/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2010-02-19 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Feb 19 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #microformats
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# [15:49] <mwunsch> Can anybody point me to some good examples of vCards?
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# [15:49] <mwunsch> Want to make sure i'm structuring mine properly
# [16:04] <csarven> mwunsch There are plenty in the wiki hcard-examples
# [16:05] <csarven> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild
# [16:11] <mwunsch> csarven: thanks
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# [19:37] <manu-home> hey tantek: trying to get Julian to join...
# [19:37] <@tantek> hey manu
# [19:41] <@tantek> ok I have an unrelated question, how is http://to./ a valid URL, and what is the TLD?
# [19:41] <manu-home> While we wait, here's the HTML WG issue that is related to @profile in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
# [19:42] <manu-home> looks like .to is the TLD?
# [19:42] * Joins: reschke (~chatzilla@p508FC732.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [19:42] <manu-home> Hi Julian :)
# [19:42] <reschke> good evening :-)
# [19:42] * manu-home has never heard of .to TLD.
# [19:42] <reschke> Togo?
# [19:43] * manu-home would like to register http://go.to/
# [19:43] <reschke> appears you're too late
# [19:43] <reschke> ok then
# [19:43] <manu-home> Tonga
# [19:43] <reschke> O I c
# [19:43] <manu-home> Tonga TLD == .to, but still no idea why http://to./ works
# [19:44] <manu-home> anyway, @Profile.
# [19:44] <manu-home> Julian, we're discussing ISSUE-55, right?
# [19:44] <reschke> Tantek's proposal has the nice property of not requiring the support of a certain set of people.
# [19:44] <manu-home> in the HTML WG tracker?
# [19:44] <manu-home> I think RDFa community would support @profile everywhere.
# [19:44] <reschke> yes, that's the issue
# [19:45] <manu-home> we may process it differently, but from what I understand, that would be fine.
# [19:45] <reschke> so if we made this a stand-alone spec
# [19:45] <reschke> we'd also allow it everywhere - so we would go beyond what HTML4 said
# [19:45] <reschke> right?
# [19:45] <@tantek> reschke - I don't really see any political aspects as a strength or weakness - I'd rather focus on the technical and documentation merits.
# [19:46] <manu-home> tantek - here's the previous @profile proposal that we worked on: http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-epb.html
# [19:46] <reschke> sure, but I've had enough of politics over the last seven days, so less controversy sounds good to me
# [19:46] <manu-home> It was just an attempt at a proposal... but that is the form we're thinking about, right?
# [19:46] <@tantek> I think the idea is worthy on its technical and architectural merit
# [19:47] * manu-home agrees.
# [19:47] * reschke too
# [19:47] <@tantek> manu - haven't had time to review your draft. I was envisioning something simple starting from what I wrote up for XMDP.
# [19:47] <reschke> If it wasn't we wouldn't be discussing it
# [19:47] <@tantek> and then extending that to every element
# [19:47] <manu-home> but HTML WG has a difficult history... so we need to at least be aware of that going forward.
# [19:47] <reschke> So Manu's "old" document has @profile for <head>, link/@rel=profile, and "my" HTML 4.01 erratum
# [19:48] <@tantek> manu - I'd rather proceed forward with assumption of good faith.
# [19:48] <reschke> would it make sense to use that as a staring point?
# [19:48] <reschke> ...starting...
# [19:48] <manu-home> tantek: yes, we're proceeding with assumption of good faith.
# [19:48] <reschke> yep
# [19:48] <@tantek> I'd rather start with XMDP and extend it to all elements
# [19:48] <reschke> which brinngs us to the question - *where* do we want to do that
# [19:48] <manu-home> here's what I'm concerned about: if we miss the deadline for @profile response.
# [19:49] <manu-home> that takes @profile off of the table
# [19:49] <@tantek> It's fairly minimal and neutral
# [19:49] <manu-home> not only for HTML spec, but for any future separate spec, IIRC.
# [19:49] <reschke> I think we need to be able to communicate a plan
# [19:49] <@tantek> manu - I disagree - it takes @profile in the core HTML5 spec off the table
# [19:49] <@tantek> which I think is fine
# [19:49] <manu-home> Maciej just argued that just because something is split apart, or put together in the HTML5 spec, it doesn't change the scope of what the issues apply to.
# [19:50] <reschke> Manu - RDFa-in-XHTML doesn't use @profile, right?
# [19:50] <manu-home> RDFa in XHTML /does/ use @profile.
# [19:50] <manu-home> but it's a SHOULD, not a MUST.
# [19:50] <reschke> but doesn't require - right
# [19:50] <@tantek> I think the problem is with abstract extensibility being in the core HTML5 spec
# [19:50] <reschke> ok, so from that point of view it would be a spec that RDFa-in-HTML would want to cite, right?
# [19:51] <manu-home> I agree with the sentiment and want that to be the way it is, Tantek - but we just had something happen in HTML WG that demonstrates that the chairs may not agree with us.
# [19:51] <@tantek> perhaps - not clear that dependency is necessary
# [19:51] <@tantek> manu - I'm confident that reasonable proposals made in good faith will be listened to
# [19:51] <@tantek> I'd really like to minimize any rhetoric otherwise
# [19:51] <manu-home> ok
# [19:52] <reschke> which makes Tantek our spokesman :-)
# [19:52] <manu-home> I'd be fine with that.
# [19:52] <reschke> so...
# [19:52] <@tantek> similarly, I'm also fine with posting the profile on any element proposal as a draft on microformats.org
# [19:52] <@tantek> and contributing it to HTML WG
# [19:52] <manu-home> or you Julian - I'm slammed at the moment, so shouldn't be in the critical path for this.
# [19:52] <reschke> are we going to say: "yes we're doing a change proposal", but it involves creating a separate spec?
# [19:52] <@tantek> since that's a pattern that is simi?�p"to specs being posted on WHATWG and being contributed to HTMLWG
# [19:53] <@tantek> this isn't a change proposal though
# [19:53] <@tantek> that's the point
# [19:53] <@tantek> this is a separate spec
# [19:53] <reschke> understood
# [19:53] <reschke> but I think Manu is right...
# [19:53] * manu-home is getting dejavu.
# [19:53] <@tantek> I actually like the idea of keeping HTML5 more minimal
# [19:53] <reschke> ...in that letting the date slip away may weaken the position for adding it as a separate spec.
# [19:53] * manu-home agrees.
# [19:53] <reschke> but then
# [19:54] <reschke> this would be a spec with 3 independant supporters
# [19:54] <manu-home> also true.
# [19:54] <reschke> so Sam's rule should apply
# [19:54] <reschke> and we're *certainly* in scope
# [19:54] <reschke> as we're just saving/extending something that is in HTML4 and in use
# [19:54] <reschke> so separate spec it is?
# [19:55] <manu-home> yes
# [19:55] <manu-home> Julian - we're good if we just ask for an extension and say that the three of us are working on a proposal.
# [19:55] <reschke> sure
# [19:55] <manu-home> just to cover our bases.
# [19:55] <reschke> I can send email for that
# [19:55] <manu-home> great, thx.
# [19:55] <@tantek> manu, I generally agree with section 3 HTML 4.01 Errata in your draft, as that seems compatible with XMDP
# [19:55] <reschke> do we want to talk about the venue where to write the spec?
# [19:55] <@tantek> and the level of detail is appreciated
# [19:55] <reschke> I personally don't care.
# [19:55] <@tantek> I'm not sure about the first part though
# [19:56] <reschke> I'd prefer not to have to drive it, but would certainly contribute stuff and moral support
# [19:56] <manu-home> I'm not tied to the first part in any way.
# [19:56] <@tantek> ok
# [19:56] <manu-home> I didn't try @profile everywhere because there didn't seem to be support for it in HTML WG.
# [19:56] <manu-home> and we were going from no @profile, to @profile back in head.
# [19:56] <@tantek> I've been transitioning and updating/errating XMDP to the microformats wiki overtime, and this is a good reason to generalize that and expand it to permit more flexible processing
# [19:56] <manu-home> going from no @profile to @profile everywhere might have freaked people out.
# [19:57] <reschke> it was discussed shortly and I think there was some sympathy for making it more useful if it reappears
# [19:57] <reschke> so it might be exactly the opposite
# [19:57] <@tantek> manu - I agree that profile everywhere might "freak some people out" but that's only in the core spec IMHO
# [19:57] <reschke> so...
# [19:57] <@tantek> reschke - I think that's true too - the key is to document a very good processing model
# [19:57] <@tantek> I tried to do that starting with XMDP
# [19:58] <reschke> so
# [19:58] <@tantek> but clearly there is an expectation of more details with HTML5
# [19:58] <reschke> - we don't want to touch HTML5 core
# [19:58] <manu-home> tantek: the question of validation will come up - is @profile everywhere valid for HTML5 UAs?
# [19:58] <reschke> - we want to publish in the HTML WG
# [19:58] <manu-home> I say that it is valid.
# [19:58] <reschke> - but we need some more time?
# [19:58] <@tantek> or rather, we want to agree that dropping "profile" from HTML5 head element makes sense at this time given current usage
# [19:58] <reschke> it is as valid as Microdata or RDFa
# [19:58] <manu-home> reschke: yes.
# [19:58] <reschke> ...or it would be...
# [19:59] <@tantek> manu - regarding validation, ask the same question of microdata or RDFa
# [19:59] <@tantek> or any extension
# [19:59] <@tantek> you should get the same answer
# [19:59] <reschke> right
# [19:59] <manu-home> tantek: yes, exactly my point - the answer is "we haven't figured that out yet"
# [19:59] <@tantek> manu - and that's ok for a spec in progress
# [19:59] * manu-home nods.
# [19:59] <@tantek> just express a desire that validation works similarly for such extensions
# [20:00] <reschke> I'm still not 100% happy about this (validation) in conjuction with the text/html re-reg, but that's a different battle to fight (different issue and change proposals)
# [20:00] <manu-home> it would put more pressure on the HTML WG to figure it out.
# [20:00] <@tantek> because that seems to make sense, place them on similar footing, similar understanding for authors etc.
# [20:00] <reschke> absolutely
# [20:00] <manu-home> right
# [20:00] <manu-home> We've been trying to get that answer out of HTML WG and WHAT WG for a while now.
# [20:00] <@tantek> I'm ok with the folks who care about validation driving the need to figure out exactly how validating extensions works
# [20:00] <manu-home> that would be Henri
# [20:00] <@tantek> I think they'll have to figure out a way that is fairly equivalent for all extensions
# [20:00] <manu-home> who has written validators for both RDFa and Microdata.
# [20:00] <reschke> and Mike Smith, actually
# [20:01] <reschke> oh, did he?
# [20:01] <manu-home> I believe he did... last I checked.
# [20:01] <manu-home> RDFa (without CURIE support) was definitely in there
# [20:01] <reschke> but they aren't hooked to validator.nu right now, as far as I know
# [20:01] <manu-home> and it was experimental.
# [20:02] * manu-home sighs - he removed the RDFa one.
# [20:02] <manu-home> ok
# [20:02] <manu-home> so separate spec
# [20:02] <manu-home> Tantek, do you have text that we could use?
# [20:02] <manu-home> in the separate spec.
# [20:02] <reschke> so do we want to include the link relation? It wouldn't be needed for HTML then, but might be useful in other places?
# [20:03] <manu-home> I say keep it out for now.
# [20:03] <manu-home> unless we have a clear use case for it.
# [20:03] <@tantek> right, I trust them to be critical but do the right thing from a technical perspective, which I think is correct.
# [20:03] <@tantek> manu - what do you think should be the scope of this document?
# [20:03] <reschke> might be a good candidate to test the IANA registry when it's there
# [20:03] <@tantek> should we simply propose profile as an extension to HTML5
# [20:03] <reschke> but can of course be defined separately
# [20:03] <@tantek> or also include an informative errata for HTML 4.01?
# [20:03] <reschke> 1) yes
# [20:04] <reschke> 2) I think it would be good to have that erratum published somehwere
# [20:04] <@tantek> or also include an informative extension for HTML4.01 (similar to how ARIA extends HTML4/XHTML)
# [20:04] <manu-home> tantek: scope should be simple - proposal profile as extension to HTML5, propose that @profile be allowed everywhere.
# [20:04] <reschke> ...but it appears the W3C isn't looking towards opening that can of worms
# [20:04] <@tantek> In other words, I don't see a need to tie "profile on any element" to requiring HTML5
# [20:04] <@tantek> does that make sense?
# [20:04] <reschke> oh ARIA does? Then we might want to do that as well
# [20:04] <manu-home> hrm.
# [20:05] <reschke> that makes a lot of sense; it would be great to have this in HTML4
# [20:05] <@tantek> I would agree with keep the link relation *separate*
# [20:05] <@tantek> i'd like to continue to evolve rel-profile here: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-profile
# [20:05] <reschke> does it add complexity? (doing it for all of HTML)?
# [20:05] <reschke> i'm fine with that
# [20:05] <manu-home> I'm concerned about addressing too many things with this draft.
# [20:05] <reschke> ok, so let's park the link relation for now
# [20:06] <manu-home> I'm definitely concerned about saying anything about "fixing HTML4"
# [20:06] <@tantek> reschke - I don't think it adds complexity
# [20:06] <@tantek> manu - hence why I suggested *informative* errata
# [20:06] <@tantek> for HTML 4.01
# [20:06] <reschke> so informative erratum for HTML 4.01 for head/@profile
# [20:06] <manu-home> if it's informative, Maciej will question why it's in the spec at all... since it seems to be a conformance requirement for HTML4.01
# [20:06] <@tantek> thus if someone ever decides to do a HTML 4.02 or HTML 4.1 that *just* fixes HTML 4.01 (no new features) then they could incorporate it
# [20:07] <reschke> and an extension for HTML in general for @profile everywhere?
# [20:07] <@tantek> reschke - see how ARIA does this
# [20:07] <manu-home> tantek: yes, I do see the positive benefit of it.
# [20:07] <reschke> ok
# [20:07] <reschke> I think there's no problem keeping the erratum (it's ready anywhere); in the worst case we can still drop it.
# [20:07] <@tantek> the point is that something doesn't have to be normative right away in order to eventually have a potential positive impact
# [20:08] <manu-home> true
# [20:08] <@tantek> the erratum that Manu wrote up is pretty good already
# [20:08] <reschke> maybe we should just post it as attachment on www-archive so it get's a stable URL for now...=
# [20:08] <reschke> ?
# [20:08] <@tantek> I would only suggest/make editorial changes
# [20:08] <manu-home> Ok, so we're talking about this spec having two things: @profile everywhere proposal, HTML 4.01 Erratum.
# [20:08] <@tantek> informative HTML 4.01 erratum
# [20:08] <@tantek> errata - sorry - since they are plural :)
# [20:08] <manu-home> right
# [20:09] <reschke> something that we can point people to when they complain about the HTML4 spec
# [20:09] <@tantek> and possibly a third, informative use of profile in HTML4, similar to use of ARIA in HTML4/XHTMl1
# [20:09] <@tantek> reschke - right
# [20:09] <reschke> it's also a useful base for talking about @profile in HTML x with x > 4.01
# [20:09] <@tantek> and if the people that are concerned about HTML4 want to take the informative errata and push them to be normative - that can be done later and indepenently
# [20:09] <reschke> ok then
# [20:10] <manu-home> ok
# [20:10] <reschke> proposal: I'll put together a mail, and let you review it, then send it to the mailing list
# [20:10] <reschke> unless somebody volunteers
# [20:10] <@tantek> I think we can start drafting on microformat.org/wiki as soon as time permits us
# [20:10] <reschke> we can also hop over to etherpad and do it together.
# [20:10] <manu-home> that sounds good, you get the e-mail ready
# [20:10] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki that is
# [20:10] <manu-home> proposal: I can edit/merge text for the proposal and put it in a form that HTML WG will accept.
# [20:11] <@tantek> I can do a rough draft with combining of XMDP and Manu's HTML 4.01 errata
# [20:11] <@tantek> if there is no objection
# [20:11] <manu-home> tantek: I'll need suggestions, edits, text from you
# [20:11] <manu-home> great
# [20:11] <manu-home> no, that sounds perfect.
# [20:11] <manu-home> order of operations:
# [20:11] <@tantek> manu - would you be ok with us developing/iterating this draft on the microformats wiki?
# [20:11] <manu-home> that would be fine
# [20:11] <manu-home> you're a part of HTML WG, Tantek?
# [20:11] <@tantek> from which we can ship snapshots to HTMLWG as needed?
# [20:11] <@tantek> manu, yes
# [20:12] <manu-home> ok, good, no IPR issues then.
# [20:12] <manu-home> tantek: sounds like a plan.
# [20:12] <@tantek> not only that, but just as WHATWG has a better copyright license that W3C, so does microformats.org
# [20:12] * manu-home nods.
# [20:12] <@tantek> WHATWG uses MIT license, microformats.org uses CC public domain + CC0
# [20:12] <@tantek> this is a good thing
# [20:13] <@tantek> I think many folks will express sympathy with this style of spec development
# [20:13] <manu-home> 1) Julian drafts e-mail to HTML WG, Manu and Tantek review, give feedback. Julian sends @profile e-mail to HTML WG.
# [20:13] <manu-home> 2) Tantek and Manu edit uF wiki with spec text.
# [20:13] <manu-home> 3) Manu puts a snapshot of spec text on uF wiki into a format that HTML WG will be okay with.
# [20:13] <mwunsch> Question about Vcards, is there a vCard validator? I've exported a vcard from my parser, and it looks totally correct, but apple says 'No importable cards found'
# [20:13] <@tantek> ok, so just so I can start a stub, would /wiki/html5-profile be ok? or alternative short name suggestions?
# [20:14] <manu-home> tantek: that works for me.
# [20:14] <reschke> html-profile?
# [20:14] <reschke> no 5?
# [20:14] <@tantek> mwunsch - yeah, vCard validation is a problem
# [20:14] <@tantek> reschke - I suggest the 5 just to show the focus
# [20:14] <manu-home> hrm, no 5 would be good if we intend this to apply to HTML4.01 as well.
# [20:14] * manu-home smiles
# [20:14] <@tantek> the normative bits apply to 5
# [20:14] <mwunsch> tantek -- It's odd: Apple recognizes this as a vCard, I am able to view it as a vCard in Quick Look; but I am unable to import it into my address book
# [20:15] <reschke> manu: http://etherpad.com/cUatuLNdYH
# [20:15] <@tantek> it's fine to have the informative errata in the same document that applies to previous versions of HTML and XHTML
# [20:16] <@tantek> mwunsch - that is very odd - have you tried converting the same hCard using H2VX and looked at the vCard it produces?
# [20:16] <@tantek> do a file comparison?
# [20:16] <mwunsch> let me try that
# [20:16] <manu-home> ok, I have to run - anything else before I leave?
# [20:17] <@tantek> manu - ok I'll start drafting it. unless there is objection, I'll put you down as co-author and myself as editor for now.
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# [20:21] <reschke> do we want to give an estimated ETA for a first draft?
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# [20:25] <reschke> man, I love etherpad. Start it, write a sentence, and let other people do the rest.
# [20:25] * manu-home snickers.
# [20:26] <manu-home> that was a trap, wasn't it.
# [20:26] <reschke> always
# [20:26] <reschke> but then it's evening over here, and I already had my first beer.
# [20:26] <reschke> Should I send this?
# [20:26] <manu-home> looks good to me
# [20:26] <manu-home> tantek?
# [20:27] <reschke> ...pasted into email to the two of you, in case Tantek is away
# [20:28] <reschke> he's probably already drafting
# [20:30] * reschke goes back to RFC editing for now
# [20:31] * manu-home waves.
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# [20:31] * reschke will be around a bit longer in case Tantek comes back
# [20:34] <@tantek> here
# [20:35] <@tantek> just doing some wiki editing
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# [20:52] <@tantek> reschke - first draft (not complete) but posted: http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
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# [21:03] <reschke> superb
# [21:04] <reschke> maybe we should put that into the email as well?
# [21:05] <@tantek> nah - I think it's too incomplete to be worthy of the HTMLWG's attention at this time
# [21:05] <@tantek> the curious folks will find it
# [21:05] <@tantek> I'm editing the etherpad with a few more details
# [21:06] <reschke> right
# [21:07] <@tantek> do we need to promise when a FPWD will be ready?
# [21:08] <reschke> i think we should give an *estimate* for something that could be ready for FPWD.
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# [21:08] <@tantek> how about we just say that a draft x��n progress on the microformats wiki for those who are curious.
# [21:08] <reschke> my experience is that it usually takes at least as long as we plan for.
# [21:09] <manu-home> hey guys
# [21:09] <@tantek> and say that we don't have an estimate for when a FPWD will be ready.
# [21:09] <reschke> three weeks for an initial proposal should be ok
# [21:09] <@tantek> hey manu
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# [21:09] <@tantek> reschke - SXSW is in 3 weeks and I will be unable to commit to that
# [21:09] <manu-home> The only concern I have is giving people a reason to question the work.
# [21:09] <manu-home> I'll commit to 3 weeks from now.
# [21:10] <reschke> if it's five week i'll be ok as well
# [21:10] <@tantek> I'd rather say that we don't have a specific date for when a FPWD will be ready, but if there are f��3� that are interested in seeing something sooner please speak up.
# [21:10] <manu-home> if all it entails is copying text verbatim from uF wiki to HTML WG spec.
# [21:10] <reschke> As long as it's clear that the three of use commit ourselves to do this.
# [21:10] <manu-home> tantek: I'm fine with that as well.
# [21:10] <@tantek> just saying that we're actively working on it in the open I think is sufficient
# [21:11] <@tantek> that way people that care can read updates as they wish
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# [21:11] <@tantek> without waiting for a FPWD
# [21:11] <@tantek> and that also removes the need to commit to a particular date
# [21:11] <@tantek> I'd rather push for a FPWD when we feel the contents are worthy, than a specific date.
# [21:11] <reschke> yes, and we want to encourage (constructive) discussion anyway
# [21:11] <@tantek> and transparent development
# [21:12] <reschke> I'm ok with both.
# [21:12] <manu-home> ditto
# [21:13] <manu-home> I think we should give /some/ idea of how long we think this is going to take, though.
# [21:13] <manu-home> we don't want to leave it open ended.
# [21:13] <manu-home> especially since we're asking for an extension.
# [21:13] <@tantek> we're not asking for an extension
# [21:13] <reschke> something in between
# [21:13] <reschke> :-)
# [21:13] <@tantek> we should be very clear we are ok with amicably closing the issue
# [21:13] <@tantek> that shows good faith up front
# [21:14] <reschke> Can we say "by the end of March" and be done with that?
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# [21:14] <@tantek> we can say we hope to have a FPWD by the end of March, but will only propose it if we think the contents are worthy of it by then.
# [21:14] <manu-home> we should make sure that by amicably closing the issue that we don't shut the door on @profile in any spec published via HTML WG first
# [21:14] <@tantek> we don't because this is new information
# [21:14] <@tantek> profile attribute on all elements is new information
# [21:14] <reschke> manu: yes, that's why we're sending this proposal in the context of ISSE-55.
# [21:15] <@tantek> I'm really not worried about door closings like that
# [21:15] <manu-home> We should make sure that the chairs agree with us.
# [21:15] <@tantek> why? I think the chairs are reasonable
# [21:15] <reschke> I think by sending feedback in time we're ok.
# [21:15] <@tantek> I don't think we need to worry about that frankly
# [21:15] <@tantek> we shouldn't ask anyone to agree with us in advance for a proposal etc.
# [21:15] <@tantek> I don't think that's reasonable
# [21:16] <manu-home> hrm, I think there is some miscommunication going on here.
# [21:16] <reschke> no, we don't ask for agreement; we just announce our plan.
# [21:16] <manu-home> I think that we should very clearly state our plan.
# [21:16] <manu-home> right.
# [21:16] <@tantek> better to just say something like, we consider the generalization of the profile attribute to all elements to be new information and outside the scope of this current issue.
# [21:16] <manu-home> I'd be fine with that.
# [21:16] <manu-home> that would give anyone the opportunity to respond if they don't think that is the case.
# [21:16] <@tantek> that way, we're clear what we mean, and transparent with future plans
# [21:17] <@tantek> right
# [21:17] * manu-home nods.
# [21:17] <@tantek> much better to express expectation of good faith of other participants rather than attempt to bind people into agreeing IMHO
# [21:17] <manu-home> we are in violent agreement.
# [21:18] <@tantek> I think in general the chairs tend to look more favorably upon folks who help encourage more civil discussions/culture/community in the working group.
# [21:18] <@tantek> Plus I think it helps set a good example.
# [21:18] <manu-home> yup
# [21:18] <manu-home> so, that clause should be added to the e-mail Julian.
# [21:19] <reschke> so one more edit to the mail?
# [21:19] <@tantek> I've been editing the etherpad directly - can we update there?
# [21:20] <reschke> sure, that was the point
# [21:20] <@tantek> manu - feel free to add scope and FPWD expectations language per the above
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# [21:32] <mwunsch> tantek: The problem was, i was saving my output as .vcard, not .vcf
# [21:32] <mwunsch> Not sure...why that was causing an issue though
# [21:32] <mwunsch> But HMachine can successfully convert hcards to vcards
# [21:32] <mwunsch> :-)
# [21:32] <mwunsch> pushing to github now
# [21:33] <@tantek> woohoo!
# [21:33] <@tantek> thanks mwunsch
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# [21:36] <@tantek> thanks manu and reschke - I think the html5-profile proposal is a good idea for many reasons
# [21:36] <@tantek> a few more minor updates - but definitely in need of more work:
# [21:36] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
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# Session Close: Sat Feb 20 00:00:00 2010

The end :)