/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-08-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 30 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  27. # [04:08] <gp5st> i'm looking at the schema.org and microformats.org geo definitions, there is not (optional) field for planet or body. what would be the proper way to go about proposing that?
  28. # [04:09] <aaronpk> :) I was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask that
  29. # [04:09] <gp5st> oh? :)
  30. # [04:10] <gp5st> i run a site about mars and thought that microformats would be useful. i hate the idea of just augmenting the standard on my own site. the other option is just for people to assume that any coordinates are about mars, but in theory they could be for other bodies (planet, moon, asteroid)
  31. # [04:11] <aaronpk> here's something: http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-nonWGS84
  32. # [04:11] <aaronpk> and http://microformats.org/wiki/mars
  33. # [04:12] <gp5st> i'm looking at the mars one (sorry i'm going through this slowly:-\_ and i don't like the idea of rooting it differently for every body
  34. # [04:12] <gp5st> i hadn't got to the extentions before you showed me. that looks pretty much like what i was envisioning
  35. # [04:14] <gp5st> awesome:) sorry for asking before reading everything
  36. # [04:15] <aaronpk> it's ok! I wouldn't have thought to go look until you mentioned it
  37. # [04:16] <gp5st> i love the idea of embedding all of this data, i'm just sad it'll take a while to fully implement on my side:)
  38. # [04:21] <gp5st> i have to go. my wife and I are setting a no electronics after 10pm rule
  39. # [04:21] <gp5st> take care! and thank you!
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  41. # [04:32] <aaronpk> good rule!
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  47. # [06:52] <Loqi> [[index.php?title=Mediawiki]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=index.php%3Ftitle%3DMediawiki&rcid=61606 * ColumbusWoodall * (+3287) New page: Look at the Email : You will be informed by the bureaus with their analysis outcomes through mail. They're going to notify you should the product ended up being validated or removed. Cont...
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  49. # [07:54] <Loqi> [[User:Nuynism]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:Nuynism&rcid=61607 * Nuynism * (+499) https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=209575334180599290101.0004c7da6d505e13a0372&msa=0
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  53. # [08:51] <Loqi> [[index.php?title=Mediawiki]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=index.php%3Ftitle%3DMediawiki&diff=47170&oldid=47168&rcid=61608 * ChiefRA * (-3287) removed spammy content
  54. # [08:52] <Loqi> [[User:Nuynism]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:Nuynism&diff=47171&oldid=47169&rcid=61609 * ChiefRA * (-499) removed spammy content
  55. # [08:53] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Nuynism]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  56. # [08:53] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:ColumbusWoodall]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  57. # [08:54] <ChiefRA> ;)
  58. # [08:54] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[User:Nuynism]]": content was spam
  59. # [08:54] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[index.php?title=Mediawiki]]": content was spam
  60. # [08:54] <ChiefRA> [05:10] <gp5st> i have to go. my wife and I are setting a no electronics after 10pm rule
  61. # [08:54] <ChiefRA> :)))))))))))))))))))))))))
  62. # [08:54] <ChiefRA> this is something
  63. # [08:55] <@tantek> heh
  64. # [08:55] <ChiefRA> so after 10pm they watch the stars and the moon out of the window perhaps as the TV is an electronic device.
  65. # [08:55] <ChiefRA> or even better, the love eachother deeply :))))
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  68. # [10:14] <ChiefRA> tantek did you see any real life implementations on microformats 2 yet?
  69. # [10:14] <ChiefRA> do you heard/know if Google started to support this?
  70. # [10:34] <@tantek> ChiefRA - folks from Google have been asking about it. Which is usually a good sign.
  71. # [10:34] <@tantek> I think there are further simplifications we can make too.
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  73. # [11:02] <ChiefRA> tantek I believe so, but I was wondering if Google accept and recognize them yet.
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  87. # [14:24] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/onsecrethunt :: Author hReview WordPress Plugin – Rate Your Reviews http://t.co/J9niULoI
  88. # [14:24] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/VarinderOSH :: Author hReview WordPress Plugin – Rate Your Reviews http://t.co/gmhzu5n3
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  94. # [16:16] <Loqi> [[BeanlbsmchwmoRajaphoumy]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=BeanlbsmchwmoRajaphoumy&rcid=61614 * BeanlbsmchwmoRajaphoumy * (+3229) New page: These days in the us, pretty much all states including Colorado, you can now lawfully cultivate weed [http://www.cannabisseedsforsale.net/ See our favourite seeds here]. The conjunction in...
  95. # [16:22] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/FreeWSOdownload :: Free download: WSO - WP Author hReview (Plugin) http://t.co/7QX9U90f
  96. # [16:32] <Loqi> [[BeanlbsmchwmoRajaphoumy]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=BeanlbsmchwmoRajaphoumy&diff=47173&oldid=47172&rcid=61615 * ChiefRA * (-3229) removed spammy content
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  99. # [17:40] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/shendison :: OOPS! Someone just spotted white text on a white bg on my site for hcard review code and phoned me.#bad #SEO #fail #fixednow
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  110. # [20:16] <@tantek> Thanks ChiefRA
  111. # [20:16] <@tantek> also: re: Google and uf2, not yet as far as I know. we don't usually find out until after they start supporting something.
  112. # [20:17] <@tantek> btw have you tried using microformats2 yourself with any of your markup to see how easy or hard it is to add to your existing markup?
  113. # [20:19] <@tantek> barnabywalters - I was looking at your home page to see how you marked up your stream, and checking out the hAtom, when I noticed this: </p><p>16:22:05</time></p>
  114. # [20:19] <@tantek> it appears you may have some unbalanced / overlapping open/close p tags!
  115. # [20:19] <@tantek> and also, for the hAtom, you'll need to put the published updated class names on the actual time element, not on the surrounding div
  116. # [20:20] <@tantek> once you've gotten all that taken care of, I have some questions for you about your experience with microformats, and in particular with h-entry (if you've taken a look at it)
  117. # [20:20] * Quits: romainneutron (~romain@LPuteaux-156-14-100-19.w80-12.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: romainneutron)
  118. # [20:21] <barnabywalters> tantek: weird coincidence, I am currently going through all my new markup and applying mf2 to it in a more intelligent way
  119. # [20:21] <barnabywalters> thanks for the tip off
  120. # [20:22] <@tantek> good then this is a good time to ask about uf2 h-entry
  121. # [20:22] <barnabywalters> absolutely
  122. # [20:22] <@tantek> my experience with it so far is that it seems like some of the class names are either redundant with existing microformats2 class names or unnecessary
  123. # [20:22] <@tantek> note that I mapped h-entry directly from hAtom hentry as a first attempt
  124. # [20:22] <barnabywalters> give me a sec, I'll push my latest changes to my test server
  125. # [20:23] <barnabywalters> tantek: which h-entry class names have you found to be redundant?
  126. # [20:25] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=47174&oldid=47155&rcid=61618 * Tantek * (+575) /* h-entry */ capturing some issues and opportunities for simplification, fewer overall class names
  127. # [20:25] <@tantek> there, finally hit save on a page I was editing last night and fell asleep before saving apparently
  128. # [20:25] <@tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-entry
  129. # [20:27] <@tantek> the "entry-" distinction has made no difference in practice.
  130. # [20:27] <@tantek> e.g. summary vs. entry-summary
  131. # [20:27] <@tantek> content vs. entry-content
  132. # [20:27] <@tantek> and now that we have the standard default class name of p-name in microformats2
  133. # [20:27] <@tantek> that can subsume p-entry-title as well
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  135. # [20:28] <barnabywalters> plus for notes where the content *is* the title, the result is rather ridiculous: entry-content entry-title p-entry-title p-entry-content p-entry-summary
  136. # [20:28] <@tantek> initially we mapped the Atom spec's exact semantics for entry title, summary, content to hAtom
  137. # [20:28] <@tantek> well, almost - you can omit the *-summary in that case :)
  138. # [20:29] <@tantek> so with hAtom for notes you have: entry-title entry-content
  139. # [20:29] <@tantek> for h-entry, I'm trying to simplify this to: p-name e-content
  140. # [20:29] <@tantek> no more entry-* specific properties
  141. # [20:29] <@tantek> I don't see much if any of a practical / relevant difference between a "summary" in hCal/iCal and an entry "summary" in hAtom/Atom
  142. # [20:30] <barnabywalters> tantek: 'summary' is one of the few bits of data which is consistent across all my content types
  143. # [20:31] <@tantek> iCal: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2445#section-4.8.1.12 SUMMARY: This property defines a short summary or subject for the calendar component.
  144. # [20:31] <barnabywalters> I cannot find explanations of the mf2 prefixes
  145. # [20:31] <barnabywalters> what does e- signify?
  146. # [20:31] <barnabywalters> yuk. iCal format is horrible
  147. # [20:31] <@tantek> e- = embedded markup
  148. # [20:31] <barnabywalters> ah, okay
  149. # [20:32] <barnabywalters> is there anywhere the various prefixes are explained? I was confused by them initially
  150. # [20:32] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing
  151. # [20:32] <@tantek> I need to move that up to a higher section - you're the second person to give that feedback
  152. # [20:33] <@tantek> in continuing previous thread on summary:
  153. # [20:33] <@tantek> Atom: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287#section-4.2.13 The "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.
  154. # [20:34] <@tantek> I claim that for all practical purposes that's the same semantic (between iCal and Atom)
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  156. # [20:34] <barnabywalters> well I can't think of any use cases off the top of my head where a summary *isn't* supposed to do that
  157. # [20:34] <@tantek> and I don't see anyone evolving Atom at this point to diverge from that
  158. # [20:34] <@tantek> also note:
  159. # [20:34] <@tantek> "It is not advisable for the atom:summary element to duplicate
  160. # [20:34] <@tantek> atom:title or atom:content because Atom Processors might assume there
  161. # [20:34] <@tantek> is a useful summary when there is none."
  162. # [20:34] <@tantek> (from that same URL)
  163. # [20:35] <@tantek> so I don't think "entry-*" adds any relevant semantic
  164. # [20:35] <barnabywalters> agreed
  165. # [20:35] <@tantek> I think this is what we've learned in our years of experience with hAtom
  166. # [20:36] <@tantek> so switching from "entry-content" to "content" (in practice e-content or p-content) is an obvious thing to do to
  167. # [20:36] <@tantek> that just leaves entry-title
  168. # [20:36] <barnabywalters> so the question is: is the p-name semantic the same for h-card and h-entry?
  169. # [20:36] <@tantek> well, p-name is the more broad "name of the thing" as you see it / publish it
  170. # [20:37] <@tantek> so in vCard, that equates to fn
  171. # [20:37] <@tantek> (and hence hCard)
  172. # [20:37] <@tantek> so in h-card, p-name replaces p-fn
  173. # [20:37] <barnabywalters> fn always confused me. I could never remember whether or not it was full name or forename
  174. # [20:37] <@tantek> (so many people are confused by "fn", and so many people also independently invent a "name" property instead)
  175. # [20:38] <@tantek> so we already decided that's getting fixed in uf2
  176. # [20:38] <@tantek> back to entry-title
  177. # [20:38] <@tantek> in Atom: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287#section-4.2.14 : The "atom:title" element is a Text construct that conveys a human-readable title for an entry or feed.
  178. # [20:38] <@tantek> tautological much?
  179. # [20:39] <barnabywalters> heh
  180. # [20:39] <@tantek> title conveys a human-readable title
  181. # [20:39] <@tantek> great, that means next to nothing
  182. # [20:39] <barnabywalters> yep — could be almost anything
  183. # [20:39] <@tantek> so I think it is reasonable to say instead that authors typically publish the *name* of an entry, and it's often *displayed* as a title
  184. # [20:40] <@tantek> in practice "title" is rarely a semantic (except in vCard/hCard where it really means job-title)
  185. # [20:40] <barnabywalters> this is particularly relevant from an activitystreams POV, e.g. object title vs something like "Barnaby posted a note"
  186. # [20:40] <@tantek> "title" usually just for display
  187. # [20:40] <@tantek> so I dislike the term for that reason - in practice it doesn't convey a semantic, it conveys a presentation
  188. # [20:41] <@tantek> I think Dublin Core got that wrong too
  189. # [20:41] <@tantek> blame the librarians
  190. # [20:41] <@tantek> think about: title of a book vs. name of a book
  191. # [20:41] <barnabywalters> I had forgotten about dublin core
  192. # [20:41] <@tantek> title of a movie vs. name of a movie
  193. # [20:41] <@tantek> heh
  194. # [20:41] <@tantek> title of a song, vs. name of a song
  195. # [20:41] <@tantek> title of an album, vs. name of an album
  196. # [20:41] <@tantek> which do you use in common speech?
  197. # [20:42] <barnabywalters> I would use name, and my brother agrees
  198. # [20:43] <barnabywalters> title also used for aristocratic crap re people
  199. # [20:43] <barnabywalters> which introduces extra ambiguity
  200. # [20:43] <@tantek> google also agrees
  201. # [20:43] <@tantek> google searches that is
  202. # [20:43] <@tantek> for each of those phrases quoted
  203. # [20:43] <@tantek> the "name of " version wins by 2-10x
  204. # [20:43] <@tantek> in EVERY case
  205. # [20:43] <@tantek> book, movie, song, album
  206. # [20:44] <barnabywalters> iTunes agrees — name column, not title column
  207. # [20:44] <@tantek> yes another data point - UI
  208. # [20:44] <barnabywalters> applies for books too, interestingly
  209. # [20:44] <@tantek> also, "name of an article" wins over "title of an article"
  210. # [20:44] <@tantek> in gsearch
  211. # [20:44] <barnabywalters> books is one case where I would associate *title* more than *name*
  212. # [20:45] <barnabywalters> yep, I think "name of article" not "title"
  213. # [20:45] <@tantek> however, "name of a book" is 44m vs. "title of a book" 7.5m in gsearch result counts
  214. # [20:46] <barnabywalters> for me it varies with context.
  215. # [20:46] <@tantek> even if we give title the benefit of the doubt and allow for "book title" - that's only 16.4m results
  216. # [20:46] <@tantek> "name of a book" crushes "title of a book" and "book title" COMBINED.
  217. # [20:47] <barnabywalters> although I would use name to refer to the name and title to refer to the actual printed title
  218. # [20:47] <@tantek> "actual printed title" = presentational!
  219. # [20:47] <@tantek> that's the point I was making
  220. # [20:47] <barnabywalters> so the conclusion is, name wins
  221. # [20:47] <@tantek> title = presentational, not semantic!
  222. # [20:47] <@tantek> Dublin Core was/is wrong.
  223. # [20:47] <@tantek> English has evolved to shift to using "name" rather than "title"
  224. # [20:48] <@tantek> as per the evidence of Google searches of web publishing
  225. # [20:48] <@tantek> it's time to deprecate "title" as any kind of a generic semantic, and maybe relegate it only to things like "job-title"
  226. # [20:48] <@tantek> so for uf2
  227. # [20:48] <@tantek> since we have p-name
  228. # [20:48] <@tantek> for h-entry
  229. # [20:48] <@tantek> we no longer need p-entry-title
  230. # [20:49] <@tantek> and h-entry to Atom processors can simply convert the "p-name" to an <entry:title> for legacy backcompat purposes.
  231. # [20:49] <@tantek> that's the case I'm making
  232. # [20:49] <@tantek> a) does it make sense?
  233. # [20:49] <@tantek> b) any objections?
  234. # [20:50] <barnabywalters> from me: a) yes and b) no
  235. # [20:50] <@tantek> anybody else?
  236. # [20:51] <@tantek> I think benward had some doubts when I first posed it as a possibility quite a while ago - I wonder if he's changed his mind.
  237. # [20:51] <@tantek> Phae? aaronpk (since you've been working with hAtom a bunch) ? hober (since you <3 bikeshedding :) ) mkowens (always insightful) ?
  238. # [20:52] <@tantek> or anyone else in the channel who has an opinion, especially if you're familiar with (and even use/publish) hAtom
  239. # [20:53] <@tantek> bbiab
  240. # [20:53] <@tantek> (please contribute and continue discussion)
  241. # [21:03] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=47175&oldid=47174&rcid=61619 * Tantek * (+354) /* combining microformats */ answer some questions, stick with one canonical hierarchical JSON representation of uf2
  242. # [21:07] <hober> tantek: a) yes, b) not from me.
  243. # [21:08] <hober> just paint the shed goldenrod
  244. # [21:37] * Quits: jkridner_ (~jason@pdpc/supporter/active/jkridner) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  245. # [21:37] * Joins: jkridner_ (~jason@pdpc/supporter/active/jkridner)
  246. # [21:40] <Loqi> [[Actions vs ipab DistractionsPressure happens when you focus on Distractions Performance happens when you focus on Actions]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Actions_vs_ipab_DistractionsPressure_happens_when_you_focus_on_Distractions_Performance_happens_when_you_focus_on_Actions&rcid=61620 * EulalieKnowles * (+1017) New page: [[Image:ipab_4293.jpg|thumb|]] Issorai ": Na sci
  247. # [21:48] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:EulalieKnowles]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  248. # [21:48] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Actions vs ipab DistractionsPressure happens when you focus on Distractions Performance happens when you focus on Actions]]": content was spam
  249. # [23:24] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  250. # [23:51] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-89-241-96-144.as13285.net) (Quit: barnabywalters)
  251. # Session Close: Fri Aug 31 00:00:00 2012

The end :)