/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2014-11-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 25 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #testing
  3. # [00:01] <jgraham> zcorpan_: It's MIT licensed, but you can't used W3C trademarks with derivatives (to do that you have to use the W3C testsuite license)
  4. # [00:02] <zcorpan_> then i guess it's ok
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  7. # [00:06] <jgraham> Is it a problem in this case?
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  11. # [00:34] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] inexorabletash opened pull request #1411: IndexedDB: Skip keypath tests for non-cloneable values (master...inexorabletash/key_invalid) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1411
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  30. # [02:54] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] zqzhang closed pull request #1411: IndexedDB: Skip keypath tests for non-cloneable values (master...inexorabletash/key_invalid) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1411
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  33. # [02:54] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] zqzhang pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/ee229200b703...8021caabeea3
  34. # [02:54] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master b578766 Joshua Bell: Skip keypath tests for non-cloneable values
  35. # [02:54] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 8021caa Zhiqiang Zhang: Merge pull request #1411 from inexorabletash/inexorabletash/key_invalid...
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  60. # [10:35] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] jgraham closed pull request #1410: Work around buggy gecko behaviour causing a race condition in resource-t... (master...resource_timing_3) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1410
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  72. # [13:59] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger deleted resource_timing_3 at f0d633f: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/f0d633f
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  87. # [17:05] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] zcorpan opened pull request #1412: Workers cleanup (master...workers-cleanup) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1412
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  90. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: now that jgraham reviewed and merged your open PRs I guess it's necessary for you to write some more
  91. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> fill the void
  92. # [17:16] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: what, where? on html5lib-tests?
  93. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Or wpt
  94. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> oh what were those critic tests that jgraham reviewed?
  95. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> oh, html5lib
  96. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Those were both html5lib-tests
  97. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> yeah well those don't count toward your quota
  98. # [17:19] <gsnedders> I have tons open on html5lib-python, and none on wpt (and haven't for ages)
  99. # [17:19] <Ms2ger> You should ;)
  100. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> there you go
  101. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> yeah
  102. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Bah, working on trying to improve the state-of-the-art test generation is more fun!
  103. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> there's clearly an imbalance there you need to correct
  104. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Because then I can automate away my obligations to you guys. ;P
  105. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: what you're saying is that you really want to write a framework
  106. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: like, for what anne and jgraham are talking about over on #whatwg
  107. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> automation
  108. # [17:21] <gsnedders> nah, I just want to auto-generate all the automated testharness.js tests from a formal definition of the DOM
  109. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> oh god
  110. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> that sounds a like computer-science research project
  111. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> not science allowed here
  112. # [17:22] <gsnedders> That's what I do with my spare time nowadays, research projects! :)
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  114. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> what is the "spare time" idea you speak of
  115. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> I spend my spare time procrastinating
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  117. # [17:30] <darobin> gsnedders: do you mean replace the idlharness tests with ones actually generated?
  118. # [17:32] <gsnedders> darobin: replace ALL THE TESTS!
  119. # [17:32] <darobin> all the bloody DOM tests?
  120. # [17:32] <gsnedders> darobin: like, auto-generate a testsuite that has total coverage of all possible branches in the DOM spec.
  121. # [17:33] <darobin> okay, that sounds like madness
  122. # [17:33] <gsnedders> Yes.
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  124. # [17:33] <gsnedders> I aim high with most of my spare-time projects. :)
  125. # [17:33] <darobin> generating the idlharness tests to disk is both possible and useful, and tobie will give you chocolate for it too
  126. # [17:33] <darobin> s/aim/am/
  127. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> jgraham: shouldn't the wptrunner requirements.txt file specify "sslutils" (+whatever version)
  128. # [17:35] <tobie> true story
  129. # [17:35] <darobin> tobie: regarding your plan to ask on #freenode, no one seems to care and people are talking like they do in kiddies IRC channels
  130. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> jgraham: for PR #45 I mean
  131. # [17:35] <darobin> gsnedders: note that tobie has access to nice chocolate, too
  132. # [17:35] <darobin> just sayin'
  133. # [17:35] <tobie> darobin: well, sorry. That worked for me every single time under 5 minutes
  134. # [17:35] <darobin> tobie: heh
  135. # [17:35] <jgraham> darobin: Swiss? Are you sure? Maybe they only export the bad stuff
  136. # [17:35] <tobie> darobin: you sure you didn't get a pm?
  137. # [17:36] <darobin> tobie: it's okay, it's only shepazy left no
  138. # [17:36] <darobin> now
  139. # [17:36] * darobin steps carefully back from the chocolate debate
  140. # [17:36] <darobin> tobie: no PM
  141. # [17:36] <tobie> oh, boy, wtf is up with that channel!?
  142. # [17:37] <gsnedders> darobin: what's the advantage to generating the idlharness tests statically?
  143. # [17:37] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think that that file is supposed to be in the code, so if it isn't then that's my mistake
  144. # [17:37] <tobie> gsnedders: for one, we'd know what tests we're actually running
  145. # [17:37] <darobin> gsnedders: well, in general real tests are much, much easier to debug
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  147. # [17:38] <darobin> and debugging is kind of useful for reviewing
  148. # [17:38] <gsnedders> Makes updating idlharness.js mean changing loads of files, though. And make sure the correct files get updated.
  149. # [17:38] <darobin> yeah
  150. # [17:38] <darobin> that's not a huge problem
  151. # [17:38] <jgraham> I… am not sure that's true
  152. # [17:38] <darobin> in fact we should probably automate getting all the IDL and converting that to tests anyway
  153. # [17:39] <jgraham> It seems like it could well be a real problem
  154. # [17:39] <gsnedders> not deleting orphaned files is something I've seen all too often
  155. # [17:39] <jgraham> (also generating many megabytes of static html probably isn't much fun)
  156. # [17:39] <tobie> I'm now setup to collect all WebIDL snippets in all specs.
  157. # [17:40] <jgraham> s/generating/consuming/
  158. # [17:40] <jgraham> YOu still need to manually specify the objects that the tests should run on
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  160. # [17:40] <tobie> jgraham: yup
  161. # [17:40] <darobin> yes
  162. # [17:40] <jgraham> So I don't think the process can be entirely automated
  163. # [17:40] <darobin> not entirely no
  164. # [17:41] <tobie> jgraham: nope, but you can automatically file new bugs with very specific things to change upon WebIDL changes
  165. # [17:41] <jgraham> Sure, you can do better than we are today. I don't think that statically generating the tests is a big part of that though
  166. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> jgraham: when I run wptrunner from a checkout of that PR branch, I get "ImportError: No module named sslutils". Or do I need to (re)run a setup step or something?
  167. # [17:42] <tobie> jgraham: the positive aspect of pre-generating those tests would be to avoid people writing them by hand.
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  169. # [17:43] <tobie> The other part would be knowing what it is we're testing
  170. # [17:43] <tobie> (which only a handful of people might know)
  171. # [17:44] <jgraham> tobie: That rather presumes that people will look through multiple megabytes of test files before writing their own tests
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  173. # [17:44] <jgraham> Which seems unlikely
  174. # [17:44] <tobie> multiple megabytes?
  175. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> jgraham: oh yeah ok the file for that library's in the code in the PR branch afaict
  176. # [17:44] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure we generate 100,000 tests
  177. # [17:45] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, you need the right branch of wpt checked out
  178. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> ah, wpt
  179. # [17:45] <tobie> >=500 tests per WebIDL fragment or so?
  180. # [17:46] <tobie> Sounds reasonable to look through, tbh
  181. # [17:46] <tobie> at least glance through them
  182. # [17:46] <jgraham> Well, to be fair I might be including Range tests in that
  183. # [17:46] <jgraham> But even 10,000 1kb tests is 10Mb of test files
  184. # [17:46] * MikeSmith rediscovers https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1302 "Support running tests with SSL"
  185. # [17:49] <jgraham> So I agree that statically generated tests are better for debugging
  186. # [17:49] <jgraham> They are worse for pretty much everything else though
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  188. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> jgraham: OK I have the right wpt PR branch checked out now and wptrunner starting as expected. Next question: Is there a specific subset of tests you've been testing with? a subdirectory I can give to the --include arg
  189. # [17:55] <tobie> 1kb/test seems like a lot
  190. # [17:55] * gsnedders agrees with jgraham here on the whole
  191. # [17:55] <gsnedders> (despite normally disagreeing with him on principle)
  192. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> heh
  193. # [17:56] * darobin wonders if we could make everyone happy by having idlharness be able to do both
  194. # [17:56] <darobin> and, oh yeah, the Range tests...
  195. # [17:58] <tobie> well, frankly, darobin, that doesn't solve the problem of what gets included in wpt
  196. # [17:58] <tobie> which is the crux of the discussion
  197. # [17:59] <darobin> tobie: we have different issues :)
  198. # [17:59] <darobin> mostly, I want to debug stuff without going fucking insane :)
  199. # [17:59] <darobin> but I hear you!
  200. # [17:59] <tobie> oh, yeah, me too. :)
  201. # [18:00] <tobie> I also think the test results would be a lot more relevant to developers if they could understand _what_ was tested
  202. # [18:00] <tobie> We'd also get a much more balanced view in that case
  203. # [18:01] <tobie> currently the difference between passing 50% of idlharness tests or 99% of them might be strictly related to how your prototype chains are implemented
  204. # [18:02] <gsnedders> darobin: I always worry about two theoretically identical tests giving different results :P
  205. # [18:02] <tobie> … which frankly doesn't tell you _anything_ about interop or how properly supported a feature is.
  206. # [18:02] <tobie> For example, every dev out there thinks localstorage is pretty much fully interoperable
  207. # [18:02] <darobin> that is true, our IDL testing sucks for that
  208. # [18:02] <jgraham> I don't see how this would fix that problem
  209. # [18:03] <tobie> yet last time I looked, Chrome had ~50% pass rate
  210. # [18:03] <tobie> jgraham: developer pressure
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  212. # [18:03] <jgraham> How is that related to splitting up the tests or not
  213. # [18:03] <tobie> not splitting them up.
  214. # [18:03] <jgraham> Well pregenerating them
  215. # [18:04] <tobie> well, we could actually see what it is that's being tested
  216. # [18:04] <gsnedders> isn't that a results display problem rather than anything else?
  217. # [18:04] <jgraham> You can see that already?
  218. # [18:04] <tobie> I can't. Sorry. Not smart enough.
  219. # [18:05] <jgraham> (the average size of a HTML file in wpt is ~1280 kB)
  220. # [18:05] <jgraham> s/k//
  221. # [18:05] <jgraham> (so 1kB/test seems like a rather reasonable guess)
  222. # [18:06] <gsnedders> could always make Function.prototype.toString.call(test) visible somehow in the results?
  223. # [18:06] <tobie> jgraham: I'm certainly *not* suggesting 1 page per test
  224. # [18:07] <tobie> gsnedders: that implies you're actually running the tests, etc.
  225. # [18:07] <jgraham> Anyway, this seems like a rather silly discussion; if someone actually works on it then we can evaluate the merits of the result, if they don't then nothing will happen
  226. # [18:07] <tobie> ^ absolutely
  227. # [18:07] <tobie> somehow darobin dragged me into it with promising chocolates on my behalf
  228. # [18:08] <tobie> s/with//
  229. # [18:08] <gsnedders> And I said I wasn't doing it :)
  230. # [18:08] <darobin> heh
  231. # [18:08] <darobin> all I said was chocolate
  232. # [18:09] <tobie> gsnedders: oh, is that what "agrees with jgraham here on the whole" meants?
  233. # [18:09] <tobie> s/meants/meant/
  234. # [18:10] <gsnedders> tobie: I'd implied it long before, saying I only really had interest in working in crazy research stuff :)
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  236. # [18:12] <tobie> gsnedders: I read that as a critical look at your own work (i.e. I know this is useless but I'm still doing it because it's fun) rather than poking fun at the project itself.
  237. # [18:12] <gsnedders> tobie: Oh, yes. Just most of the practical, actionable things around wpt like the above aren't crazy enough :)
  238. # [18:14] <tobie> true
  239. # [18:14] <gsnedders> (I mean I'm likely to contribute to wpt if I hit something where interop causes a problem for me, but I'm not so much going to spend my time looking for stuff to test.)
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  255. # [20:31] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] zcorpan opened pull request #1413: Avoid encoding literal U+00E5 in python since it fails for windows-1251.... (master...fix-1403) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1413
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  257. # [20:31] <zcorpan> jgraham: ^
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  260. # [20:34] <jgraham> zcorpan: Ooh
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  266. # [20:45] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] jgraham pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/7aef22819f592bd6519f8dffef6c22cd5adeeff6
  267. # [20:45] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 7aef228 James Graham: Update to latest wptserve
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  272. # [20:48] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] jgraham closed pull request #1413: Avoid encoding literal U+00E5 in python since it fails for windows-1251.... (master...fix-1403) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1413
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  275. # [20:48] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] jgraham pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/7aef22819f59...2d41a5dd8157
  276. # [20:48] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master f5b8b83 Simon Pieters: Avoid encoding literal U+00E5 in python since it fails for windows-1251. Fixes #1403
  277. # [20:48] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 2d41a5d jgraham: Merge pull request #1413 from zcorpan/fix-1403...
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  281. # [21:14] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: why are the picture validator tests at the root? http://w3c-test.org
  282. # [21:17] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  283. # [21:17] <plh> zcorpan, Mike is sleeping. looking...
  284. # [21:23] <plh> ok, gitcleaned and restarted wptserve as well
  285. # [21:24] <plh> regenerated the MANIFEST.json while at it
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  294. # Session Close: Wed Nov 26 00:00:00 2014

The end :)