/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2010-04-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 09 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  55. # [14:55] <Marcos> ArtB, darobin, talked to anne about W-VM-I. Apparently, David Baron made a proposal that addresses VM-I's cases. He proposed to extend CSSOM Views' matchMedium() method with a call back. For example: blahblah = styleMedia.matchMedium("screen", function() { alert("no longer screen!") })
  56. # [14:56] <ArtB> Anne, do you have a pointer to that conversation with DavidB?
  57. # [15:03] <anne> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=542058#c3
  58. # [15:06] <kenneth> Marcos, interesting suggestion
  59. # [15:08] <kenneth> anne, you like that suggestion?
  60. # [15:09] <anne> i rather have nothing at all to be honest, but after having thought it some more I suppose it is relatively low cost
  61. # [15:10] <anne> i haven't really seen a lot of use cases presented
  62. # [15:10] <anne> or anything actually
  63. # [15:10] <kenneth> I have heard people requesting that
  64. # [15:11] <anne> sure, i have seen requests too
  65. # [15:11] <anne> people request things all the time
  66. # [15:11] <anne> but unless it is clear why designing a good solution is hard
  67. # [15:12] <anne> often people request features because a current feature is buggy
  68. # [15:12] * Joins: arve (arve@213.236.208.22)
  69. # [15:12] <anne> clearly the solution there is to fix the bug instead
  70. # [15:12] <kenneth> people want to make the view modes quite different and have a lot of flexibility
  71. # [15:12] <kenneth> so I guess getting notified about the change makes sense
  72. # [15:12] <kenneth> you might not just want to change the css
  73. # [15:13] <anne> sure, but none of that is a use case
  74. # [15:13] <anne> so it's still not clear what the problem is
  75. # [15:14] * Joins: lgombos (Laszlo@192.100.104.17)
  76. # [15:14] <kenneth> anne, you want to change things with scripting when changing mode? how is that not a use-case?
  77. # [15:15] <darobin> I have a colour picker: if the medium goes from colour to B&W I want to make it B&W
  78. # [15:15] * darobin loves inane examples
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  80. # [15:15] <anne> i doubt any browser would actually catch that case
  81. # [15:15] <Marcos> Anne, rotate your ipod touch (use case).
  82. # [15:16] <kenneth> Marcos, that is a more real use case
  83. # [15:16] <anne> rotating is not a use case
  84. # [15:16] <anne> a use case is that if you rotate your ipod touch you want to show the more advanced calculator
  85. # [15:16] <anne> is it really that hard?
  86. # [15:16] <anne> o_O
  87. # [15:17] <darobin> that's why the colour picker is a use case
  88. # [15:17] <darobin> even if it's a useless case
  89. # [15:17] <anne> oh yeah, I didn't disagree with you
  90. # [15:17] <Marcos> anne, well, that's one of a million use cases... the point is that it's a use case. Rotate, detect rotation, do something fancy
  91. # [15:17] <anne> I've been wondering how to test color changes dynamically a couple of years ago
  92. # [15:17] <anne> it didn't work
  93. # [15:17] <kenneth> we have the media for landscape/portrait...
  94. # [15:17] <darobin> no, it's not really supported
  95. # [15:18] <anne> Marcos, no it's not a use case
  96. # [15:18] <anne> of course then follows that you have to demonstrate it does not work with just media queries and CSS
  97. # [15:18] <anne> e.g. by selectively hiding and moving parts of the interface around using CSS
  98. # [15:18] <kenneth> Marcos, for Widgets I might want to show different menu items (created using JS) depending if it is portrait or landscape
  99. # [15:18] <anne> there's no point adding a new feature if the use case is already covered
  100. # [15:19] <darobin> well the thing is that it also depends on which CSS we're talking about
  101. # [15:19] <kenneth> anne, how would you do that? ^
  102. # [15:19] <Marcos> That's ridiculous Anne, that's like saying "we already have assembler, and it does everything, why do you need anything else?"
  103. # [15:19] <darobin> for instance, if we had advanced template layouting, a number of the use cases might disappear (e.g. the calculator one probably would)
  104. # [15:20] <anne> kenneth, display:none :)
  105. # [15:20] <darobin> but we don't have template layout in a usable form now
  106. # [15:20] <anne> darobin, yup
  107. # [15:20] <darobin> vertical centering :-p
  108. # [15:21] <anne> Marcos, it's not, use cases involve users (well, actors)
  109. # [15:21] <kenneth> anne, we will have native JS api's for doing native integration, we will need to change things using JS when changing view mode etc. How can I do that today without getting notified of the view mode change
  110. # [15:21] <anne> Marcos, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_Case for some more details
  111. # [15:22] <kenneth> as a user I want my app to go fullscreen, meaning that the app adds a native menu item called "exit fullscreen" via JS
  112. # [15:23] <darobin> and I think that this functionality, being a lot easier to specify and implement than templates, makes sense while we wait for the CSS WG to finish that
  113. # [15:24] <Marcos> As user of a widget, I have a full audio program with OS chrome. I want to swap to a mode where there is no chrome so I can display just play/next/prev.
  114. # [15:24] <kenneth> Marcos, and you want want to have a lot of hidden div
  115. # [15:24] <kenneth> s in memory :-)
  116. # [15:25] <Marcos> no, I want the browser chrome to all go away.
  117. # [15:25] <Marcos> and just float there
  118. # [15:25] <Marcos> Like a "widget" :)
  119. # [15:26] <kenneth> oh yeah
  120. # [15:26] <kenneth> Marcos, also important for hybrid apps
  121. # [15:26] <kenneth> Marcos, you want the actual app using the web view to change
  122. # [15:26] <anne> darobin, I'm not really opposed; I just think it makes sense to put a thought into it, because maybe we can do better
  123. # [15:26] <Marcos> That is true, and those have users right? I guess that makes them "use cases"... but I might be crazy :)
  124. # [15:26] <anne> a little thought*
  125. # [15:27] <kenneth> anne, I like a lot more adding this callback that making something specific for view modes, rotation etc
  126. # [15:27] * Marcos too
  127. # [15:28] <kenneth> the question is what kind of even would the method receive? none, so you have to check with matchMedium?
  128. # [15:28] <darobin> anne: well, I think it makes sense to put some thought into anything that we intend to make a standard of — I'm not opposed to you thinking :)
  129. # [15:29] <kenneth> I just hope we will do it soon, so we dont have vendors shipping different solutions
  130. # [15:30] <anne> kenneth, event? it's a callback
  131. # [15:30] <darobin> should someone take dbaron's proposal to email and see if we can garner some wider consensus?
  132. # [15:30] <kenneth> yaeh I know, I mean should the callback receive arguments?
  133. # [15:30] <lgombos> widget environments often also have javascript extensions that are not part of DOM, so not stylable via DOM - hance the need for a scriptable event
  134. # [15:30] <anne> i don't think so
  135. # [15:30] <kenneth> anne, like the new viewmode
  136. # [15:30] <kenneth> ok
  137. # [15:31] <kenneth> so if you want to know what changed you will have to call matchMedium, sounds fine with me
  138. # [15:31] <anne> matchMedium evaluates to either true or false, the callback is invoked when that changes, that should be sufficient
  139. # [15:31] <kenneth> oh yeah true
  140. # [15:31] <kenneth> so for view mode changes, I will have to add one call back for each mode or just one for (view-mode)
  141. # [15:31] <anne> you can just update the variable you put whatever matchMedium returned in
  142. # [15:32] <anne> one for each you care about
  143. # [15:32] <kenneth> yes you are right
  144. # [15:32] <kenneth> i like this solution
  145. # [15:35] <kenneth> anne, "I didn't know it was already implemented, but Apple told me they are updating
  146. # [15:35] <kenneth> because they agree the renaming will help avoid clashes.". Are you sayuing that matchMedium will change name?
  147. # [15:37] <anne> the interface it is on and its accessor is
  148. # [15:37] <anne> well, has changed name
  149. # [15:37] <kenneth> ah got it
  150. # [15:37] <kenneth> it is currently on .media in webkit
  151. # [15:38] <anne> in trunk?
  152. # [15:38] <kenneth> im pretty sure
  153. # [15:38] <kenneth> but that should change to styleMedia then?
  154. # [15:38] <anne> yes
  155. # [15:38] <kenneth> I can probably fix that then
  156. # [15:38] <anne> I discussed this in person last week with the people at Apple
  157. # [15:38] <kenneth> with who?
  158. # [15:39] <kenneth> if that will change I need to make that change before we release a new QtWebKit and people start using this
  159. # [15:39] <anne> simon and dino
  160. # [15:39] <kenneth> ok
  161. # [15:39] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbiab
  162. # [15:40] <kenneth> I will add simon fraser to the bug then :-)
  163. # [15:40] <kenneth> oh yes our tests currently use this
  164. # [15:40] <kenneth> var isTrue = document.defaultView.media.matchMedium(query);
  165. # [15:41] * arve notes that tlr-bbiab is using runkeeper as well
  166. # [15:41] <kenneth> lgombos, we need to fix this before our release
  167. # [15:41] <lgombos> kenneth: agreed, should be an easy fix if it is just a name change
  168. # [15:42] <kenneth> yes
  169. # [15:42] <kenneth> I will look into it today
  170. # [15:42] <lgombos> anne, you're probably referring to Simon Fraser
  171. # [15:43] <kenneth> lgombos, yes, he was in the meeting
  172. # [15:46] <anne> kenneth, document.defaultView seems somewhat overkill
  173. # [15:47] * tlr-bbiab mumbles "51.4km" to Arve
  174. # [15:47] <kenneth> anne, yes, wouldn't that not just return window?
  175. # [15:48] <anne> yeah
  176. # [15:49] <anne> there was the idea it might return a different global object depending on the view but that is not going to happen
  177. # [15:50] <arve> tlr-bbiab: that's impressive
  178. # [15:51] <arve> 23.3 only here
  179. # [15:52] <arve> I think I need to convince the runkeeper people to port to HTML5
  180. # [15:53] <tlr-bbiab> yep
  181. # [15:54] <arve> slash widgets+geolocation
  182. # [15:54] <arve> (or rather, a more specific api than geolocation)
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  218. # Session Close: Sat Apr 10 00:00:00 2010

The end :)