/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-03-28 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Mar 28 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <jacobolus> hsivonen: that's the spec, and would create the least problems
# [00:00] <hsivonen> jacobolus: nope
# [00:00] <hsivonen> jacobolus: untagged images should be assumed to be in the same color space as CSS colors
# [00:00] <jacobolus> hsivonen: yes, that's right
# [00:00] <jacobolus> css colors are sRGB
# [00:00] <jacobolus> or should be
# [00:01] <jacobolus> that's the spec
# [00:02] <hsivonen> jacobolus: the reality is that in most implementations, by default, CSS colors are in the system color space
# [00:02] <jacobolus> hsivonen: yes, which means on a mac everything looks different than it looks everywhere else
# [00:02] <jacobolus> because in most systems, system color space ~= sRGB
# [00:02] <hsivonen> jacobolus: people write all sorts of things in specs
# [00:03] <jacobolus> okay, but this one is actually a good idea
# [00:03] <hsivonen> jacobolus: see shipping OS X with 2.2 gamma above
# [00:03] <jacobolus> hmm, well that just makes every interface designed for 1.8 gamma overnight look crappy
# [00:03] <hsivonen> jacobolus: the Mac 1.8 default seriously is not worth the grief
# [00:04] <jacobolus> what you mean is, the lack of color management in web browsers isn't worth it
# [00:04] <jacobolus> hsivonen: esp. in 2-3 years this will be a huge problem
# [00:04] <hsivonen> jacobolus: no.
# [00:04] <jacobolus> display gamuts, white points, etc. will diverge
# [00:04] <jacobolus> quality can exceed sRGB, etc.
# [00:04] <hsivonen> what I am saying is pretty much in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/
# [00:05] <jacobolus> hsivonen: the only good (IMO) reason hyatt gave me for not color managing css colors was that flash would break
# [00:05] <hsivonen> jacobolus: moreover, aligning the Mac system color space with the world that we cannot change would be practical
# [00:05] <jacobolus> hsivonen: okay, but not everyone in the future is going to be sRGB
# [00:05] <jacobolus> hsivonen: take for instance the One Laptop Per Child machines
# [00:05] <hsivonen> jacobolus: sRGB is bullshit
# [00:06] <jacobolus> their screens aren't even close to sRGB
# [00:06] <hsivonen> jacobolus: but 2.2 gamma is reality everywhere except in Apple's niche
# [00:06] <jacobolus> argh. you aren't getting it. the gamma issue is not the problem. the lack of color management is the problem
# [00:06] <hsivonen> jacobolus: I don't object to color management. I object to gratuitously different baseline
# [00:06] <jacobolus> it's not gratuitous
# [00:07] <jacobolus> print designers have been using it for 20 years
# [00:07] <hsivonen> jacobolus: you sound like the prepress guy at WWDC 2005 :-)
# [00:07] <jacobolus> i'm not a prepress guy, but I can see where they're coming from
# [00:07] <jacobolus> anyway, at the point where you have color management, it *really* doesn't matter whether it's 1.8 or 2.2
# [00:07] <hsivonen> jacobolus: color management in every trivial app is a nice pie in the sky
# [00:08] <jacobolus> hmm/
# [00:08] <jacobolus> ?
# [00:08] <hsivonen> jacobolus: but if you have uncalibrated hardware, color management is garbage in, garbage out
# [00:08] <jacobolus> color management is pretty much a reality in 99% of where it matters on the mac, *except* the web
# [00:08] <jacobolus> whatever. it's still better than assuming all hardware has the same characteristics
# [00:08] <hsivonen> jacobolus: making OS X default to 2.2 gamma would remove the gratuitous incompatibility for the best benefit per cost
# [00:09] <jacobolus> well, the cost would be every app has to completely redesign its interface
# [00:09] <jacobolus> and the benefit would be almost nothing, except for letting browsers not worry about color management
# [00:09] <hsivonen> jacobolus: not even close on the Mac. I have my parents run their Macs at 2.2 gamma to make Windows-oriented camera and print workflows work right
# [00:10] <jacobolus> windows-oriented camera/print workflows work just fine
# [00:10] <jacobolus> OS X image frameworks take embedded profiles into account
# [00:10] <hsivonen> jacobolus: I run at 1.8 to avoid double darkening when watching West Wing
# [00:10] <jacobolus> so if your camera stores images in sRGB, everything just works
# [00:10] <jacobolus> watching west wing?
# [00:10] * jacobolus shrugs
# [00:11] <hsivonen> the old TV app sucked and didn't take the display profile into account
# [00:11] <hsivonen> (I should checke if my new TV software suffers from the same bogosity)
# [00:11] <hsivonen> jacobolus: West Wing has dark colors
# [00:11] <hsivonen> jacobolus: and the TV app hard-coded gamma correction with 1.8 display target
# [00:14] <hsivonen> jacobolus: and it is pointless to say that color managed workflows with devices designed to interoperate with Windows PCs work, when I can see that they work better with 2.2 gamma without color management than with 1.8 gamma and color management on
# [00:19] <hsivonen> hendry: congrats on Debian bug #413926.
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# [00:23] <jacobolus> hsivonen: dunno. i have no color-management issues on my mac with 1.8 gamma ;)
# [00:24] <jacobolus> hsivonen: either way though, browsers should do color management of css colors
# [00:25] <jacobolus> right now, css colors look wildly different than their intent when moving from one display to another
# [00:26] <othermaciej> I so didn't want to raise this discussion topic
# [00:26] <jacobolus> i'm not really a 1.8 gamma partisan: I don't much care what gamma the display has beyond using the gamma that application designers were targeting :)
# [00:26] <hendry> hsivonen: thanks
# [00:26] <jacobolus> othermaciej: sorry
# [00:26] <hsivonen> othermaciej: sorry, too
# [00:26] <hendry> hsivonen: you see http://webconverger.com/about/ ? :)
# [00:27] <hendry> my dad bought a Macbook today. I am trying to figure out where the terminal is... any recommended Mac resources to get started?
# [00:27] <jacobolus> othermaciej: who can i talk to at macrodobe to get them moving?
# [00:27] <hsivonen> hendry: hadn't seen it before
# [00:27] <jacobolus> i'm happy to go pester them instead of webkit guys :)
# [00:28] <jacobolus> hendry: the terminal is in /applications/utilities/
# [00:28] <hendry> i see no applications :
# [00:28] <jacobolus> hendry: umm. it should be in the root of the boot volume
# [00:29] <hsivonen> hendry: /Applications/Utilities
# [00:29] <jacobolus> isn't that what I just said? :)
# [00:29] <hendry> oh yes! found it
# [00:30] <hsivonen> jacobolus: you said it in lower case
# [00:30] <jacobolus> well hfs+ is usually case-insensitive
# [00:30] <jacobolus> ;)
# [00:30] <hendry> hsivonen: i was wondering is there was a way of decorating the table column in CSS in http://webconverger.com/about
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# [00:32] <hsivonen> hendry: are you familiar with http://ln.hixie.ch/?count=1&start=1070385285 ?
# [00:32] <hendry> i still have not figured out how right click works with the track pad. I am also amazed it can't recognise my external USB fat32 hard drives.
# [00:32] <jacobolus> webben: photoshop does color management by assuming untagged images are in the "working space", which could be sRGB or Adobe RGB (though you can decide how it should treat them, or get a prompt when opening untagged images if you want)
# [00:33] <jacobolus> hendry: put 2 fingers on the trackpad, and click the button
# [00:33] <hendry> hsivonen: ah, tahnks for than
# [00:33] <jacobolus> hendry: or do ⌃ + click
# [00:34] <hendry> two fingers thing doesn't work me
# [00:35] <hendry> what the hell is "⌃"?
# [00:35] <hsivonen> hendry: ctrl
# [00:35] <hendry> anyway, is there some apple support channel out there?
# [00:35] <hendry> hsivonen: thanks again
# [00:35] <jacobolus> hendry: ⌃ == ctrl
# [00:36] <jacobolus> hmm, dunno about mac support channels. i just ask mac support questions in ##textmate ;)
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# [00:38] <hendry> hey, can we try ichat? though... do I really have to sign up for a .Mac account?
# [00:38] <jacobolus> no, it is AIM
# [00:38] <kingryan> it does jabber, too
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# [00:38] <jacobolus> and can also work with jabber (so probably google talk?)
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# [00:40] <hsivonen> jacobolus: google's jabber server: yes. audio interop: no
# [00:41] <jacobolus> hendry: this might be useful: http://arswiki.info/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
# [00:46] <hendry> my id is kai.hendry@gmail.com if you'll like to try ichat
# [00:48] <hendry> jacobolus: thanks for the link
# [00:49] <jacobolus> hey, is there any distinction between "0" and "0px" in css?
# [00:50] <webben> hendry: sure there's #mac for one
# [00:51] <jacobolus> like is margin:0; ever different from margin:0em; or margin:0px;
# [00:51] <webben> jacobolus: better to address such Qs to #css but the answer is no, and 0 is the preferred syntax
# [00:52] <webben> 0em and 0ex and 0px being superfluous units
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# [00:52] <jacobolus> sorry, i'll duck out of here now :) thanks all for the earlier answers about <a> blocks :)
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# [01:42] <Hixie> should start < loopStart < loopEnd < end be enforced, or should it be possible to have a timeline like |---<loopStart>---<start>---<loopEnd>---<end>---|
# [01:42] <Hixie> ?
# [01:42] <Hixie> (othermaciej?)
# [01:45] <Lachy_> I don't think it would make sense to have loopStart before start
# [01:45] <Lachy_> but shouldn't it be start <= loopStart < loopEnd <= end
# [01:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: yo
# [01:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: in meeting
# [01:46] <Hixie> you could imagine a case where you loop and you have a sound between the loops but not at the start or end
# [01:46] <Hixie> that would need loopStart or loopEnd to be outside the start...end bit
# [01:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm not sure - seems like there is no need to force it
# [01:46] <Hixie> k
# [01:47] <Hixie> we do have to assume that the starts are before the ends, i think
# [01:47] <othermaciej> yes
# [01:48] <othermaciej> impossible to splice together a sane timeline otherwise
# [01:49] <Hixie> yeah
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# [06:40] <tylerr> Evening all.
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# [06:43] <Lachy_> Hi tylerr
# [06:43] <tylerr> Hey! Lachy_, how's it going? :-)
# [06:45] <Lachy_> I'm fine, u?
# [06:45] <Lachy_> how are you going with those articles? made any progress?
# [06:45] <tylerr> Trying to come up with a half-witty, half-relevant site name.
# [06:46] <Lachy_> I thought you were just going to publish them on the whatwg blog
# [06:46] <tylerr> Oh I am, this is for my personal one. :-)
# [06:46] <tylerr> And I've got the groupings figured out. I'm now working on use cases.
# [06:47] <Lachy_> are you trying to plan all articles at the same time, or just working on 1 at a time?
# [06:47] <tylerr> Working on one group at a time.
# [06:48] <tylerr> So say for the "prose" section, I'd like a few use cases.
# [06:50] <tylerr> One that covers and <hr>/ and one that covers <dialog>.
# [06:50] <tylerr> So on and so forth through the rest of the sections.
# [06:51] <tylerr> I'll also have an article that addresses the various predefined class names.
# [06:54] <Lachy_> <dialog> is easy: IRC or instant message chat logs!
# [06:55] <tylerr> Lachy_: You read my mind. :-)
# [06:55] <Lachy_> I don't think you should really bother covering such basic elements as , , <hr>, etc. They're already widely used and generally people know what they're for
# [06:55] <tylerr> Can you imagine <dialog> tags injected with Microformat hCard code? Mmm...
# [06:56] <Lachy_> nah, that was one of the use cases we had in mind when we came up with dialog
# [06:56] <tylerr> Oh sure, that would be for my beginner articles.
# [06:56] <tylerr> Ahh.
# [06:56] <Lachy_> it was also to address the mistake in HTML4 that <dl> could be used for dialog
# [06:57] <tylerr> Aye, I always wondered about that. Now it makes sense to use <dt> and <dd> inside a <dialog>.
# [06:57] * Lachy_ wants to do one on video soon, as soon as the draft stabalises
# [06:57] <tylerr> Nice!
# [06:57] <tylerr> I'd consider doing a <canvas> to start.
# [06:58] <Lachy_> I don't want to do canvas, it's been done before (elsewhere)
# [06:58] <Lachy_> but you can do it
# [06:58] <tylerr> Oh. I'll find the link. I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
# [06:58] <tylerr> I'd rather "pave the cowpaths". ;-)
# [06:58] <tylerr> Instead of widen the road.
# [06:58] <Lachy_> there's plenty of articles on canvas, it's been around for nearly 2 years
# [06:58] <Lachy_> look up Plot Kit
# [06:59] <tylerr> Ah see, this is what I get for wanting to expand my horizons in web development only a month or so ago.
# [06:59] <tylerr> Thanks will do.
# [06:59] <Lachy_> also ExplorerCanvas on source forge
# [07:00] <tylerr> So far all I've focused on is accessibility and standards-based design, so I haven't explored many of the custom elements.
# [07:00] <tylerr> *browser elements
# [07:01] <tylerr> What's the port for the W3 server? I'm setting up my home connection to it.
# [07:04] <Lachy_> the IRC server?
# [07:04] <Lachy_> irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg
# [07:04] <tylerr> Great thanks! (was looking for the 6665 part)
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# [17:48] <annevk> http://doyouwanttodie.com/2007/03/27/more-changes/
# [17:48] <annevk> (my reply is a reference to what he wrote on his about page)
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# [18:00] <gavin_> haha
# [18:02] <gsnedders> reality sucks
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# [18:09] <Dashiva> annevk is going all philosophical on us
# [18:09] <Dashiva> next it'll be analogies about butterflies and boulders, no doubt about it
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# [19:26] <othermaciej> hello all
# [19:27] <annevk> hi maciej
# [19:27] <Hixie> hey
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# [19:29] <othermaciej> hi annevk
# [19:29] <othermaciej> hello Hixie
# [19:30] <annevk> Hixie, when will you commit the new video stuff so I can read some diff?
# [19:30] * annevk reads /source atm
# [19:32] <annevk> also, " If the same URI has been registered multiple times, removing it must only remove one instance of that URI for each invokation of the method." contains a markup error around "method"
# [19:32] <annevk> everything after it is marked up as <code>
# [19:33] <Hixie> annevk: when it's done, right now i have a few more paragraphs to do
# [19:34] <annevk> fair enough
# [19:34] <Hixie> it'd be done last week if i hadn't started feeling ill over the weekend and then had the csswg meeting this week
# [19:35] <Hixie> markup should be fixed
# [19:36] <Philip`> (For that quote: "Did you mean: invocation")
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# [19:39] <othermaciej> wow, Gerv got really worked up over codecs
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# [21:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: is <video> v1 going to have a default scriptless way to start and stop the video?
# [21:32] <annevk> contextmenu
# [21:34] <hsivonen> I think v1 should, by default, allow controller UI on hover and at minimum allow play/stop without script, e.g. by clicking the video.
# [21:35] <hsivonen> disabling these should be done by the script when the script wants to take over
# [21:35] <hsivonen> if minimum default UI isn't in v1, it is going to hurt later on
# [21:35] <hsivonen> and disabling the UI via an attribute is bad, because it isn't known if scripts will run
# [21:36] <hsivonen> s/at minimum allow/at minimum require/
# [21:38] <annevk> the idea is to enable the UI through an attribute
# [21:40] <hsivonen> annevk: I disagree then. I haven't read all the <video> messages, yet, so I've been hesitant to send my UI-related opinions to the list
# [21:40] <Hixie> we're already past v1
# [21:40] <om_lunch> I don't think you want both UA ui and custom script-driven UI on the same element
# [21:40] * om_lunch is now known as othermaciej
# [21:40] <Hixie> but we're going to have a declarative way of enabling ui, yes
# [21:40] <othermaciej> (good day gentlemen)
# [21:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: why not script-based disabling of the UI?
# [21:40] <Hixie> or that
# [21:40] <Hixie> same idea basically
# [21:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: more reliable
# [21:41] <Hixie> i agree the second is more reliable
# [21:41] <Hixie> it also causes flicker though
# [21:41] <othermaciej> the conditions under which you have video but not script seem unlikely
# [21:41] <othermaciej> except for people with a script phobia that exceeds their desire to successfully browse the web
# [21:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: not if the spec gives guidance that the UI should not change the dimensions of the replaced element
# [21:42] <hsivonen> e.g. it should be superimposed on hover as in iTunes or full-screen QuickTime Player
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# [21:42] <othermaciej> doesn't that go a bit too far in mandating the UI?
# [21:43] <othermaciej> especially since very little web-based video has a UI like that currently?
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# [21:43] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the use case is that you aren't youtube and just want to include video to illustrate some prose
# [21:43] <othermaciej> hsivonen: in which case you say <video ui=on> or whatever
# [21:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: considering all the issues Apple's own docs have had to cover about the movie controller height, I'm pretty convinced that a superimposed UI is the way to go
# [21:44] <othermaciej> hsivonen: well, the HTML spec seems like a bad place for novelties in UI design
# [21:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it is not novel. QuickTime supports it already
# [21:45] <othermaciej> can you point me to a web video with hover controls?
# [21:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: we're not mandating ui (what if the ui is that the controls are in another window, and the window can dock to hte <video>, and...)
# [21:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: but i'm sure there's a good solution for this, i'll look into it when i'm doing fixing looping and seeking
# [21:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: sure, but you could mandate that the UI mustn't change the size of the replaced element rectangle
# [21:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: opera's second <video> element demo implements their ui by hovering over the video :-)
# [21:46] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I don't have Web examples off the top of my head although I have a feeling that I've seen such Flash
# [21:47] <annevk> Hixie, we have a native UI or you mean controls done by the page?
# [21:47] <hsivonen> othermaciej: anyway, the precedent I'm citing is iTunes
# [21:47] * annevk should prolly download some internal builds...
# [21:47] <othermaciej> hey, I don't think hover UI is bad or wrong, I just think it's not the norm, so saying UAs are required to do it is inappropriate (even more so than normal mandating of UI)
# [21:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: how would you otherwise deal with the size of the replaced element rectangle staying predictable?
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# [21:50] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'm guessing default UI controls are most likely to be desirable in cases where you are not doing extensive pixel-perfect styling; but regardless, as long as there is a way to set the size of the video content box, I think that is good enough
# [21:50] <Hixie> annevk: native
# [21:50] <Hixie> oh
# [21:50] <Hixie> uh
# [21:51] <Hixie> "we" = oper
# [21:51] <Hixie> a
# [21:51] <Hixie> you have html controls by the page
# [21:51] <Hixie> which overlay the <video>
# [21:51] <annevk> we should prolly unify the <video> events and progress events...
# [21:51] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I don't know if the QuickTime for Windows controller is now as tall as the Mac version, but in the past it wasn't and it sucked big time for QuickTime embedding
# [21:51] <Hixie> they are
# [21:51] <annevk> Hixie, ah ok
# [21:51] <annevk> progress events doesn't have "stalled" and "begin" is "loadstart"
# [21:52] <Hixie> they have 'begin' last i checked
# [21:52] <Hixie> 'stalled' is new, yes
# [21:52] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.10
# [21:52] <Hixie> but that's video-specific probably
# [21:52] <Hixie> when did begin become loadstart
# [21:52] <Hixie> weird
# [21:52] <Hixie> ok
# [21:52] <Hixie> well the idea is that they are synced
# [21:53] <annevk> k
# [21:53] <Hixie> i'll fix it again when one of the two drafts is more stable
# [21:53] <Hixie> (either one)
# [21:53] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I agree it's annoying - default controller will probably only be useful for cases like having it as a <figure> in the middle of a blog post where you don't care about metrics of the whole element
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# [21:54] <othermaciej> is "stalled" really needed?
# [21:54] <othermaciej> isn't what you really care about current expectation of playability, not network transfer rate?
# [21:54] <hsivonen> othermaciej: authors tend to care about metrics anyway when they are happy with non-scripted play control
# [21:55] <annevk> maybe <figure> around <video> can imply ui=on ?
# [21:55] <othermaciej> you could still reasonably have custom controls inside a <figure>
# [21:55] <annevk> not with the current semantics of <figure>
# [21:56] <Hixie> can't find when begin became loadstart. weird.
# [21:56] <Hixie> oh well
# [21:56] <hsivonen> annevk: implicit stuff like that could become confusing
# [21:56] <othermaciej> I complained about it being "begin" I think
# [21:56] <Hixie> what should we do if 'start' or 'loopstart' or 'loopend' or 'end' are beyond the end of the clip?
# [21:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: ah :-)
# [21:57] <othermaciej> Hixie: they should be limited to [0, duration]
# [21:57] <annevk> duration isn't necessarily known
# [21:58] <Hixie> othermaciej: k
# [21:58] <othermaciej> annevk: to the author, or to the UA?
# [21:58] <othermaciej> in the Apple proposal we had language about what to do for not-yet-known duration and for unbounded streams
# [21:59] <othermaciej> (don't remember details)
# [21:59] <annevk> the UA
# [21:59] <annevk> well, author too I suppose
# [21:59] <othermaciej> unknown duration is NaN, and in that case you can't really put limits on timeline bounds, stream would be +Inf
# [22:00] <othermaciej> (I think)
# [22:00] <othermaciej> I'm not sure all the features have been carefully considered in light of streaming
# [22:00] <annevk> i hope someone will scream in case of conflict :)
# [22:01] <othermaciej> well, not a lot of people have been doing close review of the details
# [22:01] <othermaciej> Apple folks will definitely continue to review
# [22:01] <othermaciej> I think we will also be proposing some more features based on our open issues doc
# [22:02] <annevk> I wonder how captioning will work
# [22:02] <annevk> some kind of external file?
# [22:02] <othermaciej> accessibility is one of the first things we want to address
# [22:02] <othermaciej> multimedia formats can have timed text tracks
# [22:02] <othermaciej> in multiple languages even
# [22:02] <Hixie> yeah i need to do a careful review to handle unbounded and unknown duration
# [22:03] <othermaciej> the tricky part is how to select which tracks to play
# [22:03] <Hixie> still, one thing at a time :-)
# [22:03] <annevk> yeah, I heard chaals ask for multilangual support
# [22:03] <othermaciej> they can also have multi-language soundtracks
# [22:04] <hsivonen> annevk: the WHATWG probably should avoid reinventing captioning
# [22:04] <Hixie> good lord yes
# [22:04] <hsivonen> annevk: it has already been specced for the Ogg family and for the MP4 family
# [22:04] <Hixie> i was hoping that we'd just let the UA offer the UI for that in the context menu (egg)
# [22:04] <Hixie> eg, even
# [22:04] <othermaciej> what we need is support for controlling the captioning already in video
# [22:05] <othermaciej> but not, IMO, a new format for captions
# [22:05] <hsivonen> although Apple's implementation exhibits serious suckage if the filename ends in .mp4 instead of .3gp
# [22:05] <hsivonen> (doesn't make sense)
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# [22:05] <othermaciej> really? what happens?
# [22:06] <othermaciej> does it work for .m4v?
# [22:06] <hsivonen> othermaciej: things become rediculously CPU-intesive and therefore potentially slow
# [22:06] <hsivonen> dunno
# [22:06] * hsivonen looks up markp's post
# [22:06] <othermaciej> that's really weird
# [22:08] <hsivonen> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/07/27/imagination#comment-7180
# [22:08] <hsivonen> also http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/07/23/video-howto
# [22:10] <othermaciej> well, I'll point it out to our media guys
# [22:10] <met_> annevk, http://glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?2007/03/28/3391-answer-to-anne-van-kesteren
# [22:11] <othermaciej> I don't think generic MPEG-4 should imply codec restrictions, but maybe it does for some reason
# [22:11] <annevk> met_, I saw, but wasn't entirely sure what he meant
# [22:11] <met_> still not read it fully
# [22:12] <hsivonen> othermaciej: IIRC, the container has an artificial restriction so that you mustn't put in non-MPEG (or non-MPEG-4?) video and audio
# [22:12] <hsivonen> othermaciej: .3gp stretches the audio side to allow AMR
# [22:12] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-link doesn't seem to solve the issues I pointed out, but maybe he meant something else...
# [22:13] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I tried to get the media folks to explain it to me - apparently, the "ISO Base File Format" has no restrictions, but MPEG-4 also includes specs of restricted versions and descriptions of how to include certain codecs
# [22:15] <met_> annevk, just read is, feel littel confused too
# [22:15] <met_> s/is/it/
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# [22:27] <Hixie> i just regenned the spec
# [22:27] <Hixie> there are open issues (like when to apply 'start')
# [22:29] <annevk> it doesn't deal with setting loopCount
# [22:29] <annevk> is there a document btw that explains the need for looping for video?
# [22:31] <othermaciej> hsivonen: audio/mpeg4-generic MIME type might have worked in markp's case
# [22:32] <hsivonen> othermaciej: he seems to assume download followed by MIME-unaware playing from the disk
# [22:32] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that's what I did to confirm the issue last year
# [22:33] <Hixie> we're gonna have to deal with seeking to arbitrary points
# [22:33] <Hixie> i thought it did deal with setting loopcount
# [22:33] <Hixie> but i'll look after lunch
# [22:33] <Hixie> we're gonna have to deal with seeking to points that aren't in the media, rather (e.g. because the end is unknown)
# [22:33] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't know if there is an extension corresponding to that MIME type
# [22:34] <othermaciej> I guess the real conflict is serving on web vs. supporting on ipod
# [22:34] <annevk> Hixie, well, setting loopCount to 0 for instance
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# [22:36] <annevk> hmm, maybe I should study the algorithm more closely
# [22:48] <annevk> raman makes a good point about versus
# [22:50] <annevk> (and several other good points in related threads)
# [22:51] <annevk> oh, I suppose I should have said that in #html-wg ...
# [22:51] * annevk schrugs
# [22:53] <othermaciej> I need to figure out what people mean by "extensibility"
# [22:54] <othermaciej> I'm not sure they all mean the same thing
# [22:54] <annevk> <object>
# [22:54] <othermaciej> I don't think that is what they mean
# [22:54] <othermaciej> they want to be able to add tags
# [22:54] <annevk> or as howcome recently said: <object>
# [22:55] <annevk> oh, right
# [22:55] <othermaciej> but I'm not sure who they want to be able to add them, who should see them, and what effects adding has (styling? API? effect on conformance checkers?)
# [22:55] <othermaciej> I need to understand this to know if the right answer is "use XBL"
# [22:55] <annevk> mnot from Y! wants random elements (maybe namespaced) he can hang behavior to himself
# [22:56] <annevk> raman from Google seems to want markup that can trigger a plugin that renders the markup
# [22:56] <annevk> (prolly similar to how you can have inline SVG in HTML in IE trigger the Adobe player)
# [22:56] <hsivonen> annevk: mnot? on which list?
# [22:57] <annevk> his blog I think
# [22:57] <hsivonen> oh
# [22:57] <othermaciej> I think binary plugin APIs would be out of scope
# [22:57] <annevk> and in person (otherwise / too)
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# [22:57] <othermaciej> hanging behavior or styling off an element, the author can already do with CSS+JS; XBL will provide a better way
# [22:57] <annevk> othermaciej, it's a processing instruction
# [22:58] <annevk> but yeah, I don't think we should specify something like that
# [22:58] <othermaciej> annevk: specifying the PI is pretty useless without a spec for how the plugins work, isn't it?
# [22:59] <annevk> IE supports namespaces in text/html through a PI. A plugin can hook into a namespace
# [22:59] <annevk> I think that's sort of how it works
# [22:59] <othermaciej> sure, but what's the API for how you provide DOM elements and hook into the layout?
# [23:00] <othermaciej> I'm assuming it's some ActiveX thing
# [23:00] <annevk> oh, dunno
# [23:02] <annevk> I'm not really convinced with the extensibility stuff. Having the community in total control of the language seems better.
# [23:02] * othermaciej shrugs
# [23:03] <othermaciej> it sounds more like a feature request than a design principle
# [23:03] <othermaciej> though HTML does have some support for extensibility, via class and defined handling for unknown elements
# [23:04] * annevk wonders how you'd do simplified markup yet keeping all the features
# [23:04] <othermaciej> a lot of wikis do it by also letting you include HTML markup
# [23:05] <othermaciej> which presumably you use in case of anything hard
# [23:05] <othermaciej> but that makes it pretty hard to define parsing
# [23:05] <annevk> quite
# [23:06] <annevk> "architectural framework"
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# [23:07] * annevk isn't sure how people can use that phrase lightly
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# [23:21] <annevk> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-xml2007predictions.html
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# [23:33] <Hixie> annevk: as far as i can tell, changing loopCount is taken care of.
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# [23:45] <othermaciej> I'm surprised that IBM page doesn't mention HTML5 or the new HTML working group at all
# [23:46] <othermaciej> oh, it's Elliotte Rusty Harold
# [23:47] <hasather> othermaciej: it does mention HTML5. Also, it's from february so the new WG wasn't born
# [23:48] <Hixie> it says "I don't see a big future for the WHAT Working Group's Web Forms 2.0. It's got some nice bells and whistles, but it doesn't change anything."
# [23:48] <hasather> doesn't change anything? Right
# [23:49] <Hixie> it has some other amusing quotes
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# [23:50] <bewest> actually that's a compliment, isn't it?
# [23:50] <bewest> nice bells and whistles and doesn't change anything
# [23:50] <bewest> isn't that the goal?
# [23:52] <Dashiva> Some pavement for the cowpaths was part of the plan too, I think
# [23:53] <Hixie> bewest: yeah that's why i quoted it. It exactly described what we tried to do, and said we succeeded.
# [23:53] <Hixie> score!
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# [23:56] <bewest> yeah
# [23:56] <bewest> high fives all around
# [23:58] <tylerr> Hixie: Was that the "The Future is XHTML2" article?
# [23:58] <Hixie> hm?
# [23:59] <bewest> actually, it seems this author is into technology for technology's sake
# [23:59] <Dashiva> He seems to like the letter x a lot
# [23:59] <bewest> yeah... for a killer app to be truly successful, you probably wouldn't know what technology it used
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# Session Close: Thu Mar 29 00:00:00 2007

The end :)