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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 27 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191)
  4. # [00:10] * Joins: uf-wiki-visitor (522f5ad3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.47.90.211)
  5. # [00:12] <uf-wiki-visitor> hi all, quick question. Is it appropriate to combine microformat markup with microformat2 for compatibility? e.g. class="h-event vevent"
  6. # [00:26] <@tantek> uf-wiki-visitor: yes absolutely
  7. # [00:26] <gRegorLove> Hi uf-wiki-visitor. I've seen that and the parsers are intended to be backwards compatible, so it shouldn't be a problem. Personally I just use mf2.
  8. # [00:26] <@tantek> in fact it is recomended practice for the main object of the page!
  9. # [00:27] <gRegorLove> Oops
  10. # [00:27] <gRegorLove> Interesting. I didn't know that it was recommended, tantek.
  11. # [00:28] <@tantek> gRegorLove: for legacy consuming search engines that don't yet (AFAIK) consume native uf2
  12. # [00:29] <@tantek> uf-wiki-visitor: here are some examples: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#backward_compatible
  13. # [00:29] <@tantek> uf-wiki-visitor: you can also provide yours here if you'd like folks to take a look at it
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  29. # [01:38] <Vendan> hey tantek, <a href="test">test</a> inside a e-content, should that href be resolved?
  30. # [01:39] <Vendan> for the 'html' part of the e-content
  31. # [01:39] <@tantek> Vendan probably better to use different strings
  32. # [01:39] <@tantek> rather than test/test ;)
  33. # [01:39] <@tantek> but yes implied <base> - that's a great question!
  34. # [01:40] <Vendan> should it be <a href="http://example.org/test">test</a>
  35. # [01:40] <Vendan> according to the current spec, seems it shouldn't
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  38. # [01:40] <@tantek> right - which seems like it could pose problems for use-cases
  39. # [01:41] <@tantek> can you capture it as an issue? /wiki/microformats2-issues
  40. # [01:41] <@tantek> and use a different path other than /test ;)
  41. # [01:41] <@tantek> or different innertext
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  43. # [01:43] <Vendan> logically, I can see where it'd be useful/better that way, and the current microformats tests do expect it
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  45. # [01:43] <Vendan> just doesn't line up with the parsing spec itself
  46. # [01:44] <@tantek> do any of the parsers support that?
  47. # [01:49] <kylewm> I have done it as a post-processing step after mf2py is done
  48. # [01:49] <kylewm> part of mf2util https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/blob/master/mf2util/util.py#L176
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  51. # [02:14] <Loqi> [@jasnell] https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/commits/remove-microformats-examples - 1 commits (http://twtr.io/zsCpM_o5Yo)
  52. # [03:18] * Joins: Tigt (48316a65@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.49.106.101)
  53. # [03:19] <Tigt> pardon me folks, I was wondering if I could ask a few questions about h-feed
  54. # [03:21] <kylewm> of course, Tigt
  55. # [03:23] <Tigt> okay, first one is
  56. # [03:23] <Tigt> Is there some de facto size for its u-photo
  57. # [03:23] <Tigt> or at least some sort of minimum/maximum I should be mindful of
  58. # [03:25] <Tigt> I'm probably going to repurpose one of my shortcut icons in the <head> so it could be anywhere from 16x16 to 192x192
  59. # [03:29] <Tigt> ideally I could point it at an SVG but I doubt things are ready for that yet
  60. # [03:32] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: I don't understand the use-case for u-photo of a h-feed? Are you thinking that readers will use the u-photo?
  61. # [03:33] <Tigt> well, I didn't know myself, but it's on there: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed
  62. # [03:33] <Tigt> I figured it would be used like a favicon mostly
  63. # [03:33] <Tigt> like how feedly marks each feed provider with its own favicon
  64. # [03:34] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: since I doubt any h-feed readers use it that way yet you don't really need to worry about it
  65. # [03:34] <Tigt> that works
  66. # [03:35] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: also photo parsing at the moment does not use the new srcset and source stuff because again, no explicit use-cases
  67. # [03:35] <KartikPrabhu> but once they do, I'm sure your problem will be addresseed
  68. # [03:36] <Tigt> oh it's just a regular old link[rel="shortcut icon"]
  69. # [03:36] <Tigt> so they should be able to follow the href
  70. # [03:37] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: yeah I doubt if current h-feed readers are doing that. But even if they are, I really think they are not using the h-feed>u-photo
  71. # [03:37] <Tigt> my other question is, if I put an h-feed on all pages of my site, with the u-url pointing to the actual location of the feed, is that okay
  72. # [03:37] <Tigt> sort of like how the RSS <link> allows autodiscovery no matter what URL of a site you paste in
  73. # [03:38] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: see https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#partial_feeds for a possible answer though again I doubt if readers are using such an algorithm. Mainly they'll look for rel=feed links on the page
  74. # [03:39] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: on my site I have put the rel=feeds in the nav bar at the bottom which is common to all post pages: https://kartikprabhu.com/
  75. # [03:42] <Tigt> huh, interesting
  76. # [03:43] <Tigt> do mf parsers obey the <noscript> block?
  77. # [03:43] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: good point. I think it varies between parsers unfortunately
  78. # [03:43] <KartikPrabhu> hopefully will be standardized soon
  79. # [03:43] <Tigt> yeah that's what I was worried about
  80. # [03:43] <Tigt> because I can't imagine any of them /do/ run JavaScript
  81. # [03:44] <kylewm> the behavior for parsing <noscript> hasn't been specified explicitly, as far as I know
  82. # [03:44] <kylewm> no, definitely not
  83. # [03:44] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: mf parsers are not supposed to run javascript
  84. # [03:45] <Tigt> sounds about right
  85. # [03:53] <Tigt> okay, if I'm reading this correctly, if I don't have a page with full h-entries on each, I should use a separate u-uid h-feed page?
  86. # [03:55] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: that was the suggestion yes. I don't know if people use it and h-feed readers don't use that I think
  87. # [03:55] <Tigt> I can't say I'm big on making another separate feed file
  88. # [03:56] <Tigt> I'm marking up a webcomic site, so I really don't want to make the home page load each image for UX reasons
  89. # [03:56] <Tigt> so having a full h-entry for each update isn't ideal
  90. # [03:57] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: that is also how RSS works though
  91. # [03:57] <Tigt> but if it's what's got to be done, I'll do it
  92. # [03:57] <Tigt> yeah it's even worse
  93. # [03:58] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: do you expect your readers to use h-feed readers?
  94. # [03:59] <Tigt> oh, no
  95. # [03:59] <kylewm> wait, what's this about u-uid?
  96. # [03:59] <KartikPrabhu> don't worry about pre-mature optimisation. Even current h-feed readers don't use that algorithm
  97. # [03:59] <Tigt> I just figured for those out there using/experimenting with h-feed readers, what good practices I should be following
  98. # [03:59] <KartikPrabhu> kylewm: https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#partial_feeds
  99. # [04:00] <KartikPrabhu> does Woodwind or monocle do this?
  100. # [04:00] <kylewm> well, afaik, Monocle subscribes to whatever URL you give it ... doesn't do feed discovery
  101. # [04:01] <kylewm> and also, Monocle (unlike Ww) fetches each individual permalink in an h-feed, so it's fine if the h-feed is partial
  102. # [04:02] <kylewm> Woodwind does not look for u-uid, but only because I just leanred about it ;)
  103. # [04:02] * aaronpk needs to spend some more time on monocle soon
  104. # [04:05] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: best practices haven't been fully-eshtablished yet because all h-feed readers are still experimental so I would recommend not worrying too much at the moment
  105. # [04:05] <Tigt> good point
  106. # [04:08] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: but your use-case is a good one
  107. # [04:08] <Tigt> oh, for future reference, is there some sort of validator/babelmark equivalent I could test my pages on
  108. # [04:09] <KartikPrabhu> for all microformats?
  109. # [04:09] <Tigt> or just some, I'm not picky
  110. # [04:10] <KartikPrabhu> this does some sort of validation: http://indiewebify.me/ and you can test your markup with parsers from http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Parsers
  111. # [04:10] <Tigt> wonderful, thank you very much
  112. # [04:10] <KartikPrabhu> note not all parsers in that list are the same
  113. # [04:11] <KartikPrabhu> i mean same level of microformat support
  114. # [04:11] <KartikPrabhu> php-mf2 and mf2py are more widely used, though the Go parser also seems good
  115. # [04:12] <Tigt> well, I guess it wouldn't be the web if consumers didn't differ from each other
  116. # [04:12] <KartikPrabhu> yup :)
  117. # [04:12] <KartikPrabhu> but people have been working on a standard suite of tests that parsers will test against so hopefully in the future all of them will be similarly compliant
  118. # [04:13] <Tigt> I'm assuming some of these don't understand mf2
  119. # [04:13] <KartikPrabhu> I think most of them do understand mf2 but maybe not all kinds of properties
  120. # [04:13] <KartikPrabhu> specially newly added/changed parsing rules
  121. # [04:14] <KartikPrabhu> hence I recommended php-mf2 and mf2py and Go , afaik those have been on top of new rules and features
  122. # [04:14] <Tigt> excellent
  123. # [04:16] <Tigt> you've been extraordinarily helpful, thank you so much
  124. # [04:16] <KartikPrabhu> sure thing Tigt
  125. # [04:18] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: also if you want to see how your feeds appear in current h-feed readers here are 2, http://reader.kylewm.com/ https://monocle.p3k.io/
  126. # [04:18] <Tigt> ah, even better
  127. # [04:18] <Vendan> Tigt, note, as much as I like the Go parser (being the author), I'm still implementing parts of the spec, so I wouldn't rely on it just yet :D
  128. # [04:19] <Tigt> noted
  129. # [04:19] <kylewm> Tigt++ thanks for asking good questions, let us know your webcomic when it's up!
  130. # [04:19] <Loqi> Tigt has 1 karma
  131. # [04:19] <Tigt> these sign-ins are the rel=me stuff, right
  132. # [04:19] <kylewm> yes
  133. # [04:20] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: see: http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth
  134. # [04:21] <Tigt> I feel like a traitor using Tumblr for this but baby steps, I guess
  135. # [04:21] <KartikPrabhu> Tigt: yes. baby steps
  136. # [04:21] <KartikPrabhu> babysteps++
  137. # [04:21] <Loqi> babysteps has 1 karma
  138. # [04:21] <kylewm> there are lots of good things about tumblr, particularly if you are using your own domain name
  139. # [04:23] <Tigt> yeah I snagged a pretty good one, just need to make sure I can hold onto it
  140. # [04:23] <Tigt> Tumblr and Cloudflare get into spats every so often
  141. # [04:24] <Tigt> ah, hm
  142. # [04:25] <Tigt> it looks like IndieAuth does not honor HTTP redirects
  143. # [04:25] <Tigt> at least the version Woodwind is using
  144. # [04:26] <KartikPrabhu> hmm I think it does honour permanent redirects 301 or something
  145. # [04:26] <KartikPrabhu> kylewm: ^^
  146. # [04:28] <Tigt> Tumblr's "link pages" functionality might do 302s to prevent caching issues for when the user changes them, then
  147. # [04:28] <Tigt> I'll have to hardcode it in
  148. # [04:28] <Tigt> there we go
  149. # [04:32] <kylewm> where was the 301 that wasn't working?
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  151. # [04:32] <Tigt> it's likely it's not a 301 at all
  152. # [04:33] <Tigt> I changed it, but let me set up another
  153. # [04:36] <Tigt> hm
  154. # [04:36] <Tigt> well it /appears/ to be a 301
  155. # [04:37] <Tigt> http://ti.gt/test
  156. # [04:45] <Tigt> I can set up one that points to an actual rel=me endpoint if you prefer
  157. # [04:46] <Tigt> it also appends this weird PHP session indicator fragment of #_=_
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  159. # [04:51] <Tigt> yet another reason for rel=canonical I guess
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