling
  3749. # [22:12] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3750. # [22:12] <timeless> ... spec isn't 100% clear
  3751. # [22:12] <timeless> ... Firefox has a behavior no one else has
  3752. # [22:13] * Joins: darobin_ (rberjon@public.cloak)
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  3755. # [22:13] <timeless> ... if you look at less than two
  3756. # [22:13] <timeless> ... it's clear that the spec isn't clear
  3757. # [22:13] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
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  3760. # [22:13] <timeless> ... the test follows Gecko's behavior
  3761. # [22:13] <timeless> ... no one else does
  3762. # [22:13] <timeless> ... spec probably needs to be clarified
  3763. # [22:13] <timeless> ... and the spec changed
  3764. # [22:13] <timeless> ... and then the others turn green
  3765. # [22:13] * Joins: Noriya (~Noriya@public.cloak)
  3766. # [22:13] <timeless> glenn_: doesn't mean it's correct
  3767. # [22:13] <plh> http://w3c.github.io/test-results/dom/less-than-2.html
  3768. # [22:14] <timeless> darobin: you can pass three things, one is a node filter
  3769. # [22:14] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak) (AndroUser2)
  3770. # [22:14] <timeless> ... it's exposed as a node filter, but the spec isn't clear how to construct that object
  3771. # [22:14] * glazou thinks he supports, based on his own implem, boris’s objection
  3772. # [22:14] * glazou hard to test here at SFO
  3773. # [22:14] <timeless> ... it's fairly clear that the spec doesn't define how to construct it
  3774. # [22:14] <timeless> ... i think that's a spec bug
  3775. # [22:14] * Joins: shepazutu (schepers@public.cloak)
  3776. # [22:14] <timeless> ... that's like createElement
  3777. # [22:14] * Joins: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak)
  3778. # [22:15] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3779. # [22:15] <timeless> ... and i'd like to remind people to discuss on www-dom@w3.org
  3780. # [22:15] <timeless> ... not public-html@
  3781. # [22:15] * Joins: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3782. # [22:15] <timeless> ... if there's no bug, create a bug
  3783. # [22:15] * Joins: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3784. # [22:15] <timeless> ... if there is, make sure there's a discussion on ML / in bug
  3785. # [22:15] <plh> q?
  3786. # [22:15] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
  3787. # [22:15] <timeless> ... whereever annevk is happy
  3788. # [22:15] <timeless> ack zcorpan_
  3789. # [22:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3790. # [22:16] <timeless> zcorpan_: you said the spec doesn't define if createDocument should create Document w/ html flag set/not
  3791. # [22:16] <timeless> ... but that isn't true
  3792. # [22:16] <timeless> ... the ED says ...
  3793. # [22:16] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  3794. # [22:16] <timeless> ... "a document is assumed to be an xml document unless it's flagged as being an html document"
  3795. # [22:16] <timeless> darobin: if you follow the spec to the letter, you'll get clear behavior
  3796. # [22:16] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3797. # [22:16] * Quits: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3798. # [22:16] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  3799. # [22:16] <timeless> ... you have an XML Document interface, its flag could be set to html
  3800. # [22:17] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  3801. # [22:17] <timeless> zcorpan_: there's no API to create XML Document w/ html flag set
  3802. # [22:17] <timeless> darobin: seems to be what chrome is doing
  3803. # [22:17] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3278
  3804. # [22:17] <timeless> ... if seems to be doing
  3805. # [22:17] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  3806. # [22:17] <timeless> zcorpan_: i pasted a link, and it seems to not be set
  3807. # [22:17] <timeless> darobin_: my tests were ...
  3808. # [22:17] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  3809. # [22:18] <timeless> darobin_: wrong case
  3810. # [22:18] <timeless> ... createDocument w/ html namespace
  3811. # [22:18] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  3812. # [22:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Mark_Vickers
  3813. # [22:18] <Zakim> Santabarbara has paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele, darobin, ddorwin
  3814. # [22:19] <timeless> Zakim, ddorwin has left Santabarbara
  3815. # [22:19] <Zakim> -ddorwin; got it
  3816. # [22:19] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3279
  3817. # [22:19] * shepazutu is now known as shepazu
  3818. # [22:19] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
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  3820. # [22:21] <darobin_> http://jsfiddle.net/003c04ew/1/
  3821. # [22:21] <darobin_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Oct/0007.html
  3822. # [22:21] <timeless> Zakim, joesteele has left Santabarbara
  3823. # [22:21] <Zakim> -joesteele; got it
  3824. # [22:21] * Quits: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  3825. # [22:21] * Joins: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3826. # [22:21] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3280
  3827. # [22:21] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3828. # [22:22] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3281
  3829. # [22:22] <timeless> darobin_: the other thing is that only gecko supports XMLDocument.load
  3830. # [22:22] <timeless> ... so we could kill that feature
  3831. # [22:22] <timeless> paulc: we used Gecko as a legacy implementation to get test results?
  3832. # [22:22] <timeless> darobin_: Gecko is pretty recent
  3833. # [22:22] <timeless> ... last time this was discussed... 3..5 years ago
  3834. # [22:22] <timeless> ... introduced by IE6? 5?
  3835. # [22:22] <timeless> ... Gecko emulated it
  3836. # [22:23] <timeless> ... 3..5 years ago, this had to be supported for compat
  3837. # [22:23] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3838. # [22:23] <timeless> ... then IE dropped it
  3839. # [22:23] <timeless> ... now, Gecko is the only one keeping it around
  3840. # [22:23] <timeless> ... so maybe we can drop thit
  3841. # [22:23] <zcorpan_> q+
  3842. # [22:23] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
  3843. # [22:23] <zcorpan_> q?
  3844. # [22:23] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
  3845. # [22:23] <timeless> ack zcorpan_
  3846. # [22:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3847. # [22:23] <timeless> zcorpan_: the last two links test namespaceuri instead
  3848. # [22:24] * Quits: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3849. # [22:24] <timeless> ... that shows a difference in chrome
  3850. # [22:24] <timeless> ... document w/ null namespace+tagname
  3851. # [22:24] <timeless> ... createElement creates an element in null ns
  3852. # [22:24] <timeless> ... if you do it w/ an html element, you get html ns
  3853. # [22:24] <timeless> ... that's bz's issue
  3854. # [22:24] <timeless> zcorpan_: that's a known bug/change
  3855. # [22:25] <timeless> ... it's where we wanted implementations to go
  3856. # [22:25] <timeless> darobin_: bz seemed to disagree w/ that direction
  3857. # [22:25] <timeless> zcorpan_: my opinion is that we should push impls in that direction
  3858. # [22:25] <timeless> darobin_: we're trying to find problems to actually help
  3859. # [22:25] <timeless> zcorpan_: i want it to go in this direction
  3860. # [22:25] <timeless> darobin_: discuss on list
  3861. # [22:26] <timeless> ... XMLDocument.load is an example
  3862. # [22:26] <timeless> ... bz said we needed it for compat
  3863. # [22:26] <timeless> ... but no one supports it
  3864. # [22:26] <timeless> ... if we can update and dropping it
  3865. # [22:26] <timeless> ... we now have much better results than 6 months ago
  3866. # [22:26] <timeless> ... nodeIterator wasn't there, and it found problems
  3867. # [22:26] <timeless> ... which is why i don't think we need to dig deep in meetings
  3868. # [22:27] <timeless> ... that's the plan
  3869. # [22:27] <timeless> paulc: schedule?
  3870. # [22:27] <timeless> ... priority list?
  3871. # [22:27] <timeless> darobin_: good to get it done not too long from now, in November
  3872. # [22:27] <timeless> plh: what are exact steps?
  3873. # [22:27] <timeless> ... to understand exact steps
  3874. # [22:27] <timeless> ... we need to identify what is important, and file bugs? start discussion?
  3875. # [22:28] <timeless> darobin_: same thing
  3876. # [22:28] <timeless> ... just a triage operation
  3877. # [22:28] <timeless> paulc: the spec is in CR
  3878. # [22:28] <timeless> darobin_: if we fix this, it'd go back
  3879. # [22:28] <timeless> paulc: do we want to run this on the new Process?
  3880. # [22:28] <timeless> [ new Process avoids needing LC ]
  3881. # [22:29] <rubys1> action: paulc prepare CfC concerning moving DOM4 to the new process
  3882. # [22:29] * RRSAgent records action 2
  3883. # [22:29] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  3884. # [22:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-250 - Prepare cfc concerning moving dom4 to the new process [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-11-07].
  3885. # [22:29] <timeless> plh: nice to have a list of the failures that matter
  3886. # [22:29] <timeless> paulc: triage list to ones we want to investigate
  3887. # [22:29] <timeless> ... identify those that need to change the specification
  3888. # [22:29] * Parts: astearns (~sid15080@public.cloak)
  3889. # [22:29] <timeless> darobin_: no cases we're sure of
  3890. # [22:29] <timeless> ... createDocument thing thought spec should match reality
  3891. # [22:29] <timeless> ... but there's pushback
  3892. # [22:30] <timeless> paulc: i'll hold my CfC until you show me at least one
  3893. # [22:30] <timeless> ... i'd like to refer to that in my CfC
  3894. # [22:30] <timeless> ... quantify, 10 failures or 100?
  3895. # [22:30] <timeless> darobin_: like 30 something
  3896. # [22:30] <timeless> [ ignoring IDL ones ]
  3897. # [22:30] <timeless> darobin_: 30 ... features
  3898. # [22:30] <timeless> ... the dom spec has a file per feature
  3899. # [22:31] <timeless> q?
  3900. # [22:31] <timeless> q+ plh
  3901. # [22:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3902. # [22:31] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  3903. # [22:31] <timeless> plh: you have 1100 failures total
  3904. # [22:31] <timeless> ... less than two, we might want to look at complete-fails instead
  3905. # [22:31] <timeless> ... half from nodeIterator
  3906. # [22:31] <timeless> ... quarter from WebIDL
  3907. # [22:31] <timeless> ... 250-300 individual tests failing
  3908. # [22:31] <timeless> ack plh
  3909. # [22:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3910. # [22:32] <timeless> darobin_: good spec, decent interop
  3911. # [22:32] <timeless> Josh_Soref: have you run a spell checker against your spec?
  3912. # [22:32] <timeless> darobin_: perhaps not
  3913. # [22:32] <timeless> ... different kind of lies
  3914. # [22:32] <timeless> ... lies, damn lies, spelling errors
  3915. # [22:32] <timeless> paulc: steps
  3916. # [22:32] <timeless> ... look at failures
  3917. # [22:32] <timeless> ... determine significance
  3918. # [22:32] <timeless> ... determine spec/tests
  3919. # [22:33] <timeless> ... consider moving to new Process if we need to make a breaking change to CR
  3920. # [22:33] <timeless> ... get early feedback from bz
  3921. # [22:33] <timeless> ... discussion on www-dom@w3.org
  3922. # [22:33] * Quits: tomoyuki (~Tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
  3923. # [22:33] <timeless> ... is that all?
  3924. # [22:33] <timeless> darobin_: yeah
  3925. # [22:33] <timeless> Topic: Extension Spec status
  3926. # [22:33] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  3927. # [22:33] * timeless http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionSpecifications
  3928. # [22:34] <timeless> paulc: Travis raised this
  3929. # [22:34] <timeless> i|Travis|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionSpecifications ExtensionSpecifications|
  3930. # [22:34] <timeless> paulc: EME/MSE, under dev in Media TF
  3931. # [22:34] * Joins: nigel (~nigel@public.cloak)
  3932. # [22:34] <timeless> ... sourceset= and <picture> should have been moved down
  3933. # [22:34] <timeless> ... "former extension specs"?
  3934. # [22:34] <timeless> rubys1: yes, should have been
  3935. # [22:34] <timeless> ... moved
  3936. # [22:35] <timeless> paulc: Public Identifiers for entity resolution in XHTML
  3937. # [22:35] <timeless> ... no progress made
  3938. # [22:35] <timeless> ... Form HTTP Extensions
  3939. # [22:35] <timeless> ... no progress made
  3940. # [22:35] <timeless> ... action: chairs to contact proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the specs
  3941. # [22:35] <timeless> ... Polyglot Markup: A robust profile of the HTML5 vocabulary
  3942. # [22:35] <timeless> ... it's in CR
  3943. # [22:36] <timeless> ... afaik, no one has submitted any TestCases
  3944. # [22:36] <timeless> ... leif promised to do that, even before CR
  3945. # [22:36] <timeless> s/leif/Leif H. Silli/
  3946. # [22:36] <rubys1> action: paulc to contact public identifiers and Form HTTP Extension proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the specs
  3947. # [22:36] * RRSAgent records action 3
  3948. # [22:36] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  3949. # [22:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-251 - Contact public identifiers and form http extension proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the specs [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-11-07].
  3950. # [22:36] * Joins: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak)
  3951. # [22:36] <timeless> ... chairs should look at what editors of spec say
  3952. # [22:36] <timeless> q?
  3953. # [22:36] <timeless> plh: look at status of editors themselves?
  3954. # [22:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3955. # [22:36] <timeless> paulc: yes
  3956. # [22:36] <timeless> ... Leif is very hard to contact
  3957. # [22:37] <timeless> ... pretty non-responsive to email
  3958. # [22:37] <timeless> MikeSmith: he's been away
  3959. # [22:37] <timeless> paulc: MikeSmith, if you have backchannel
  3960. # [22:37] <timeless> SteveF: i tried to contact him
  3961. # [22:37] <timeless> paulc: i know he physically moved residences
  3962. # [22:37] * timeless Steve-F ?
  3963. # [22:37] <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
  3964. # [22:37] <timeless> plh: is Eliot Graff still an editor?
  3965. # [22:37] <rubys1> action: paulc - Contact polyglot proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the spec
  3966. # [22:37] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  3967. # [22:37] * RRSAgent records action 4
  3968. # [22:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-252 - - contact polyglot proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the spec [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-11-07].
  3969. # [22:37] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  3970. # [22:37] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
  3971. # [22:37] <Zakim> Santabarbara has paulc, rubys, timeless, darobin
  3972. # [22:38] <timeless> paulc: HTML JSON form submission
  3973. # [22:38] <timeless> ... whose is this?
  3974. # [22:38] <timeless> darobin: mine
  3975. # [22:38] <timeless> paulc: statu
  3976. # [22:38] <timeless> s/u/us/
  3977. # [22:38] <timeless> darobin: large amount of developer interest
  3978. # [22:38] <timeless> ... emails weekly asking when it will ship
  3979. # [22:38] <timeless> ... no vendor interest
  3980. # [22:39] <timeless> ... traditionally vendors have no interest in developer ergonomics
  3981. # [22:39] <timeless> plh: a few vendors around the table
  3982. # [22:39] <timeless> darobin: stays in limbo
  3983. # [22:39] <zcorpan_> q+
  3984. # [22:39] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
  3985. # [22:39] <timeless> zcorpan_: are there bugs filed on browsers asking them to implement
  3986. # [22:39] <timeless> darobin: i'm not aware of
  3987. # [22:39] <timeless> ... i could do that if you think it'd be the most helpful
  3988. # [22:39] <timeless> zcorpan_: it's sometimes a working approach
  3989. # [22:40] <timeless> darobin: i'll take an action item
  3990. # [22:40] <timeless> paulc: ED is the most recent version?
  3991. # [22:40] <rubys1> action: darobin to file bugs on implementors re: HTML JSON form submission
  3992. # [22:40] * RRSAgent records action 5
  3993. # [22:40] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  3994. # [22:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-253 - File bugs on implementors re: html json form submission [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-11-07].
  3995. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> ack zcorpan_
  3996. # [22:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  3997. # [22:40] <timeless> darobin: i fixed a bunch of bugs before publishing
  3998. # [22:40] <timeless> ... a few since, nothing that would justify going for a WD at this point
  3999. # [22:40] * SteveF did that for outline algorithm...
  4000. # [22:40] <timeless> paulc: longdesc
  4001. # [22:41] <timeless> ... - A11y TF
  4002. # [22:41] <timeless> ... latest news:
  4003. # [22:41] <paulc> Longdesc CFC to move to PR: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0109.html
  4004. # [22:41] <timeless> ... link to CfC i sent seconds ago
  4005. # [22:41] <timeless> ... that CfC closes next Friday
  4006. # [22:41] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4007. # [22:42] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4008. # [22:42] <timeless> ... HTML5/HTML4 differences document
  4009. # [22:42] <timeless> ... zcorpan_ 's document
  4010. # [22:42] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
  4011. # [22:42] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  4012. # [22:42] <paulc> HTML5 to HTML4 differences CfC to WG Note: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0110.html
  4013. # [22:42] * timeless watches as everyone hits wifi snags at the same time
  4014. # [22:42] <timeless> ... we sent CfC to publish this document as a WG Note
  4015. # [22:42] <timeless> ... ideally we did it at the same time as publishing HTML5
  4016. # [22:42] <timeless> ... this closes Friday as well
  4017. # [22:43] <timeless> ... that closes off the work
  4018. # [22:43] <timeless> ... we should thank zcorpan_ for tracking the progress of HTML5 backwards against HTML4
  4019. # [22:43] <timeless> ... darobin has an action item to update the Landscape document
  4020. # [22:43] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 32.0.3/20140923175406]")
  4021. # [22:43] <timeless> ... recommendation of Editors+Chairs was to archive this as a WG Note
  4022. # [22:43] <timeless> ... both of those CfCs are open now
  4023. # [22:43] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  4024. # [22:43] <timeless> ... Anything else we need to look at?
  4025. # [22:44] <timeless> ... SteveF, Text Alternatives document
  4026. # [22:44] <plh> q+
  4027. # [22:44] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  4028. # [22:44] <timeless> ... it was supposed to be published before the meeting
  4029. # [22:44] <timeless> ... what happened?
  4030. # [22:44] <timeless> SteveF: yes, it got published
  4031. # [22:44] <timeless> ack plh
  4032. # [22:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  4033. # [22:44] <plh> http://w3c.github.io/resource-hints/
  4034. # [22:45] <timeless> plh: WebPerf WG published FPWD
  4035. # [22:45] <timeless> ... extending preload/preconnect
  4036. # [22:45] <timeless> s/ing/ing rel= to/
  4037. # [22:45] <timeless> ... wanted to raise it to the WG
  4038. # [22:45] <timeless> paulc: in spirit of work yesterday
  4039. # [22:45] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  4040. # [22:45] <timeless> ... when a WG like that asks this WG to review
  4041. # [22:45] <timeless> ... it would be really good to ask a pointed question
  4042. # [22:45] <timeless> ... so start leading by example here
  4043. # [22:46] <timeless> ... so if someone from WebPerf could send pointer to draft
  4044. # [22:46] <timeless> ... w/ pointer to concerns
  4045. # [22:46] <timeless> plh: i called it an ad more than anything else
  4046. # [22:46] <timeless> ... we aren't saying it's READY
  4047. # [22:46] <timeless> ... not asking for a formal review
  4048. # [22:46] <timeless> Cyril: this spec is under?
  4049. # [22:46] <timeless> plh: WebPerf WG
  4050. # [22:46] <timeless> ... impls in at least 2 browsers
  4051. # [22:47] <Cyril> q+
  4052. # [22:47] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
  4053. # [22:47] <timeless> ... experimental/deployed impls
  4054. # [22:47] <timeless> ... we expect that spec to move relatively fast
  4055. # [22:47] <timeless> rubys1: there are implementers?
  4056. # [22:47] <timeless> plh: yes
  4057. # [22:47] <timeless> ... implementation won't be an issue for that spec
  4058. # [22:47] <timeless> ... it might be in REC in 6 months
  4059. # [22:47] <timeless> ... at least shipped in a stable browser by then
  4060. # [22:47] <timeless> paulc: anyone else have any other Extension specs inside/outside WG?
  4061. # [22:48] <Cyril> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-sourcing-inband-tracks/
  4062. # [22:48] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  4063. # [22:48] <paulc> ack cyril
  4064. # [22:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  4065. # [22:48] * Quits: nigel (~nigel@public.cloak) ("")
  4066. # [22:48] <timeless> Cyril: HTML Sourcing inband tracks
  4067. # [22:48] <plh> s/in REC/shipped in stable browsers/
  4068. # [22:48] * glazou goes to plane gate and closes the laptop, bye guys
  4069. # [22:48] <timeless> ... as w/ plh, it's a WIP
  4070. # [22:48] <timeless> ... not final yet
  4071. # [22:48] <timeless> ... i'd like to ask people, in particular browser vendors, to review it
  4072. # [22:48] <timeless> ... if they could join the CG, that'd be helpful
  4073. # [22:48] * timeless CG == ??
  4074. # [22:48] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  4075. # [22:48] * timeless (which one)
  4076. # [22:49] <timeless> ... in HTML5 you can do src=mp4 file or
  4077. # [22:49] <timeless> ... mpeg-dash manifest
  4078. # [22:49] <timeless> ... if you want to build apps relying on tracks from the resource
  4079. # [22:49] <timeless> ... in an interoperable way
  4080. # [22:49] <timeless> ... we need a spec for that
  4081. # [22:49] <timeless> ... giving guidelines, normative text, for how that should be exposed
  4082. # [22:49] <timeless> ... Track has id property
  4083. # [22:50] <timeless> ... mp4 tracks have an id
  4084. # [22:50] <timeless> ... can we rely on them being the same?
  4085. # [22:50] <timeless> ... covers mp4, ogg, WebM, mpeg-dash, ...
  4086. # [22:50] <timeless> ... requests for HLS as well
  4087. # [22:50] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4088. # [22:50] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
  4089. # [22:51] <timeless> ... "Media Resource In-band Tracks Community Group"
  4090. # [22:51] <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
  4091. # [22:51] <timeless> ... labels, languages, would be properties of tracks
  4092. # [22:51] <timeless> q+ to ask why "Media Resource In-band Tracks Community Group" isn't in document
  4093. # [22:51] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  4094. # [22:51] <paulc> See http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#sourcing-in-band-text-tracks
  4095. # [22:51] <timeless> paulc: does it relate to this material in html5?
  4096. # [22:52] <timeless> Cyril: yes it does
  4097. # [22:52] <timeless> ... i'll take it that it should have an introduction
  4098. # [22:52] <timeless> ... pointing to that
  4099. # [22:52] <timeless> paulc: yes, that'd be good
  4100. # [22:52] <timeless> ack timeless
  4101. # [22:52] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask why "Media Resource In-band Tracks Community Group" isn't in document
  4102. # [22:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  4103. # [22:52] <timeless> Cyril: and that it should identify the CG
  4104. # [22:52] <timeless> paulc: darobin, didn't we give information about resources into html5
  4105. # [22:52] <timeless> darobin: a registry, yes
  4106. # [22:52] <timeless> paulc: similar thing
  4107. # [22:53] <timeless> ... can you whip up the ToC
  4108. # [22:53] <timeless> Cyril: that was only applicable to MSE
  4109. # [22:53] <timeless> paulc: no, it was in HTML5 as well
  4110. # [22:53] <timeless> ... we went to the Director w/ a question about non-normative references to things that sound like normative text
  4111. # [22:53] <timeless> ... you're right there are companion documents
  4112. # [22:53] <timeless> ... which say MUST
  4113. # [22:54] * Joins: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  4114. # [22:54] <timeless> ... but the origin pointer were non-normative
  4115. # [22:54] <timeless> ... If you have material that would be better for developers to see directly from html5
  4116. # [22:54] <timeless> ... if we could point directly, instead of backwards
  4117. # [22:54] <timeless> darobin: if you look at html5 spec
  4118. # [22:54] <timeless> ... there are parts that link to inband tracks
  4119. # [22:55] <darobin> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-html5-20141028/single-page.html search for [INBANDTRACKS]
  4120. # [22:55] <Cyril> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-html5-20141028/single-page.html#sourcing-in-band-text-tracks
  4121. # [22:56] <timeless> paulc: so this document is already referred to from html5
  4122. # [22:56] <timeless> ... yep
  4123. # [22:57] <timeless> Cyril: what words should we use?
  4124. # [22:57] <timeless> ... MUST?
  4125. # [22:57] <timeless> paulc: doesn't matter
  4126. # [22:57] <timeless> ... if you want to use rfc2119
  4127. # [22:57] <timeless> ... MUST
  4128. # [22:57] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  4129. # [22:57] * Joins: nigel (~nigel@public.cloak)
  4130. # [22:57] <timeless> ... we have a judgement from the Director
  4131. # [22:57] <timeless> ... that as long as the reference is non-normative
  4132. # [22:57] <timeless> darobin: yes, write it like a real spec
  4133. # [22:57] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4134. # [22:58] <timeless> rubys1: yes
  4135. # [22:58] <timeless> Cyril: and if someone claims conformance to HTML5 + INBANDTRACKS
  4136. # [22:58] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  4137. # [22:58] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  4138. # [22:58] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4139. # [22:58] <timeless> ... then rfc2119 must applies
  4140. # [22:58] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4141. # [22:58] <timeless> paulc: pattern in the past has been to have a F2F in Spring May/April
  4142. # [22:58] <timeless> ... and then TPAC
  4143. # [22:58] <timeless> ... next year, TPAC is this week in Saporo Japan
  4144. # [22:58] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  4145. # [22:59] <Cyril> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  4146. # [22:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html Cyril
  4147. # [22:59] <timeless> ... Chairs/Team were looking for hosts
  4148. # [22:59] <timeless> ... previously, PayPal hosted a couple of times
  4149. # [22:59] <rubys1> http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/
  4150. # [22:59] <timeless> ... Microsoft hosted it in Silicon Valley
  4151. # [22:59] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  4152. # [22:59] <timeless> ... we usually hosted in Silicon Valley, we get better attendance
  4153. # [22:59] <timeless> plh: difficulty
  4154. # [22:59] <timeless> ... we like to get WebApps to meet at the same time
  4155. # [23:00] <timeless> ... and when the two get together, others like to meet there then too
  4156. # [23:00] <timeless> ... Charter of this group runs out in June
  4157. # [23:00] <timeless> ... if you tell me in March you want to meet in April, not going to happen
  4158. # [23:00] <timeless> paulc: when I made the arrangements, it was hard 4 months in advance
  4159. # [23:00] * Joins: yinagaki (~yinagaki@public.cloak)
  4160. # [23:00] <timeless> ... 2+ rooms for 5 days
  4161. # [23:00] <timeless> ... not necessarily easy to find
  4162. # [23:00] <timeless> ... finding someone to Host+Pay is equally hard
  4163. # [23:00] <timeless> ... I don't want to wait until TPAC to meet
  4164. # [23:00] <timeless> ... in particular
  4165. # [23:01] <timeless> ... i'll be the person to throw a rock at
  4166. # [23:01] <timeless> ... if we don't meet
  4167. # [23:01] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  4168. # [23:01] <timeless> ... and I'm concerned about attendance @TPAC
  4169. # [23:01] <timeless> ... there's movement for January for Media TF meeting
  4170. # [23:01] <timeless> ... many of us have budgets
  4171. # [23:01] <timeless> ... we need to think about it
  4172. # [23:01] <timeless> ... I'd generally say yes
  4173. # [23:02] <timeless> rubys: anyone want to volunteer
  4174. # [23:02] <timeless> XXX: we might be able to host
  4175. # [23:02] <timeless> Cyril: in Paris
  4176. # [23:02] <timeless> ... France
  4177. # [23:02] * Joins: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak)
  4178. # [23:02] <timeless> XXX: we're a teaching institution
  4179. # [23:02] <timeless> ... we have trimesters
  4180. # [23:02] <timeless> ... school breaks around Christmas, Easter
  4181. # [23:02] * Quits: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  4182. # [23:02] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4183. # [23:03] <timeless> ... HTML meets Thu/Fri
  4184. # [23:03] <timeless> ... Wed, other groups piggyback
  4185. # [23:03] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  4186. # [23:03] <timeless> ... or HTML meets Mon, Tue
  4187. # [23:03] <timeless> ... WebApps meets later
  4188. # [23:03] <timeless> ... sometimes they're more realistic on who stays Fri
  4189. # [23:03] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaaa
  4190. # [23:03] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4191. # [23:03] <timeless> ... at least those two groups
  4192. # [23:03] <timeless> ... could be just four days
  4193. # [23:03] <timeless> ... in past, WebCrypto/WebAppSec
  4194. # [23:04] <timeless> ... because they want to overlap
  4195. # [23:04] <timeless> Cyril: no problem, we've hosted hundreds
  4196. # [23:04] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  4197. # [23:04] <timeless> rubys: Paris in April doesn't sound bad
  4198. # [23:04] <timeless> plh: AC meeting is May
  4199. # [23:04] <timeless> s/is/is beginning of/
  4200. # [23:04] * Joins: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak)
  4201. # [23:04] <timeless> ... some people would like to have that meeting the week before/after
  4202. # [23:05] <timeless> paulc: i think you've found one
  4203. # [23:05] <timeless> rubys: May 5-7 AC meeting in Paris, France
  4204. # [23:05] <timeless> Cyril: i'll take action to confirm availability
  4205. # [23:05] * timeless rubys who spoke up beyond Cyril ?
  4206. # [23:06] * Quits: nigel (~nigel@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  4207. # [23:06] <timeless> paulc: give us an offer
  4208. # [23:06] <timeless> ... Canadians will bring beer
  4209. # [23:06] * timeless Cyril who did you look to behind+ to right?
  4210. # [23:06] <timeless> plh: how late can you book those rooms?
  4211. # [23:06] <timeless> ... what would you recommend?
  4212. # [23:06] <timeless> XXX: reserve them now for both dates
  4213. # [23:06] <timeless> paulc: high cost in losing
  4214. # [23:07] <timeless> ... not a high cost in giving them back
  4215. # [23:07] <timeless> plh: now i have to ask other WGs
  4216. # [23:07] <timeless> XXX: room for 20 people?
  4217. # [23:07] <timeless> plh: I need 1 rooms 4 days, 50 people
  4218. # [23:07] <jcverdie> s/XXX/JC Dufourd
  4219. # [23:07] <timeless> XXX: that's difficult
  4220. # [23:07] <timeless> s/JC Dufourd/jcdufourd/
  4221. # [23:07] <timeless> s/XXX:/jcdufourd:/
  4222. # [23:08] <timeless> s/XXX:/jcdufourd:/
  4223. # [23:08] <timeless> s/XXX:/jcdufourd:/
  4224. # [23:08] <timeless> s/XXX:/jcdufourd:/
  4225. # [23:08] <timeless> jcdufourd: some rooms are teach classrooms, less comfortable, forward oriented, fixed tables
  4226. # [23:08] <timeless> plh: we try to limit attendance of other WGs
  4227. # [23:08] <timeless> ... but i get slapped
  4228. # [23:08] <timeless> ... one room is certain
  4229. # [23:09] <timeless> ... in the past, i don't want them to meet, they insisted
  4230. # [23:09] <timeless> paulc: plh, AC meeting is Tue-Thu
  4231. # [23:10] <timeless> jcdufourd: Jean-Claude Dufourd
  4232. # [23:10] <timeless> paulc: no complaints about Paris in spring
  4233. # [23:10] <timeless> ... anything else?
  4234. # [23:10] <timeless> plh: none from me
  4235. # [23:10] <timeless> paulc: round of applause for Josh_Soref
  4236. # [23:11] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  4237. # [23:11] <timeless> paulc: thank you
  4238. # [23:11] <joesteele> +1 -- Josh you are awesome
  4239. # [23:11] <rubys> +1
  4240. # [23:11] <myakura> +1
  4241. # [23:11] <timeless> ... I know i'll benefit from a good mintues
  4242. # [23:11] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
  4243. # [23:11] <timeless> s/tues/utes/
  4244. # [23:11] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  4245. # [23:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Mark_Vickers, +1.408.536.aaaa
  4246. # [23:11] <Zakim> Santabarbara has paulc, rubys, timeless, darobin
  4247. # [23:11] <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
  4248. # [23:11] <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aaaa
  4249. # [23:11] * Quits: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  4250. # [23:12] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  4251. # [23:12] * Quits: rubys2 (~rubys@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  4252. # [23:12] <timeless> ... thanks to W3C for arranging / hosting us here at the Marriott
  4253. # [23:12] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  4254. # [23:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  4255. # [23:12] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  4256. # [23:12] * Quits: shoko (~shoko@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
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  4259. # [23:12] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  4260. # [23:13] * Quits: yinagaki (~yinagaki@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  4261. # [23:13] * Quits: Noriya (~Noriya@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  4262. # [23:13] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  4263. # [23:13] * Quits: song (~song@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  4264. # [23:14] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
  4265. # [23:14] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
  4266. # [23:14] * trackbot is ending a teleconference.
  4267. # [23:14] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
  4268. # [23:14] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been BobLund, paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele, darobin, Domenic, ddorwin, Aaron_Colwell, Mark_Vickers, +1.408.536.aaaa
  4269. # [23:14] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  4270. # [23:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html trackbot
  4271. # [23:14] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
  4272. # [23:14] <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  4273. # [23:14] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Robin to triage new WHATWG updates, HTML bugs, Landscape document in order to list priority content for modules [1]
  4274. # [23:14] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T17-10-37
  4275. # [23:14] <Zakim> -Santabarbara
  4276. # [23:15] <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:30AM has ended
  4277. # [23:15] <Zakim> Attendees were BobLund, paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele, darobin, Domenic, ddorwin, Aaron_Colwell, Mark_Vickers, +1.408.536.aaaa
  4278. # [23:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: paulc prepare CfC concerning moving DOM4 to the new process [2]
  4279. # [23:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T21-29-04
  4280. # [23:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: paulc to contact public identifiers and Form HTTP Extension proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the specs [3]
  4281. # [23:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T21-36-08
  4282. # [23:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: paulc - Contact polyglot proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the spec [4]
  4283. # [23:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T21-37-41
  4284. # [23:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: darobin to file bugs on implementors re: HTML JSON form submission [5]
  4285. # [23:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T21-40-20
  4286. # [23:15] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak) (RRSAgent)
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  4324. # Session Close: Sat Nov 01 00:00:00 2014

The end :)