/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-02-25 / end
Options:
- # Session Start: Wed Feb 25 00:00:00 2009
- # Session Ident: #webapps
- # [00:42] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Quit: Leaving)
- # [00:52] * Quits: heycam (cam@118.138.224.41) (Ping timeout)
- # [00:53] * Joins: heycam (cam@118.138.224.41)
- # [01:40] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
- # [01:43] * Quits: arve (arve@82.236.193.123) (Ping timeout)
- # [02:19] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
- # [03:14] * Joins: anne (annevk@58.1.246.135)
- # [03:33] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
- # [05:19] * Quits: anne (annevk@58.1.246.135) (Client exited)
- # [05:19] * Joins: anne (annevk@58.1.246.135)
- # [06:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
- # [06:03] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
- # [06:04] <anne> bit sad that there haven't been any comments on CORS so far
- # [06:07] <anne> guess the only way to grab attention is to publish Last Call but that creates so much overhead i don't really want to
- # [06:07] <anne> (unless really nobody cares, in which case we can go to CR, but that seems unrealistic)
- # [06:27] <MikeSmith> anne: remind me what's the deadline for comments?
- # [06:27] <anne> we haven't published as Last Call yet
- # [06:28] <anne> it's just that we do have implementations and several updates to the spec without any kind of review :)
- # [06:28] <anne> though maybe that's not too different from HTML5
- # [06:35] * Quits: heycam (cam@118.138.224.41) (Quit: bye)
- # [06:55] <MikeSmith> anne: so maybe it's time to publish another WD?
- # [06:56] <anne> yeah
- # [06:57] <anne> almost done with edits
- # [07:01] <anne> I think I only use MUST and MAY so far, fun
- # [07:12] <anne> ah, in doing things the wrong way around I found a good name for the spec that will define things like case-sensitive: "Web Terminology Framework"
- # [07:12] <anne> the name is inaccurate and only good because of the abbreviation
- # [07:13] <MikeSmith> heh
- # [07:13] <anne> do you think it's worth having a spec for that?
- # [07:13] <MikeSmith> yeah, absolutely
- # [07:14] <anne> ideally HTML5 datatypes are also separated out at some point
- # [07:14] * Joins: heycam (cam@124.168.12.212)
- # [07:14] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, I guess that'd make some sense
- # [07:14] <anne> imo
- # [07:14] <Hixie> man, y'all are killing me with this "html5 hasn't had any review" meme
- # [07:14] <Hixie> THOUSANDS OF E-MAILS
- # [07:14] <Hixie> THOUSANDS
- # [07:15] <Hixie> :-P
- # [07:15] <Hixie> (from me, replying to feedback, i mean)
- # [07:16] <MikeSmith> who been saying that?
- # [07:16] <anne> yeah, HTML5 prolly had more review
- # [07:16] <MikeSmith> oh, I see
- # [07:16] <MikeSmith> above
- # [07:16] <anne> so maybe the question should be why CORS isn't followed as closely as say, HTML5 <video>
- # [07:17] <MikeSmith> cause <video> makes pretty pictures
- # [07:17] <Hixie> MikeSmith: sam also implied it in a recent www-archive mail
- # [07:17] <MikeSmith> hmm
- # [07:18] <anne> sam was mostly about non-implementor feedback I believe
- # [07:19] <anne> i'd be happy with just that :)
- # [07:20] <MikeSmith> anne: I think what we need in order to get more attention on CORS is, we need a logo
- # [07:20] <MikeSmith> I suggest this one:
- # [07:20] <MikeSmith> http://www.empirezwinger.com/images/Leprechaun.jpg
- # [07:20] <anne> (the reason for datatypes externally is that other specs could reuse them more easily and not invent yet another variant as we've been doing so often)
- # [07:20] <anne> haha
- # [07:20] * anne replaces the W3C brand with that image
- # [07:21] <MikeSmith> hehehe
- # [07:21] <MikeSmith> I would vote for it
- # [07:21] <MikeSmith> yeah, about datatypes. would make it easier maybe for people to write datatype libraries
- # [07:31] <anne> yeah, and not have every spec define space-separated in its own unique way
- # [07:31] <anne> or how to parse an integer, etc.
- # [07:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, seriously
- # [07:33] <MikeSmith> you volunteering it actually write it?
- # [07:34] <anne> dunno yet, I think I'll write one for case-sensitive and all just copying Hixie's stuff
- # [07:34] <anne> I use most of the terms in various specs already
- # [07:35] * MikeSmith hopes we would not have to do a charter update/review if we added it to WebApps deliverables
- # [07:36] <MikeSmith> shepazu: ↑
- # [07:36] <anne> hmm it seems like just splitting out some text from one spec into a separate spec...
- # [07:36] <Hixie> if we do, there's a bunch of html5 stuff coming down the pipe
- # [07:37] <anne> i think there's an update in the works for web workers and such
- # [07:37] <Hixie> storage (localstorage and database), websocket api, eventsource
- # [07:37] <Hixie> timers
- # [07:44] <shepazu> it would have to be added to the charter, I'd reckon
- # [07:49] <anne> well i'll leave it then
- # [07:52] <anne> too high of a barrier to bother
- # [07:54] <shepazu> pft
- # [07:55] <anne> if you want to do it for me, go ahead ;)
- # [07:56] <shepazu> I could propose it for the upcoming charter review, where we're adding other stuff
- # [07:56] <anne> i don't really want to go through that trouble just to be able to publish a doc that defines ASCII case-insensitive and such on its own
- # [07:56] <anne> rather than as part of >3 independent drafts
- # [07:56] <shepazu> write me up a summary, and I'll see if I can include it
- # [07:56] <shepazu> I'll ask PLH what he thinks
- # [07:57] <shepazu> it sounds like a good idea to me
- # [07:57] <shepazu> send me an email
- # [07:57] <shepazu> and I'll look into it this week
- # [07:58] <anne> "Common Terminology for Web Specifications" defines terms and algorithms to be shared across independent Web specifications so that they become more coherent.
- # [07:58] <shepazu> sounds good... put it in an email so I remember to add it
- # [07:58] <timeless> become =>
- # [07:58] <MikeSmith> anne: I like the original name better
- # [07:58] <shepazu> me too
- # [07:58] <timeless> become => <something else>
- # [07:59] <shepazu> Web Terminology Framework, totally
- # [07:59] <anne> yeah ok
- # [07:59] <anne> just have to explain it's not actually a Framework in the intro :p
- # [07:59] <MikeSmith> anne: btw - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2009Feb/0019.html
- # [08:00] <anne> timeless, "can get"?
- # [08:00] <anne> MikeSmith, fun
- # [08:00] <MikeSmith> heh
- # [08:00] <anne> MikeSmith, i want to blog about that mess, maybe I should do that
- # [08:00] <shepazu> Web Terminology Framework/Fundamentals/Foundation/?
- # [08:00] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, man
- # [08:00] <MikeSmith> definitely worth a blog posting
- # [08:01] <anne> shepazu, Fundamentals works, cheers
- # [08:01] * anne e-mails
- # [08:01] <anne> actually, where should I e-mail it towards?
- # [08:01] <shepazu> webapps member list
- # [08:02] <timeless> anne: hrm, not really
- # [08:02] <anne> it's just an abstract...
- # [08:02] <anne> what's wrong with become?
- # [08:02] <timeless> can be used consistently?
- # [08:03] <timeless> terms are terms, it's not that the terms themselves are coherent
- # [08:03] <timeless> it's that you want them to be used in that manner
- # [08:03] <MikeSmith> it's the specifications that become more coherent, was the intent of the sentence, i think
- # [08:04] <timeless> then i treed the sentence wrong
- # [08:04] <shepazu> I think this is something that goes well with WebIDL
- # [08:04] <anne> is the grammar ambigious?
- # [08:04] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, it seems it is
- # [08:04] <shepazu> in fact, I proposed something similar a while back
- # [08:04] <shepazu> anne, don't worry about the grammar, I'll change it anyway
- # [08:04] <MikeSmith> anne: anyway, like you said, it's just an abstract
- # [08:05] <MikeSmith> I'm sure it'll change anyway
- # [08:05] <timeless> just so long as we understand which way you were trying
- # [08:05] <timeless> since obviously i failed there :)
- # [08:05] <shepazu> I understood it, and I'll use poetic license
- # [08:06] <shepazu> er, poetic CC
- # [08:06] <timeless> ?
- # [08:06] * timeless tries to understand that last correction
- # [08:07] <MikeSmith> more important thing is that we have a logo for the spec, and for each spec we do from now on
- # [08:07] <timeless> seriously"?
- # [08:07] <MikeSmith> maybe the bareass leprechaun would be better for this spec than for CORS
- # [08:07] <MikeSmith> or maybe this:
- # [08:07] <MikeSmith> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_h9eVfqVXHUY/Rp6lOnYdFfI/AAAAAAAAArg/RHa88GW3BIc/s320/walking_tall.jpg
- # [08:08] <timeless> heh
- # [08:09] <timeless> http://nt2.ggpht.com/news?imgefp=TjmQvXRAkXwJ&imgurl=media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/browserwars.jpg
- # [08:09] <MikeSmith> in general, we really need to do a better job of intimidating potential commentors
- # [08:09] <timeless> poor ie, it looks so small next to its rivals
- # [08:10] <shepazu> webkit/safari is missing there
- # [08:11] <MikeSmith> ah geez, another missile from He Who Shall Not Be Named on public-html
- # [08:13] * MikeSmith scans it to see it to see how many statements impugning other people he's managed to squeeze into this one
- # [08:13] <timeless> shepazu: they're a well behaved american company who don't want to get involved in this nonsense\?
- # [08:13] <shepazu> Sam Ruby? Dmitri Turin? Hastur the Unspeakable?
- # [08:13] <timeless> besides, if apple gets involved, it's inviting the EU to sue it next
- # [08:14] <MikeSmith> hmm, first sentence is pretty good. sort of the equivalent of "Jane, you ignorant slut."
- # [08:14] <shepazu> oh, is that the context there, timeless?
- # [08:14] <timeless> shepazu: i hope so
- # [08:14] <timeless> dunno, google doesn't have a perfect record when grabbing images for headlines
- # [08:15] <timeless> this is from the front page for news.google.com
- # [08:15] <timeless> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10558656
- # [08:15] <timeless> is the link
- # [08:15] <timeless> and http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/technology/companies/25google.html?ref=business
- # [08:15] <timeless> is the primary headline
- # [08:15] <timeless> note that MoCo/MoFo actually indicated it wasn't interested
- # [08:16] <timeless> at least, the last time i checked
- # [08:16] <timeless> yeah, the contet is otherwise correct
- # [08:16] * timeless does need ot recheck the mozilla status
- # [08:16] <timeless> http://static.arstechnica.com/gorilla_ie.jpg
- # [08:16] <timeless> is better art :)
- # [08:17] <timeless> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/02/google-joins-the-eus-internet-explorer-smackdown.ars
- # [08:18] <timeless> is a much better article
- # [08:20] <shepazu> "You make a logical leap here that has no basis." is the new "Jane, you ignorant slut."
- # [08:20] <shepazu> I'm going to start prefacing all my emails with that
- # [08:21] <shepazu> "Hi, Mom- You make a logical leap here that has no basis. Hope everything is well. Love- -Doug"
- # [08:22] <anne> he always makes this broad claims how the other person is ignorant, illogical, etc. and then goes on in non-followable fashion
- # [08:22] <shepazu> anne, you make a logical leap here that has no basis.
- # [08:22] <shepazu> Get back in the kitchen.
- # [08:23] * shepazu notes that this will look funnier in the logs, to people who don't know anne is a boychild
- # [08:25] <anne> s/this broad/these broad/
- # [08:27] <timeless> should i be glad i don't read this list?
- # [08:31] <Hixie> anne: fwiw, with html5, i'd probably not use the suggested document until late in the process, because i find myself tweaking those definitions often
- # [08:34] <MikeSmith> could have multiple editors on it, both tweak the same source
- # [08:39] <anne> Hixie, the idea is that you won't have to worry about the definitions :)
- # [08:40] <Hixie> how would that work?
- # [08:40] <Hixie> if i come across some weird behavior that needs some particular definition, it won't just appear in the definitions spec
- # [08:41] <anne> true, I was thinking of doing very basic stuff first
- # [08:41] <anne> e.g. tree order and ASCII case-insensitive
- # [08:54] <Hixie> even things like tree order change sometimes, e.g. "home subtree" and so forth has changed and been tweaked a number of times recently
- # [08:55] <anne> k
- # [09:07] * Joins: ArtB (5a025589@128.30.52.43)
- # [09:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
- # [09:15] * Joins: arve (arve@90.2.85.137)
- # [09:36] * Joins: Marcos (Marcos@90.2.85.137)
- # [09:42] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
- # [10:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
- # [11:04] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
- # [11:23] * Parts: anne (annevk@58.1.246.135)
- # [11:26] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
- # [11:47] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
- # [12:56] * Quits: Marcos (Marcos@90.2.85.137) (Quit: Marcos)
- # [13:55] * Joins: Marcos (Marcos@90.2.85.137)
- # [13:58] * Quits: ArtB (5a025589@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
- # [13:59] * Joins: ArtB (5a025589@128.30.52.43)
- # [15:35] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15)
- # [16:02] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbiab
- # [16:03] * Quits: ArtB (5a025589@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
- # [16:21] * Joins: ArtB (5a025589@128.30.52.43)
- # [16:24] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
- # [16:24] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.247)
- # [16:47] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.247) (Ping timeout)
- # [16:48] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
- # [16:48] * tlr-bbiab is now known as tlr
- # [17:45] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
- # [17:58] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@82.181.141.13) (Client exited)
- # [18:01] * Joins: smaug (chatzilla@82.181.141.13)
- # [18:14] * Quits: ArtB (5a025589@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
- # [18:19] * Quits: Marcos (Marcos@90.2.85.137) (Quit: Marcos)
- # [18:21] * Quits: arve (arve@90.2.85.137) (Ping timeout)
- # [18:29] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
- # [18:37] * Joins: arve (arve@82.236.193.123)
- # [18:37] * Joins: Marcos (Marcos@82.236.193.123)
- # [19:34] * Quits: Marcos (Marcos@82.236.193.123) (Quit: Marcos)
- # [19:38] * Quits: arve (arve@82.236.193.123) (Ping timeout)
- # [19:52] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@63.245.220.246)
- # [20:12] * Joins: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
- # [20:34] <smaug> is there a call today
- # [20:38] <shepazu> hi, smaug, that's the plan
- # [20:38] <shepazu> waiting for chaals
- # [20:38] <smaug> ah,
- # [20:38] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
- # [20:38] * smaug checks if he has skype credits
- # [20:38] <shepazu> zakim, start telcon
- # [20:38] <Zakim> I don't understand 'start telcon', shepazu
- # [20:38] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
- # [20:38] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
- # [20:38] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
- # [20:38] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-webapps-irc
- # [20:38] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [20:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
- # [20:38] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
- # [20:38] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
- # [20:39] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
- # [20:39] <trackbot> Date: 25 February 2009
- # [20:39] <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
- # [20:39] <Zakim> ok, shepazu, I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM already started
- # [20:39] * shepazu zakim, call shepazu
- # [20:39] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
- # [20:39] <Zakim> +Shepazu
- # [20:40] <smaug> hmm, couldn't call in
- # [20:41] <Zakim> +??P18
- # [20:41] <smaug> Zakim, ??P18 is me
- # [20:41] <Zakim> +smaug; got it
- # [20:41] <chaals> zakim, who is here?
- # [20:41] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P10, Shepazu, smaug
- # [20:41] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, chaals, sicking, Lachy, smaug, aroben, tlr, heycam, shepazu, gsnedders, hober, hendry, gavin, timeless, krijnh, inimino, Dashiva, timelyx, trackbot,
- # [20:41] <Zakim> ... phenny, Hixie
- # [20:41] <chaals> zakim, ??p10 is me
- # [20:41] <Zakim> +chaals; got it
- # [20:43] <chaals> Agenda+ load event and what it fires on
- # [20:43] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
- # [20:43] <smaug> better to mute myself
- # [20:45] <shepazu> ISSUE-44?
- # [20:45] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-44
- # [20:45] <trackbot> ISSUE-44 -- Should DOM3 Events cover the interaction of events and the Window object? -- RAISED
- # [20:45] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44
- # [20:46] <chaals> scribe: Chaals
- # [20:47] <chaals> Smaug: The thing that Gecko does is very odd, but it because that is what Web pages does
- # [20:47] <chaals> DS: That would be HTML - SVG is different
- # [20:47] <chaals> Sm: Does SVG have SVGLoad?
- # [20:48] <chaals> DS: Proposal, say that a language may/must/? define where a load event is fired
- # [20:48] <chaals> Sm: HTML5 does sort of do that already.
- # [20:48] <chaals> q+ to ask what happens for a language that *doesn't* specify that?
- # [20:48] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
- # [20:49] <chaals> DS: We could point out the two different cases.
- # [20:49] <chaals> s/Proposal/Yes, and load that is somewhat overloaded. Proposal/
- # [20:49] * chaals finding it hard to hear
- # [20:50] <chaals> Sm: Something strange happens - the event is dispatched to the window, not to the target. That is how Gecko works, because when I tried to make it do something more reasonable it broke lots of sites.
- # [20:50] <chaals> DS: SO, does the proposal work for you?
- # [20:51] <chaals> SM: Yes, makes sense for it to depend on the language
- # [20:51] <chaals> DS: So what should we do if I have SVG inside HTML. How should it bubble?
- # [20:52] <chaals> Sm: If you get loading for the image it is dispatched to the image in HTML, and goes to document. Doesn't go to the window like all other events.
- # [20:52] <chaals> ... load event listeners on window only find the events that are for loading the page
- # [20:53] <chaals> ... I think webkit has the same hack
- # [20:53] <chaals> ... Opera used to do something different, years ago, not sure now.
- # [20:53] <chaals> DS: So if I work out some proposed wording and submit that to the list
- # [20:54] <chaals> ACTION: Doug to propose some wording to resolve ISSUE-44 by saying that it depends on the language where the event goes
- # [20:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [20:54] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Doug
- # [20:54] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dstamper, schepers)
- # [20:54] * RRSAgent records action 1
- # [20:54] <chaals> ACTION: schepers to propose some wording to resolve ISSUE-44 by saying that it depends on the language where the event goes
- # [20:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [20:54] * RRSAgent records action 2
- # [20:54] <trackbot> Created ACTION-312 - Propose some wording to resolve ISSUE-44 by saying that it depends on the language where the event goes [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-04].
- # [20:56] <chaals> Adjourned.
- # [20:56] <chaals> Proposed topic for next week: Mutation events
- # [21:00] <chaals> Sm: Would it make sense to have a small spec for gesture events?
- # [21:00] <chaals> DS: Yes. Pen, multi-touch, ...
- # [21:01] <Zakim> -smaug
- # [21:01] <Zakim> -chaals
- # [21:01] <chaals> rrsagent, make minutes member
- # [21:01] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes member', chaals. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- # [21:01] <Zakim> -Shepazu
- # [21:01] <Zakim> IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has ended
- # [21:01] <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, smaug, chaals
- # [21:02] <chaals> rrsagent, make log member
- # [21:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, chaals
- # [21:02] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
- # [21:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-webapps-minutes.html chaals
- # [21:14] <chaals> rrsagent, bye
- # [21:14] <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-webapps-actions.rdf :
- # [21:14] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug to propose some wording to resolve ISSUE-44 by saying that it depends on the language where the event goes [1]
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-webapps-irc#T19-51-11
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: schepers to propose some wording to resolve ISSUE-44 by saying that it depends on the language where the event goes [2]
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-webapps-irc#T19-51-19
- # [21:15] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
- # [21:15] <chaals> zakim, bye
- # [21:15] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
- # [21:18] <gsnedders> And again bots vanish. Have they been murdered!? :o
- # [21:23] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
- # [21:23] <tlr> gah
- # [21:23] <tlr> zakim, bye
- # [21:24] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
- # [21:24] * tlr saw gsnedders' remark, thought something was wrong
- # [21:24] * tlr had missed chaals's dismissal
- # [21:24] * gsnedders notes the safe thing to do around him is to ignore him
- # [21:25] * tlr will happily comply
- # [22:25] * Quits: heycam (cam@124.168.12.212) (Quit: bye)
- # [23:16] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
- # [23:28] * Joins: heycam (cam@118.138.224.18)
- # Session Close: Thu Feb 26 00:00:00 2009
The end :)