/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-09-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 01 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  16. # [04:34] <Loqi> [[Xiaxue Slut2718286]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Xiaxue_Slut2718286&rcid=61627 * ArethaozailkfazwJaneiro * (+507) New page: [http://XiaxueSlut.blogspot.com Xiaxue Bitch] Slut or slattern is a term applied to an individual who is considered to have loose sexual morals or who is sexually promiscuous. The term is...
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  18. # [05:19] <Loqi> [[Xiaxue Bitch9247127]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Xiaxue_Bitch9247127&rcid=61628 * HaroldqzsukfwdnlBieniek * (+501) New page: [http://Xiaxueslut.blogspot.com Xiaxue] Slut or slattern is a term applied to an individual who is considered to have loose sexual morals or who is sexually promiscuous. The term is gener...
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  24. # [08:09] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:ArethaozailkfazwJaneiro]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  25. # [08:09] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:HaroldqzsukfwdnlBieniek]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  26. # [08:09] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Xiaxue Bitch9247127]]": content was spam
  27. # [08:09] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Xiaxue Slut2718286]]": content was spam
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  45. # [13:46] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/pretty_girl_014 :: omegash sana tlaga si papa hcard ka date ni mama dawn haayy...wag sanang hopia
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  57. # [16:20] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/FreeWSOdownload :: Free download: WSO - WP Author hReview (Plugin) http://t.co/7QX9U90f
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  74. # [20:46] <aaronpk> Anybody know of a web service that takes a URL and outputs a JSON interpretation of the microformats present on the page?
  75. # [20:47] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-92-28-215-242.as13285.net)
  76. # [20:48] <barnabywalters> tantek: I forked your hcard generator, added some mf2 support and output of minicard and microcard: http://test.waterpigs.co.uk/h-card.html
  77. # [20:49] <barnabywalters> todo: more mf2 support, expose styling for minicard and microcard, finalise minicard/microcard markup
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  80. # [21:07] <@tantek> barnabywalters - that's awesome! looks great.
  81. # [21:07] <@tantek> looks like some of my out-of-date code made it in - for tags, we should stop referencing kitchen.technorati as it's been gone for a while :/
  82. # [21:08] <barnabywalters> tantek: yep, not entirely sure what we should do for tags
  83. # [21:08] <barnabywalters> apart from getting people to specify a base url for using…
  84. # [21:08] <@tantek> perhaps even just switch it to <span class="category">tag1</span>, <span class="category">tag2</span> etc.
  85. # [21:08] <barnabywalters> e.g. for me it would be http://waterpigs.co.uk/tags/
  86. # [21:08] <barnabywalters> yep, that's a simpler approach
  87. # [21:09] <@tantek> also - tag markup doesn't show up in the Code textarea ;)
  88. # [21:09] <@tantek> so something broke
  89. # [21:09] <@tantek> actually - the code areas are kinda broken in general
  90. # [21:09] <barnabywalters> ah ha! weird. I'll have a look at that
  91. # [21:09] <@tantek> hmm - they're not actually showing anything I type in the fields
  92. # [21:10] <@tantek> except the mini/micro versions show *only* a p-name with the given-name inside
  93. # [21:10] <barnabywalters> the main one isn't, no
  94. # [21:10] <barnabywalters> that is very strange
  95. # [21:10] <@tantek> and the microcard should have h-card as the root class name - not p-name
  96. # [21:10] <barnabywalters> I have barely changed your original code
  97. # [21:10] <@tantek> looks like you've got some more coding to do :)
  98. # [21:11] <barnabywalters> tantek: as always :)
  99. # [21:11] <@tantek> also - I wouldn't bother adding the minicard / microcard class names
  100. # [21:11] <barnabywalters> tantek: my plan was to give example css for the mini/microcards
  101. # [21:12] <@tantek> is everything inside the minicard a span?
  102. # [21:12] <@tantek> I'd just distinguish with root element
  103. # [21:12] <barnabywalters> although I suppose the microcard could actually be styled just using the fact it's inside an <a>
  104. # [21:12] <barnabywalters> ah, you got there before me :)
  105. # [21:12] <@tantek> e.g. full - <div>, mini - <p>, micro - <span>
  106. # [21:13] <@tantek> because those are likely to make sense in context for their different sizes / extents
  107. # [21:13] <barnabywalters> yep. that is cleaner
  108. # [21:13] <barnabywalters> is using <p> for mini semantically valid? it's not a paragraph of text
  109. # [21:13] <@tantek> yeah - the definition for <p> is actually quite broad in HTML5
  110. # [21:14] <@tantek> it would work for the minicard
  111. # [21:14] <barnabywalters> I think I glossed over <p> last time I read the spec
  112. # [21:14] <barnabywalters> okay, well that's a good todo list for that
  113. # [21:15] <barnabywalters> got to go and eat now
  114. # [21:15] <@tantek> but yeah - in general, go through each field, and make sure changing it actually changes the produced code :)
  115. # [21:15] <@tantek> I would keep things like middle name in all three
  116. # [21:15] <@tantek> if someone enters a middle name, I think they intend for it to be in the "full" name
  117. # [21:16] <barnabywalters> tantek: yes, that's true. I have come across people who do that
  118. # [21:16] <@tantek> consider doing only uf2 output for the minicard and microcard
  119. # [21:16] <@tantek> will keep them even more miniature
  120. # [21:16] <@tantek> the microcard makes sense to demonstrate the simple root-class-name-only case
  121. # [21:16] <@tantek> it should always just have class="h-card" at the top, and no other class names
  122. # [21:17] <barnabywalters> pretty sure I'm already doing that — haven't added uf2 to the full one either
  123. # [21:17] <barnabywalters> off to eat, bbiab
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  131. # [22:07] <aaronpk> barnabywalters: where did your microcard markup go on your site! It was looking so good the other day!
  132. # [22:12] <@tantek_> aaronpk - I see it on this page: http://test.waterpigs.co.uk/activity/
  133. # [22:13] * @tantek_ is now working on how to incorporate that markup pattern into the implied properties algorithm of #uf2
  134. # [22:18] <barnabywalters> aaronpk: yep, it's in the h1, showing off it's scaling ability
  135. # [22:19] <barnabywalters> I'm way overcommitted at the mo, but when I get round to it (and the markup is finalised) I'll be rolling it out all over my site, and in indieweb @anywhere
  136. # [22:19] <barnabywalters> which still needs a good name
  137. # [22:21] <aaronpk> ahh I was looking at the "notes" page
  138. # [22:21] <barnabywalters> not sure how best to expose it yet
  139. # [22:21] <barnabywalters> activity is quite hidden
  140. # [22:22] <aaronpk> tantek_: is this an appropriate h-card markup? I have v1 in here too: https://gist.github.com/3585643
  141. # [22:30] <barnabywalters> aaronpk: I am no expert, but tantek_'s comment above suggests that "it should always just have class="h-card" at the top, and no other class names"
  142. # [22:31] <aaronpk> where url is implied?
  143. # [22:32] <barnabywalters> aaronpk: I think the idea is to wrap it in a span, although that seems a bit bloated
  144. # [22:33] <barnabywalters> it does make sense from a styling point of view though
  145. # [22:33] <barnabywalters> e.g. if we are creating minicards and microcards based on the root element of the h-card, a microcard might not have a url associated, and so the root element can't be an <a>
  146. # [22:34] <aaronpk> true but if there is a url, then it should be ok for the root element to be an <a> with a url, right?
  147. # [22:34] <aaronpk> <a href="" class="h-card"><img src="" alt="" /> Name</a> <-- minimal example
  148. # [22:34] <barnabywalters> well, I want to be able to use and style the microcard markup universally
  149. # [22:35] <barnabywalters> ah, yep, perhaps the implied syntax works out
  150. # [22:37] <aaronpk> tantek_: How about this as the most minimal h-card? <a href="http://aaronparecki.com" class="h-card"><img src="http://aaronparecki.com/images/aaronpk.png" alt="" /> Aaron Parecki</a>
  151. # [22:40] <Loqi> [[microformats-2-implied-properties]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats-2-implied-properties&diff=47181&oldid=44838&rcid=61633 * Tantek * (+1247) /* additional markup patterns to consider */ provide finer grouping / explanation, and add root element with one child and text based on Barnaby Walters's example in the wild
  152. # [22:42] <Loqi> [[microformats-2-implied-properties]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats-2-implied-properties&diff=47182&oldid=47181&rcid=61634 * Tantek * (+4) cluster rejected with respective pattern
  153. # [22:42] <@tantek_> ok I'm back - was deep in editing context :)
  154. # [22:43] <@tantek_> barnabywalters - based on your markup pattern I came up with another implied property pattern to consider for uf2: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-implied-properties#root_element_with_one_child_and_text
  155. # [22:43] <rasifiel> Oooh... More different semantic markup(
  156. # [22:44] <@tantek_> rasifiel - yeah, from actual web publishing patterns
  157. # [22:44] <@tantek_> aaronpk, checking your gist
  158. # [22:44] <@tantek_> so you have two choices:
  159. # [22:45] <@tantek_> 1. if you want backcompat with hCard v1, you need a separate root element (e.g. span) surrounding all the elements with properties.
  160. # [22:45] <Loqi> http://loqi.me/4yV
  161. # [22:45] <@tantek_> 2. or if you're ok with only h-card support
  162. # [22:46] <aaronpk> i think i'll go with only h-card support on this one
  163. # [22:46] <@tantek_> then you can drop class names vcard url u-url u-photo photo and the <span class="p-name fn">, assuming you like the markup pattern I *just* documented for barnabywalters
  164. # [22:47] <@tantek_> this one: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-implied-properties#root_element_with_one_child_and_text
  165. # [22:47] <@tantek_> OR - did you have a specific styling reason (or otherwise) for the child <span> ?
  166. # [22:47] * Quits: chiui_ (~chiui@77.72.196.170) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  167. # [22:48] <@tantek_> (trying to understand if that's an actual use-case, or if you just put the span there as a hook for those properties)
  168. # [22:48] <barnabywalters> tantek_: what if the person represented by the microcard has no URL?
  169. # [22:48] <barnabywalters> (this is theoretical for h card generator btw)
  170. # [22:48] <aaronpk> the <span> is there to separate the "@" from the name when I use nicknames
  171. # [22:49] <aaronpk> I'll remove the <span> when I use a real name
  172. # [22:51] <Loqi> [[microformats-2-implied-properties]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats-2-implied-properties&diff=47183&oldid=47182&rcid=61635 * Tantek * (+370) /* root element with one child and text */ note gist from aaronpk as another possibility to consider
  173. # [22:51] <@tantek_> barnabywalters - if the person represented by the microcard has no URL, then the root element is a span instead of an <a>
  174. # [22:52] <barnabywalters> fab. thought as much
  175. # [22:52] <@tantek_> aaronpk - do you have a publishing example of that "separate the "@" from the name when I use nicknames" ?
  176. # [22:52] <@tantek_> I think I remember seeing it but I'd prefer to link directly to a publishing example in the wild
  177. # [22:52] <aaronpk> tantek_: yea, let me push the code up, I just made some changes
  178. # [22:52] <@tantek_> BTW re: h-entry p-name vs. entry-title, all I saw is more support and no objections, so I'm going to make that edit to h-entry in uf2.
  179. # [22:53] <@tantek_> aaronpk - do you support h-entry in your markup yet? if so, you may want to wait a sec...
  180. # [22:53] <aaronpk> it's ok, pushing is easy and I prefer to have smaller related changes in my commit history anyway
  181. # [22:55] <aaronpk> tantek_: http://aaronparecki.com/2012/230/reply/1
  182. # [22:59] <barnabywalters> okay, just pushed a few fixes to my h-card generator, including universal styling support (styling based on root elements)
  183. # [23:03] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=47184&oldid=47175&rcid=61636 * Tantek * (+291) /* h-entry */ drop p-entry-title (p-name is more reflective of actual use), switch to p-summary and e-content. "entry-" is no more.
  184. # [23:04] <@tantek_> ok, http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-entry updated per the discussion this week. h-entry markup just got simpler / shorter :)
  185. # [23:04] <barnabywalters> awesome. most of my h-entries are already updated, but I forgot about e-content (think I used p- by mistake)
  186. # [23:05] <@tantek_> barnabywalters - p-content is probably correct for simple *text* notes :)
  187. # [23:05] <barnabywalters> true, not sure I even have any of those (even notes usually contain some markup)
  188. # [23:06] <@tantek_> nah - usually text notes contain only *auto-generated* markup
  189. # [23:06] <@tantek_> so I prefer to simply syndicate out the *text* because that's what I authored.
  190. # [23:07] <@tantek_> any auto-generated markup is something my code is doing automatically on my server and something I may update (like we are right now on all our sites with the h-cards!)
  191. # [23:07] <barnabywalters> good point
  192. # [23:08] <@tantek_> aaronpk - in http://aaronparecki.com/2012/230/reply/1 I don't think you need class="u-photo photo" on h-card on brennannovak, assuming we like the implied markup pattern I documented: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-implied-properties#root_element_with_one_child_and_text
  193. # [23:09] <@tantek_> for use cases where you only have the Twitter alias (often a nickname), consider indicating that explicitly in the markup as well: <a class="h-card" href="http://twitter.com/dreev">@<span class="p-name p-nickname">dreev</span></a>
  194. # [23:10] <@tantek_> because then a smarter higher level application can reason better about it - and realize, oh, you just have a placeholder p-name because you only know their p-nickname which happens to be the same thing.
  195. # [23:15] <Loqi> [[microformats-2-implied-properties]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats-2-implied-properties&diff=47185&oldid=47183&rcid=61637 * Tantek * (+138) /* root element with one child and text */ note aaronpk's minimal example in IRC
  196. # [23:16] <Loqi> [[microformats-2-implied-properties]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats-2-implied-properties&diff=47186&oldid=47185&rcid=61638 * Tantek * (+129) /* root element with one child and text */ add aaronpk minimal markup example with real values
  197. # [23:17] * @tantek_ has caught up with the discussion above :)
  198. # [23:19] <barnabywalters> Pushed the suggested css to http://test.waterpigs.co.uk/h-card.html
  199. # [23:19] <barnabywalters> it's working quite nicely now, producing much better markup
  200. # [23:19] * @tantek_ is now updating Falcon per the h-entry spec updates.
  201. # [23:29] * @tantek_ realizes we just started bim 5 of the year.
  202. # [23:30] <barnabywalters> woo newcalendar
  203. # [23:37] * Joins: elf-pavlik (~elf-pavli@lorea/elf)
  204. # [23:40] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/FreelanceWP :: WordPress › Author hReview « WordPress Plugins http://t.co/nkcYlRZ2
  205. # [23:40] <@tantek_> banabywalters - I just checked my code and apparently I was using e-entry-content (now e-content) for my *text* notes as well.
  206. # [23:40] <@tantek_> (in Falcon)
  207. # [23:41] <@tantek_> What I don't know is if that was a deliberate design decision at the time I added that support, or if it was just an accident.
  208. # [23:41] <@tantek_> maybe this is a larger indieweb POSSE question
  209. # [23:42] <barnabywalters> or perhaps more of a 'how do we want potential h-feed parsers to use our content' question
  210. # [23:42] <@tantek_> should we POSSE out markup (including potentially auto-generated markup) for text notes, or POSSE out plain text without markup for text notes?
  211. # [23:42] <barnabywalters> tangent: http://test.waterpigs.co.uk/h-card.html updated to latest version, inc. uf2 support for full h-card
  212. # [23:42] <@tantek_> it's a combination POSSE and ActivityStreams question
  213. # [23:43] <@tantek_> I think I'd rather almost assume that feed parsers / feed readers are "dumb" and will do the wrong thing with auto-generated markup (links, embeds, people references)
  214. # [23:43] <barnabywalters> tantek_: that would be the safest route, I think
  215. # [23:43] <@tantek_> and thus err on the side of syndicating more "complete" markup for a note
  216. # [23:43] <@tantek_> so that "dumb" feed parsers/readers can do more easily/quickly without having to try to be smart
  217. # [23:44] <barnabywalters> it still allows intelligent feed parsers to do useful things with content — possibly even helping them provide more functionality
  218. # [23:44] <@tantek_> yes that's an even better opint
  219. # [23:44] <@tantek_> point
  220. # [23:44] <@tantek_> because that richer note markup can also include h-card references to people with specific indieweb URLs etc.
  221. # [23:44] <barnabywalters> I was thinking that and XFN data
  222. # [23:44] <@tantek_> and therefore even *smarter* feed parsers/readers can do more things with more richly marked up notes.
  223. # [23:45] <@tantek_> ok, so it sounds like richer marked up notes are better for both *dumb* and *smarter* feed parsers/readers
  224. # [23:45] <@tantek_> I suppose we could provide plain text versions of notes in a p-summary
  225. # [23:45] <barnabywalters> agreed
  226. # [23:45] <barnabywalters> might be a bit redundant
  227. # [23:46] <barnabywalters> I say we wait until someone actually develops an h-feed reader/parser
  228. # [23:46] <@tantek_> well I've been thinking of providing plain text / abbreviated summaries
  229. # [23:46] <barnabywalters> of notes?
  230. # [23:46] <@tantek_> e.g. right now when Falcon POSSE's out to Twitter, it sends an automatically ellipsed version of the note
  231. # [23:46] <@tantek_> and that has to be plain text
  232. # [23:47] <@tantek_> and is often shorter / abbreviated
  233. # [23:47] <barnabywalters> sure — similar to the titles (note presentational title semantic being used!) of my activities
  234. # [23:48] <@tantek_> so I'm thinking a structure like <p class="e-content"><span class="p-name p-summary">sentence 1. sentence 2 up to 120 chars.</span> rest of the note content maybe with an h-card like <a class="h-card" href="http://aaron.pk">Aaron Parecki</a>. Even more content.</p>
  235. # [23:49] <barnabywalters> does that not prevent useful markup from being present in the first 120 chars?
  236. # [23:49] <barnabywalters> prohibiting, for example, "@aaron.pk bla blah blah"
  237. # [23:49] <@tantek_> where the p-summary literally only has whole sentences up to ~120 characters, and that's both what gets syndicated to Twitter (due to their content limits), and likely works better as a working name for the post.
  238. # [23:50] <@tantek_> here's how I'd do that
  239. # [23:51] <@tantek_> <p class="e-content"><span class="p-name p-summary">sentence 1 refers to @<a class="h-card" href="http://aaron.pk"><abbr title="Aaron Parecki">aaronpk</abbr></a>. sentences 2…n up to 120 chars.</span> more text note content / markup… </p>
  240. # [23:52] <@tantek_> that usage uses the 2nd markup pattern proposed here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-implied-properties#root_element_and_one_child
  241. # [23:52] <@tantek_> <a class="h-card"><abbr title>
  242. # [23:53] <@tantek_> that pattern has the nice effect of allowing the transmission of the Twitter @-name reference in plain text, while linking to Aaron's indieweb site in both the indieweb original of the note, and in the h-entry syndicated copies.
  243. # [23:54] <barnabywalters> ah, so p- just means 'strip tags' , not 'source'
  244. # [23:54] <@tantek_> p- means "text content only"
  245. # [23:55] <@tantek_> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing
  246. # [23:55] <@tantek_> e-* for "element tree", "embedded markup", or "encapsulated markup" - all of those make sense
  247. # [23:55] <barnabywalters> yep, I see how it works now
  248. # [23:56] <@tantek_> ok Falcon is now updated with the new h-entry markup as well.
  249. # [23:56] <barnabywalters> is there a semantic difference between embedded and encapsulated mkup?
  250. # [23:56] <barnabywalters> woo! now we just need a h-feed parser
  251. # [23:57] <barnabywalters> getting late over here, I'm signing off
  252. # [23:57] <barnabywalters> good night
  253. # [23:57] <Loqi> see you in the morning!
  254. # [23:57] <barnabywalters> cheers Loqi
  255. # [23:57] <Loqi> dude
  256. # [23:57] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-92-28-215-242.as13285.net) (Quit: Back to real life!)
  257. # [23:59] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=47187&oldid=47184&rcid=61639 * Tantek * (+397) /* Examples in the wild */ added support for h-entry to tantek.com
  258. # Session Close: Sun Sep 02 00:00:00 2012

The end :)