/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 10 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> Some people explained it to me mean that when <canvas> goes to the W3C Apple will play nicely
  4. # [00:00] <annevk> But I'm no lawyer
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> SimonW: i'd ignore it and then if you get a question about it just say that now the work is under the patent policy at w3c, there's no problem.
  6. # [00:01] <SimonW> cool, shall do
  7. # [00:01] <Philip`> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/canvas-developers/message/371 has a comment
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  16. # [00:28] <Hixie> right that's checked in
  17. # [00:28] <annevk> Hixie, I suppose you want a feature that turns that commit log into a <ul> or something?
  18. # [00:29] <Hixie> hah no
  19. # [00:29] <Hixie> i hope i never check in so much at once again
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  21. # [00:30] <Hixie> oh wow it feels so much better to not have such a huge checkin pending
  22. # [00:43] <annevk> it should prolly be defined when an element is in a document
  23. # [00:43] <annevk> for <source>
  24. # [00:44] <annevk> another thing that seems to be lacking is requirements on what happens when a media element is inserted or removed
  25. # [00:44] <Hixie> it's there
  26. # [00:44] <annevk> <source> causes implicit loading, but <video src> doesn't seem to do so
  27. # [00:44] <Hixie> yes it does
  28. # [00:44] <Hixie> it's there somewhere
  29. # [00:45] <Hixie> i wrote it! i swear!
  30. # [00:45] <Hixie> :-)
  31. # [00:45] <Hixie> "in a document" is a problem i don't want to look at too closely yet
  32. # [00:45] <Hixie> "If a media element whose networkState has the value EMPTY is inserted into a document, user agents must implicitly invoke the load() method on the media element as soon as all other scripts have finished executing. Any exceptions raised must be ignored."
  33. # [00:46] <annevk> i see
  34. # [00:46] <annevk> cheers
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  36. # [01:01] <ianloic> hey
  37. # [01:01] <ianloic> if we want to expose functionality in our user agent that doesn't match any existing APIs what should we do?
  38. # [01:01] <ianloic> right now we're planning on just exposing a global object
  39. # [01:02] <Hixie> depends on the api
  40. # [01:02] <ianloic> I'm trying to work out the Right way to expose events.
  41. # [01:02] <Hixie> whatever you do make sure to prefix the api names with the name of your vendor
  42. # [01:02] <Hixie> what's the api, if i may ask?
  43. # [01:02] <ianloic> well, we're a music player - initially it'll be play/pause/playURL and an interface to get the currently playing track
  44. # [01:03] <ianloic> later it'll be richer integration
  45. # [01:03] <ianloic> (this is in Songbird)
  46. # [01:03] <Hixie> sounds like something for Window, yeah. You probably want window.songbirdPlay(), or window.songbird.play(), etc al
  47. # [01:03] <Hixie> et al, even
  48. # [01:04] * Quits: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-8ec6a5f27e5b67a0) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  49. # [01:04] <ianloic> the goal is to allow web sites to implement something with the functionality of the iTunes music store, or Pandora against your own library or applications like that
  50. # [01:04] <ianloic> we'd ideally like to produce something that could be adopted by other vendors. I'm a little hesitant to push our product name into the API
  51. # [01:05] <Hixie> (using your vendor name is important to prevent future official apis from clashing with you, and giving you problems)
  52. # [01:05] <Hixie> once you have implementation experience, you would come to a standards organisation and propose it as a standard api
  53. # [01:05] <Hixie> and it would change in incompatible ways, probably
  54. # [01:06] <Hixie> at which point you'd be screwed if you hadn't used vendor prefixes first
  55. # [01:06] <ianloic> true dat
  56. # [01:06] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@5352CE6F.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  57. # [01:07] <ianloic> I just resubscribed to the whatwg list since there seems to be a bunch of audio/video work going on and we have some different requirements/interests in that than a normal browsery user agent
  58. # [01:07] * Joins: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-771bc13fd99bc3df)
  59. # [01:07] <Hixie> your input would be very welcome
  60. # [01:07] <ianloic> Hixie, so where would you attach events? To the window?
  61. # [01:08] <Hixie> as i'm actively working on that right now
  62. # [01:08] <ianloic> very good!
  63. # [01:08] <Hixie> events that affect the entire environment would be dispatched at the Window object or the root element or both, yeah
  64. # [01:08] <ianloic> ok cool
  65. # [01:08] <ianloic> the storage event is on the body tag though isn't it?
  66. # [01:09] <othermaciej> ianloic: you can (in theory) make any arbitrary object an event target
  67. # [01:10] <Hixie> firing an event at the body element means that it'll fire at the body element, and probably bubble up to the window (if it's a bubbling event), and if there is no body, it's instead fired straight at the Document and bubbles to the Window
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  69. # [01:10] <ianloic> othermaciej, that's true. I wonder how well that's supported by the various js libraries people are using.
  70. # [01:11] * ianloic nods.
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  74. # [01:14] <Lachy> good morning
  75. # [01:14] <Hixie> hey
  76. # [01:15] <ianloic> jeebus these <video> threads are long, and I don't even care about codec choices
  77. # [01:15] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video is the spec so far
  78. # [01:18] <ianloic> hmm, I can't remember what it was I felt was missing when I read that before
  79. # [01:18] <ianloic> I'll have to think about this a bit
  80. # [01:26] <othermaciej> it's becoming much more thorough than the original version
  81. # [01:26] <ianloic> cool
  82. # [01:27] <othermaciej> you may also find this interesting: http://webkit.org/specs/HTML_Timed_Media_Elements.html
  83. # [01:27] <othermaciej> although Hixie is rapidly folding much of that content into the whatwg spec, generally improving it in the process
  84. # [01:28] <othermaciej> most of the mailing list discussion has been a waste of electrons
  85. # [01:28] <Hixie> most of the mailing list discussion has been about codecs
  86. # [01:28] <ianloic> othermaciej, yeah, that does look interesting
  87. # [01:29] <ianloic> yeah, I really really don't care about codecs
  88. # [01:29] <ianloic> the fact is that everyone will ship with mpeg 1/2/4 support
  89. # [01:29] <Dashiva> um
  90. # [01:29] <KevinMarks> for some value of 4
  91. # [01:30] <ianloic> KevinMarks, well, yeah
  92. # [01:30] <othermaciej> and for some value of ship, which may include "not ship"
  93. # [01:31] <ianloic> ok, so let me rephrase that a little: user agents will just build on top of the platform's media playback system which will support all the common formats
  94. # [01:31] <Dashiva> Which requires the user to acquire codecs
  95. # [01:31] <ianloic> Dashiva, which is basically automatic these days isn't it?
  96. # [01:31] <Dashiva> Not quite
  97. # [01:32] <ianloic> ok - I'm only really familiar with the Linux world.
  98. # [01:32] <Lachy> I stopped reading that codec discussion about 160 messages ago. I assume no _new_ arguments were introduced since then?
  99. # [01:32] <Dashiva> I think they've mostly stopped arguing
  100. # [01:32] <Dashiva> Now they're talking about defining the codec parameters and somesuch
  101. # [01:32] <ianloic> Lachy, all I read was that maciej is conspiring against us all...
  102. # [01:33] <othermaciej> ianloic: Firefox currently appears to plan to ship native support for Ogg/Theora/Vorbis, and may later also support OS-native codec stacks
  103. # [01:33] <Philip`> ianloic: The only way I could find to play a MPEG-4 (actually Xvid) video on my university's Linux computers was by compiling mplayer from source, which wasn't particularly automatic
  104. # [01:33] <othermaciej> yes, Gervase has finally unmasked my evil for all to see
  105. # [01:34] <Dashiva> Next week it'll be revealed that othermaciej and chris are really identical twins
  106. # [01:34] <othermaciej> am I the evil twin?
  107. # [01:34] <ianloic> othermaciej, oh bizare! I wonder why they'd want to ship ogg. I guess they must believe the patent claims.
  108. # [01:34] <Dashiva> That's what the debate will be about
  109. # [01:35] <ianloic> Philip`, oh really? weird.
  110. # [01:35] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  111. # [01:35] <ianloic> I think the baseline codec should be animated image/gif
  112. # [01:35] <ianloic> that's something we can all agree on
  113. # [01:35] <othermaciej> ianloic: they consider it reasonably patent-safe, and like the lack of known patents that cost money to license
  114. # [01:35] <Philip`> I think it should be animated ASCII art
  115. # [01:35] <Dashiva> Someone already suggested avi/jpg or whatever it's called
  116. # [01:36] <othermaciej> animated gif should probably be supported, but it's not actually a *useful* baseline
  117. # [01:36] <othermaciej> I mean, it's not gonna get people to switch from Flash
  118. # [01:36] <ianloic> true
  119. # [01:36] <Dashiva> Might be useful to establish if that should be a guideline or not: should <video> outperform flash?
  120. # [01:37] <othermaciej> what do you mean by "outperform"
  121. # [01:37] <othermaciej> smaller bitrate for the same video quality?
  122. # [01:37] <Dashiva> Be considered a generally superior alternative by relevant metrics
  123. # [01:37] <Philip`> What version of Flash? (I remember someone saying newer versions had a better codec, but people don't use it because it's not as widely installed; but it's far more widely installed than <video>)
  124. # [01:37] * Quits: h3h (n=h3h@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) ("|")
  125. # [01:37] <Dashiva> Not just codec, but ease of use, distribution, content creation, market penetration, etc
  126. # [01:37] <ianloic> Philip`, modern flash uses On2 VP6 which is essentially equivalent to mpeg4
  127. # [01:38] <ianloic> Dashiva, flv probably has the best market penetration of any codec
  128. # [01:38] <othermaciej> equivalent?
  129. # [01:38] <othermaciej> in what sense?
  130. # [01:38] <ianloic> othermaciej, in that you can do a lossless transform between them (for some profile of mpeg4)
  131. # [01:38] <othermaciej> the bitstream is not compatible, and its compression ratio is not as good as H.264
  132. # [01:39] <Dashiva> I think many people mean h263 or older when they say mpeg, and explicitly h264 for that
  133. # [01:39] <ianloic> othermaciej, oh really? I must be confused :(
  134. # [01:40] <ianloic> othermaciej, there are tools to do that transformation (flv to some form of mpeg4)
  135. # [01:40] <ianloic> othermaciej, http://vixynet.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/vixynet/
  136. # [01:40] <othermaciej> flv is usually h.263
  137. # [01:41] <othermaciej> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLV
  138. # [01:41] <othermaciej> well, Sorensen Spark, which is a slight variant of H.263
  139. # [01:41] <Dashiva> Are there fears of patent issues related to containers (not the codecs and contents)?
  140. # [01:41] <othermaciej> Flash 8 supports VP6 but most flash video on the web does not use that
  141. # [01:41] <ianloic> oh really?
  142. # [01:42] <othermaciej> anyway, codec conversation == boring
  143. # [01:42] <ianloic> I've been assuming that most of the web is VP6 not sorenson
  144. # [01:42] <ianloic> true
  145. # [01:42] <ianloic> we could spice it up by inventing new acronyms
  146. # [01:42] <ianloic> but there are more entertaining alternatives
  147. # [01:44] <othermaciej> having One True Codec would be great but seems fairly unpossible at this stage
  148. # [01:46] <KevinMarks> youtube is the h263 variant
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  151. # [02:55] <Hixie> hm, go figure
  152. # [02:55] <Hixie> someone actually likes SMIL
  153. # [02:56] <othermaciej> yeah, I was surprised to hear someone describe it as great for authors
  154. # [02:56] <Hixie> certainly isn't what i've heard from authors
  155. # [03:09] <KevinMarks> the first SMIL spec wasn't bad; it went stray after that
  156. # [03:10] <Hixie> even the first is a bit over the top
  157. # [03:10] <Hixie> at least for a web spec that's expected to interact with html, etc
  158. # [03:10] <Hixie> which may not have been the intent
  159. # [03:11] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[ZzZz]
  160. # [03:12] <KevinMarks> I don't think it was meant to interact with HTML; it defined a 'text' element, not an 'html' element
  161. # [03:15] <Hixie> that's fine, but people are trying to use it with HTML (and SVG)
  162. # [03:15] <othermaciej> I think in the original SMIL era people did not realize how much HTML would become the basis for all sorts of content, not just what people thought of as documents
  163. # [03:16] <KevinMarks> yes, I think that was true
  164. # [03:17] <KevinMarks> compare the goals of SMIL 1.0 with SMIL 2.1
  165. # [03:19] <Hixie> Lachy: yt?
  166. # [03:20] <Lachy> yo!
  167. # [03:20] <Hixie> Lachy: can you grab the text for the following questions on the whatwg.org front page and stick them in the FAQ?:
  168. # [03:20] <Hixie> What are "Web Applications"?
  169. # [03:20] <Hixie> Aren't "Web Applications" already possible?
  170. # [03:20] <Lachy> ok
  171. # [03:20] <Hixie> and What exactly are you working on?
  172. # [03:20] <Hixie> feel free to fix them or change them or whatever
  173. # [03:20] <Hixie> i'm about to nuke them front the front page
  174. # [03:20] <ajnewbold> I made a web application today
  175. # [03:21] <ajnewbold> it's a brain! http://newbold.name/brain/
  176. # [03:22] <Hixie> lachy: if you haven't got them yet they're now at http://www.whatwg.org/index.old
  177. # [03:22] <Lachy> I just copied them
  178. # [03:22] <Hixie> k
  179. # [03:22] * othermaciej wonders how the "changes from HTML4" page is going
  180. # [03:23] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8f9f98d49137a889) ("The computer fell asleep")
  181. # [03:25] <othermaciej> hmm, looks pretty good
  182. # [03:26] * Quits: mw22 (n=chatzill@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  183. # [03:27] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-100-245.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("Leaving")
  184. # [03:28] <Lachy> Hixie, done http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/#web-apps
  185. # [03:28] <Lachy> I'll review and edit them later
  186. # [03:30] <Hixie> cool thanks
  187. # [03:31] <Philip`> Hmm, it wasn't at all obvious that the "FAQ: WHATWG i HTML 5" link was Polish until I tried it - I thought the "i" in the middle was just a mistake
  188. # [03:31] <othermaciej> I wouldn't have realized it either
  189. # [03:32] * Joins: jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  190. # [03:34] <othermaciej> hmm, I can think of lots of things that could go in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Changes_from_HTML4 but I am hesitating to do all the work to update it nicely
  191. # [03:36] <Lachy> Philip`: I just noticed that and I'm going to adjust the title to say (Polish) at the end
  192. # [03:37] <Lachy> done
  193. # [03:38] <Philip`> Okay, thanks :-)
  194. # [03:38] * Joins: jonbarnett (n=barnett@74.194.13.109)
  195. # [03:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: dump your ideas into the discussion page
  196. # [03:39] <Hixie> ok, WHATWG has a twitter account now
  197. # [03:39] <Hixie> cunningly named WHATWG
  198. # [03:39] <Philip`> (The links in the "What exactly are you working on?" section don't work)
  199. # [03:40] <Hixie> the whatwg.org front page automatically updates from the twitter status
  200. # [03:40] * Lachy adds WHATWG as a twitter friend
  201. # [03:40] <Hixie> and my commit script automatically twitters the commit message when i check in
  202. # [03:40] <Lachy> oh, awesome!
  203. # [03:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: ah, there's a good idea
  204. # [03:46] * Joins: ericcarlson (n=ericcarl@adsl-67-115-144-162.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  205. # [03:49] * Hixie kills the tabs on the front page
  206. # [03:50] <Lachy> Hey Hixie (and anyone else who wants to), could you please spare a few minutes to review my responses to some interview questions from the Web Standards Group? http://lachy.id.au/temp/wsg
  207. # [03:50] <Hixie> i can do that after dinner, sure
  208. # [03:50] <Hixie> bbiab
  209. # [03:50] <Lachy> ok, sure.
  210. # [03:55] * Joins: marcosc (n=chatzill@131.181.148.226)
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  216. # [04:16] <Hixie> right let's see
  217. # [04:18] <Hixie> XHTML2 only started in 2002?
  218. # [04:18] <Hixie> wow
  219. # [04:18] <Hixie> lachy: you have a sentence that goes "However, ..., but ..." which is awkward
  220. # [04:18] <Lachy> did it start earlier than that? I think that was the first draft i found
  221. # [04:19] <Lachy> yeah, I should fix that
  222. # [04:19] <Hixie> dunno, you have internal access now :-)
  223. # [04:21] <Hixie> "there are over 300 participants already" is ambiguous about which group you mean
  224. # [04:21] <Hixie> i'd write "there are over 300 participants in the W3C group already"
  225. # [04:21] <Hixie> or some such
  226. # [04:21] <Hixie> though if you say that you might want to also point out that there are over 700 in the whatwg :-)
  227. # [04:25] <Hixie> "These days, the W3C process is quite strict." the process is... doesn't mean much has changed though
  228. # [04:26] <Hixie> other than that looks good
  229. # [04:32] <Lachy> Fixed the participant issue and the "however/but" issue
  230. # [04:33] <Lachy> should I change anything about the W3C process?
  231. # [04:33] * Joins: ericcarlson (n=ericcarl@adsl-67-115-144-162.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  232. # [04:35] <othermaciej> your answers seemed generally good
  233. # [04:35] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-252.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  234. # [04:36] <Lachy> the first public draft of XHTMl2 is 20020805, I'm trying to find anything in the member section that would indicate when they actually started
  235. # [04:36] <Hixie> look in w3c-html-wg around that time maybe
  236. # [04:41] <Lachy> that's where I'm looking
  237. # [04:41] <Lachy> I found a few brief mentions of XHTML2 in a few threads, but nothing linking to an editors draft or anything
  238. # [04:42] <Lachy> I might just say it began around 2001-2002
  239. # [04:46] * Hixie updates the whatwg.org front page
  240. # [04:46] <Hixie> it's been dragged kicking and screaming into 2007
  241. # [04:46] <Lachy> I changed it to "XHTML2 has been in <em>secret</em> development since around 2001–2002 and..."
  242. # [04:46] <Hixie> hah
  243. # [04:46] <Hixie> nice
  244. # [04:49] <othermaciej> the new layout doesn't look right in Safari 2.0.4
  245. # [04:49] <Hixie> that's ironic, given that i used safari trunk to do it
  246. # [04:49] <Hixie> can't win, i guess :-P
  247. # [04:49] <Hixie> maybe you should add opt-in versioning in your browser, i hear that solves this kind of problem
  248. # [04:50] * Hixie fixes
  249. # [04:50] * othermaciej snickers
  250. # [04:51] <othermaciej> we'll only render it right if you specifically request IE8 mode
  251. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> Lachy - as far as the "They include representatives from 4 major browser vendors: Mozilla, Opera, Safari and IE" part, Nokia also makes a browser and is a member of the HTML WG.
  252. # [04:53] <Hixie> i wouldn't call nokia a "major browser vendor"
  253. # [04:53] <othermaciej> so does AOL, if you want to get technical
  254. # [04:53] <Hixie> and the w3c...
  255. # [04:54] <Lachy> they're the 4 that most people will care about. There's no need to list every single particpant
  256. # [04:54] <ianloic> I wonder if Nokia or Apple have shipped more browsers...
  257. # [04:54] <Lachy> although, I could link to the participant list
  258. # [04:54] <Hixie> ianloic: better question, which has had the most page views of public web content with their browsers?
  259. # [04:54] <othermaciej> Nokia has probably shipped more total browser units, but likely fewer of browsers actually written by them rather than licensed
  260. # [04:55] <othermaciej> but all the browsers they shipped probably add up to less use share than Safari
  261. # [04:55] <othermaciej> if web stats can be at all trusted
  262. # [04:55] <othermaciej> gotta roll
  263. # [04:55] <othermaciej> later folks
  264. # [04:55] <Hixie> later
  265. # [04:55] <ianloic> Hixie, yeah, they're both probably important metrics
  266. # [04:55] <ianloic> othermaciej, later mate
  267. # [04:55] <Lachy> bye
  268. # [04:55] <Hixie> install base isn't a particularily interesting metric
  269. # [04:55] <Hixie> by install base, lynx has huge numbers.
  270. # [04:56] <ianloic> Hixie, not that huge - but probably similar to Safari
  271. # [04:56] <Hixie> every linux server out there has lynx on it
  272. # [04:57] <ianloic> Hixie, it's not installed by default on Debian & Ubuntu...
  273. # [04:57] <Hixie> is links?
  274. # [04:57] <ianloic> Hixie, nope
  275. # [04:57] <Hixie> elinks?
  276. # [04:57] <ianloic> nada
  277. # [04:57] <Hixie> Emacs/W3?
  278. # [04:57] <ianloic> not even w3m
  279. # [04:57] <ianloic> not even wget
  280. # [04:57] <Hixie> wow, how are you supposed to browse the web through a shell on those boxes? how retarded.
  281. # [04:57] <ianloic> I'm not even sure about telnet
  282. # [04:57] <ianloic> "apt-get install lynx"
  283. # [04:58] <Hixie> in any case
  284. # [04:58] <Hixie> usage is what matters, not install base
  285. # [05:00] <ianloic> I think install base can be an interesting number. Perhaps Nokia would have interesting ideas about why people aren't using the browsers they're shipping. Certainly ui, network speed and cost are factors but perhaps there are issues at the protocol and formats level that affect it.
  286. # [05:00] <ianloic> And that's only kind of a devil's advocate position
  287. # [05:00] <Lachy> Hixie, indeed. If installed base mattered, then IE would have 100% of all Windows machines, but we know that there are many windows users that use other browsers
  288. # [05:01] <ianloic> Lachy, but Nokia has customers who chose to buy a product with web browsing as a feature, but for some reason they're not using it.
  289. # [05:01] <Lachy> + a small percentage of Mac and Linux web that run IE through virtualisation or other means
  290. # [05:01] <ianloic> Lachy, those people are interesting
  291. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> support for real Web applications is also what matters. Nokia's Webkit-based browser has CSS, Javascript/XHR support.
  292. # [05:02] <ianloic> oh nice!
  293. # [05:02] <ianloic> my mobile browser didn't do any of that stuff :(
  294. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> and I'm not sure why it's important to make the distinction of "major" browser vendors
  295. # [05:02] <Hixie> btw if anyone wants to twitter to the whatwg account for some reason (e.g. if you want to hack the blog so it twitters when there's a new post), let me know
  296. # [05:03] <Hixie> i don't want to put the password out, since then we could lose control of the account if anyone wants to be nasty
  297. # [05:03] <Lachy> we could set the blog up so that the excerpt gets twittered
  298. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> ianloic - you need to a handset you can run Opera Mobile or Nokia's S60 browser on :)
  299. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> you still using a Sidekick?
  300. # [05:04] <ianloic> MikeSmith, indeed - I'm hooked on qwerty
  301. # [05:05] <Lachy> I wonder if there's a WP-Twitter plugin
  302. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> ianloic - Nokia N61 has qwerty
  303. # [05:07] <Lachy> there seem to be plugins for publishing twitter status on the blog, but can't see any for updating twitter status
  304. # [05:07] <ianloic> MikeSmith, my carrier doesn't seem to carry it - perhaps in a couple of years :(
  305. # [05:09] <ianloic> MikeSmith, plus for a lot of the stuff I do danger's always on model works really well
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  307. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> ianloic - yeah, I know those are nice devices. they should just have better browsers on them :)
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  309. # [05:12] <Lachy> awesome! http://blog.victoriac.net/?p=87
  310. # [05:12] <ianloic> MikeSmith, true
  311. # [05:12] <ianloic> MikeSmith, also, other handsets should behave more like computers on broadband than computers on dialup :(
  312. # [05:12] <Lachy> I'll install that later. Hixie if you could provide the info I need, that would be great
  313. # [05:15] <Hixie> /msg'ed
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  323. # [05:53] <Hixie> wtf is http 405
  324. # [05:53] <Hixie> oh
  325. # [05:53] <Hixie> method not allowed
  326. # [05:53] <Hixie> why did i get that
  327. # [05:53] <Hixie> oh i know
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  329. # [06:05] <Hixie> anyone have a version of http://www.bloglines.com/images/spinner.gif which they know the provenance of?
  330. # [06:05] <Hixie> and/or that they know is public domain?
  331. # [06:09] <Lachy> Hixie, the Firefox web dev toolbar has one released under the GPL
  332. # [06:09] <Lachy> if you have it installed, see chrome://webdeveloper/content/images/content/loading.gif
  333. # [06:09] <Hixie> ooo, that works
  334. # [06:09] <Hixie> i don't
  335. # [06:13] <Lachy> do you want me to send you the image then?
  336. # [06:13] <Hixie> sure
  337. # [06:15] <Lachy> emailed it
  338. # [06:15] <Hixie> thanks
  339. # [06:18] <karlUshi> fwiw: I like smil :) implementations are far to be perfect but it's quite easy to create slideshow with it for examples.
  340. # [06:19] <Hixie> right, whatwg's twitter status can now be set from the whatwg home page
  341. # [06:20] <Lachy> cool. btw, you told me it would take 10 minutes to complete, about 1 hour ago :-)
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  343. # [06:21] <Hixie> i did other things at the same time :-)
  344. # [06:37] * ianloic curses the squishy unstable nature of XUL.
  345. # [06:37] <ianloic> or should I say, the XUL implementation
  346. # [07:01] <Hixie> why wouldn't the script on whatwg.org to update twitter work on firefox?
  347. # [07:01] <Hixie> i see nothing that would break it
  348. # [07:01] <Hixie> i'm confused
  349. # [07:02] <ianloic> Hixie, where is it?
  350. # [07:02] <Hixie> search for updateTwitter on whatwg.org
  351. # [07:03] <Hixie> for some reason the server isn't getting the status=foo stuff
  352. # [07:04] <ianloic> I don't see it on www.whatwg.org
  353. # [07:04] <Hixie> oh i have to set the content type i bet
  354. # [07:04] <Hixie> never mind
  355. # [07:07] <Hixie> ok it works
  356. # [07:07] <Hixie> all good
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  358. # [07:19] <Hixie> well, everyone seems in favour of using the whatwg spec and having me continue as editor so far
  359. # [07:23] <Lachy> I'm sure there will be someone who says no. I'm interested to see what kind of arguments they raise against it and what they put forth as an alternative
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  367. # [09:04] <othermaciej> I added some items to possibly add to the discussion page for http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Changes_from_HTML4
  368. # [09:04] <othermaciej> hey annevk
  369. # [09:05] <annevk> morning
  370. # [09:05] <othermaciej> HTML5 has now officially been proposed to the HTML WG
  371. # [09:08] <annevk> I saw, cool
  372. # [09:08] <annevk> and now we wait
  373. # [09:08] <othermaciej> perhaps Chris will have to write yet another essay
  374. # [09:10] * Quits: marcosc (n=chatzill@131.181.148.226) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  375. # [09:11] <annevk> he mentioned somewhere that he wants to move forward with XML
  376. # [09:11] <othermaciej> I liked his message where he said XHTML only failed because 80% of browsers didn't support it
  377. # [09:12] <othermaciej> I wonder which 80% that could be
  378. # [09:13] <annevk> there's an old HTML+Time proposal from Microsoft btw that covers SMIL in HTML
  379. # [09:21] <annevk> Re: changes from HTML4 page, I'll take a look later today. <input> needs to be covered indeed and the others as well probably
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  384. # [09:47] <annevk> bah, currenttime
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  388. # [09:56] <zcorpan> home again, at last
  389. # [09:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/html5/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftemp%2Fw3c-home-in-html5.html
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  391. # [09:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nice :)
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  393. # [10:00] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=112#112 anything inaccurate?
  394. # [10:02] <annevk> DOCTYPEs can also just give a public identifier
  395. # [10:02] <annevk> if it's assumed that identifier is supported by the client that reads the document
  396. # [10:02] <zcorpan> it's still a reference to a dtd
  397. # [10:03] <annevk> I'm not sure you answered his second question though
  398. # [10:03] <annevk> a DTD defines the valid structure of a document (roughly)
  399. # [10:03] <annevk> oh nm
  400. # [10:03] <zcorpan> i presumed that he really meant doctype declaration
  401. # [10:04] <zcorpan> although i think i covered both :)
  402. # [10:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://syntax.whatwg.org/ could use a note that the SGML stuff has been abandoned
  403. # [10:11] <Hixie> syntax is under fantasai's account i think
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  462. # [19:10] <ianloic> w3c's mailing list archive format sucks
  463. # [19:10] * annevk rather likes it
  464. # [19:11] <ianloic> annevk, it's not threaded so it's hard to weave through conversations in the way I like to
  465. # [19:11] <ianloic> annevk, basically now I have to go subscribe to html-public
  466. # [19:12] <annevk> you'd have to become a member first
  467. # [19:12] <ianloic> oh really?
  468. # [19:12] <ianloic> is membership still open?
  469. # [19:13] <annevk> certainly
  470. # [19:13] <annevk> see the steps here: http://blog.whatwg.org/w3c-restarts-html-effort
  471. # [19:13] <ianloic> annevk, thanks!
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  473. # [19:18] * gsnedders would rather anyone could subscribe to the W3C lists, even if not post
  474. # [19:20] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  475. # [19:20] <annevk> gsnedders, you could make feature requests...
  476. # [19:22] <othermaciej> hah, sounds like Chris Wilson *is* working on another essay
  477. # [19:22] <othermaciej> I feel bad now, giving him all these writing assignment
  478. # [19:22] <othermaciej> s
  479. # [19:22] <annevk> maybe you should teach
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  487. # [20:05] * zcorpan updates /html5-elements...
  488. # [20:06] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Apr/att-0018/entities.htm has an entity test based on IE7
  489. # [20:06] <annevk> It seems IE7 is doing reparsing though
  490. # [20:06] <annevk> &notin "becomes" &not;in and &notin; stays the "same"
  491. # [20:07] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/entities/trailing-semicolon/
  492. # [20:09] <annevk> ah cool
  493. # [20:09] <annevk> zcorpan, you got my <map> comment?
  494. # [20:10] <zcorpan> where?
  495. # [20:10] <zcorpan> can't recall anything about <map>
  496. # [20:10] <annevk> name is dropped
  497. # [20:10] <zcorpan> ah
  498. # [20:10] <zcorpan> right
  499. # [20:11] <zcorpan> but only for conformance
  500. # [20:11] <zcorpan> document conformance*
  501. # [20:12] <annevk> your list of elements is about document conformance right?
  502. # [20:12] <zcorpan> yes
  503. # [20:12] <zcorpan> thanks
  504. # [20:13] <zcorpan> i have some demos on <map id name> that could be turned into test cases also
  505. # [20:13] <annevk> <map id=bar> <map name=bar>
  506. # [20:14] <annevk> (both nested and as siblings might be interesting...)
  507. # [20:14] <zcorpan> ok
  508. # [20:15] <zcorpan> although isn't multiple ids generally undefined?
  509. # [20:15] <annevk> it doesn't define it in terms of getElementById()
  510. # [20:16] <zcorpan> i'll look closer at the <map> spec then
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  513. # [20:26] <zcorpan> html5-elements updated
  514. # [20:34] <zcorpan> the ids not being permanent is annoying. it should be possible to link to a part of the spec and assume that it will point to the same thing so long as the spec doesn't change other than editorially... why aren't the title=""s used as ids (perhaps with spaces replaced with dashes or something)?
  515. # [20:35] <zcorpan> it's not only about my list of elements -- people link to a part of the spec when discussing
  516. # [20:37] <zcorpan> (minor but still annoying ;) )
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  527. # [21:53] <othermaciej> hi everyone
  528. # [21:53] <hsivonen> hi
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  538. # [23:06] <Hixie> so can someone explain the use case for this "data attribute" idea?
  539. # [23:08] <Dashiva> declarative approach to data
  540. # [23:08] <Dashiva> Some pre-wf2 scripts had homebrew attributes for required, type, etc
  541. # [23:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: the idea is that a Web app wants to annotate a DOM node with app-specific data *and* send the in the serialization so that custom properties on the JS-level don't work
  542. # [23:10] <hsivonen> IIRC, PPK has an ALA article with a concrete case
  543. # [23:11] <Hixie> and "class" doesn't work for this because the data isn't boolean?
  544. # [23:11] <Hixie> or?
  545. # [23:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: hmm. his use cases are boolean...
  546. # [23:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://alistapart.com/articles/scripttriggers/
  547. # [23:13] <Hixie> well then
  548. # [23:13] <Hixie> use the class attribute
  549. # [23:13] <Hixie> moving on...
  550. # [23:13] <hasather> hmm, anyone else gets 403's on ALA. I've had it for severla months. Not that I care much, but it's weird
  551. # [23:14] <Dashiva> Not all booleans, no
  552. # [23:15] <Dashiva> He uses key=value to hack around it, e.g. class="large required maxlength=300"
  553. # [23:15] <othermaciej> Hixie, hsivonen: sounds like some of the cases aren't boolean
  554. # [23:16] <Hixie> ah ok
  555. # [23:16] <Hixie> well then we'll have to investigate
  556. # [23:19] <Philip`> I used a non-boolean data attribute some time ago, with a list of things somewhat like <a title="text for a tooltip/popup message" _formatted="alternative HTML-formatted text" onmouseover="scripted_tooltip_window(this)">Short uninteresting link text</a>, so it would have sensible non-JS (and non-CSS) fallback but the script could make use of more interesting data to display in its non-standard tooltip-like-thing, without having to store all that data a
  557. # [23:19] <Philip`> ... a long way away
  558. # [23:22] <Philip`> (I can probably think of better non-nonstandard ways of doing that now, but they'd seem more convoluted than just sticking an extra attribute on the element, and I couldn't think of anything better back then)
  559. # [23:24] <met_> sounds like in XUL, no restrictions in new and new attributes
  560. # [23:25] <Dashiva> Well, it's a significant step from one script data attribute to allowing arbitrary attributes with a "local" type prefix
  561. # [23:28] <met_> prefix?
  562. # [23:28] <met_> the underscore?
  563. # [23:32] <Philip`> If there's only one script data attribute, perhaps people would start doing <textarea scriptdata="maxlength=300"> (which is much clearer than scriptdata="300") or <textarea scriptdata='{"maxlength":300,"minlength":100}'>, and make their own custom parsers, which seems kind of pointless when you've already got an HTML parser that could do all the work for you
  564. # [23:33] <moeffju> use $ as a prefix?
  565. # [23:34] <moeffju> <foo $data="whee" $more="hurray">
  566. # [23:38] <met_> is $ valid in attribute name?
  567. # [23:38] <hsivonen> met_: in xml, no
  568. # [23:38] <met_> this is what i mean
  569. # [23:39] <Philip`> I think I have a mild natural distaste for using $ but that's probably just because I'm too used to Perl and code like |print qq{<foo \$data="$data">}| is not especially beautiful, which isn't a particularly valid concern...
  570. # [23:41] <Philip`> Are people trying to make HTML5 and XHTML5 as equivalently powerful as possible, and trying to minimise the exceptions like <p><ul/></p>?
  571. # [23:43] <Philip`> (If so, presumably that would rule out $ (if it's not allowed in XML) and : (if it'd mean you couldn't do a lossless HTML5->XHTML5 conversion of <div foo:bar=x>))
  572. # [23:47] <moeffju> which brings us back to underscore
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  574. # [23:52] <deltab> $ would likely interfere with some templating systems
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  577. # Session Close: Wed Apr 11 00:00:00 2007

The end :)