/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2013-01-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 23 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:16] * Joins: gjones (~gjones@cpc22-brig15-2-0-cust92.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  4. # [00:16] <Loqi> gjones: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 22 minutes ago: - sounds good - will link to that. Thanks again! p.s. working on h-product vocab now (and the backward compat hProduct vocab)
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  7. # [00:35] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/victorhvgo :: Fascinante: Science Explains Why We'll Probably Never Be Able To Respawn in Real Life http://www.pulse.me/s/hCarD
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  9. # [00:36] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/pulse_games :: Science Explains Why We'll Probably Never Be Able To Respawn in Real Life http://www.pulse.me/s/hCarD
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  18. # [02:12] <Loqi> [[por favor pongan I Wanna buy anavar oxandrolone Give My Heart de Denise Rosenthal]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=por_favor_pongan_I_Wanna_buy_anavar_oxandrolone_Give_My_Heart_de_Denise_Rosenthal&rcid=66700 * ChairAsh1 * (+1482) New page: [[Image:buy_anavar_oxandrolone_2559.jpg|thumb|]] IUsedTo think that clouds followed me... I still haven't been proved otherwise o_O W
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  32. # [03:43] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[por favor pongan I Wanna buy anavar oxandrolone Give My Heart de Denise Rosenthal]]": content was spam
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  34. # [04:07] <Loqi> [[ESTE MIERCOLES EN EL AMANDA EN VIVO tipo football tickets online 12 de la noche gratis hasta las 23 horas luego 5mil]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=ESTE_MIERCOLES_EN_EL_AMANDA_EN_VIVO_tipo_football_tickets_online_12_de_la_noche_gratis_hasta_las_23_horas_luego_5mil&rcid=66703 * DedicationCorrea * (+2409) New page: [[Image:football_tickets_online_5423.jpg|thumb|]] Just a
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  86. # [14:17] <Loqi> [[NasalPolypsTreatmentMiracleTrial6853967]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=NasalPolypsTreatmentMiracleTrial6853967&rcid=66704 * AndresbouytcpxyButtram * (+4140) New page: Chipped In by: [http://www.NasalPolypsTreatmentMiracle.org How To Stop Snoring Naturally] Nasal Polyps Treatment Miracle combines modern nutritional as well as medical principles togethe...
  87. # [14:41] <Loqi> [[MetabolicCookingPDF8712123]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=MetabolicCookingPDF8712123&rcid=66705 * StanforddrvtgepmjxFerriola * (+4039) New page: Written by: [http://www.NaturalOvarianCystReliefSecrets.org Reviews on Natural Ovarian Cyst Relief Secrets] Metabolic Cooking is really a guideline that gives individuals the opportunity...
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  91. # [16:47] <Loqi> [[rfc-2445]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rfc-2445&diff=49689&oldid=33499&rcid=66706 * Zearin * (-2) Use the hypertext version of RFC documents
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  93. # [17:29] <Loqi> [[User:Tantek]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:Tantek&diff=49690&oldid=49516&rcid=66707 * Cheap18 * (+1169)
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  96. # [17:34] <Loqi> [[User:Tantek]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:Tantek&diff=49691&oldid=49690&rcid=66708 * Tantek * (-1169) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Cheap18|Cheap18]] ([[User talk:Cheap18|Talk]]) to last version by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
  97. # [17:35] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:DedicationCorrea]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  98. # [17:35] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:AndresbouytcpxyButtram]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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  100. # [17:35] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Cheap18]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  101. # [17:35] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[ESTE MIERCOLES EN EL AMANDA EN VIVO tipo football tickets online 12 de la noche gratis hasta las 23 horas luego 5mil]]": content was spam
  102. # [17:35] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[NasalPolypsTreatmentMiracleTrial6853967]]": content was spam
  103. # [17:35] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[MetabolicCookingPDF8712123]]": content was spam
  104. # [17:42] <Loqi> [[rfc-2445]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rfc-2445&diff=49692&oldid=49689&rcid=66716 * Tantek * (+7) linking to plain txt version is a deliberate choice as noted in the text of this page, Undo revision 49689 by [[Special:Contributions/Zearin|Zearin]] ([[User talk:Zearin|Talk]]), entry-title, auto-toc
  105. # [17:42] <Loqi> [[rfc-2445]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rfc-2445&diff=49693&oldid=49692&rcid=66717 * Tantek * (-17) entry-title fix
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  120. # [21:08] <barnabywalters> I’d be interested in opinions about just how incorrect my usage of p-location is here: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/867/
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  123. # [21:43] <aaronpk> can I use rel=alternate on an <a> tag to link to alternate versions in other languages? http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-alternate#alternate_language_versions
  124. # [21:44] <barnabywalters> aaronpk: I do. add the hreflang attribute too to give it a bit of extra meaning
  125. # [21:44] <barnabywalters> e.g. http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/chopped-up-cloned-you-choose/
  126. # [21:44] <aaronpk> cool
  127. # [21:45] <aaronpk> I also want to design some sort of header banner to link to alternate translations in a standard way on my site
  128. # [21:45] <barnabywalters> aaronpk: yeah, I haven’t done any interesting UI as you can see. It’s probably something that has been researched/we should research+document on the µf wiki
  129. # [21:46] <aaronpk> someone just translated an old article into Serbo-Croatian so now I have that plus christophe's, so I need to link to them
  130. # [21:46] <aaronpk> http://science.webhostinggeeks.com/web-alati-ucionice
  131. # [21:48] <barnabywalters> oh cool
  132. # [21:48] <barnabywalters> no idea what the language code for serbo-croatian is
  133. # [21:48] <aaronpk> heh
  134. # [21:49] <aaronpk> sh - deprecated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian
  135. # [21:49] <aaronpk> looks like it's "hbs" now
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  138. # [21:59] <iSRAELi> hi
  139. # [22:02] <Loqi> [[Erection problems Causes5026778]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Erection_problems_Causes5026778&rcid=66718 * LizbethfwgnrjbiwqPfoutz * (+2600) New page: Erection problems (ED) parallelbezeichnung "impotence". This is a common sickness affecting numerous men around the world, and might become an unhealthy complication from some prescription...
  140. # [22:10] <iSRAELi> [[Erection problems Causes5026778]]
  141. # [22:10] <iSRAELi> something for you barnabywalters :D
  142. # [22:11] <barnabywalters> iSRAELi: ??? what are you implying?
  143. # [22:11] <iSRAELi> haha
  144. # [22:11] <iSRAELi> nothing
  145. # [22:12] <iSRAELi> i was thinking alot about this tag:
  146. # [22:12] <iSRAELi> <q cite=""></q>
  147. # [22:13] <barnabywalters> oh right? I’m not a huge fan of the cite attribute personally as it’s non-human-visible metadata
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  150. # [22:17] <iSRAELi> well thats exactly what i like
  151. # [22:17] <iSRAELi> something for google
  152. # [22:17] <iSRAELi> so it will rank me up :D
  153. # [22:18] <iSRAELi> i think im gonna learn html5 and css from lynda.com
  154. # [22:18] <iSRAELi> i really want to explore as many html tags as possible
  155. # [22:15] <Loqi> [[SO 2 loli hope north york HP EliteBook repair ur mentions still aint dry]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=SO_2_loli_hope_north_york_HP_EliteBook_repair_ur_mentions_still_aint_dry&rcid=66719 * SmithWestbrook * (+2078) New page: [[Image:north_york_HP_EliteBook_repair_3256.jpg|thumb|]] Today is the 70th anniversary of the execution of Mykola Trusevych, Oleksiy Klymenko & Iv
  156. # [22:16] <iSRAELi> by the way
  157. # [22:16] <iSRAELi> what is <wbr>
  158. # [22:16] <iSRAELi> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_wbr.asp
  159. # [22:16] <iSRAELi> here it looks like it dont have a closer
  160. # [22:16] <iSRAELi> <wbr />
  161. # [22:16] <iSRAELi> it should be in this method
  162. # [22:18] <barnabywalters> iSRAELi: if you want to learn HTML5 in the fullest possible way, http://developers.whatwg.org is the place to go :)
  163. # [22:18] <barnabywalters> HTML: The Living Standard
  164. # [22:19] <barnabywalters> and I prefer to mark up for users, not for search engines ;) I very much doubt adding a cite attribute will have a better effect than just linking to the other site
  165. # [22:19] <barnabywalters> using a straightforward <a> is better for people and machines
  166. # [22:21] <barnabywalters> and the closing slash thing is an HTML vs XHTM/XML thing. XML *requires* those slashes for elements with no end tag, in HTML5 it is optional
  167. # [22:21] <barnabywalters> I believe in HTML4 the trailing slash was forbidden, but it’s possible to write HTML5 which is almost completely XHTML compatible
  168. # [22:22] <barnabywalters> which makes doing things like converting HTML to RSS or ATOM *loads* easier
  169. # [22:33] * @tantek scrolls up
  170. # [22:34] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:LizbethfwgnrjbiwqPfoutz]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  171. # [22:34] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:SmithWestbrook]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  172. # [22:34] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Erection problems Causes5026778]]": content was spam
  173. # [22:34] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[SO 2 loli hope north york HP EliteBook repair ur mentions still aint dry]]": content was spam
  174. # [22:34] * Quits: tobyink (~tai@host109-152-198-195.range109-152.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  175. # [22:35] <@tantek> barnabywalters - indeed, though I'd clarify that by saying it's possible (and preferable!) to write HTML5 that is XML valid (XHTML is no longer relevant) per: http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5
  176. # [22:37] <barnabywalters> okay, so XML not XHTML :)
  177. # [22:37] <iSRAELi> <barnabywalters> and I prefer to mark up for users, not for search engines ;) I very much doubt adding a cite attribute will have a better effect than just linking to the other site
  178. # [22:37] <iSRAELi> it is a different type of link
  179. # [22:38] <@tantek> iSRAELi, which search engines do anything with the cite attribute? examples?
  180. # [22:38] <iSRAELi> no
  181. # [22:38] <iSRAELi> <q cite="LINK">
  182. # [22:38] <iSRAELi> thats what i mean
  183. # [22:39] <iSRAELi> i must walk out the dog brb
  184. # [22:39] <@tantek> sure, <blockquote> has a similar cite attribute. and <ins> and <del> also have a cite attribute for citing an explanation of the change.
  185. # [22:39] <@tantek> the question still stands:
  186. # [22:40] <@tantek> Which search engines bother to parse (and crawl?) the "cite" attribute (on q, blockquote, ins, and/or del), and what if anything do they do with it?
  187. # [22:41] <barnabywalters> apart from the edit transaction use case you came up with for ins/del cite="", I can’t see any benefit in quote cites over having a visible link to the source
  188. # [22:42] <barnabywalters> aren’t the use cases documented somewhere?
  189. # [22:44] <@tantek> barnabywalters the *one* use case I've come up with so far for having <q cite> and <blockquote cite> WITHOUT a visible link right there adjacent in the source is when you want to make the quote automatically discoverable/followable, but not *distracting* to the reader (too many links = distractions = bad UI for reading)
  190. # [22:45] * Joins: sophiap (~sophiap@69-12-169-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net)
  191. # [22:46] <barnabywalters> okay, I was thinking of something similar, i.e. wanting to send a pingback (for example) to a link without it distracting the user. Problem with that particular example is I’m pretty sure no pingback implementation accepts pingbacks without actual links!
  192. # [22:46] * Quits: sophiap (~sophiap@69-12-169-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  193. # [22:46] <barnabywalters> tantek: have you ever used Blekko’s grep the web for doing research into this sort of thing?
  194. # [22:47] * Joins: sophiap (~sophiap@69-12-169-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net)
  195. # [22:48] <barnabywalters> research into usage, that is
  196. # [22:49] <@tantek> barnabywalters - not sure how to use Blekko for this kind of thing. E.g. how would I use Blekko to search for usage of specific microformats?
  197. # [22:49] <barnabywalters> https://blekko.com/webgrep
  198. # [22:49] <@tantek> BTW re: (too many links = distractions = bad UI for reading) - here are some points/posts on that matter: http://tantek.com/2013/001/b1/twelve-blog-post-writing-tips#footer-links and http://tantek.com/2012/156/b1/focus-enabling-design-distilled and http://tantek.com/2012/152/b1/citation-ui-focus-enabling-design
  199. # [22:49] <iSRAELi> yes
  200. # [22:49] <iSRAELi> exactly
  201. # [22:49] <iSRAELi> what effect does it have on search engine crawler?
  202. # [22:50] <iSRAELi> maybe none
  203. # [22:50] <iSRAELi> but it is a different type of link to your website,
  204. # [22:50] <iSRAELi> and you dont have THAT many,
  205. # [22:50] <iSRAELi> image link, nofollow link, regular link, relationship link
  206. # [22:50] <iSRAELi> what else?
  207. # [22:50] <@tantek> if you don't know if it has any effect, why bother?
  208. # [22:50] <iSRAELi> well, if i will never try anything "out of the box" for my seo company
  209. # [22:50] <iSRAELi> why would they hire me if i cant improve?
  210. # [22:50] <iSRAELi> :)
  211. # [22:51] <@tantek> barnabywalters - have you created any Blekko searches? I'm a little hesitant to get into their sign-up process unless it's not too much of a hassle.
  212. # [22:51] <barnabywalters> I haven’t, but I have an account. Send me a regex and I’ll submit it
  213. # [22:52] <@tantek> how do they do class attribute processing?
  214. # [22:52] <@tantek> e.g. since class attributes are space separated sets, we can't just look for class="hentry" for example
  215. # [22:53] <barnabywalters> hm, it allows a max of three string patterns, not regex ones ("yet")
  216. # [22:54] <@tantek> we have to look for things like:
  217. # [22:54] <@tantek> here's an XPath
  218. # [22:54] <barnabywalters> so looks like any searches we did with it at the moment would be tainted
  219. # [22:54] <@tantek> /*[contains(concat(' ',@class,' '),' ","hproduct"," ')]
  220. # [22:54] <@tantek> er, this: "//*[contains(concat(' ',@class,' '),' ",'hproduct'," ')]"
  221. # [22:54] <@tantek> similarly for rel values
  222. # [22:55] <@tantek> since a rel attribute is space separated
  223. # [22:55] <barnabywalters> I’m acquainted with one of the members of staff, I’ll ask him about adding regex patterns. not sure if XPath will be viable as it requires HTML parsing but we can approximate it with regexes
  224. # [22:55] <@tantek> you have to use something like XPath: "//*[contains(concat(' ','author',' '),' ",$s," ')]"
  225. # [22:55] <@tantek> to look for rel author usage
  226. # [22:56] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@10.105-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  227. # [22:56] <iSRAELi> anyway
  228. # [22:56] <iSRAELi> good night
  229. # [22:56] <@tantek> unless it's possible to do that, then it's not clear how we can use Blekko without either missing a lot of data or having too many false positives
  230. # [22:56] <Loqi> gute nacht!
  231. # [22:56] <iSRAELi> and happy html5 :)
  232. # [22:56] <barnabywalters> good night iSRAELi
  233. # [22:56] * Quits: sophiap (~sophiap@69-12-169-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  234. # [22:57] <@tantek> if we can look for multiple simple string patterns I guess we can look for:
  235. # [22:57] * Quits: charl__ (~charl@charl.eu) (Quit: leaving)
  236. # [22:57] <@tantek> class="hproduct", class="hproduct *", class="* hproduct", class="* hproduct *"
  237. # [22:57] <@tantek> but that's four patterns already
  238. # [22:58] <@tantek> and if you add in single quote variants
  239. # [22:58] <@tantek> class='hproduct', class='hproduct *', class='* hproduct', class='* hproduct *'
  240. # [22:58] <barnabywalters> yeah, not great at the moment. I’ve contacted greg, I’ll see what he says
  241. # [22:58] <@tantek> that's four more
  242. # [22:58] <@tantek> = 8
  243. # [22:58] <@tantek> and 8 > 3
  244. # [22:58] <@tantek> so....
  245. # [22:58] <@tantek> that's a problem for any research we'd want to do with respect to any use of rel or class microformats
  246. # [22:59] <@tantek> e.g. this is flawed for that reason: https://blekko.com/webgrep?page=view&id=e9c502401d8c358648e8109eb5562359
  247. # [22:59] <@tantek> it's not catching all uses of rel me or rel author
  248. # [22:59] <@tantek> there are plenty of uses of rel me that are rel="me nofollow" or rel="nofollow me"
  249. # [22:59] <@tantek> so yeah, Blekko needs improvement before it is useful for us
  250. # [22:59] <@tantek> feel free to copy/paste any of these examples / suggestions if it would help get this stuff implemented in Blekko
  251. # [23:02] <barnabywalters> tantek: I added a link to the logs :)
  252. # [23:03] * barnabywalters is currently finishing off his µf2 talk for tomorrow
  253. # [23:04] <@tantek> barnabywalters - awesome! uf2 talk? when/where? we should add it to microformats.org/wiki/events
  254. # [23:04] * Joins: sophiap (~sophiap@69-12-169-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net)
  255. # [23:04] <barnabywalters> at tomorrow’s Exeter Web meetup (the only meetup in Devon, once every two months)
  256. # [23:04] <barnabywalters> I’ll add it once I’ve finished the slides
  257. # [23:05] <@tantek> barnabywalters btw - both those XPath expressions for class and rel were copied from #cassis.js
  258. # [23:05] <@tantek> specifically the xphasclass() and xphasrel() functions
  259. # [23:05] <barnabywalters> ah, I saw those when I was trying to figure out how to *use* cassis. Lots of very short, unexplained varnames ;)
  260. # [23:06] <barnabywalters> oh wow! glindahl offered to run the regexes if I email them to him! So no luck on XPath but I’ll try to write some bulletproof regexes
  261. # [23:06] <@tantek> "very short, unexplained varnames" <-- typical C programmer behavior
  262. # [23:06] <barnabywalters> I thought as much ;)
  263. # [23:07] <@tantek> barnabywalters - great! if you could generalize your regexes (like with a $s parameter ;) )
  264. # [23:07] <barnabywalters> yeah, that’s fairly easy
  265. # [23:07] <barnabywalters> so, any requests?
  266. # [23:07] <@tantek> then it would be great to see results for all the root microformats classes mentioned here: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#v2_vocabularies
  267. # [23:07] <barnabywalters> the µf2 ones?
  268. # [23:08] <@tantek> both
  269. # [23:08] <barnabywalters> sure
  270. # [23:08] <@tantek> every uf2 root class, like "h-adr", and the respective backcompat root class (if any), like "adr"
  271. # [23:09] * Quits: sophiap (~sophiap@69-12-169-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  272. # [23:10] <@tantek> the list of uf2 vocabs on the uf2 wiki page is fairly complete BTW, per the list here: http://tantek.com/presentations/2012/09/microformats2/#slide9
  273. # [23:10] <@tantek> (pretty sure I sent that slide to you a while ago, but if not, please feel free to use the content contained in that slide preso per cc-by)
  274. # [23:15] <Loqi> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=events&diff=49696&oldid=49278&rcid=66724 * Tantek * (+453) move events to past, add event for Exeter Web meetup and microformats2 talk by barnabywalters
  275. # [23:15] <@tantek> ok I added the brief description of your event to the wiki page barnaby
  276. # [23:15] <barnabywalters> cheers
  277. # [23:15] <@tantek> you'll have to fill out / create the permalink page itself: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2013-01-24-exeter-web-meetup
  278. # [23:15] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  279. # [23:16] <@tantek> feel free to copy/paste/clone/replace as needed from existing events like http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2012-12-18-meetup
  280. # [23:16] <barnabywalters> will do, but tomorrow morning. too late now :) goodnight all
  281. # [23:16] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-92-17-185-167.as13285.net) (Quit: Back to real life!)
  282. # [23:16] <Loqi> sweet dreams
  283. # Session Close: Thu Jan 24 00:00:00 2013

The end :)