/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-11-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Nov 18 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  9. # [01:05] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/DelvinaSafitri :: sunah rosul tuh yg ky gmn ya?aku gatau lacur-_-hahaRT @farhiatulhasana: Haha ydah sono sunah rosul dlu bru (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/hCard
  10. # [01:05] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/arinidinii :: ha'a kan? Kire seru lah. Ccd mang. RT @Lilywartii19: aok RT @NurAzhimahFitri: nyesekk,, RT @SLRyooo Apa (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/Hcard
  11. # [01:05] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/arinidinii :: ha'a kan? Kire seru lah. Ccd mang. RT @Lilywartii19: aok RT @NurAzhimahFitri: nyesekk,, RT @SLRyooo Apa (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/hcard
  12. # [01:14] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/Newwalidanzhar :: Nntn tom and jerry :) RT @Wellaoktaviani5: Lg nntn bobop :) ayang?RT Newwalidanzhar: Lg ape beb:) RT (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/hcArd
  13. # [01:16] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/Dessipratiwi :: Maaf, terimakasih, senyum. Haha RT @LitaniarQI: Ucapan maaf dan terima kasih sangat berpengaruh besar (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/HCArd
  14. # [01:16] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/tanetans :: Hahaha yadah yadah, telpon dong za *eh RT @HS_rzhpratiwi: Emang bukan tan, kan cuma akal2an gue doang biar (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/HcArd
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  31. # [02:45] <simeons> I have a question I'd appreciate some guidance on: if the goal of a microformat is to attach a flag to a DOM element, would the mere presence of the microformat be sufficient? In other words, the only reason for the microformat to exist would be to attach a boolean piece of meta-data whose value is always true.
  32. # [02:47] <@tantek> simeons, microformats class names add semantics to elements, just as tag names do e.g. "p", "h1", "blockquote"
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  35. # [02:49] <@tantek> none of those are typically interpreted as "flags" or "boolean", we don't say that "p" or "h1" are boolean flags on a DOM element for example
  36. # [02:49] <@tantek> where did you get the phrasing about "goal … attach a flag to a DOM element" ?
  37. # [02:50] <@tantek> and "… attach a boolean piece of meta-data whose value is always true …" ? I've never heard semantic expressions stated that way before. Is that from a particular URL?
  38. # [02:50] <simeons> hey, tantek! I haven't run into you at a conference in over a decade.
  39. # [02:51] <simeons> the verbiage comes from the problem I have to solve
  40. # [02:51] <@tantek> URL?
  41. # [02:51] <simeons> one possible solution involves creating a new microformat. this is de novo work so no URL
  42. # [02:51] <simeons> Here is the problem definiiton:
  43. # [02:51] <@tantek> rarely is the solution a new microformat. what's the problem you're trying to solve?
  44. # [02:52] <@tantek> (more often the solution is better explanation/documentation of how to use existing microformats to solve the new problem)
  45. # [02:52] <simeons> Attach meta-data to potentially any piece of content in a Web page to identify that the content should not be "shared".
  46. # [02:53] <simeons> "shared" here is a fuzzy term, typically related to certain programmatic functionality of social network plugins
  47. # [02:53] <simeons> specific use case:
  48. # [02:53] <@tantek> could you rephrase that in terms of what a user would do?
  49. # [02:53] <simeons> 1. A blogger wants to enable her users to share more content on Pinterest.
  50. # [02:54] <@tantek> I believe permalinks solve that problem currently :)
  51. # [02:54] <simeons> 2. Blogger installs Wordpress plugin that enables "auto-sharing" of any image, meaning, it drops a "Pin It" button on any image.
  52. # [02:55] <simeons> 3. Blogger doesn't want to share some images
  53. # [02:55] <simeons> Q: how does the blogger signal to the plugin (or one of several existing plugins) which images should not be shared (the less frequent exception case)
  54. # [02:55] <simeons> How would a permalink solve this?
  55. # [02:56] <@tantek> permalink solves 1 in general
  56. # [02:56] <@tantek> for 2-3, it's more reliable to signal the positive ("wants to share") rather than the negative
  57. # [02:56] <simeons> Yup, but that would be terrible for the blogger and will never be adopted
  58. # [02:57] <simeons> Have to focus on the users and the users want to mark up the exceptions
  59. # [02:57] <@tantek> the converse would be worse for the blogger, if they forgot to mark some content as don't share and then it was shared.
  60. # [02:57] <simeons> that's what they want
  61. # [02:57] <simeons> it makes sense
  62. # [02:57] <@tantek> I haven't encountered users that want to remember to mark things as things NOT to do
  63. # [02:57] <@tantek> they typically instead share with a restricted set
  64. # [02:57] <@tantek> e.g. to friends or family
  65. # [02:57] <simeons> it also makes sense in the case of third-party services integrating into blogs
  66. # [02:58] <@tantek> UIs don't say "don't share with random people"
  67. # [02:58] <@tantek> check any social network
  68. # [02:58] <simeons> they wouldn't want their "control" images, e.g., buttons, to be shared
  69. # [02:58] <@tantek> they all do sharing prefs based on *positive* statements
  70. # [02:58] <@tantek> so no, I dispute that marking up negative exceptions is what's right for users
  71. # [02:58] <simeons> Tantek, I'm seeing this problem right now with a dozen+ bloggers
  72. # [02:58] <@tantek> as demonstrated by existing interfaces (which all provide only *positive* exceptions, not negative
  73. # [02:58] <@tantek> Flickr, Facebook, G+ etc.
  74. # [02:59] <simeons> You are thinking of a different interface
  75. # [02:59] <simeons> There are two "input" mechanisms here:
  76. # [02:59] <simeons> 1. manual content entry, typically in Wordpress (85+% market share)
  77. # [03:00] <simeons> 2. completely automated, third party, machine-generated content, e.g., my company (Swoop) injecting images into blog content based on what bloggers ask us to do
  78. # [03:01] <simeons> In both cases, meaning both a human and a system, need a way to tell an "auto-sharing" plugin not to share certain images
  79. # [03:01] <simeons> Marking up which images to share will never work with UGC
  80. # [03:02] <@tantek> I think that's going to be an endless dyke plugging task
  81. # [03:02] <@tantek> new images will show up from other sources
  82. # [03:02] <simeons> the whole reason for the existence of the auto-sharing plugins is that bloggers don't want to markup by hand
  83. # [03:02] <@tantek> etc.
  84. # [03:02] <@tantek> it's not maintainable/sustainable
  85. # [03:02] <simeons> I disagree
  86. # [03:02] <simeons> The second source--machine-generated content--is perfectly sustainable
  87. # [03:02] <@tantek> sounds like the plugins need to be improved, rather than the bloggers doing the markup
  88. # [03:03] <simeons> The first source--human-generated--is also sustainable since the images that should not be shared are the exceptions
  89. # [03:03] <simeons> I agree
  90. # [03:03] <@tantek> it's not maintainable/sustainable because bloggers (WordPress) install plugins that post or embed other things to their blog, other images, etc.
  91. # [03:03] <@tantek> over time
  92. # [03:03] <simeons> The plugin implementations are far less than perfect
  93. # [03:03] <simeons> However, that's not the reality
  94. # [03:03] <@tantek> and having to "fix" every one of those is unsustainable
  95. # [03:03] <@tantek> marking up such negatives is just a future whack-a-mole tax that you'd be imposing on bloggers
  96. # [03:04] <simeons> The reality is that there is demand for auto-sharing and there are several plugins that provide this and they have fast growing downloads
  97. # [03:04] <@tantek> to always have to remember to do so
  98. # [03:04] <@tantek> I've actually been seeing a bit more of a backlash against all the auto-sharing hype
  99. # [03:04] <@tantek> I agree there was great momentum for it
  100. # [03:04] <simeons> The net result is broken pages and bloggers having to choose between installing the plugins they want to use vs. not
  101. # [03:04] <@tantek> and for a while lots of sites where NASCAR-buggering up their UIs with every share button available
  102. # [03:04] <@tantek> but there's been a huge backlash due to performance problems
  103. # [03:04] <@tantek> UI clutter
  104. # [03:04] <@tantek> privacy
  105. # [03:04] <@tantek> etc.
  106. # [03:04] <simeons> I'm with you
  107. # [03:05] <@tantek> I was working on this whole problem space for a while - Web Actions
  108. # [03:05] <@tantek> in fact, still am, but more of a backburner kind of thing
  109. # [03:05] <simeons> In the meantime, though, if there is a super-simple standard for identifying what not to share, it is possible to get the plugin authors to respect it
  110. # [03:05] <@tantek> in fact I was fairly optimistic about it: http://tantek.com/2011/220/b1/web-actions-a-new-building-block
  111. # [03:05] <simeons> the key is that is has to be *insanely* simple
  112. # [03:05] <simeons> like a single class name
  113. # [03:06] <simeons> h-no-share
  114. # [03:06] <simeons> for example
  115. # [03:06] <@tantek> yeah - we've not had much (any?) success with such "not to XYZ" type formats/standards etc.
  116. # [03:06] <@tantek> the biggest unintended failure has of course been rel="no-follow"
  117. # [03:06] <@tantek> now it's abused
  118. # [03:06] <@tantek> on first party content
  119. # [03:06] <simeons> Well, I'm not sure there was ever a real problem they were solving before
  120. # [03:06] <@tantek> to try to do link-shaping
  121. # [03:06] <@tantek> blog comment spam supposedly
  122. # [03:06] <simeons> yup
  123. # [03:06] <simeons> can't stop the spammers
  124. # [03:06] <@tantek> untrusted 3rd party content
  125. # [03:06] <simeons> very tough problem
  126. # [03:07] <@tantek> but now most of the social content silos put rel="no-follow" on *first* party links
  127. # [03:07] <simeons> so, with something like h-no-share, my company alone can put it on thousands of sites
  128. # [03:07] <@tantek> e.g. everything you link to on Twitter, Facebook etc. is all no-followed
  129. # [03:07] <@tantek> even though you're not a 3rd party on your own profile
  130. # [03:07] <simeons> and the bloggers and blog networks we use can spread to about 30,000 bloggers
  131. # [03:08] <simeons> Yup, no-follow is a mess
  132. # [03:08] <@tantek> the worst is that "no-follow" is totally misnamed
  133. # [03:08] <@tantek> as frankly, would be "no-share"
  134. # [03:08] <simeons> Publishers protecting themselves in a way
  135. # [03:08] <simeons> Yup, I agree
  136. # [03:08] <@tantek> because *other* things would share it
  137. # [03:08] <@tantek> I think this is a problem in general with such negative functionality framing
  138. # [03:08] <simeons> Never let reason stand in the way of how people use a standard :)
  139. # [03:08] <@tantek> you end up promising something you can't deliver
  140. # [03:09] <@tantek> and it gets twisted into whatever people want it to mean
  141. # [03:09] <@tantek> and then loses all meaning
  142. # [03:09] <simeons> we could restrict this "no-share" thing to images
  143. # [03:09] <simeons> to give it stronger semantics
  144. # [03:09] <simeons> and less chance of being used in strange ways
  145. # [03:09] <@tantek> doesn't matter - e.g. browser plugins will ignore it
  146. # [03:09] <@tantek> it will still get *shared*
  147. # [03:09] <@tantek> because it's on the public web
  148. # [03:10] <simeons> oh, wait
  149. # [03:10] <@tantek> what you're really looking for is something like "do-not-show-a-share-widget"
  150. # [03:10] <simeons> I think I did not explain the plugin behavior
  151. # [03:10] <@tantek> that's actually a presentational/UI thing
  152. # [03:10] <simeons> yes
  153. # [03:10] <simeons> you are correct
  154. # [03:10] <@tantek> and that's VERY different from the implied meaning of "no-share"
  155. # [03:10] <simeons> what these plugins do is they float a Pin It button in the image
  156. # [03:10] <simeons> good point
  157. # [03:11] <@tantek> is this for *any* widget or the specific widget that your company makes?
  158. # [03:11] <simeons> and this button can show even in control images, e.g., action buttons, or images a designer is using to show text
  159. # [03:11] <@tantek> e.g. are you going to get the "AddThis" and "ShareThis" makers to respect your additional markup?
  160. # [03:12] <simeons> We and lots of others that put content in blogs are affected because the plugins try to put Pin It buttons everywhere -- they don't know what's content that makes sense to share and what's not
  161. # [03:12] <simeons> For example,
  162. # [03:13] <simeons> they even try to put Pin It buttons in images that are smaller than the button itself
  163. # [03:13] <simeons> I know,
  164. # [03:13] <simeons> that's crappy implementation but bloggers are so hungry for pins
  165. # [03:13] <simeons> they install the plugins anyway
  166. # [03:13] <simeons> AddThis/ShareThis is not a problem
  167. # [03:14] <simeons> They don't float UI over arbitrary DOM elements w/o being asked first
  168. # [03:14] <@tantek> a-ha - "the plugins try to put Pin It buttons everywhere -- they don't know what's content that makes sense to share and what's not" - I think ARIA might already have a solution for this!
  169. # [03:14] <simeons> The ShareThis guys are behind this
  170. # [03:14] <@tantek> images that are "content" vs. decorative or UI
  171. # [03:14] <simeons> I talked to the founder yesterday
  172. # [03:14] <@tantek> not only do we not need a new microformat for this, we don't need a microformat at all
  173. # [03:14] <simeons> great
  174. # [03:14] <simeons> how would you single this?
  175. # [03:14] <simeons> signal
  176. # [03:14] <@tantek> the key is again, NOT doing a negative framing
  177. # [03:14] <@tantek> but rather
  178. # [03:15] <@tantek> identifying what is the common positive framing of these things you don't want "pins" next to
  179. # [03:15] <@tantek> and I think the key aspect is that they are presentational rather than content
  180. # [03:15] <@tantek> or at least *a* key aspect
  181. # [03:15] <@tantek> looking up ARIA roles now...
  182. # [03:15] <simeons> I like that shift in semantics
  183. # [03:16] <simeons> not sure what to call it though
  184. # [03:17] <@tantek> ok so what you need to add to such presentational images, e.g. "images that are smaller than the button itself", is role="presentation" - per: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#presentation
  185. # [03:18] <@tantek> here is another blog post that discusses more about role="presentation" : http://john.foliot.ca/aria-hidden/
  186. # [03:19] <simeons> reading...
  187. # [03:20] * Joins: shaners (~shaners@cpe-76-174-8-229.socal.res.rr.com)
  188. # [03:20] <@tantek> and here is a broader explanation of "role" btw: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/aria-and-progressive-enhancement/
  189. # [03:21] <simeons> gmm
  190. # [03:21] <simeons> hmm
  191. # [03:21] <@tantek> the nice thing is, that by re-using the existing semantic ARIA role attribute for this functionality, and doing so consistent with its semantics, you'll be at least incrementally improving the accessibility of such sites too
  192. # [03:22] <simeons> not really
  193. # [03:22] <simeons> here is a use case that cannot (from my reading) be served by this
  194. # [03:22] <simeons> let me find a link for yo
  195. # [03:22] <shaners> tantek: in-reply-to http://ttk.me/t4Lg2 : I get the as- prefix for #ActivityStreams, but why the h- prefix too?
  196. # [03:23] <simeons> http://fuelrr.com/recipes/c4f80fe9cf302a9df3000014
  197. # [03:23] <@tantek> shaners - because root microformats classes start with "h-"
  198. # [03:23] <simeons> If you are not running adblock, you should see Swoop UI (button and perhaps icons)
  199. # [03:23] <@tantek> and we're essentially saying that an h-as-note is a more specific kind h-entry
  200. # [03:24] <simeons> These are all actionable and hold interesting content behind
  201. # [03:24] <@tantek> shaners - see: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2
  202. # [03:24] <simeons> role=presentation would instruct the user agent to hide them, preventing access to valuable free content (savings, etc.)
  203. # [03:24] <shaners> tantek: i'll wait till you and simeons are done with this thread. then we can hash this out. i don't to intermingle these two conversations
  204. # [03:24] <@tantek> simeons it wouldn't hide them
  205. # [03:25] <@tantek> shaners - there's not much more to your question than what I said above.
  206. # [03:25] <simeons> from the blog post you suggested: "For any element with a role of presentation and which is not focusable, the user agent MUST NOT expose the implicit native semantics of the element (the role and its states and properties) to accessibility APIs. However, the user agent MUST expose content and descendant elements that do not have an explicit or inherited role of presentation."
  207. # [03:25] <shaners> tantek: i have more to say. i'll wait though.
  208. # [03:26] <@tantek> simeons - the cryptic spec text you quote is difficult to interpret, and by attempting to literally interpret it you will likely come to the wrong conclusions.
  209. # [03:26] <simeons> good!
  210. # [03:26] <@tantek> e.g. "user agent MUST NOT expose the implicit native semantics" - seriously WTF
  211. # [03:26] <simeons> 'cos I'd love to be able to use something as simple as role="presentation"
  212. # [03:26] <simeons> yeah, i know
  213. # [03:26] <@tantek> nearly every word there is loaded with particulars dependent on the context
  214. # [03:27] <simeons> I hope none of the standards I was involved with at W3C, OASIS and JCP did this but, you know what, I can hardly be confident :)
  215. # [03:27] <@tantek> so as long as the images you're marking up *are* presentational (rather than content posted by the user), then yes, role="presentation" is correct
  216. # [03:27] <@tantek> no - nearly all standards do this
  217. # [03:27] <@tantek> it's a problem
  218. # [03:27] <@tantek> calling things "user agents" instead of browsers
  219. # [03:27] <@tantek> renaming URL to URI to IRI instead of just sticking with "URL" as the term
  220. # [03:27] <simeons> yup
  221. # [03:28] <simeons> fake attempts at generality
  222. # [03:28] <@tantek> nearly all standards specs obfuscate their meaning to a ridiculously high level of abstraction to the point where only a handful of people on the planet can read/understand them
  223. # [03:28] <simeons> like pompous academic talk
  224. # [03:28] <@tantek> right
  225. # [03:28] <@tantek> a bunch of us are *trying* to fix this, slowly, incrementally, painfully
  226. # [03:28] <simeons> yeah, I pulled out of standards work after becoming disillusioned
  227. # [03:29] <simeons> easy though: I was helping create the Web Services standards mess
  228. # [03:29] <simeons> mea culpa
  229. # [03:29] <@tantek> some of us just started (and joined) other standards work instead ;)
  230. # [03:29] <@tantek> heh
  231. # [03:29] <@tantek> the infamous WS-* (expanded as WS-deathstar) stack!
  232. # [03:29] <simeons> OK, thanks for your help on this and for pushing back
  233. # [03:29] <@tantek> simeons I took a look at the recipe URL you posted
  234. # [03:30] <simeons> do you think role=presentation makes sense for the icons & button?
  235. # [03:30] <simeons> (if you saw any icons)
  236. # [03:31] <@tantek> so I saw a few orange little link/$ icons
  237. # [03:31] <@tantek> and big green Thanksgiving backing questions button
  238. # [03:31] <@tantek> is that what you mean?
  239. # [03:31] <simeons> yup
  240. # [03:31] <simeons> an auto-sharing plugin would try to put "Pin It" buttons inside those images
  241. # [03:32] <simeons> creating a total mess on the page
  242. # [03:32] <@tantek> yeah
  243. # [03:32] <@tantek> so the icons are certainly presentational
  244. # [03:32] <@tantek> the button is more "UI" than presentational but I think there's something for that too
  245. # [03:32] <simeons> while it would make total sense to put a Pin It button on a big picutre of the recipe
  246. # [03:32] * Joins: jfranusic (~jfranusic@50-200-5-117-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  247. # [03:33] <simeons> In this particular case, we make the button HTML
  248. # [03:33] <simeons> the only image is the Swoop logo (little infinity symbol on the left)
  249. # [03:33] <@tantek> I viewed the source
  250. # [03:33] <@tantek> oh dear
  251. # [03:33] <simeons> that is clearly presentational
  252. # [03:33] <@tantek> I'm guessing that "button" doesn't work at all without JS
  253. # [03:33] <@tantek> ahem
  254. # [03:33] <simeons> yup
  255. # [03:33] <simeons> Swoop doesn't work w/o JS
  256. # [03:33] <simeons> by design
  257. # [03:34] <simeons> nor does much of sharing, interactive adtech, etc.
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  259. # [03:34] <simeons> We have a technology called slinks (Swoop links) that can at least make some of the JS-rendered content URL addressable
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  261. # [03:35] <@tantek> Twitter share buttons work without JS
  262. # [03:35] <@tantek> as does anybody else's that follow Twitter's example
  263. # [03:35] <simeons> All social networks are moving away from that
  264. # [03:35] <@tantek> the others are just poorly coded
  265. # [03:35] <@tantek> G+, FB etc.
  266. # [03:35] <simeons> I agree
  267. # [03:35] <simeons> but it's where the world is going
  268. # [03:35] <@tantek> and you can tell they're poorly coded by the huge amounts of memory and markup they use
  269. # [03:35] <simeons> having talked so some of the devs there, it's not going to change anytime soon
  270. # [03:36] <@tantek> nah - the world tends to prefer efficiency
  271. # [03:36] <@tantek> not inefficiency
  272. # [03:36] <@tantek> people are dumping G+ and FB buttons because of perf
  273. # [03:36] <@tantek> just search for it
  274. # [03:36] <@tantek> tons of perf problems documented
  275. # [03:36] <@tantek> part that whole backlash thing
  276. # [03:36] <simeons> yup, well known
  277. # [03:36] <simeons> we ask to be loaded last 'cos I don't want to slow the site down
  278. # [03:37] <simeons> 10+% of cases we never get to load
  279. # [03:37] <simeons> because someone higher up can't complete execution
  280. # [03:37] <simeons> JS on the Web is truly a mess
  281. # [03:37] <@tantek> and widgets are for the most part to blame
  282. # [03:38] <@tantek> and yes, there *is* a role="button"
  283. # [03:38] <simeons> yup
  284. # [03:38] <@tantek> so you can use that
  285. # [03:38] <simeons> so, presentation and button
  286. # [03:38] <simeons> works well
  287. # [03:39] <@tantek> so start with those two
  288. # [03:39] <@tantek> since those are the two you have use-cases for
  289. # [03:39] <@tantek> we'll worry about other roles if those don't fit
  290. # [03:40] <@tantek> and when I say worry about - I mean research the cryptic W3C specs for
  291. # [03:40] <@tantek> e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/
  292. # [03:40] <simeons> :)
  293. # [03:40] <simeons> yes, that's the type of bedtime reading that will put me right to sleep
  294. # [03:41] <@tantek> and http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-wai-aria-20100916/roles.html
  295. # [03:41] <simeons> I'll have to do this in the morning
  296. # [03:41] <@tantek> happy to help decrypt the text of those
  297. # [03:41] <simeons> careful: I may take you up on this
  298. # [03:41] <@tantek> but for now, I think role="presentation" and role="button" should work for your purposes to start with.
  299. # [03:41] <@tantek> it's ok, it's likely useful that I have deeper understanding of the cryptic role stuff
  300. # [03:42] <@tantek> I'm also relieved to not have to invent anything new to make such things work
  301. # [03:42] <@tantek> and *hopefully* have some accessibility improving side-effects as well
  302. # [03:42] <simeons> yes, I like both of these, too
  303. # [03:43] <simeons> last thing I wanted to do was create a new thing, even if it was as simple as a single CSS class name
  304. # [03:43] <simeons> thanks!
  305. # [03:43] <@tantek> no problem - it's been an interesting exploration.
  306. # [03:43] <simeons> have a great weekend
  307. # [03:43] <@tantek> it's amazing how if you stay in this field long enough, the same problems start to come up (sometimes years later, but still)
  308. # [03:43] <@tantek> you too
  309. # [03:44] <simeons> +1 to that
  310. # [03:44] <@tantek> we can't always use previous solutions, but it's better when we're able to.
  311. # [03:44] <@tantek> simeons - on a related note, I'd be interested in your opinions on Web Actions in general per: http://tantek.com/2011/220/b1/web-actions-a-new-building-block
  312. # [03:45] <@tantek> and also http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions
  313. # [03:45] <@tantek> in particular http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Drop_Social_Buttons
  314. # [03:45] <@tantek> and the following parts
  315. # [03:45] <@tantek> also - you may be interested in /join #indiewebcamp for such discussions
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  318. # [03:55] <shaners> tantek: here's my concern / confusion of h-as-TYPE:
  319. # [03:55] <shaners> it's an extra layer of namespace prefixing. no other microformat does that. (right?)
  320. # [03:56] <@tantek> nothing is namespace prefixing in microformats
  321. # [03:56] <shaners> uf2 is, at least partially, about flattening
  322. # [03:56] <@tantek> if you're interpreting the microformats2 prefixes as namespace prefixes, you've already gotten it wrong.
  323. # [03:56] <@tantek> all the prefixing is about parsing rules
  324. # [03:57] <shaners> tantek: ok. fine. not namespaces. but you know what i mean.
  325. # [03:57] <@tantek> not this abstract "namespacing" concept which causes far more problems than anything it solves in terms of data, data formats etc.
  326. # [03:57] <shaners> fine. forget i ever said namespace. just sub prefix for namespace.
  327. # [03:57] <shaners> my bad.
  328. # [03:58] <shaners> my concern is still the same: double prefixes
  329. # [03:58] <@tantek> h- means this is a root microformat
  330. # [03:58] <@tantek> so that's why that's there
  331. # [03:58] <shaners> why not: .h-entry .as-note
  332. # [03:58] <shaners> but they're not a root mf
  333. # [03:58] <shaners> they're a... subclass of h-entry. right?
  334. # [03:59] <shaners> (subclass in the abstract sense, not the html class sense)
  335. # [03:59] <@tantek> there's no class hierarchy in microformats, that's maybe where you're getting confused
  336. # [03:59] <shaners> that's not totally true either
  337. # [04:00] <shaners> ok. let me step back for a second and try a different approach.
  338. # [04:01] <shaners> excluding these h-as- microformats, are there any mfs that are a more specific version of a different microformat?
  339. # [04:02] <@tantek> hNews is a more specific version of hAtom
  340. # [04:03] <shaners> any others?
  341. # [04:04] <@tantek> I think there was some interaction between hListing, hProduct, hReview that I need to re-assess
  342. # [04:04] <shaners> ok. that's fine.
  343. # [04:05] <shaners> would you say that the "as-" part of "h-as-note" is a namespace?
  344. # [04:05] <@tantek> since the ActivityStreams terms (e.g. names for object types) are defined by another organization, they most closely map to vendor extensions
  345. # [04:05] <shaners> since it's pretty explicitly referring to Activity Streams
  346. # [04:05] <@tantek> right
  347. # [04:05] <@tantek> so no it's not a namespace
  348. # [04:05] <@tantek> it's just a vendor prefix
  349. # [04:06] <@tantek> "namespace" carries all kinds of baggage which I don't think you mean
  350. # [04:06] <@tantek> when you use it
  351. # [04:06] <@tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#VENDOR_EXTENSIONS
  352. # [04:06] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=48886&oldid=48873&rcid=65006 * Tantek * (+1) /* VENDOR EXTENSIONS */ -
  353. # [04:07] <@tantek> shaners, whenever you're tempted to use the term "namespaces" in reference to data, content, formats, please read this first to see exactly what you're implying about something you're labeling a "namespace" : http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces
  354. # [04:08] <shaners> in the atom representation of Activity Streams, they use Atom proper namespaces, don't they?
  355. # [04:08] <shaners> <as:object>
  356. # [04:08] <@tantek> in short, prefixes are *sometimes* ok/good/useful, whereas namespaces are always horrible in content
  357. # [04:08] <shaners> etc
  358. # [04:08] <@tantek> and such XML namespaces have already been shown to be a failure on the web
  359. # [04:08] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful#namespaced_content_has_failed
  360. # [04:08] <@tantek> etc.
  361. # [04:08] <@tantek> in RSS
  362. # [04:08] <@tantek> etc.
  363. # [04:09] <@tantek> there's a handful of namespace academics that cling to them still, but for the most part they are either ignored or derided
  364. # [04:09] <@tantek> notice how the XML namespaced Atom spec itself was abandoned by the ActivityStreams folks for a JSON representation - without any namespaces.
  365. # [04:10] <shaners> oh, i'm certainly not advocating for using xml like namespaces in html or anywhere
  366. # [04:10] <shaners> the vendor prefix angle makes more sense in my brain now
  367. # [04:10] <@tantek> cool
  368. # [04:10] <shaners> i didn't realize there were already docs on this for uf2
  369. # [04:11] <shaners> i've been convinced. :D
  370. # [04:12] <shaners> relatedly: Activity Streams pieces (basically parts of speech in a sentence): actor, verb, object, target.
  371. # [04:13] <shaners> how would you class them in html?
  372. # [04:13] <shaners> p-as-actor
  373. # [04:13] <shaners> ?
  374. # [04:13] <@tantek> ActivityStreams is problematic in that regard
  375. # [04:14] <@tantek> so no, it doesn't make sense to just map the entire ActivityStreams model 1:1 to microformats
  376. # [04:14] <@tantek> but that's more of an #indiewebcamp discussion (the problem(s) with ActivityStreams)
  377. # [04:14] <shaners> well, yes and no
  378. # [04:16] <shaners> If AS in Atom land is an extension to Atom. And as- is a vendor specific prefix. And h-as-note is essentially a "vendor specific" more specific kind of .h-entry.
  379. # [04:16] <@tantek> no, actually, just yes
  380. # [04:16] <@tantek> left a message for you in #indiewebcamp about AS problems
  381. # [04:16] <shaners> Then, doesn't it follow that it's a mf vendor specific property
  382. # [04:17] <@tantek> AS is no longer an extension to Atom
  383. # [04:17] <@tantek> the JSON AS model abandons Atom and is independent of it
  384. # [04:17] <@tantek> so the entire "if …" statement you provide falls over on the first clause
  385. # [04:17] <@tantek> Atom is now a legacy export for backward compat
  386. # [04:17] <@tantek> *just*
  387. # [04:18] <shaners> ok. read the if clause without the atom bit.
  388. # [04:18] <shaners> as- is still a mf vendor prefix.
  389. # [04:18] <@tantek> anyway, check out #indiewebcamp and the reading there. will follow-up there later.
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  391. # [04:22] <shaners> ok. i'll punt on this part for now.
  392. # [04:22] <shaners> thanks for playing along.
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  407. # [06:33] <simeons> tantek thanks for the help earlier tonight. Here is a draft: https://github.com/swoop-inc/auto-sharing
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  417. # [09:46] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/SelowVien :: OGAH CHELSEA !!! Hati gua terutama LIVERPOOL RT @deandegrave: woi vin ava baru tpi kenapa msti pake jersey (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/HCaRd
  418. # [09:46] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/hafidz_hurairah :: Iyee, apasi yg ga buat nene :p RT @iqlimaXD: Haha gratis yee RT hafidz_hurairah: Robot robotan apa ne? Sni (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/hCaRd
  419. # [09:46] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/tutitiw :: hehe grgr hp rusak jadi ilang smua nmrnyaRT @YuskiOx: Pantes ajah dodol gua sms ƍαќ di bales bales , dasar (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/hcaRd
  420. # [09:46] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/bella18_moela :: sotakkkk (ˇ▼ˇ)-c&lt;ˇ_ˇ) RT @3ddy5etiawan: tu kmu siapa lgi.hehe RT bella18_moela: Sapa yg galau? RT (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/HcaRd
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  422. # [09:56] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/nzagoto17 :: Agenda u/bsk:
  423. # [09:56] <Loqi> UH Fisika, UH agama, Karya Tulis Ilmiah Bab.1
  424. # [09:56] <Loqi> Dan jgn lupa bawa...
  425. # [09:56] <Loqi> Fotocopy: SKHUN, (cont) http://www.snaptwit.com/show/hcARd
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  435. # [13:44] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/glennjones :: @BarnabyWalters Thanks, glad you like identengine http://identengine.com - now time to look at microformats2 !
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  437. # [16:14] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/FreeWSOdownload :: Free download: WSO - WP Author hReview (Plugin) http://www.freewso.info/wp-author-hreview-plugin/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
  438. # [16:15] <Loqi> [[Read in detail in more detail Idol Lash Reviews]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Read_in_detail_in_more_detail_Idol_Lash_Reviews&rcid=65007 * Mugrumer93 * (+2962) Just about all roads guide to Idol lash, the eyeslash enhancer. Let’s have an understanding for its buzz. Idol lash delivers what it guarantees.
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  447. # [18:00] <Loqi> [[Gamefly Gadgets On The Video Game4208127]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gamefly_Gadgets_On_The_Video_Game4208127&rcid=65008 * CarsondrlwcuomdhCribari * (+3900) New page: Gamefly Gear On The Xbox 360 [http://eon.businesswire.com/news/eon/20121115006504/en/gamefly-free-trial Gamefly] Whether you play retro consoles or next-gen, there are lots of ways to sp...
  448. # [18:07] <Loqi> [[webcam babes chat]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=webcam_babes_chat&rcid=65009 * KeishaykmrhodxqrSpengler * (+5134) New page: World wide web has produced mass possibilities. It's much less your distance through getting want you to obtain online every time plus anywhere. It's got opened up gate to get [http://6...
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  469. # [21:23] <Loqi> [[Oui ce anciennement chauve à la gueule de mafieux luv est le mec le plus stylé de lunivers rienqueca places to visit in virginia ultimatebias haha]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Oui_ce_anciennement_chauve_%C3%A0_la_gueule_de_mafieux_luv_est_le_mec_le_plus_styl%C3%A9_de_lunivers_rienqueca_places_to_visit_in_virginia_ultimatebias_haha&rcid=65010 * MartJuarez7 * (+1816)
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  472. # [21:37] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Mugrumer93]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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  475. # [21:38] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Read in detail in more detail Idol Lash Reviews]]": content was spam
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  478. # [21:38] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:MartJuarez7]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  479. # [21:38] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Oui ce anciennement chauve à la gueule de mafieux luv est le mec le plus stylé de lunivers rienqueca places to visit in virginia ultimatebias haha]]": content was spam
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  485. # Session Close: Mon Nov 19 00:00:00 2012

The end :)