/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-12-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 01 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  7. # [00:22] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-rdf]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-rdf&diff=49078&oldid=48923&rcid=65452 * Tantek * (+0) /* Representative hCard parsing */ fix source tag
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  21. # [04:41] <Loqi> [[Long-term Depression Can Be Successfully Cared for With Professional Therapy]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Long-term_Depression_Can_Be_Successfully_Cared_for_With_Professional_Therapy&rcid=65453 * Hestan20 * (+3489) View a viewpoint on depression and the significance of therapy.
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  24. # [04:45] <Loqi> [[No-Fuss electronic cigs Plans - Uncovered Insights]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=No-Fuss_electronic_cigs_Plans_-_Uncovered_Insights&rcid=65456 * Lzysett31 * (+3144) The PowerMatic 2 Electric Cigarette Machine Might Be A Terrific Option For People Who Smoke And Want To Save Cash
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  31. # [09:28] <Loqi> [[No Credit Check Loans Online Revealed: Things to Know]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=No_Credit_Check_Loans_Online_Revealed:_Things_to_Know&rcid=65459 * Zaleilich22 * (+3463) A advance loan payday loan may be applied for on-line, plus many instances it is possible to have the funds placed inside your account on the very same day you have applied. The loan-seekers can ava
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  33. # [09:51] <Loqi> [[iPhone Jailbreaking and Unlocking310077]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=iPhone_Jailbreaking_and_Unlocking310077&rcid=65460 * LeolanameeuytstCollison * (+2497) New page: The running system of Apple iPhone [http://www.iphone5phone.com/ www.iphone5phone.com] Unlock iPhone makes use of 2 interactive partitions to be precise the press partition and the partiti...
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  50. # [11:41] <@tantek> greetings gjones
  51. # [11:42] <@tantek> I'm not sure I understand this thread: https://github.com/microformats/tests/issues/1
  52. # [11:43] <@tantek> the intent of microformats2 parsing as to always produce strings for each property
  53. # [11:45] <gjones> Thats what I thought, a lot of the v1 parsers validated properties based on a pre knowledge of data type. That's no longer the case as v2 are generic parsers
  54. # [11:46] <@tantek> right
  55. # [11:47] <@tantek> also - there's not a precise mapping to language-specific data types anyway
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  57. # [11:48] <@tantek> e.g. time element, microformats2 allow for more coarse time values, e.g. year, month, month and day (but no year)
  58. # [11:48] <@tantek> which are representable using ISO8601 strings, but not in native datetime structures
  59. # [11:49] <@tantek> e.g. I don't think it is possible to represent those with PHP DateTime objects for example
  60. # [11:51] <@tantek> so if we have a test like: <span class="h-card"><span class="p-name">Alice Brown</span>, birthday: <time class="dt-bday" datetime="--12-31">31 December</time></span>, then all we can test for are matching canonical ISO8601 strings - not any kind of PHP or JS datetime object.
  61. # [11:51] <gjones> Data and structure validation may still be interesting to help users test their mark-up (ufLint), but its no longer core to the parsers.
  62. # [11:51] <@tantek> yes - exactly
  63. # [11:51] <@tantek> useful for validators / validation services
  64. # [11:52] <@tantek> which can be built on top of parsers
  65. # [11:52] <@tantek> validators can test all kinds of other things too
  66. # [11:52] <@tantek> vocabulary specific things
  67. # [11:52] <@tantek> e.g. making sure that any dt-end is *after* a dt-start
  68. # [11:52] <@tantek> etc.
  69. # [11:54] <gjones> So in a PHP or C# parser we may have two representations native in strongly types structures and JSON which is just string and is common across all parsers and which we build the test on
  70. # [11:55] <@tantek> there's no native strongly typed representation of "--12-31" in PHP or C#
  71. # [11:56] <@tantek> that's what I'm trying to explain - what microformats (and HTML5) considers date and time is a *superset* of what strongly typed native language structures do.
  72. # [11:56] <@tantek> and thus exceed what native strongly typed representations can do
  73. # [11:56] <@tantek> thus you can't depend on native strongly typed representations
  74. # [11:59] <gjones> If I rebuilt ufxtract .net developers would want native object structures for data, if they interfaced with it directly. I built ISODate class Geo Class etc so they had less work to do.
  75. # [12:01] <@tantek> ah ok - *new* native classes then, not built-in.
  76. # [12:02] <gjones> Take a look at the Geo class in ufxtract https://github.com/glennjones/UfXtract/blob/master/ufXtract/Utilities/Geo.cs
  77. # [12:03] <@tantek> ok, cool. as long as these are utilities classes I think that works great
  78. # [12:03] <gjones> Maybe I should make a second library that took the JSON and converted into more usable native objects. Keep it away from the parser
  79. # [12:03] <@tantek> right
  80. # [12:03] <@tantek> that would make more sense - keep the parser simpler, more minimal
  81. # [12:03] <@tantek> we should specify things like whitespace normalization, but not much more.
  82. # [12:03] <Loqi> I agree
  83. # [12:04] <@tantek> thanks Loqi
  84. # [12:04] <Loqi> you're welcome
  85. # [12:04] <@tantek> (???)
  86. # [12:04] <@tantek> nothing strongly typed - with the exception of the datetime parsing needed to make the value class pattern work
  87. # [12:06] <gjones> This is approach make a lot sense to me. Just wanted to make sure before I went to far I think it will mean some changes for Barnaby
  88. # [12:08] <gjones> Also I think that means I can drop the asserts from the test.
  89. # [12:09] <gjones> Ok second point do we need to use *-x-* i.e. p-x-result on experimental properties if its already on the root i.e. h-x-test-fixture
  90. # [12:11] <gjones> *-x-* on lots of properties can be visual very heavy to read example in https://github.com/microformats/tests/blob/master/h-card.html
  91. # [12:14] <tommorris> gjones: in the project I'm working on, I'm sticking a p-x-type on hCards. Basically, it's a simple text description of the type of place something is, like "government building", "library", "Buddhist temple", "gay bar", "bank" etc.
  92. # [12:15] <@tantek> tommorris - "type" is a horrible name for anything ;)
  93. # [12:15] <@tantek> overloaded to the point of meaninglessness
  94. # [12:15] <@tantek> gjones - a root class name does not scope the properties used within
  95. # [12:15] <tommorris> yeah. tell me about it. especially if you happpen to be using a statically typed programming language. ;-)
  96. # [12:15] <@tantek> all properties mean the same thing across all microformats
  97. # [12:15] <@tantek> a p-name inside an h-card means the same thing as a p-name inside an h-event
  98. # [12:16] <tommorris> might switch it to p-x-venue-type or something like that
  99. # [12:16] <@tantek> so you can't "just use it on the root"
  100. # [12:16] <tommorris> or p-x-venue-description
  101. # [12:16] <@tantek> venue-category even
  102. # [12:16] <@tantek> since what it sounds like you're talking about is a taxonomy of venues
  103. # [12:16] <@tantek> and 'category' typically implies explicit taxonomy (perhaps by the author)
  104. # [12:16] <tommorris> yeah, and I may be able to match those up with some well-known external vocabulary like Wikipedia ;-)
  105. # [12:17] <@tantek> in contrast to folksonomic 'tags'
  106. # [12:17] <@tantek> e.g. Foursquare calls them "categories"
  107. # [12:18] <@tantek> e.g. https://foursquare.com/v/four-barrel-coffee/480d1a5ef964a520284f1fe3
  108. # [12:18] <@tantek> from their explicit hierarchical taxonomy:
  109. # [12:18] <@tantek> Categories
  110. # [12:18] <@tantek> Categories help describe what type of place this is
  111. # [12:18] <@tantek> + Coffee Shop
  112. # [12:18] <@tantek> X
  113. # [12:18] <@tantek> primary category
  114. # [12:18] <@tantek> + Bakery
  115. # [12:18] <@tantek> X
  116. # [12:18] <@tantek> set as primary
  117. # [12:18] <@tantek> + Donut Shop
  118. # [12:18] <@tantek> X
  119. # [12:18] <@tantek> set as primary
  120. # [12:18] <@tantek> and then in addition to that, they *also* have tags - for users to contribute any string labels they want
  121. # [12:18] <@tantek> e.g.
  122. # [12:19] <@tantek> Tags
  123. # [12:19] <@tantek> Use tags to let people know what they can expect here:
  124. # [12:19] <@tantek> + good_mark
  125. # [12:19] <@tantek> + espresso
  126. # [12:19] <@tantek> + mopeds
  127. # [12:19] <@tantek> + donuts
  128. # [12:19] <@tantek> + smug
  129. # [12:19] <@tantek> + cute boy baristas
  130. # [12:20] <gjones> OK, I can see the bigger picture for always using the *-x-* on experimental properties.
  131. # [12:20] <@tantek> etc....
  132. # [12:20] <@tantek> gjones, because property names are unscoped
  133. # [12:20] <@tantek> but if you can re-use existing property names from other microformats, that's even better
  134. # [12:21] <gjones> Its going to be interesting to see how many people start adding them to h-card etc - reinvent the wheel could be an issue
  135. # [12:23] <gjones> I will put a pointer in the github issue thread to this
  136. # [12:24] <gjones> I am sure there will be more questions along the way, I will try bring them up here
  137. # [12:25] <@tantek> thanks gjones
  138. # [12:26] <@tantek> if it's possible to simplify the questions to like 1-2 sentences each at most, we can add them to a microformats2-parser-faq
  139. # [12:26] <@tantek> the thread on github was too essay-like to follow what was really going on - what were statements vs. questions formed as statements
  140. # [12:26] <@tantek> hence I needed to ask in IRC with short statements back/forth
  141. # [12:28] <@tantek> anyway maybe I was the only one confused by the github thread. tweet-like brief self-contained specific questions are easier to answer.
  142. # [12:28] <@tantek> thanks
  143. # [12:33] <gjones> Will try and keep that in mind, the github was a bit to much of mind dump, but helped me frame some of design issues for uf2 parsing. Short questions from now on :)
  144. # [12:45] <@tantek> awesome - feel free to use for minddumps too - they're just harder to follow-up on
  145. # [12:45] <@tantek> sometimes a minddump can help with formulating a simpler question
  146. # [12:46] <@tantek> it's actually why I prefer wikis to threads like that
  147. # [12:47] <@tantek> wiki minddumps can be edited, iterated until they're more and more readable
  148. # [12:47] <@tantek> whereas threads (whether email, forum, or github issues) are designed to preserve minddumps are primary content rather than just historical reference.
  149. # [12:52] <@tantek> ok, thanks for clarifying the questions gjones
  150. # [12:52] <@tantek> I hope we covered enough to answer the questions from that github issue thread.
  151. # [12:53] <@tantek> I'm going to head to bed unless there's anything else for now.
  152. # [12:53] <Loqi> [[Recommendations In Buying Cialis Online7871748]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Recommendations_In_Buying_Cialis_Online7871748&rcid=65468 * DoloresxkiubfgidjFlaharty * (+3216) New page: Within the health care industry, the word they generally utilize is Tadalafil. Yet, in stores, it is commonly referred to as Cialis which is the drug of preference for erectile dysfunction
  153. # [12:55] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:DoloresxkiubfgidjFlaharty]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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  162. # [14:10] <Loqi> [[hrecipe]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hrecipe&diff=49085&oldid=49070&rcid=65471 * Ebruesgin * (+120) /* Examples in the wild */
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  168. # [16:16] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/FreeWSOdownload :: Free download: WSO - WP Author hReview (Plugin) http://www.freewso.info/wp-author-hreview-plugin/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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  180. # [19:32] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Cialis Versus Viagra4000303]]": content was spam
  181. # [19:34] <Loqi> [[hrecipe]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hrecipe&diff=49087&oldid=49085&rcid=65475 * Tantek * (-120) yemektarifinet is a recipe but lacks hRecipe markup. please add it! Undo revision 49085 by [[Special:Contributions/Ebruesgin|Ebruesgin]] ([[User talk:Ebruesgin|Talk]])
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  190. # [22:17] <Loqi> [[geo-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=geo-examples-in-wild&diff=49088&oldid=44695&rcid=65476 * TomMorris * (+257) so, there's this little website called OpenStreetMap that has 1.7 billion geo microformats. pretty cool.
  191. # [22:42] <Loqi> [[User:nhidbf199]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:nhidbf199&rcid=65477 * Nhidbf199 * (+3614) Meg tells me you are wanting a room
  192. # [23:05] * Joins: rjmt___ (~uid1@46-65-55-86.zone16.bethere.co.uk)
  193. # [23:22] * Quits: tobyink (~tai@host109-152-196-131.range109-152.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  194. # Session Close: Sun Dec 02 00:00:00 2012

The end :)