/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2011-08-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 11 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:00] <@tantek> singpolyma, np. reading specs is hard. and annoyingly so. I sympathize.
  4. # [00:00] <voxpelli> tantek: From: A page for a user activity. To: A feed containing that users identitiy.
  5. # [00:01] <voxpelli> To: A feed containing that users _activity_
  6. # [00:01] <@tantek> I think that's what rel="home alternate" solves
  7. # [00:01] <@tantek> assuming their home page shows their activity
  8. # [00:01] <@tantek> which, e.g. in Twitter, it does
  9. # [00:01] <@tantek> if you have other examples, then we'll have to look at specific URLs
  10. # [00:02] <voxpelli> tantek: Take a multi-author blog - the "home" of the multi-author blog is very different to that of its author feeds.
  11. # [00:03] <@tantek> hard to discuss / reason about without looking at a specific example
  12. # [00:03] <@tantek> e
  13. # [00:03] <singpoly1a> tantek: rel="index alternate" maybe? (index means page where the activity is, yeah?)
  14. # [00:03] <@tantek> no index does not mean that
  15. # [00:03] <@tantek> that's what I tried first actually :)
  16. # [00:03] <singpoly1a> ah
  17. # [00:03] <@tantek> then I looked at the specific definition of rel-index
  18. # [00:04] <voxpelli> tantek: never mind - you are losing me in thoughts here. If you want to add your thoughts on "home alternate" and such to the activity streams mailing list you at least know about the discussion there now.
  19. # [00:04] <Loqi> [[rel-home]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-home&diff=44375&oldid=44374&rcid=57519 * Tantek * (+55) see also
  20. # [00:06] <@tantek> rel-index "Refers to a document providing an index for the current document. "
  21. # [00:06] <voxpelli> tantek: I'm not trying to complicate things - just trying to wrap my head around how to do discovery in a social landscape and using simply rel="alternate" everywhere and nothing else seems like too little semantics
  22. # [00:06] <@tantek> voxpelli - I think that's what I was saying (losing me in the example) :)
  23. # [00:06] <@tantek> hence I needed a specific example to take aloof at
  24. # [00:06] <@tantek> a look
  25. # [00:06] <@tantek> damnyouosxlionautocorrect
  26. # [00:07] <@tantek> voxpelli - I think we mostly agree
  27. # [00:07] <@tantek> I'm just trying to build up the specific proposed solutions based on specific examples / problems to solve.
  28. # [00:07] <voxpelli> tantek: I understand, but there's so many missing bits and different bits in this social discovery space right now that it's easy to get lost.
  29. # [00:07] <@tantek> rel="home alternate" solve the blog post permalink page linking to the feed for the blog problem. examples, personal site, like tantek.com, and hosted content, like twitter.com/t
  30. # [00:08] <@tantek> if you want to solve a "multi-author blog" problem - then it will help if you can link to a specific instance of one
  31. # [00:09] <@tantek> so that we can better understand the structure / links that we're dealing with
  32. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Does the twitter stream page count?
  33. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> For a mroe traditional example, lifehacker or gizmodo or something like that.
  34. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> reddit is a slightly non-traditional one. lesswrong.com looks more traditional, but is built on reddit.
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  36. # [00:11] <voxpelli> tantek: on a related question - has there been any discussion on rel="author" in microformats lately? Are the community behinds Googles usage of it?
  37. # [00:11] <@tantek> voxpelli, btw I am opposed to rel="activitystream" - I think rel="alternate" type="application/activitystream+json" works fine
  38. # [00:12] <@tantek> rel="author" predates Google's proposal/usage btw
  39. # [00:12] <@tantek> from my cursory understanding it looks like Google adopting the existing semantic
  40. # [00:12] <voxpelli> tantek: I'm feeling more and more the same - I guess I'm better at asking questions then at finding solutions
  41. # [00:12] <@tantek> voxpelli - btw, feel free to invite the activity streams folks to discuss rel values here
  42. # [00:12] <@tantek> in #microformats
  43. # [00:13] <@tantek> TabAtkins - what's the Twitter stream page?
  44. # [00:13] <voxpelli> will do
  45. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> tantek: The page you get when you first enter twitter after ahving logged in.
  46. # [00:13] * @tantek sighs. you ask for a URL and you get names. will assume ".com" unless otherwise specified.
  47. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Uh, yes.
  48. # [00:14] <@tantek> your logged in twitter home page doesn't have a feed. so therefore not an example for this problem space.
  49. # [00:16] <@tantek> whoa - Twitter mentions tab now includes when people favorite your tweets!
  50. # [00:16] <@tantek> twitter.com/mentions
  51. # [00:17] <@tantek> lol at the timing
  52. # [00:17] <@tantek> now goes to: https://twitter.com/your_activity
  53. # [00:18] <@tantek> and there's also https://twitter.com/activity
  54. # [00:27] <@tantek> TabAtkins, Lifehacker.com is a sad example of a multi-author blog - they don't provide feeds for specific authors :/
  55. # [00:27] <@tantek> e.g. on a page of posts by a specific author: http://lifehacker.com/people/Gyroscope352/ it only provides feed links to all of Lifehacker (or Lifehacker "top posts)
  56. # [00:28] <@tantek> so, crappy example, nothing we can reason with.
  57. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> tantek: Try lesswrong.com. They provide feeds for individual authors.
  58. # [00:31] <@tantek> yup that one looks fine. an author page: http://lesswrong.com/user/KPier/ links to the RSS just for that author with rel="alternate". that's correct. and doesn't bother to link to a global feed (which is fine, and thus, not our problem)
  59. # [00:31] * Quits: voxpelli (~anonymous@83.176.255.215) (Quit: voxpelli)
  60. # [00:32] <@tantek> and a post by that author http://lesswrong.com/lw/70d/theory_of_knowledge_rationality_outreach/ links to a feed of comments on that post with rel="alternate" - also correct. and doesn't provide a feed to that author as a whole which is again fine, and also not our problem.
  61. # [00:33] <@tantek> (this is why we ask for specific examples)
  62. # [00:33] <@tantek> (it may turn out that in practice, a problem doesn't exist)
  63. # [00:34] <@tantek> voxpelli - so again, if you want to explore the multi-author blog case and possible challenges, try to find actual example URLs of multi-author blogs that have such challenges.
  64. # [00:34] <@tantek> (none of the provided examples have the mentioned theoretical challenges)
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  66. # [00:40] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/yetanotherjosh] @stlhood @lmorchard srsly. I thought he'd start ranting on the evils of microformats. I sensed he hated kittens, too.
  67. # [00:47] <@tantek> lol
  68. # [00:48] <lmorchard> Ah, yes, my evil twin was apparently encountered in SF
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  71. # [01:01] <@tantek> voxpelli - I've added some additional material/links to http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/Autodiscovery based on our discussion in IRC (linked to it)
  72. # [01:04] * hober makes a sad noise about the demise of rel=feed
  73. # [01:04] <@tantek> voxpelli - I still don't understand what specific problem you're trying to solve with rel="author alternate" in your latest message here https://groups.google.com/d/topic/activity-streams/XJm-AwQJigo/discussion
  74. # [01:05] <@tantek> hover, feed was too late - authors/publishers and implementers had already adopted rel="alternate" type="application/foo+xml" and that was "good enough"
  75. # [01:05] <@tantek> rel="feed" didn't provide enough justification for its existence (significant advantages etc.)
  76. # [01:06] <singpoly1a> I'm not sure what the point of a rel="feed" would be
  77. # [01:08] <hober> yes, it was too late
  78. # [02:14] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/t1c1] @sparker04 Limited use of #Schema bc 1) lack of guidance from search engines 2) continued RDFa/Microformat debate 3) unclear #w3c recipes
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  89. # [05:17] <Loqi> [[rel-home]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-home&diff=44376&oldid=44375&rcid=57520 * Tantek * (+114) /* use with rel-alternate */ added subheads for semi-perma-linking and stuff
  90. # [05:18] <Loqi> [[rel-home]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-home&diff=44377&oldid=44376&rcid=57521 * Tantek * (+65) /* FAQ home alternate */ and @apparentlymart asked the same question
  91. # [05:20] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/STANZ_G] Naija naira codes 10naira-red, 20naira-blue, 50naira-sky, 100naira-Hcard...
  92. # [05:20] <@tantek> hey Loqi that doesn't really have anything to do with hCard
  93. # [05:20] <Loqi> dude
  94. # [05:20] <@tantek> seriously
  95. # [05:22] <Loqi> [[rel-home]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-home&diff=44378&oldid=44377&rcid=57522 * Tantek * (+206) /* discuss home alternate */ use IRC for discussion, feel free to record your opinion here
  96. # [05:24] <Loqi> [[rel-home]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-home&diff=44379&oldid=44378&rcid=57523 * Tantek * (+123) /* discuss home alternate */ fix typo, plus quote dglazkov
  97. # [05:30] <Loqi> [[rel-home]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-home&diff=44380&oldid=44379&rcid=57524 * Tantek * (+80) /* FAQ home alternate */ code semantic, emphasize normative language of the spec
  98. # [05:32] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/t] @apparentlymart rel values can combine, eg "alternate stylesheet". See FAQ http://ufs.cc/w/rel-home#FAQ_home_alternate (ttk.me/t4DG6)
  99. # [05:37] <@tantek> ok, I'm impressed Loqi - nowhere in that tweet does it mention microformats - perhaps Twitter is searching the segments of URLs *after* they've followed all the redirects?
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  104. # [06:22] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/TitoAyiti] @apparentlymart rel values can combine, eg "alternate stylesheet". See FAQ http://ufs.cc/w/rel-home#FAQ_ho... http://bit.ly/rtLMxe #Tito
  105. # [06:59] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@173-228-64-221.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  106. # [07:10] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/_Flint] Bitcoin Microformats for Chrome - http://t.co/zUNOqEs #bitcoin #chrome
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  108. # [07:28] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/aarondelani] Microformats, HTML5... so basically, I'm brushing up.
  109. # [07:28] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/today0] Microformats, HTML5... so basically, I'm brushing up.
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  112. # [07:50] <@tantek> Dear Loqi, could you keep track of a list of Twitter spammers? e.g. TitoAyiti. cc:aaronpk
  113. # [07:50] * Loqi grins profusely
  114. # [08:18] <Loqi> [[rel-alternate]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-alternate&rcid=57525 * Tantek * (+3228) drafted to explain and provide examples of how rel-alternate is quite the special rel value, not that independent, and combines with other rel values and attributes to do special things
  115. # [08:19] <Loqi> [[rel-home]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-home&diff=44382&oldid=44380&rcid=57526 * Tantek * (+96) /* see also */ rel-alternate special combinations
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  117. # [08:38] <Loqi> [[rel-alternate]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-alternate&diff=44383&oldid=44381&rcid=57527 * Tantek * (-13) simplify heading
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  122. # [09:40] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/neogeografen] Ikke så tit jeg skriver om "E45" men crowdsoucing eksempel med DK første midlertidige motorvej skal lige med http://t.co/WEU6U4G #osm
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  129. # [12:00] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/webbstrategi] @nikkelin @davidnilsson @bolstad Tack, ngn av er som vet hur Google hämtar infon? API, markup (ex. microformat) i html eller annat sätt?
  130. # [12:29] * Joins: ivc (ivc3@elitus.x-pec.com)
  131. # [13:00] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/SitePolice] Использование микроформата hCard для географической привязки сайта http://t.co/O34ShuO
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  134. # [13:42] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/keshabraj] Microformats http://bit.ly/bx0aGL
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  136. # [14:36] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/herbertwest1] Savez vous s'il existe des microformats spécifiques aux vidéos? #seo cc @webrankinfo
  137. # [15:08] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/valerierose] @foodtechconnect Recipe microformats are bass ackwards. Computers work for us. Not the other way around. That's why bloggers hate them.
  138. # [15:14] * Quits: voxpelli (~anonymous@mmx.flattr.net) (Quit: voxpelli)
  139. # [15:39] <singpoly1a> tantek: yes, twitter searches the expanded form of short urls
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  142. # [16:00] <Loqi> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=44384&oldid=44355&rcid=57528 * Ins inf * (+140) /* new and uncategorized examples */
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  144. # [16:08] * ericduran is now known as ericduran|scrum
  145. # [16:08] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/juliendorra] @Hadrien right, MetaFragments is on the level of microformats v1 (microformats v2 being more ambitious). Weaving together existing specs.
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  151. # [17:42] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/thomasvandam] Check out the Summer Smackdown: RDFa vs. Microformats vs. schema.org Microdata - today 8/11 @ 6 PM at Ceilis Irish Pub (670 Smithe St)
  152. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> Um, what?
  153. # [18:03] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B3268F2.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  154. # [18:20] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/richardbaxter] Nice one Google - Microformats working for retail sites (non-3rd party partner providers!)
  155. # [18:24] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/jaffamonkey] @usabilitycounts Linkedin resume is good format & microformat-friendly, and in PDF format also :) Agencies still obsessed with Word CVs!
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  170. # [19:44] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/jpw23nh] @micmierzwa @Drisgill What are your thoughts on coding HTML on pub sites to use Microformats? Making them machine readable?
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  172. # [20:02] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/TerpSkins70] Just added a new discussion on 919 Business Networking - Local Business Owners & Professionals http://ning.it/oHOoG1
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  177. # [20:50] <KevinMarks> http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/uslocations/mountain-view/custsupport/consumer-operations-consumer-experience-specialist-google-search-mountain-view/ Google hiring a Rich Snippets specialist to work with publishers. Do we know anyone suitable?
  178. # [20:54] <Loqi> [[rel-alternate]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-alternate&diff=44385&oldid=44383&rcid=57529 * Kevin Marks * (+6) /* special combinations */ use 'alternative' in prose as 'alternate' means something else
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  186. # [23:19] <@tantek> KevinMarks - W3C uses the term "alternate style sheets" thus it makes sense to keep it consistent
  187. # [23:20] <@tantek> and I think you have it backwards
  188. # [23:20] <@tantek> "alternate" is the correct use - meaning other than the default
  189. # [23:20] <@tantek> whereas "alternative" is more associated with cultural references, e.g. "alternative lifestyle" etc.
  190. # [23:20] <Loqi> [[rel-alternate]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-alternate&diff=44386&oldid=44385&rcid=57530 * Tantek * (-6) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Kevin Marks|Kevin Marks]] ([[User talk:Kevin Marks|Talk]]) to last version by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
  191. # [23:25] <@tantek> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Alternative provides more examples where "alternative" is used to designate something as its own thing, not just as an alternate (ahem) to something else.
  192. # [23:26] <@tantek> whereas "alternate" is always used as a substitute for something, always secondary, never primary
  193. # [23:28] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/sumathemes] HTML5 and microformats for pragmatists http://t.co/DFQLp6n
  194. # [23:28] <@tantek> I think the challenge may be that the difference I'm referencing is a fairly modern (since mid/late 20th century) distinction, and thus contrasts with earlier (e.g. Webster 1913 and earlier) dictionary definitions.
  195. # [23:29] <@tantek> thus I should rephrase when I said "'alternate' is the correct use" - more accurately, "alternate" is the *modern* use.
  196. # [23:31] <@tantek> and "alternative" implies some sort of specific primary cultural differentiation (e.g. "alternative lifestyle", "alternative rock", "alternative medicine" etc. as listed on https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Alternative )
  197. # [23:52] * Quits: ericduran (~ericduran@173-203-243-241.static.cloud-ips.com) (Quit: ericduran)
  198. # Session Close: Fri Aug 12 00:00:00 2011

The end :)