/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2013-03-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 04 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  14. # [04:02] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/Luiz_HCard :: Eai, acabei de chegar, e ja devia ta tomando banho pra dormir mas...hauha
  15. # [04:06] <@tantek> !block Luiz_HCard
  16. # [04:06] <Loqi> Got it! There are now 84 spammers blacklisted
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  18. # [04:58] <Loqi> [[Hey, Officer I Only had a Few Beers!]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hey%2C_Officer_I_Only_had_a_Few_Beers%21&rcid=68127 * Shfolwell68 * (+2283) Alcoholics might not realize themselves how many drinks they drink frequently but their friends and family and even the arresting police officer know it very well how much they have had to drink. There are many alcohol rehabilit
  19. # [04:59] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Shfolwell68]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  20. # [04:59] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Hey, Officer I Only had a Few Beers!]]": content was spam
  21. # [05:11] <Loqi> [[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-faq&diff=50461&oldid=46667&rcid=68130 * Tantek * (+356) /* What does FN stand for */ add How do you mark up a first or last name
  22. # [05:17] <Loqi> [[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-faq&diff=50462&oldid=50461&rcid=68131 * Tantek * (+100) /* How do you mark up a first or last name */ examples
  23. # [05:36] <Loqi> [[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-faq&diff=50463&oldid=50462&rcid=68132 * Tantek * (+461) add How do you mark up city state and zip
  24. # [05:51] <Loqi> [[gender-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=gender-brainstorming&diff=50464&oldid=43352&rcid=68133 * Tantek * (+404) moved old gender brainstorms from FAQ to here
  25. # [05:52] <Loqi> [[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-faq&diff=50465&oldid=50463&rcid=68134 * Tantek * (-469) /* How is gender represented */ noted p-sex and p-gender-identity as part of h-card, removed extra MSDN/Google links, move old gender brainstorming to [[gender-brainstorming]] accordingly
  26. # [06:02] <Loqi> [[rfc-6350]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rfc-6350&diff=50466&oldid=46657&rcid=68135 * Tantek * (+162) /* new properties */ gender subproperties, code markup
  27. # [06:03] <Loqi> [[rfc-6350]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rfc-6350&diff=50467&oldid=50466&rcid=68136 * Tantek * (+128) /* new properties */ h-card equivalents to gender subproperties
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  32. # [06:27] <JonathanNeal> Say I've got two telephone numbers, one is a "cell" line and the other is a "clown" line.
  33. # [06:30] <@tantek> Hey JonathanNeal
  34. # [06:30] <JonathanNeal> we can move the conversation here :)
  35. # [06:30] <JonathanNeal> since it's about microformats and all
  36. # [06:31] <@tantek> Cool
  37. # [06:33] <JonathanNeal> is it "p-email" or "u-email"?
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  45. # [06:38] <JonathanNeal> welcome back
  46. # [06:40] <JonathanNeal> Ah, I get it.
  47. # [06:41] <JonathanNeal> p-* is for simple properties
  48. # [06:41] <JonathanNeal> u-* is for url properties
  49. # [06:41] <JonathanNeal> beautiful
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  55. # [06:52] <JonathanNeal> it's not "address", it's "adr"?
  56. # [06:53] <JonathanNeal> Why the save-some-bytes name?
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  61. # [07:11] <@tantek> "adr" is from vCard
  62. # [07:12] <@Phae> Hi hober!
  63. # [07:13] <@tantek> Hi Phae!
  64. # [07:17] <JonathanNeal> sure, but does hcard allow also for "address"?
  65. # [07:17] <iSRAELi> http://www.seobythesea.com/2013/03/google-change-search-result-snippets/
  66. # [07:17] <iSRAELi> lets hope it will not happen :S
  67. # [07:21] <bretolius> Do people know of any interesting browser plugins that do interesting things with the different semantic web data one might come across, like microformats?
  68. # [07:23] <@tantek> JonathanNeal: No, hcard does not have aliases like "address" because that just ends up confusing people
  69. # [07:24] <@tantek> (Having two names for the same thing)
  70. # [07:25] <JonathanNeal> Is there a classname that specifies when an element is a note of a property?
  71. # [07:26] <@tantek> Note of a property?
  72. # [07:26] <@tantek> iSRAELi: That seo article seems handwavy and useless almost like astrology.
  73. # [07:27] <JonathanNeal> <x class="p-tel"><x class="type">work</x>: <x class="value">714-849-1138</x> <x class="note">evenings and weekends only</x></x>
  74. # [07:28] <Loqi> 714-849-1138: Huntington Beach, CA.
  75. # [07:29] <JonathanNeal> Side note, that is awesome, that number is THX-1138 with the area code I grew up in … it was my way of doing lorem ipsum, but it really exists, wow.
  76. # [07:29] <@tantek> JonathanNeal: When you start structuring a property like that, either you need a new microformat or another property
  77. # [07:30] <JonathanNeal> in an example, i saw "type" and "value" being used inside a p-tel, and I figured it was the place to put a note regarding the p-tel property too.
  78. # [07:30] <@tantek> The "type" subproperty is only there for legacy
  79. # [07:31] <@tantek> Might need an h-tel microformat in the future for this kind of thing
  80. # [07:31] <JonathanNeal> got it … so going back to my cell/work/volcano line, how do I mark up the type of p-tel I am listing?
  81. # [07:31] <@tantek> It looked good
  82. # [07:32] <JonathanNeal> but the note took it too far?
  83. # [07:34] <@tantek> No, type took it too far, but we have to keep it for legacy
  84. # [07:34] <@tantek> So nothing new for sure
  85. # [07:34] <JonathanNeal> In this example, I'm marking up a neighborhood organization. People have their names, title in the org, email, cell phone, with notes after the number giving any special instructions about when to call those numbers.
  86. # [07:34] <JonathanNeal> cell phone, work phone, etc.
  87. # [07:35] <JonathanNeal> i'd prefer to use whatever worked best and not something legacy.
  88. # [07:35] <@tantek> URL?
  89. # [07:36] <iSRAELi> <tantek> iSRAELi: That seo article seems handwavy and useless almost like astrology.
  90. # [07:36] <JonathanNeal> <x class="p-tel"><x class="name">work</x>: <x class="url">818-290-0210</x></x> ?
  91. # [07:36] <Loqi> 818-290-0210: Van Nuys, CA.
  92. # [07:36] <iSRAELi> yeah i have read it, it doesnt seem legit
  93. # [07:37] <iSRAELi> tantek i would love your review on the following microformats:
  94. # [07:37] <iSRAELi> http://www.meytavti.co.il/?p=152
  95. # [07:37] <iSRAELi> how is the code looks for you :D
  96. # [07:42] <JonathanNeal> If there isn't aliasing in microformats, then what is "fn" versus "p-name" ?
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  100. # [07:48] <@tantek> JonathanNeal: microformats2 switched from fn to name because fn has been too confusing to too many people for many years
  101. # [07:48] <@tantek> Painful learned experience
  102. # [07:48] <@tantek> And in contrast to other renamings, everyone who "fixes" vCard in their vocabulary switches fn to name
  103. # [07:49] <@tantek> It's a rare example of a universally consistent renaming
  104. # [07:49] <JonathanNeal> all right.
  105. # [07:50] <JonathanNeal> Have I marked up the President's role in government correctly? https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478
  106. # [07:51] <@tantek> That whole thing doesn't read as an org (which is how you marked it up)
  107. # [07:51] <@tantek> If you want role use p-role
  108. # [07:52] <JonathanNeal> done, i was more concerned about category anyway. whew.
  109. # [07:53] <@tantek> I mean, I'm not sure about the nesting
  110. # [07:54] <@tantek> Or what exactly you're trying to do with it
  111. # [07:55] <JonathanNeal> Nesting isn't expected?
  112. # [07:55] <JonathanNeal> nesting is how I arrived at <x class="p-tel"><x class="p-name">work</x>: <x class="p-url">714-923-4964</x></x>
  113. # [07:55] <Loqi> 714-923-4964: Orange, CA.
  114. # [07:56] <@tantek> Nesting is not the normal case
  115. # [07:56] <@tantek> The normal thing is just a microformat with a flat set of properties.
  116. # [07:57] <@tantek> Not sure what you're trying to do with p-tel there
  117. # [07:57] <@tantek> I think you're trying to do too much with it
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  120. # [07:58] <@tantek> When I said URL I was asking for a URL to the page you were trying to markup
  121. # [07:58] <@tantek> Not saying to add a URL peppery
  122. # [07:58] <JonathanNeal> hahaha
  123. # [07:58] <@tantek> *propery
  124. # [07:58] <@tantek> Lol
  125. # [07:58] <@tantek> *property
  126. # [07:58] <JonathanNeal> i'm laughing at what i did, i wasn't laughing at your spellcheck.
  127. # [07:59] <@tantek> The nested type for work thing is a leftover exception
  128. # [07:59] <JonathanNeal> i'm sorry you have such a vengeful spellchecker.
  129. # [07:59] <@tantek> iPod
  130. # [07:59] <JonathanNeal> bummer about no nesting.
  131. # [08:00] <JonathanNeal> i'm just trying to mark up contact information appropriately in real world examples.
  132. # [08:00] <@tantek> Just check out the examples on the value class pattern page for tel / type / value and don't make it more complicated than that
  133. # [08:00] <@tantek> If its a real world example , start with sharing the URL to the real world example
  134. # [08:00] <@tantek> Hard to sometimes evaluate what to do outside the context
  135. # [08:02] <JonathanNeal> I can send you one of the docs I'm working with.
  136. # [08:02] <JonathanNeal> I'm, like, "microformatting all the things".
  137. # [08:02] <Loqi> MICROFORMATT ALL THE THINGS http://loqi.me/6eo
  138. # [08:02] <JonathanNeal> exactly
  139. # [08:03] <@tantek> Hahaha
  140. # [08:05] <JonathanNeal> I have this problem whenever I deal with a company over the phone. They can't tag notes to specific entries. They have one cauldron of notes and it all gets mixed up.
  141. # [08:08] <JonathanNeal> Anyway … I guess there aren't enough real world examples of the kind I'm looking for.
  142. # [08:12] <iSRAELi> :(
  143. # [08:12] <iSRAELi> http://images.memegenerator.net/Instance/Preview?imageID=1121885&text0=microformatt&text1=all+the+things
  144. # [08:12] <iSRAELi> thats how i roll :D
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  146. # [08:14] <JonathanNeal> I fleshed out the example https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478
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  149. # [08:17] <JonathanNeal> I left "?" where I wasn't as sure anymore.
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  183. # [14:12] <Loqi> [[User:ksoopnzud]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:ksoopnzud&rcid=68137 * Ksoopnzud * (+2674) 0
  184. # [14:12] <Loqi> [[User:ksoopnzud]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:ksoopnzud&diff=50469&oldid=50468&rcid=68138 * Ksoopnzud * (+2888) /* 1 */ new section
  185. # [14:12] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * TomMorris * deleted "[[User:ksoopnzud]]": Vandalism
  186. # [14:12] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * TomMorris * blocked [[User:Ksoopnzud]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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  190. # [15:39] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/adactio :: @Malarkey One doesn’t. Or, more precisely, one updates one’s hCard on one’s website (or one’s avatar on Flickr).
  191. # [15:44] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/Malarkey :: @adactio Strange. One’s hcard point to Twitter (rel=me / new avatar) and one’s Flickr has it too.
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  193. # [16:25] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/eobo :: hreview of Terra Tenebrosa's 'The Purging' on the mighty @Beardrock http://www.beardrock.co.uk/TgL
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  197. # [17:06] <Loqi> [[Hair thinning - A serious Problem]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hair_thinning_-_A_serious_Problem&rcid=68141 * ShanexghmayzcsjwgwwfppqmzidpofiwkubktdskSzabat * (+2809) New page: As we age, we recognize adjustments within our bodies and in our wellness - it really is unavoidable. A single clear modify is within our hair and skin. We're all dropping it. It turns int...
  198. # [17:09] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * TomMorris * deleted "[[Hair thinning - A serious Problem]]": Vandalism
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  204. # [17:51] <iSRAELi> hiz
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  208. # [18:18] <Amgine_> Newb question: If a Place schema object (e.g. AdministrativeArea) contains many other Place objects (e.g. LandmarksOrHistoricalBuildings), it's normal practice to put put the latter inside the former's container?
  209. # [18:24] * Joins: bnvk (~bnvk@67-5-163-45.ptld.qwest.net)
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  212. # [19:07] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@38.122.109.194)
  213. # [19:07] <JonathanNeal> hello!
  214. # [19:09] <iSRAELi> hi :)
  215. # [19:09] <iSRAELi> JonathanNeal i heard you are one of the owners of Twitter?
  216. # [19:09] <JonathanNeal> This is exciting news.
  217. # [19:10] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/ikhlaq16 :: http://www.hige-g.com/ap_iphone/_en/hcalendar.html
  218. # [19:12] <JonathanNeal> When I use "p-name", do I still need to use "fn" and "n"?
  219. # [19:14] <iSRAELi> mf2?
  220. # [19:16] <JonathanNeal> mf(latest)
  221. # [19:16] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  222. # [19:16] * ChanServ sets mode: +o tantek
  223. # [19:16] <iSRAELi> well i have never used mf2 so i guess this is it
  224. # [19:17] <JonathanNeal> That explains why my mf2 cards were not validating.
  225. # [19:20] <JonathanNeal> anyone well versed in http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2 around?
  226. # [19:24] <JonathanNeal> Has anyone written an mf2 parser? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
  227. # [19:26] * Parts: @adactio (~adactio@213.123.197.180)
  228. # [19:40] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  229. # [19:40] <tommorris> JonathanNeal: you want either gjones or barnabywalters. ;)
  230. # [19:42] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  231. # [19:43] <JonathanNeal> thanks tommorris :)
  232. # [19:52] <@tantek> good morning
  233. # [19:52] <@tantek> hi JonathanNeal
  234. # [19:52] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - clearly you've pointed out that the microformats2-parsing page needs to list or link to current parsing implementations
  235. # [19:53] <JonathanNeal> I'm not trying to say anything cryptically. Making assumptions only gets me in trouble. :)
  236. # [19:53] <JonathanNeal> I was just wondering, since there was an outline of what the parsing would look like.
  237. # [19:53] <JonathanNeal> Which, btw, I think I got wrong when compared to my example from last night https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478
  238. # [19:54] <JonathanNeal> I couldn't find documentation to explain how the arrays worked, so I had neglected to include them, and I wasn't sure why the h- wasn't dropped in the JSON example, but all the u-, p-, etc were dropped.
  239. # [19:55] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=50471&oldid=50448&rcid=68144 * Tantek * (+181) implementations mini section
  240. # [19:57] <JonathanNeal> Nice, tried http://microformat2-node.jit.su/
  241. # [19:57] <JonathanNeal> the inclusion or exclusion of the prefix is so weird.
  242. # [19:58] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - simple rule, it's dropped for properties.
  243. # [19:59] <@tantek> since the prefixes for properties are simply directives for different parsing
  244. # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> Why are all the strings wrapped in arrays?
  245. # [19:59] <@tantek> because every property is potentially multivalued
  246. # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> example of when it would be?
  247. # [19:59] <@tantek> your example - multiple phone numbers "tel"
  248. # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478#file-readme-rendered-json - this was the output from the node parser.
  249. # [20:00] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - I'm still a bit confused by what you were trying to do with all the nesting
  250. # [20:00] <@tantek> in: https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478
  251. # [20:01] <JonathanNeal> you mean the nesting of p-given-name and p-family-name in p-name?
  252. # [20:01] <@tantek> no that one made sense
  253. # [20:01] <@tantek> since it's "common knowledge" that a person's name typically contains their family name and given name
  254. # [20:01] <@tantek> however
  255. # [20:01] <@tantek> the next one
  256. # [20:01] <JonathanNeal> p-role ?
  257. # [20:01] <@tantek> what reasoning led you to markup things like that?
  258. # [20:02] <@tantek> the only bit of that that seems to make sense for me
  259. # [20:02] <@tantek> is: <x class="p-organization-name">United States of America</x>
  260. # [20:02] <JonathanNeal> For his role, I had used "category"
  261. # [20:02] <@tantek> how is "President" an organization-unit?
  262. # [20:02] <JonathanNeal> I have no idea, that section was made based on conversations and not my own sense.
  263. # [20:02] <JonathanNeal> I'll mark it up like I would.
  264. # [20:03] <@tantek> why the nesting structure in the first place?
  265. # [20:03] <@tantek> what are you trying to accomplish?
  266. # [20:03] <@tantek> you have to have a reason for each tag, otherwise, leave it out
  267. # [20:04] <JonathanNeal> https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478#file-readme-html
  268. # [20:04] <@tantek> why all 3 x elements in <x><x></x><x></x></x> ? what's their purpose?
  269. # [20:04] <JonathanNeal> this is how i would have marked it up.
  270. # [20:04] <JonathanNeal> I use <x> when I'm putting together an example, to clarify that the element name doesn't matter.
  271. # [20:04] <@tantek> ok - for organization-name, use the more broadly use "org" instead
  272. # [20:04] <JonathanNeal> to just remove it from the equation.
  273. # [20:05] <@tantek> organization-name only makes sense if you feel a need to separate organization-name from organization-unit etc.
  274. # [20:05] <@tantek> they're parts of the "org"
  275. # [20:05] <JonathanNeal> Originally I had "Executive Branch"
  276. # [20:05] <@tantek> just as "given-name" and "family-name" and the other name related properties make sense as part of "name"
  277. # [20:06] <@tantek> I guess part of the problem is that I don't understand the context of this information
  278. # [20:06] <JonathanNeal> I'm making a mf2 card for the President of the United States :)
  279. # [20:06] <@tantek> is this a phonebook entry? a bio page? an example in an article?
  280. # [20:06] <@tantek> do you have a photo of his business card to markup as text? ;)
  281. # [20:06] <@tantek> are you are just making up what his business card would look like?
  282. # [20:07] <@tantek> or is the purpose to write an illustrative example for h-card? (similar to the illustrative example here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Properties )
  283. # [20:08] <JonathanNeal> http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-obama and http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/write-or-call
  284. # [20:08] <JonathanNeal> to answer your question, I'd pick: illustrative example
  285. # [20:08] <@tantek> ok that helps a lot
  286. # [20:09] <JonathanNeal> I tinker to learn.
  287. # [20:09] <JonathanNeal> Would it help distract you less if I used divs?
  288. # [20:11] <@tantek> no - the question is more about why include some text content and not others etc.
  289. # [20:11] <@tantek> because that's typically a design decision for a page, not a markup/technical question
  290. # [20:13] * Quits: mkowens_ (~mkowens@c-71-198-61-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Quit.)
  291. # [20:13] <Loqi> [[Small self esteem, badge wearing kama'aina ( with authorities badges and a top secret agenda]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Small_self_esteem%2C_badge_wearing_kama%27aina_%28_with_authorities_badges_and_a_top_secret_agenda&rcid=68145 * Ecelmer17 * (+10865) A damaged socialite living in beverly slopes on revenue he received through separating the rich and famous possesse
  292. # [20:14] <JonathanNeal> I still don't know how to markup notes https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478
  293. # [20:15] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * TomMorris * deleted "[[Small self esteem, badge wearing kama'aina ( with authorities badges and a top secret agenda]]": Vandalism
  294. # [20:15] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * TomMorris * blocked [[User:Ecelmer17]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  295. # [20:16] <tommorris> p-note isn't an actual property though
  296. # [20:16] <@tantek> tommorris - it is, on h-card
  297. # [20:16] <tommorris> ah, weird
  298. # [20:16] <@tantek> why weird?
  299. # [20:17] <tommorris> I just ran the HTML that JonathanNeal posted through the node parser and it's emitting note just fine
  300. # [20:18] <JonathanNeal> tommorris: yea, i would like to associate it with individual entries, but i'm refraining from nesting it in the p-tel
  301. # [20:18] <JonathanNeal> as not to frustrate tantek just yet
  302. # [20:18] <JonathanNeal> so the parsing is good, i just don't know how to mark up valid notes for individual items yet.
  303. # [20:18] <tommorris> the address should probably be separately nested, no?
  304. # [20:18] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - thanks for the whitehouse.gov URLs - given that context, if you're trying to make them into illustrative examples, just take their existing text literally and mark it up.
  305. # [20:18] <@tantek> that way you're working as close to the real world content as possible
  306. # [20:19] <@tantek> rather than introducing your own biases
  307. # [20:20] <JonathanNeal> if i take out my own biases, I don't learn how to note up specific properties.
  308. # [20:21] <@tantek> your own biases in terms of modifications to the text
  309. # [20:21] <@tantek> by not messing with the text, you focus purely on learning how to markup specific properties
  310. # [20:21] <@tantek> rather than copy-editing foo
  311. # [20:23] <JonathanNeal> updated the example to reflect the nesting, tommorris https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478
  312. # [20:23] * Quits: chiui (~chiui@2001:5c0:1502:9200:bca4:698b:e5ea:de4b) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  313. # [20:25] <tommorris> that's not giving the expected response. "tel": ["202-456-1111 Please don't call after 6pm. He's having dinner with his family."]
  314. # [20:25] <Loqi> 202-456-1111: Washington, DC.
  315. # [20:25] <@tantek> why is the note inside the tel?
  316. # [20:25] <tommorris> handy Loqi ;)
  317. # [20:25] * Loqi is done
  318. # [20:25] <tommorris> tantek: presumably because JonathanNeal wishes to add a note about the telephone number. sadly won't work. ;)
  319. # [20:26] <tommorris> the parser is parsing it according to spec
  320. # [20:26] <@tantek> jonathanneal - in general properties don't have any structure in microformats2
  321. # [20:26] <@tantek> the only thing that has structure are microformats themselves
  322. # [20:26] <tommorris> inside a p- elem, more p- elems are just going to have their text stitched together
  323. # [20:26] <@tantek> microformats have a set of properties
  324. # [20:26] <@tantek> *flat* set of properties
  325. # [20:27] <@tantek> you can re-use the text of one property inside another by overlapping their markup
  326. # [20:27] <@tantek> but the parsed result is still always a flat set of properties
  327. # [20:27] <JonathanNeal> okay
  328. # [20:27] <@tantek> clearly you're trying to annotate a phone number with some structure
  329. # [20:27] <JonathanNeal> yes, i am
  330. # [20:27] <@tantek> but there is no "phone number" microformat
  331. # [20:27] <@tantek> therefore there's no way to markup a phone number with structure
  332. # [20:28] <@tantek> (yet)
  333. # [20:28] * Quits: Amgine_ (~amgine@wikinews/Amgine) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  334. # [20:28] <JonathanNeal> i figured everything could have a note.
  335. # [20:28] <tommorris> yeah, that's the sort of thing one might do in XML with attributes... but you can't do that with microformats. (trust me, I've tried to do similar things with RDF and it's very annoying that I can't.)
  336. # [20:28] <JonathanNeal> be it a structure or a property.
  337. # [20:28] <@tantek> if you think there should be, you can start documenting real world examples of phone numbers published with structures
  338. # [20:28] * Joins: Amgine_ (~amgine@wikinews/Amgine)
  339. # [20:28] <@tantek> tommorris - no that's a misconception about XML
  340. # [20:28] <@tantek> never put human readable content in attributes - that's a misuse of attributes
  341. # [20:29] <tommorris> Indeed. It's bad, but it's doable. ;)
  342. # [20:29] <@tantek> it's syntactically doable, but it's bad use of XML
  343. # [20:30] <@tantek> of markup in general
  344. # [20:30] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - the text you gave "Please don't call after 6pm. He's having dinner with his family." is something you made up - therefore is not a real world example
  345. # [20:30] <@tantek> re: "everything could have a note" - every microformat *could* have a p-note property
  346. # [20:31] <@tantek> or put another way, a property (e.g. tel) is not a "thing" (in terms of every*thing*), a property is an aspect of a thing (a microformat, like a contact, an h-card)
  347. # [20:31] <@tantek> if you want to make a property into a thing itself, you have to nest microformats
  348. # [20:31] <@tantek> e.g. the author of a blog post entry is both a property (p-author) and can be further structured as a contact (h-card)
  349. # [20:32] <tommorris> the specific use case... well, there's some use online
  350. # [20:32] <tommorris> http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/jhurley2/ "Text if possible, and please don't call after 8:30 PM."
  351. # [20:32] <@tantek> another example, the venue for an event is both a p-location, and can be marked up as an h-card: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#h-event_location_h-card
  352. # [20:32] <@tantek> that's how you structure properties
  353. # [20:33] <tommorris> A google search for "phone number" AND "please don't call" gives you a fair few. ;)
  354. # [20:33] <@tantek> tommorris - you're welcome to start http://microformats.org/wiki/tel-examples with that research ;)
  355. # [20:33] <@tantek> see guidance here: http://microformats.org/wiki/examples for how to start a *-examples page
  356. # [20:34] <@tantek> This is part of our culture in microformats, if you believe in some form of markup use-case enough, then prove it so by documenting the research on the wiki. if that's too much work, then the use-case must not have been that important.
  357. # [20:34] <@tantek> and thus we shouldn't bother coming up with markup for it.
  358. # [20:35] <@tantek> simpler/smaller being better by default.
  359. # [20:36] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@100.155.125.91.dyn.plus.net)
  360. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> I have a list with instructions like that, but it's not on the web.
  361. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> It's a word document sent my way.
  362. # [20:38] <JonathanNeal> It got me thinking about microformats, because everyone kept emailing everyone to update their number or add a note about when to call their office line or what have you.
  363. # [20:38] * Joins: chiui (~chiui@dynamic-adsl-84-223-227-230.clienti.tiscali.it)
  364. # [20:38] <@tantek> indeed - if you keep your h-card on the web, people can simply subscribe to that URL and get updated when you update it
  365. # [20:39] <@tantek> instead of spamming everyone with email
  366. # [20:39] <tommorris> JonathanNeal: so, publish it on the web. Perhaps use p-note to start publishing it. then add it to the wiki ;)
  367. # [20:39] <@tantek> tommorris - using p-note to publish it won't help
  368. # [20:39] <@tantek> because as noted - p-tel is itself not a microformat
  369. # [20:40] <@tantek> if you want to structure a property, you have to make it into a microformat itself, like the location of an event: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#h-event_location_h-card
  370. # [20:40] <JonathanNeal> In the case of <div class="p-tel"><div>202-456-1111</div>… is there a classname i could throw on that div child div, or am I marking it up the best I can?
  371. # [20:40] <tommorris> yep, but you could put p-note on the microformat. the point is that it's part of the process. if microformats doesn't do what you currently want it to, start publishing anyway.
  372. # [20:41] <tommorris> JonathanNeal: you should put p-tel on the element that contains only the phone number itself and nothing else
  373. # [20:41] <@tantek> right why are you using two divs?
  374. # [20:41] <JonathanNeal> "start publishing anyway" … that worries me … based on my experience with other web "standards".
  375. # [20:41] <@tantek> when one would do?
  376. # [20:41] <JonathanNeal> tommorris: precisely, but i want to signify that the note belongs to the number.
  377. # [20:41] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - indeed, "start publishing anyway" means more like just use your own class names - not microformats per se, when experimenting with extra semantics.
  378. # [20:41] <@tantek> see poshformats
  379. # [20:42] <@tantek> JonathanNeal did you review the event / location example?
  380. # [20:42] <@tantek> until you review that, you're not going to understand how to structure properties (add a note to a tel)
  381. # [20:42] <Loqi> [[tel-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=tel-examples&rcid=68148 * TomMorris * (+625) starting this off
  382. # [20:42] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/poshformats
  383. # [20:43] <JonathanNeal> tommorris: http://www.geico.com/about/contactus/phone/
  384. # [20:44] <tommorris> incidentally, any communication system that requires communication as to when you are allowed to use it is probably ripe for deprecation... ;)
  385. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> http://www.statefarm.com/about/contact/tollfree.asp "toll free number"
  386. # [20:44] <Amgine_> sync vs. async
  387. # [20:44] <@tantek> tommorris - close - a bit of inverted structure you have there
  388. # [20:45] <JonathanNeal> tommorris: https://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=1120 "Emergency calls", "Nonemergency calls", "for landlords to notify
  389. # [20:45] <JonathanNeal> us of customer changes", etc.
  390. # [20:45] <tommorris> also, did hCard deprecate phone roles etc.? like we used to have home/cell/office etc. has that transitioned over into microformats2 hcard?
  391. # [20:45] <Loqi> [[tel-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=tel-examples&diff=50474&oldid=50473&rcid=68149 * Tantek * (+284) restructure with examples being primary, rather than just to prove one point (note)
  392. # [20:46] <Loqi> [[tel-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=tel-examples&diff=50475&oldid=50474&rcid=68150 * Tantek * (+1) /
  393. # [20:46] <@tantek> tommorris - those were phone "types"
  394. # [20:47] <@tantek> tommorris - when documenting real world examples, the example is primary, and the things the example publishes (e.g. a note etc.) are secondary and should be nested underneath the example
  395. # [20:47] <tommorris> tantek: noted.
  396. # [20:47] <@tantek> the point of researching/documenting examples isn't to prove a need for particular property
  397. # [20:47] <@tantek> but rather to research *what are the needs* for that type of information
  398. # [20:47] <@tantek> so for each example, there should be documentation of what aspects of information are published in each
  399. # [20:48] <@tantek> and then the aspects that are in 80/20 of examples can form the basis of a brainstorm proposal for a microformat
  400. # [20:48] <@tantek> but aspects that are only in a few examples, probably not needed
  401. # [20:48] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@100.155.125.91.dyn.plus.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  402. # [20:49] <Loqi> [[tel-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=tel-examples&diff=50476&oldid=50475&rcid=68151 * Tantek * (+129) part of the process context, see also
  403. # [20:51] * Quits: bnvk (~bnvk@67-5-163-45.ptld.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  404. # [20:51] * Joins: jfranusic (~jfranusic@501folsom.static.monkeybrains.net)
  405. # [20:52] <Loqi> [[tel-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=tel-examples&diff=50477&oldid=50476&rcid=68152 * TomMorris * (+354) adding 192.com
  406. # [20:53] * Joins: bnvk (~bnvk@67-5-163-45.ptld.qwest.net)
  407. # [20:54] <@tantek> tommorris - 192.com just seems like a contact example
  408. # [20:54] <@tantek> not really anything structured about the phone numbers there
  409. # [20:55] <tommorris> yeah, I was hoping to delve through and find if they are doing anything weird with phone numbers
  410. # [20:55] * Quits: jfranusic (~jfranusic@501folsom.static.monkeybrains.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  411. # [20:58] <JonathanNeal> I had all sorts of things I wanted to add notes to.
  412. # [20:58] <JonathanNeal> But I guess … that requires turning every property into a structure.
  413. # [20:58] <JonathanNeal> Which is a bummer.
  414. # [21:04] <Loqi> [[tel-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=tel-examples&diff=50478&oldid=50477&rcid=68153 * Tantek * (+337) tel examples should be specifically about the "tel" not just the enclosing contact, for which we already have hCard
  415. # [21:04] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - why do you want to add notes to all sorts of things? what's the use case?
  416. # [21:05] <@tantek> what kind of existing things that you're publishing on the web have such notes?
  417. # [21:05] <JonathanNeal> a bio page
  418. # [21:09] <JonathanNeal> i'll just take notes in my head on "how to best write things in a way that is sympathetic to the potential future of microformats"
  419. # [21:10] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-2-97-252-240.as13285.net)
  420. # [21:11] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - hopefully you shouldn't have to worry about it upfront like that
  421. # [21:11] <JonathanNeal> ouch, that turned out badly https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478
  422. # [21:11] <@tantek> rather, write things in whatever way best fits what you're trying to display / express
  423. # [21:11] <JonathanNeal> nesting is bad.
  424. # [21:11] <@tantek> and then adapt microformats accordingly
  425. # [21:12] <@tantek> also, do it with a real world example, for yourself first, rather than a hypothetical / illustrative example
  426. # [21:12] <@tantek> you're more likely to produce more meaningful text/markup that way
  427. # [21:13] <@tantek> in my experience, when people do hypothetical / illustrative examples first, they end up making up a bunch of things with assumptions that turn out to not matter in real world examples
  428. # [21:13] <@tantek> nesting in general is confusing to folks (authors), so the less nesting that is required/needed, the better
  429. # [21:13] <@tantek> flatter is better
  430. # [21:13] <@tantek> fewer elements is better
  431. # [21:13] <@tantek> etc.
  432. # [21:15] <JonathanNeal> This will work for me :) https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5080478
  433. # [21:15] <@tantek> lunch time
  434. # [21:15] <JonathanNeal> enjoy. nom nom.
  435. # [21:18] * tommorris adds microformats2 h-card (and some more RDFa) to his site.
  436. # [21:21] * Quits: bnvk (~bnvk@67-5-163-45.ptld.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  437. # [21:21] * Joins: bnvk (~bnvk@67-5-163-45.ptld.qwest.net)
  438. # [21:22] * Joins: jfranusic (~jfranusic@501folsom.static.monkeybrains.net)
  439. # [21:26] * Quits: bnvk (~bnvk@67-5-163-45.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  440. # [21:30] * Joins: eschnou (~eschnou@29.89-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  441. # [21:39] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/webmarketing_dk :: Referencement Google: ADWORDS UTILISE OFFICIELLEMENT LES MICROFORMATS HREVIEW - Seller Rating... http://tinyurl.com/6xzbcv4 #referencement
  442. # [21:42] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/Amand_Yn :: RT @webmarketing_dk: Referencement Google: ADWORDS UTILISE OFFICIELLEMENT LES MICROFORMATS HREVIEW - Seller Rating... http://t.co/JOeylo ...
  443. # [21:54] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@100.155.125.91.dyn.plus.net)
  444. # [22:08] * Quits: chiui (~chiui@dynamic-adsl-84-223-227-230.clienti.tiscali.it) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  445. # [22:12] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  446. # [22:43] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@29.89-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  447. # [22:48] * Joins: bnvk (~bnvk@24-104-79-38-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  448. # [23:10] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-2-97-252-240.as13285.net) (Quit: Back to real life!)
  449. # [23:24] * Quits: csarven (~csarven@178-82-195-94.dynamic.hispeed.ch) (Quit: Leaving.)
  450. # [23:33] <JonathanNeal> Are there recommended extensions for adding a person's Twitter, Facebook, G+?
  451. # [23:34] <@tantek> those are just URLs
  452. # [23:35] <@tantek> no extensions needed
  453. # [23:36] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Link_it_up (and that page in general)
  454. # Session Close: Tue Mar 05 00:00:00 2013

The end :)