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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 08 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  35. # Session Close: Mon Jun 08 05:27:36 2015
  36. #
  37. # Session Start: Mon Jun 08 05:27:36 2015
  38. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  40. # [05:28] * Attempting to rejoin channel #microformats
  41. # [05:28] * Rejoined channel #microformats
  42. # [05:28] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki Logs: http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=today'
  43. # [05:28] * Set by tantek!~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net on Mon Aug 12 00:38:23
  44. # [05:28] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  45. # [05:28] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
  46. # [05:53] <Loqi> [@XJINE] 書いた。各フォーマットと比較で書こうと思ったけど、長すぎた。>「microformats について : 利点と欠点」 http://neareal.com/1619/ #HTML #SEO (http://twtr.io/10JRq6kDKW8)
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  79. # [11:39] <Loqi> [@SplashCopy] Are microformats the best #SEO tool that you aren't using? https://www.splashcopywriters.co.uk/blog/microformats-are-they-the-most-underrated-seo-weapon-of-all-time.html (http://twtr.io/10Jwtj_5vyw)
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  81. # [12:13] <Loqi> [@ProjectPeachUK] We've #played with #microformats. Love the #idea of #marking up our #business data to #machines as well as #humans! #biznoticeUK #SMO (http://twtr.io/10JzyYa74Af)
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  85. # [12:56] <Loqi> [@Bobby6740] RT @ProjectPeachUK: We've #played with #microformats. Love the #idea of #marking up our #business data to #machines as well as #humans! #bi… (http://twtr.io/10K3pbEawDs)
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  91. # [15:28] <Loqi> [@ProjectPeachUK] We've #played with #microformats. Love the #idea of #marking up our #business data to #machines as well as #humans! #JS #fpsbs #think (http://twtr.io/10KHWMn48PV)
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  93. # [15:29] <Loqi> [@InfusedReTweets] RT @ProjectPeachUK: We've #played with #microformats. Love the #idea of #marking up our #business data to #machines as well as #humans! #JS… (http://twtr.io/10KHcEq1xc5)
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  99. # [16:03] <Loqi> [@GraphicInfusion] RT @ProjectPeachUK: We've #played with #microformats. Love the #idea of #marking up our #business data to #machines as well as #humans! #JS… (http://twtr.io/10KLf_D5Md8)
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  119. # [17:22] <Loqi> [@JRs_partsonline] RT @ProjectPeachUK: We've #played with #microformats. Love the #idea of #marking up our #business data to #machines as well as #humans! #JS… (http://twtr.io/10KTke96hzC)
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  126. # [18:34] <tommorris> funny stuff. https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312
  127. # [18:34] <Loqi> tommorris: tantek left you a message on 6/1 at 5:16pm: your comments would be welcome here too: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#drop_alternates_collection_and_include_them_in_rels
  128. # [18:34] <Loqi> [@amazingmap] Amazingly comprehensive map of every country in the world that uses the MMDDYYYY format https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312/photo/1 (http://twtr.io/zXqHgD71UY)
  129. # [18:35] <aaronpk> hahaha
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  144. # [21:18] <kylewm> do y'all know why h-cite recommend p-content instead of e-content on http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite#Properties? I would like to parse out reposts with markup and images from acegiak.net
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  146. # [21:23] <gRegorLove> Perhaps because the simplest case is to cite just the text, sans markup. The example given there is "short text notes"
  147. # [21:24] <@tantek> I suppose the question there is whether a repost should be using h-cite at all
  148. # [21:24] <@tantek> since a repost is intended as *post* of the original content
  149. # [21:30] <@tantek> kylewm: that is, asking for e-content is solving the wrong problem IMO - it may be expedient, but it's not actually helping the markup be correct
  150. # [21:31] <kylewm> I've gone through a couple iterations of my own markup with reposts actually
  151. # [21:32] <kylewm> right now i have an u-repost-of h-cite INSIDE the e-content of the post itself
  152. # [21:32] <kylewm> that way you can include the permalink of the original post as well as the url of your repost
  153. # [21:32] <kylewm> e.g. https://kylewm.com/2015/06/repost-of-russell-keith-magee-cooking-gaming-humor
  154. # [21:34] <@tantek> that actually makes more sense
  155. # [21:34] <@tantek> than e-content on h-cite
  156. # [21:35] <Loqi> [@ronaldwidha] So how many format does a publisher need to support now, Apple News, HTML, RSS, Newsstand EPUB, Facebook Instant Articles, microformats (http://twtr.io/10KqXv5qhuw)
  157. # [21:37] <kylewm> (I have both right now... so like h-entry > e-content > u-repost-of h-cite > e-content
  158. # [21:37] <kylewm> )
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  160. # [21:40] <@tantek> that's e-content *inside* h-cite, not e-content *on* h-cite
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  163. # [22:02] <glennjones> KevinMarks: Could you have a quick look at the 4 issues aginst your test changes https://github.com/microformats/tests/issues - they are all to do with when to trim whitespaces. I am happy to make corrections just want known if you think I am right or not
  164. # [22:02] <Loqi> glennjones: KevinMarks left you a message 6 days ago: said text was OK as a single string, but kyle's issue of pointing to the same URL twice may suggest we need an array. Are there in the wild exampels fo linking to the same URL wiht multiple types? I think that is contrived, but linking to the same URL with multiple texts is quite plausible
  165. # [22:05] <KevinMarks> reading now - I thought trimming whitespace was expected in general, but I may have over-interpreted
  166. # [22:09] <glennjones> As far as I can see its only mention one on the parsing page in the “implied name rules” ie “drop leading & trailing white-space from…”
  167. # [22:09] <KevinMarks> I think we were going witht he tenor of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#whitespace_collapsing_revisited rather than spec update
  168. # [22:10] <KevinMarks> IMO, strip leading/traing universally is always good, and collapse interior whitespace in implied name makes sense
  169. # [22:10] <KevinMarks> but need more votes
  170. # [22:10] <@tantek> hmm - KevinMarks that issue doesn't make much sense
  171. # [22:10] <@tantek> examples are both incorrect and theoretical
  172. # [22:11] <@tantek> so it is "premature to say we are going with the tenor of"
  173. # [22:11] <KevinMarks> "trim leading/trailing" is consensus so far
  174. # [22:12] <@tantek> sorry - example is not broken, just confused where the p-name was
  175. # [22:13] <@tantek> KevinMarks: and white-space collapsing in general for implied names
  176. # [22:13] <KevinMarks> I cna switch to these examples if you prefer
  177. # [22:13] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/hReview-aggregate
  178. # [22:14] <@tantek> would be preferable since I don't even know of any h-review-aggregate posts yet
  179. # [22:15] <glennjones> I have add it as an option to my parser just in case we move to all property text at some stage, but at moment I am trying to get the test to match current rules
  180. # [22:17] <glennjones> The test are a real mixture of old real world examples, a few taken from wiki examples and a hand full made up to help parser authors
  181. # [22:20] <glennjones> Happy to see them replaced over time with indieweb patterns of use, but I need to get the current set in working order first
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  183. # [22:26] <@tantek> glennjones - get the current set in working order first makes sense
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  185. # [22:29] <glennjones> KevinMarks: you OK with me updating your changes? I known you must of put a lot of time into the pull request.
  186. # [22:30] <KevinMarks> Is there any pushback from anyone on leading/trailing stripping for p- properties?
  187. # [22:31] <KevinMarks> 'cos I'd rather make that 1 line change to the parsing spec at least
  188. # [22:31] <@tantek> did you implement that?
  189. # [22:32] <@tantek> and what about implied-name whitespace normalizing?
  190. # [22:32] <KevinMarks> yes, implemented in mf2py
  191. # [22:32] <KevinMarks> glenn has implied whitespace behind a flag I think?
  192. # [22:33] <KevinMarks> mf2py doesn't have implied whitespace normalising yet
  193. # [22:33] <@tantek> glenn what is your opinion of trim leading/trailing whitespace on p-* properties?
  194. # [22:34] <@tantek> KevinMarks: right now we don't really have consensus - we have lack of opinions
  195. # [22:34] <glennjones> Yes I have it not just p-* but all properties - but yes behind a falg switch off by default
  196. # [22:34] <@tantek> the only people agreeing explicitly are you (proposer of issue/solution), and me (spec editor)
  197. # [22:34] <KevinMarks> glenn didn't vote, but agreed in prose
  198. # [22:34] <@tantek> would prefer to have at least one more parser dev opinion
  199. # [22:34] <@tantek> interesting re: for all properties
  200. # [22:35] <KevinMarks> hm
  201. # [22:35] <@tantek> glennjones, could you explain why "all properties" is better than just for p-* ? (honestly curious)
  202. # [22:35] <KevinMarks> I think I wanted it for dt too
  203. # [22:35] <@tantek> or is it easier to implement? or?
  204. # [22:36] <@tantek> KevinMarks: proposal in the wiki that you and I +1 is " keep as is but have mf2 parser trim leading/trailing whitespace" which does not limit to p-* properties
  205. # [22:37] <kylewm> is there ever any such thing like "first name: <span class="p-name">Kyle </span> last name: <span class="p-name">Mahan</span>"
  206. # [22:38] <@tantek> kylewm: hopefully not - for many reasons
  207. # [22:38] <kylewm> OK
  208. # [22:38] <@tantek> e.g. should be more like "given name: <span class="p-give-name">Kyle </span> family name: <span class="p-family-name">Mahan</span>"
  209. # [22:39] <kylewm> I can +1 stripping leading/trailing whitespace for all properties, but I agree with Kevin's comment that ot dpesm
  210. # [22:39] <kylewm> bah
  211. # [22:39] <kylewm> that it doesn't help with our test case failures
  212. # [22:39] <KevinMarks> http://www.unmung.com/?html=+%3Cspan+class%3D%22h-test%22%3E%3Cspan+class%3D%22p-name%22%3EKyle+%3C%2Fspan%3E+last+name%3A+%3Cspan+class%3D%22p-name%22%3EMahan%3C%2Fspan%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E&pretty=on
  213. # [22:39] <kylewm> all properties except maybe e-content
  214. # [22:39] <kylewm> e-*
  215. # [22:39] <@tantek> well if we can at least get that resolved we can move forward with spec edit and implementation updates
  216. # [22:39] <@tantek> why not e-* content as well?
  217. # [22:39] <glennjones> I think I did across all properties just to safe guard against me adding leading/trailing single spaces by mistake. Not sure I work out all the possible impacts, but it was how my parser has work for last two years with any noticalbe problem
  218. # [22:39] <@tantek> all the same arguments apply - in terms of having to put markup on separate lines from the thing being marked up
  219. # [22:40] <KevinMarks> right, the <pre> case in e-content would be inside it
  220. # [22:40] <kylewm> <pre> -- that's what i meant rather than e-content
  221. # [22:40] <kylewm> thanks KevinMarks
  222. # [22:40] <KevinMarks> if it's in <pre> it shouldn't be parsed as html
  223. # [22:41] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-102-39.public.wayport.net)
  224. # [22:41] <KevinMarks> right?
  225. # [22:42] <glennjones> Would you trim the value part of e-* output?
  226. # [22:42] <KevinMarks> I meant if you had <div class="e-content">\n<pre>\n\nhello\n</pre></div> you are ok losing the \n before the <pre>
  227. # [22:43] <@tantek> KevinMarks: more likely that that \n is extra from the publishing system that you have no control over
  228. # [22:44] <KevinMarks> yes exactly
  229. # [22:44] * Joins: elux (~peter@206.223.191.50)
  230. # [22:44] <@tantek> thus you want to get rid of it
  231. # [22:44] <@tantek> since it's not from the author
  232. # [22:44] <@tantek> if you really must include an extra return like that, you can
  233. # [22:44] <@tantek> so I'm leaning towards glennjones position of all properties
  234. # [22:45] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65047&oldid=65042&rcid=101424 * Kylewm * (+205) /* whitespace collapsing revisited */ +1 leading/trailing
  235. # [22:45] <KevinMarks> I think so
  236. # [22:45] <@tantek> bbiab
  237. # [22:45] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
  238. # [22:46] <kylewm> KevinMarks: and did you see my last comment on https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/pull/46#issuecomment-109860488
  239. # [22:47] <KevinMarks> maybe I was accidentally getting the crappy built-in parser
  240. # [22:47] <KevinMarks> are you running on 2.x or 3.x?
  241. # [22:48] <KevinMarks> oh you said 2.7
  242. # [22:48] <kylewm> i tried both
  243. # [22:48] <kylewm> i got fewer failures on 3.4, but the number of failures was consistent with/without unmung
  244. # [22:49] <kylewm> (i'm intrigued/concerned why 3.4 is getting ~10 fewer failing tests than 2.7, but haven't looked into it yet)
  245. # [22:49] <KevinMarks> I'll adda check fro which parser is being used, as I think we want html.parser to DIAF
  246. # [22:51] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-102-39.public.wayport.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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  248. # [22:52] * Joins: glennjones_ (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net)
  249. # [22:53] <KevinMarks> there isn't a "UNICODE" feature in bs4
  250. # [22:53] <KevinMarks> can I tell whcih is being used?
  251. # [22:54] * Quits: benborges (~benborges@2a02:a03f:1616:6b00:8e73:6eff:fe75:52ef) (Remote host closed the connection)
  252. # [22:55] * Quits: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  253. # [22:55] * glennjones_ is now known as glennjones
  254. # [22:57] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-102-39.public.wayport.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  255. # [22:59] <kylewm> which parser?
  256. # [22:59] <kylewm> um, not that I know of
  257. # [22:59] <kylewm> they go to great pains to hide that from you
  258. # [23:04] <kylewm> KevinMarks: i don't think html.parser should have a different result unicode-wise though, does it??
  259. # [23:06] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@14.43-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  260. # [23:07] <KevinMarks> well, empirically i was seeing a different result
  261. # [23:11] <kylewm> with python 2.7.6 and html.parser I get 64 failures with and without unmung :/
  262. # [23:11] <kylewm> and parsed strings do appear to be unicode
  263. # [23:11] * Quits: Zegnat (~zegnat@78-69-211-20-no68.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: off to bed)
  264. # [23:11] <kylewm> what is the different result you were getting?
  265. # [23:12] <KevinMarks> if I change unmung(s) to return s I get 193 failures
  266. # [23:13] <KevinMarks> AssertionError: value='h-card'; type=<type 'str'> etc
  267. # [23:13] <kylewm> weeeeird
  268. # [23:14] <kylewm> what python version?
  269. # [23:15] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  270. # [23:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o tantek
  271. # [23:15] <KevinMarks> 2.7.6
  272. # [23:16] <KevinMarks> how do I ask BeautifulSoup what it is doing parser wise?
  273. # [23:19] * Quits: netweb (~netweb@unaffiliated/netweb) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  274. # [23:19] <KevinMarks> oh weird
  275. # [23:19] * Joins: netweb (~netweb@CPE-121-220-11-216.lnse1.win.bigpond.net.au)
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  277. # [23:19] * Joins: netweb (~netweb@unaffiliated/netweb)
  278. # [23:19] <KevinMarks> if I invoke it wil lxml I get those errors
  279. # [23:21] * Quits: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: glennjones)
  280. # [23:21] <kylewm> oh huh, yeah it's possible i was using lxml ... really thought i was not though
  281. # [23:22] <kylewm> well... we can pick a parser to go with for the test cases without limiting the parsers that you can use in general use, maybe
  282. # [23:22] <KevinMarks> no, it's only if I use lxml I get the erros
  283. # [23:22] <KevinMarks> with html.parser and html5lib I don't
  284. # [23:22] * Joins: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net)
  285. # [23:22] <kylewm> that's what i mean, i thought i was getting them with html5lib, but it's possible i had lxml on the path and didn't realize it
  286. # [23:23] <kylewm> and now i can' treproduce with html5lib
  287. # [23:23] * Quits: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net) (Client Quit)
  288. # [23:24] <kylewm> bbiab
  289. # [23:24] <KevinMarks> I mean I get missing unicode with lxml and not with html.parser or html5lib
  290. # [23:24] <KevinMarks> so i wonder if I have some bad lxml version
  291. # [23:29] <KevinMarks> no, lxml is doing it on purpose: "In Python 2, lxml's API returns byte strings for plain ASCII text values, be it for tag names or text in Element content."
  292. # [23:31] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  293. # [23:32] <@tantek> in general if there are problems with using html5lib we really should work on resolving them rather than avoiding using html5lib
  294. # [23:32] <KevinMarks> no the problem is with lxml
  295. # [23:32] <kylewm> sorry i was being dense, KevinMarks
  296. # [23:32] <KevinMarks> if I replace unmung(s) with unicode(s) I get happy results
  297. # [23:33] <KevinMarks> I do get different numbers of fails with the 3 parsers though
  298. # [23:34] <kylewm> ok same results here with lxml
  299. # [23:34] <KevinMarks> 58 vs 61 vs 64
  300. # [23:34] <KevinMarks> which says to me we should test with all 3 if possible
  301. # [23:42] * Quits: chiui (~chiui@2001:470:71:41b:863a:4bff:fe19:60c4) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  302. # [23:42] <kylewm> sounds right, sadly
  303. # [23:42] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-102-39.public.wayport.net)
  304. # [23:44] <KevinMarks> apple adopts schema and ogp https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/releasenotes/General/WhatsNewIniOS/Articles/iOS9.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40016198-DontLinkElementID_2
  305. # [23:44] * Joins: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net)
  306. # [23:47] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-102-39.public.wayport.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  307. # [23:48] <@tantek> KevinMarks: interesting that they're looking at such structured information - that's perhaps a good chance to get them to look at adding microformats2 support
  308. # [23:48] <@tantek> do we know anyone there that would be good to ask about that?
  309. # [23:48] <KevinMarks> should we ask hober?
  310. # [23:48] <KevinMarks> not sure who is on the OS side
  311. # [23:49] <@tantek> hober would be a good start
  312. # [23:50] <@tantek> also interesting that their example used recipe
  313. # [23:54] <@tantek> and omits instructions
  314. # [23:58] * Quits: kez (~quassel@inet2.evalesco.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  315. # [23:58] * Joins: kez (~quassel@chello080109023159.2.14.vie.surfer.at)
  316. # Session Close: Tue Jun 09 00:00:01 2015

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