/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 11 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] <Hixie> hm
  4. # [00:08] <Hixie> .defaultPlaybackRate and .playbackRate
  5. # [00:16] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  6. # [00:42] <Hixie> should we have people do video.playbackRate = video.defaultPlaybackRate, or should we have a video.resetPlaybackRate() that does that?
  7. # [00:42] <Hixie> or should .play() do it?
  8. # [00:44] <moeffju> playbackRate should init to defaultPlaybackRate, and if people want to reset it, an assignment is fine, IMO
  9. # [00:45] <moeffju> play() should not automatically do it though
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  11. # [00:48] <Dashiva> Is the playbackrate linked to being in a playing state?
  12. # [00:48] <Dashiva> i.e. is it 0 when paused?
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  14. # [00:50] <Hixie> no
  15. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Then I see no reason play() should change the playbackrate. And having a reset() just to save an assignment seems a bit redundant
  16. # [00:52] <Hixie> so .defaultPlaybacRate is basically a mutable attribute with no effect, then, and just needed to note what to set the rate back to after ffwding
  17. # [00:54] <Dashiva> I'd liken it to defaultValue, defaultChecked, etc in forms. It's used for the user to restore defaults
  18. # [00:55] <nickshanks> is there a published default stylesheet for braile media? specifically I want to know which elements display without contraction by default
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  24. # [01:19] * KevinMarks reads scrollback
  25. # [01:19] <KevinMarks> why is scriptdata not just <script> and declare some variables?
  26. # [01:20] <Dashiva> Because it's linked to specific elements
  27. # [01:20] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: the idea is to attach information to an element in the markup
  28. # [01:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: any opinion on the default rate thing?
  29. # [01:20] <othermaciej> you want it as hooks on specific elements for script to attach
  30. # [01:20] <othermaciej> Hixie: have not had a chance to read yet, and in meeting at the moment
  31. # [01:20] <Hixie> k
  32. # [01:24] <KevinMarks> ah, so a replacement for the 'add piles of arbitrary attributes with ugly prefixes' model that certain js toolkits use?
  33. # [01:25] <KevinMarks> *cough* dojo *cough*
  34. # [01:25] <Dashiva> Yeah, among other things :)
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  37. # [01:48] <deltab> some reliable way of referring to the current script element would be useful
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  57. # [07:07] <Hixie> Lachy_: for jabber, i recommend bitlbee
  58. # [07:08] <Lachy_> ok, I'm looking it up
  59. # [07:16] <Lachy_> hmm. Could I have bitlbee running on my computer at home and then just connect to it with any IRC client, anywhere?
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  61. # [07:28] <Hixie> i assume so
  62. # [07:28] <Hixie> i have someone run it for me on the server i run irssi on
  63. # [07:29] <Hixie> and so irssi is always connected to it
  64. # [07:29] <Hixie> so i'm always on jabber (and aim and msn and icq) as well as being always on irc
  65. # [07:29] <gavin_> interesting
  66. # [07:29] <Hixie> and since twitter uses jabber, i'm always on twitter too
  67. # [07:29] <Hixie> and since it all runs under screen, i can connect to it multiple times from as many machines as i like
  68. # [07:30] <Hixie> without affecting my irc connections
  69. # [07:31] <gavin_> I don't really mind only being on aim/msn/jabber when I'm actually at my computer
  70. # [07:31] <gavin_> IRC is different, since I keep up with other people's discussions so I always need to be conected
  71. # [07:32] <Lachy_> awesome! There are public servers I could connect to, so I don't have to set it up myself
  72. # [07:32] <gavin_> do you trust those public servers with all your IM/IRC traffic? :)
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  74. # [07:39] <dolphinling_> So is it just me, or does perl's CGI module not even understand that html 4 exists?
  75. # [07:39] <dolphinling_> In the dtd handling, it checks for html 2.0 and html 3.2 and knows not to put an xmlns attribute in, but it doesn't check for html 4.
  76. # [07:44] <Hixie> wow
  77. # [07:44] <Hixie> check out the ocmments on http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5
  78. # [07:44] <Hixie> that's the only place i've seen negative comments, and irrational ones at that
  79. # [07:44] <Hixie> weird
  80. # [07:46] <gavin_> "The so called "œHTM 5" is a rip off from all the community work on HTML"
  81. # [07:47] <gavin_> nice
  82. # [07:48] <Hixie> they get even weirder near the end
  83. # [07:49] <gavin_> indeed, just finished reading
  84. # [07:50] <gavin_> I'm not really sure how someone can end up reaching the last commenter's conclusions
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  86. # [07:53] <Lachy_> ha! "... coupled with asshole personalities with big ego like Ian Hickson ..." :-)
  87. # [07:53] <Hixie> hey maciej, check this out: http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5
  88. # [07:53] <Hixie> the comments, specifically
  89. # [07:53] <Hixie> btw the really really funny thing about this post is that the guy who posted it is on my team at work
  90. # [07:54] * othermaciej clicks the link
  91. # [08:02] * Lachy_ is confused by those comments
  92. # [08:03] <Lachy_> They're happy that the W3C has formed the HTMLWG and that they will be working on HTML, but seem to object to the work we did on HTML
  93. # [08:04] <Lachy_> it seems to be just because it doesn't come with a nice, shiny W3C logo at the top
  94. # [08:05] <Lachy_> I bet that as soon as the HTMLWG accepts HTML5 and begins work on it, all those people who object to the WHATWG will suddendly applaud the W3C for doing such great work
  95. # [08:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: nice - although I kinda hope my marketing people don't see it and yell at me for getting embroiled in controversy; gonna read comments now
  96. # [08:09] <Lachy_> "Just to point out that web forms 2.0 has been reviewed by some W3C working goups already and rejected." -- which groups rejected it? AIUI, the XForms folks just want to take it and destroy it for themselves, not reject it
  97. # [08:10] <othermaciej> I'm curious who Mitch Niel is
  98. # [08:10] <othermaciej> Lachy_: I think it was once submitted as a Member Submission and rejected for standards track, before the WAF WG later picked it up
  99. # [08:11] <othermaciej> hah, I love the comment that blames WHATWG for reinventing things needlessly, and then cites SVG and XForms
  100. # [08:13] <othermaciej> those comments seem suspiciously pro-W3C and pro-Microsoft
  101. # [08:14] <othermaciej> hmm, Mark Arrington uses techcrunch as his URL, perhaps hoping people will mistake him for Mike Arrington
  102. # [08:19] <othermaciej> I commented, perhaps foolishly
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  104. # [08:23] <Hixie> so did i
  105. # [08:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: it wasn't ever rejected for standards track, the submission wasn't intended for standards track
  106. # [08:24] <Hixie> wonder who this Mike Arrington guy is
  107. # [08:24] <Hixie> Mark Arrington even
  108. # [08:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: everyone knows who Mike Arrington is, given the misleading URL, I'd guess Mark Arrington is a pseudonym
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  110. # [08:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: your comment is funny. "Hey! It's not just an Opera conspiracy! We're part of it too!"
  111. # [08:33] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, I didn't want Opera to get all the credit
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  115. # [08:50] <tylerr> it
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  127. # [11:04] <othermaciej> I'm surprised <http://www.digital-web.com/articles/html5_xhtml2_and_the_future_of_the_web/> didn't discuss HTML WG and the possibility of it adopting HTML5 more prominently
  128. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> othermaciej - the "W3C and HTML" section seems to do a pretty good job of making it clear.. or I guess you just mean that section should be somewhere else in the document?
  129. # [11:20] <othermaciej> the earlier parts of the document make it sound like a W3C vs. WHATWG battle
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  141. # [13:43] <SimonW> Hello all... quick question
  142. # [13:44] <SimonW> is the plan with HTML 5 still to get it working on legacy browsers using scripting?
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  144. # [13:50] <met_> SimonW, there are some projects http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers
  145. # [13:50] <met_> SimonW, eg http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/
  146. # [13:51] <SimonW> do you know if it's still an official stated aim? I remember when What WG started a few years ago they got Dean Edwards on board for exactly that
  147. # [13:51] <SimonW> thanks for the links
  148. # [13:52] <SimonW> it looks like the wf2 codebase hasn't been touched in 19 months
  149. # [13:53] <hsivonen> SimonW: in particular, making WF 2.0 work in IE6 using as script library was part of the design
  150. # [13:54] <SimonW> thanks - I'm putting a talk together for this evening, so I might throw a few more questions around later if that's OK
  151. # [13:54] <hsivonen> SimonW: to me, it seems that it is less of a design requirement for the rest of HTML5.
  152. # [13:54] <hsivonen> SimonW: however, you should recheck when Hixie is around
  153. # [13:54] <SimonW> oh - one other thing, is it fair to say that What WG was created partly in response to the <canvas> element?
  154. # [13:54] <SimonW> or was that just coincidental?
  155. # [13:55] <hsivonen> SimonW: my understanding is that Apple created <canvas> and the WHATWG were formed independently and when Mozilla and Opera showed interest in <canvas>, Apple contributed the spec
  156. # [13:56] <hsivonen> (all the recheck when Hixie is around disclaimers apply)
  157. # [13:56] <SimonW> I'll do that, thanks
  158. # [13:57] <SimonW> last thing for the moment: where did the name "HTML 5" come from? Is it just a nickname for the combination of WF2 and WA1?
  159. # [13:59] <hsivonen> SimonW: it is a nickname and HTML5 comes after HTML 4
  160. # [13:59] <hsivonen> SimonW: DOM5, XML5, SVG5, etc. are joke names that have the same "5" pattern
  161. # [13:59] <met_> HTML5 is also more comprehensive than WF2 and other
  162. # [14:00] <hsivonen> (and they are hypothetics that pop up on IRC every now and then)
  163. # [14:00] <SimonW> So a good answer to the question "What is HTML 5?" is "It's the nickname for a set of specifications that originated with the WHATWG" ?
  164. # [14:00] <hsivonen> SimonW: nickname for Web Apps 1.0 plus Web Form 2.0
  165. # [14:01] <hsivonen> afk
  166. # [14:01] <SimonW> Web Controls 1.0 too?
  167. # [14:04] <hsivonen> SimonW: no, Web Controls 1.0 is vaporware is practice at this point
  168. # [14:04] <SimonW> OK
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  177. # [15:02] <SimonW> How does the existence of the new HTML Working Group affect the activity around WHATWG?
  178. # [15:03] <virtuelv> SimonW: does it? in what sense?
  179. # [15:04] <SimonW> I don't know, that's why I'm asking :)
  180. # [15:05] <gsnedders> in what way do you mean activity? the number of people on the mailing lists?
  181. # [15:05] <SimonW> no, the actual work done by WHATWG
  182. # [15:05] <SimonW> will a lot of it move over to HTML WG, or will it still be developed separately and suggested over there once it's matured a bit?
  183. # [15:05] <SimonW> especially since the HTML 5 has been offered to HTML WG as a starting point
  184. # [15:06] <gsnedders> whether it moves over to the HTML WG is up to the HTML WG.
  185. # [15:06] <virtuelv> Personally, I think there is room for both
  186. # [15:06] <SimonW> (I'm asking as a relative outsider to WHATWG)
  187. # [15:06] <virtuelv> whatwg has been a useful testing ground
  188. # [15:06] <gsnedders> if Hixie is editor of both, they will both continue, and be generated from the same document
  189. # [15:07] <met_> SimonW, it is maybe on opposite way, WHATWG affects HTML WG, it depends on results of this proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0429.html
  190. # [15:07] <gsnedders> if the HTML WG starts from somewhere else, WHATWG's specs will remain at most a superset, and compatible
  191. # [15:07] <gsnedders> (unless of course the HTML WG loses it and goes away from developing something backwards compatible and therefore isn't relevant)
  192. # [15:08] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0025.html
  193. # [15:08] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0052.html
  194. # [15:09] <gsnedders> that really answers the question
  195. # [15:09] <gsnedders> s/that/those
  196. # [15:09] <SimonW> thanks
  197. # [15:09] <SimonW> so basically, the answer to my question is pretty up in the air
  198. # [15:10] <SimonW> but it should all shake out in the next month or so
  199. # [15:10] <gsnedders> quicker than that, I expect
  200. # [15:10] <SimonW> "Therefore, as a safety net, if you will, the WHATWG
  201. # [15:10] <SimonW> specs will continue to be developed for the time being."
  202. # [15:15] <SimonW> Was XHTML 2 being developed on a non-public mailing list?
  203. # [15:21] <gsnedders> IIRC www-html, a public list, was the HTML WG's mailing list, till the XHTML2 and HTML WG were re-chartered
  204. # [15:21] <gsnedders> public-xhtml2 is now the XHTML2 WG's list
  205. # [15:24] <Lachy> SimonW, XHTML2 was being developed behind closed doors on member-html-wg
  206. # [15:25] <SimonW> but all development on the new HTML WG is in public?
  207. # [15:25] <Lachy> yes
  208. # [15:25] <SimonW> thanks
  209. # [15:26] <Lachy> XHTML2 should also be moving entirely to the public list soon, but there still appears to be some activity on the member list
  210. # [15:26] <gsnedders> www-html was therefore only for public suggestions?
  211. # [15:26] <Lachy> actually, w3c-html-wg and w3c-html-cg were the member lists
  212. # [15:26] * gsnedders almost completely ignored the HTML WG before the re-chartering
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  220. # [18:41] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  221. # [18:41] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
  222. # [18:47] <annevk> <script async> and <script defer> are mutually exclusive right?
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  234. # [19:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you validator doesn't complain about <base> not being first (ignoring <meta charset>), it seems
  235. # [19:45] * Joins: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-e76aa023c7ee6c11)
  236. # [19:46] <zcorpan> (<head>'s content model doesn't agree with <meta>'s or <base>'s definition of where they are allowed, though)
  237. # [19:57] * Joins: SimonW (n=simon@host217-44-253-193.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  238. # [20:07] <annevk> "I have to say, some of the article is questionable at best, laughable at worst. I'm sorry but to try and introduce a standard called WA1 for web applications is just plain silly. We already have standards laid out in xhtml and dom so why add another level of obfustication around both of them and give it an almost identical name as the accessibility specification WAI simply shows a lack of knowledge of the client side."
  239. # [20:08] <annevk> from http://www.digital-web.com/articles/html5_xhtml2_and_the_future_of_the_web/comments/
  240. # [20:10] <jdandrea> ... and Ric's point ... is ...
  241. # [20:10] <annevk> that we need a new name supposedly
  242. # [20:10] <jdandrea> :)
  243. # [20:10] <annevk> hopefully we can rename it HTML 5 or HTML5 in a few weeks
  244. # [20:12] <kingryan> and hopefull the html-wg will adopt it
  245. # [20:12] <kingryan> hopefully*
  246. # [20:12] <annevk> well, that would be required :)
  247. # [20:13] <kingryan> from the above article: "HTML 4.01 may be a good, stable ground for developers to stand on..."
  248. # [20:13] <kingryan> I don't really understand that. HTML4 as a spec isn't that useful, it's only the semi-interoperable implementations that are stable
  249. # [20:14] <zcorpan> perhaps it's useful for authors
  250. # [20:14] * Joins: SimonW_ (n=simon@host217-44-253-193.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  251. # [20:14] <zcorpan> although not really either, you can get 10 interprentations of how to correctly use <h1>-<h6> for instance
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  253. # [20:15] <zcorpan> and it contradicts itself on some things
  254. # [20:15] <annevk> I doubt typical authors look up HTML4 at all
  255. # [20:15] <zcorpan> they don't
  256. # [20:16] <zcorpan> typical author doesn't even use a validator
  257. # [20:16] <kingryan> zcorpan: it may be useful for authors, but it's not sufficient
  258. # [20:16] <zcorpan> kingryan: indeed
  259. # [20:16] <zcorpan> i didn't say it was a good spec
  260. # [20:17] <kingryan> for me, html4 is only useful for supporting material when I have to make arguments supporting microformats against those who're more pedantic than I am :D
  261. # [20:25] <annevk> Philip` just mentioned the following in #html-wg: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/index.xhtml
  262. # [20:26] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  263. # [20:26] <annevk> He wrote a script in Python (not completely done yet I believe) that generates individual pages from the HTML5 proposal and keeps the cross references working
  264. # [20:36] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
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  267. # [20:42] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
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  270. # [21:06] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/temp/duke3d%202007-04-11%2020-56-58-93.mpeg
  271. # [21:10] * zcorpan has completed all 4 episodes at damn i'm good :D
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  275. # [21:21] <annevk2> KevinMarks, is your proposal to give each element a datastore?
  276. # [21:21] * annevk2 kind of likes that idea
  277. # [21:21] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
  278. # [21:25] <annevk> Philip`, get an account from Hixie on http://code.google.com/p/html5/ and put the code there
  279. # [21:26] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
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  282. # [21:30] <Lachy_> http://blog.jclark.com/2007/04/validation-not-necessarily-harmful.html
  283. # [21:31] <Lachy_> the first half of that is quite good, but then he reaches a conclusion that doesn't quite follow
  284. # [21:31] <annevk> i suppose you can do validation for non-complicated languages
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  296. # [22:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: base placement should be fixed now. thanks.
  297. # [22:01] <a-ja> hi all...don't know if this is a w3c validator or xhtml5 conformance checker issue...basically, for w3c mobile doctypes the w3c validator chokes on xml:base whereas xhtml5 checker chokes on html base href=.
  298. # [22:01] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  299. # [22:01] <hsivonen> a-ja: base href= is non-conforming in XHTML5
  300. # [22:02] <hsivonen> (conforming in HTML5)
  301. # [22:02] <annevk> currently non-conforming*
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  303. # [22:02] <hsivonen> annevk: well, everything in HTML5 is currently
  304. # [22:02] * Joins: SimonW (n=simon@host217-44-253-193.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  305. # [22:03] <a-ja> apparently mobile doctypes require xhtml but not xml:base...so shouldn't conformance checker issue warning rather than an error?
  306. # [22:03] <annevk> well, I raised an issue about this one :)
  307. # [22:04] * a-ja has no idea what old mobile devices actually implement
  308. # [22:04] <annevk> HTML most likely
  309. # [22:04] <annevk> certainly no xml:base fancyness
  310. # [22:04] <gsnedders> a-ja: xml:base is invalid under XHTML Mobile because the DTD doesn't allow it, and is a normative part of the standard
  311. # [22:05] <a-ja> that's the impression i get, too, annevk
  312. # [22:06] <hsivonen> a-ja: mobile profiles are not supported by the HTML5 conformance checker (unless you bring your own schema and use the generic facet)
  313. # [22:07] <a-ja> so, basically the call at this point is that there's not enuff existant mobile content to be a major concern?
  314. # [22:07] * a-ja is only asking in the spirit of "don't break the web"...not arguing that mobile doctypes aren't brain-dead
  315. # [22:08] <hsivonen> a-ja: I think mobile profiles are a mistake, so I am not focusing my effort on them. Instead, I am focusing on (X)HTML5 and I intend to revise the XHTML 1.x schemas sometime in more or less distant future.
  316. # [22:08] <hsivonen> a-ja: Mobile walled gardens aren't really part of the Web that we are concerned about not breaking
  317. # [22:09] <a-ja> hsivonen: gotcha...bigger fish to fry
  318. # [22:11] <hsivonen> a-ja: also, document conformance requirements are allowed to make existing practices non-conforming without being considered breaking the Web. Browser behavior could break the Web.
  319. # [22:11] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/specsplit.py and http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/toxhtml5.py (please forgive/fix any ugliness and tabs) are what's generating http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/
  320. # [22:12] <Philip`> (Maybe you could combine those scripts, but the html5lib minidom implementation seems incompatible with the normal XML one)
  321. # [22:12] <annevk> nice (the output)
  322. # [22:16] <a-ja> hsivonen: so the handling of xml:base and base href= in xhtml documents by UA's belongs in wa1 spec, rather than conformance checker, eh?
  323. # [22:16] <KevinMarks> annevk: catching up - what Sam + Mark did for RSS validation is an interesting approach
  324. # [22:21] <a-ja> hsivonen: or just plain ignored in spec for walled garden reasons?
  325. # [22:22] * a-ja is abandoning all hope of making sites both html5 and mobileOK conformant :)
  326. # [22:22] <hober> it amuses me greatly that specifically this blog post YSODs in Firefox: http://tom.opiumfield.com/blog/2007/04/11#When:08:50:10
  327. # [22:22] <zcorpan> mobileOK is bogus
  328. # [22:25] <hsivonen> a-ja: the conformance checker, at the moment, only checks if xml:base or base href= are allowed at a given spot
  329. # [22:25] <annevk> mobile is bogus
  330. # [22:25] <annevk> oh wait
  331. # [22:25] <a-ja> zcorpan: true enough...was gonna be majorly difficult to get pages under it's size limits in any event.
  332. # [22:26] <hsivonen> a-ja: currently, no conformance requirement check requires URI dereferencing, so the conformance checker doesn't actully implement base URI-based URI resolution
  333. # [22:26] <KevinMarks> annevk: re private data store - not sure if that is a workable model, I was just thinking of keeping the script in <script> and setting up a way to associate with the element. I'll defer to you browser implementers about how to do it well
  334. # [22:27] <hsivonen> a-ja: well, in general, WHATWG specs are about *the* Web, which you may browser using Minimo, the S60 WebKit-based browser, Opera or Opera Mini (or any emerging serious mobile browser) on a mobile device
  335. # [22:27] * annevk likes the .param approach
  336. # [22:27] <KevinMarks> I can see an advantage in having a datablob that can be shared between multiple elements that way
  337. # [22:27] <hsivonen> s/may browser/may browse/
  338. # [22:27] <annevk> except that I'm not sure if you want to type JSON into an attribute value
  339. # [22:28] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd say it is up to scripts to run eval() on JSON if they want to put JSON there, but we shouldn't require JSON as the private data
  340. # [22:28] <zcorpan> Philip`: you could perhaps include the trailing <script> on all pages, to get the status annotations
  341. # [22:28] <annevk> KevinMarks, the problem with your proposal is that authors have to both set up the attribute and set some default values in a <script> element somewhere
  342. # [22:29] <hsivonen> KevinMarks: btw, the HTML5 conformance checker technology preview uses a hybrid model that involves both schemas and Feed Validator -like SAX handlers
  343. # [22:29] <annevk> KevinMarks, one of the use cases is (i think) that an author sets some attributes with values and an external script implements the functionality on top of them (not controlled by the author)
  344. # [22:31] <KevinMarks> Right, thats the technique I call 'javascript decorators' - where you have some semantic HTML and a classname that the js looks for to interpret it in a new way. That gives nice fallback behaviour.
  345. # [22:31] <annevk> class only address booleans
  346. # [22:32] <annevk> the discussion ensued to find a way to address the non-boolean issues
  347. # [22:32] <KevinMarks> no, classes can mark out content for further manipulation
  348. # [22:32] <KevinMarks> eg hCard
  349. # [22:32] <KevinMarks> you have a containing class="vcard" and then classes on the other elements to mark up the data
  350. # [22:33] <KevinMarks> that way you have DRY built-in
  351. # [22:33] <annevk> <input class="maxlength=300"> was one example
  352. # [22:33] <annevk> (arguably that's better solved in another way now, but I think that's besides the point)
  353. # [22:33] <KevinMarks> the only issue is when you want some extra non-human-readable data
  354. # [22:34] <Philip`> zcorpan: Ah, I missed that - adding it now
  355. # [22:35] <jgraham> Philip`: What's the problem that requires the serializer in a different file?
  356. # [22:38] <Philip`> jgraham: It's mostly because html5lib takes ages to parse the spec, so it's quicker (during development) to just convert it to XML once and then I can repeatedly re-parse it later quickly
  357. # [22:39] <Philip`> During non-development that doesn't matter since people won't run the second script more than once, but if I use the html5lib minidom then it throws some exception when I try calling cloneNode
  358. # [22:39] <jgraham> Oh I see. So it's not a problem with html5lib (other than perf.)?
  359. # [22:40] <KevinMarks> annevk: here's something I wrote before: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006820.html
  360. # [22:40] <jgraham> Oh. Can you file the exception as a bug when you have a moment
  361. # [22:40] <annevk> I need some free weeks to implement this stuff in C
  362. # [22:40] <KevinMarks> which came out of here: http://burningbird.net/learning-javascript/ajax-myth-busting/
  363. # [22:40] <jgraham> (the functionality in the script is very cool fwiw)
  364. # [22:41] <annevk> Philip`, could you "AddType text/plain .py"?
  365. # [22:43] <annevk> KevinMarks, interesting
  366. # [22:44] <annevk> KevinMarks, unfortunately I'm not that into mf
  367. # [22:45] <annevk> actually, I get it, nm
  368. # [22:45] <Philip`> jgraham: Okay, I'll try to find where the problem is and report it
  369. # [22:45] <KevinMarks> the basic need is having variables for script access, so having them in <script> makes sense
  370. # [22:45] <Philip`> annevk: Added, I think
  371. # [22:48] <annevk> cheers
  372. # [22:48] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, just realised it's because I'm calling doc.cloneNode(True) where doc is the root object returned by the parser
  373. # [22:49] <annevk> KevinMarks, I don't think it's the most convenient for authors though
  374. # [22:49] <Philip`> (which seems to be a legitimate thing to do, I hope)
  375. # [22:50] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) ("Don't touch /dev/null…")
  376. # [22:50] <annevk> it would be pretty awesome if HTML5 was generated with tools it defines itself
  377. # [22:51] <Philip`> ...and only when the document in doc has a doctype - so maybe that's what it can't clone
  378. # [22:51] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136) ("nn")
  379. # [22:52] <KevinMarks> putting JSON in attributes is much less convenient; at least by keeping it in script you have a decent chance of validating it, and being more readily backwards compatible
  380. # [22:52] * jdandrea beams at the prospect of HTML5 generated w/self-defined tools
  381. # [22:53] <annevk> KevinMarks, I don't think your approach is more backwards compatible than the JSON in attribute value approach...
  382. # [22:53] <annevk> KevinMarks, but I agree that JSON in an attribute value is not very nice
  383. # [22:53] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
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  386. # [22:54] <KevinMarks> I think both that and the 'just add a big pile of our own attributes' approach that say, dojo, uses are both dodgy
  387. # [22:54] <Philip`> annevk: One problem with that approach is that it'll discourage changes to the HTML5 spec when those changes will break the tools that are used to write the spec :-)
  388. # [22:55] <jdandrea> Philip: Hmm. Didn't it work for C compilers though? "There's got to be a better way!"
  389. # [22:55] <KevinMarks> sounds like pypy
  390. # [22:56] <jdandrea> Ahh - http://codespeak.net/pypy/
  391. # [22:58] <Philip`> jgraham: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=33 should be it
  392. # [22:58] <jgraham> Thnaks!
  393. # [22:59] * Quits: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-e76aa023c7ee6c11) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/0000000000]")
  394. # [23:00] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  395. # [23:05] <Philip`> Hmm, the annotation script doesn't work because it loads annotate-data.xml relative to the document, but that file doesn't exist relative to my version of the document
  396. # [23:06] * annevk doesn't think the annotation is currently very useful
  397. # [23:07] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't see that exception here. Do you see something similar with:
  398. # [23:07] <jgraham> from xml.dom import minidom
  399. # [23:07] <jgraham> d = minidom.parseString("<body></body>")
  400. # [23:08] <jgraham> d.cloneNode(True)
  401. # [23:08] <Philip`> (Easy solution to annotation problem: just upload annotate-data.xml to my site, and don't forget to update it in the future)
  402. # [23:09] <Philip`> jgraham: That code works correctly with no exception
  403. # [23:09] <annevk> (in the future the whole thing should be in Hixie's publishing toolchain)
  404. # [23:09] <Philip`> (I'm using Python 2.5, in case that matters)
  405. # [23:11] <jgraham> Hmm. I tried 2.5 and 2.4 but didn't get an exception in either case. Can you just confirm what type of object doc is bound to in your example (i.e. what type of object are you getting from parser.parse('&lt;!DOCTYPE HTML&gt;'))
  406. # [23:12] <Philip`> parser.parse returns <xml.dom.minidom.Document instance at 0x00C71A08>
  407. # [23:13] <Philip`> (Also, this is with the 0.9 release download, rather than the latest from SVN)
  408. # [23:13] <annevk> oh, we usually fix the bugs after the release :)
  409. # [23:14] <jgraham> annevk: I can't see we'd have touched anything that affected DOM though.
  410. # [23:25] <gsnedders> ergh. more XHTML2 4ever people on fora :\
  411. # [23:25] <othermaciej> we really should make T-shirts that say "5 > 2"
  412. # [23:25] <gsnedders> totally.
  413. # [23:26] <annevk> lol
  414. # [23:26] <gsnedders> and put no mention of (X)HTML on them, so they aren't overly geeky
  415. # [23:26] <gsnedders> well, obviously geeky
  416. # [23:26] <annevk> 5 > 2 is pretty geeky
  417. # [23:27] * zcorpan wants such a t-shirt
  418. # [23:27] <gsnedders> but not obviously
  419. # [23:27] <gsnedders> to someone who doesn't know what it's about, it isn't.
  420. # [23:27] <gsnedders> to those who know, very.
  421. # [23:27] <gsnedders> discreetness is nice, though :)
  422. # [23:27] <othermaciej> I will try to get some art made and set up a Cafe Press store or something
  423. # [23:28] * Lachy_ will buy one :-)
  424. # [23:28] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  425. # [23:28] * jdandrea will buy two. I mean five. :)
  426. # [23:28] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  427. # [23:29] <hober> or goodstorm.com -- their shirts seem higher quality than cafepress
  428. # [23:29] <Lachy> 5 &gt; 2.0
  429. # [23:29] <jdandrea> Lachy: Better yet!
  430. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Lachy: but > doesn't need to be escaped!
  431. # [23:29] <gsnedders> why waste the bandwidth!
  432. # [23:29] <gsnedders> :P
  433. # [23:29] <othermaciej> Lachy: that's a little *too* geeky
  434. # [23:29] <jdandrea> 2 &lt; 5
  435. # [23:29] <jdandrea> hehe
  436. # [23:29] <gsnedders> s/bandwidth/chest-width
  437. # [23:29] <gsnedders> :)
  438. # [23:29] <gsnedders> but yeah, that's too geeky.
  439. # [23:29] <othermaciej> hmmm
  440. # [23:29] <gsnedders> it needs to be discreet.
  441. # [23:30] <othermaciej> if we really want high quality, there's at least one place that makes their shirts based on American Apparel t-shirts
  442. # [23:30] <othermaciej> but I forget the name
  443. # [23:30] <zcorpan> "5 < 2.0" is nice
  444. # [23:30] <jdandrea> 5 is the new 2? Hmm ...
  445. # [23:30] <zcorpan> er
  446. # [23:30] <zcorpan> "5 > 2.0"
  447. # [23:30] * gsnedders can't imagine what people would think at school if it were obviously geeky
  448. # [23:31] <gsnedders> plenty people know I can touch type, but don't know to what extent I have to do with the web
  449. # [23:32] <gsnedders> how about… mmm… "Web 5.0"
  450. # [23:32] <gsnedders> :P
  451. # [23:32] <KevinMarks> 5 > 2.0 is fun especially if we have them for next week
  452. # [23:32] <othermaciej> I like the minimal "5 > 2"
  453. # [23:32] <othermaciej> it's vague enough to be a little mysterious, even if you get it
  454. # [23:33] <othermaciej> what font should I use?
  455. # [23:33] <othermaciej> I am thinking it should be a font that is widely used on the web
  456. # [23:33] <othermaciej> but Times New Roman is kinda assy
  457. # [23:33] <deltab> Verdana?
  458. # [23:33] <Lachy> courier new
  459. # [23:33] <KevinMarks> all the 'web' fonts are
  460. # [23:33] <hasather> Monaco?
  461. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Helvetica?
  462. # [23:33] <KevinMarks> 'cos they were done by MS on the cheap
  463. # [23:33] <hober> helfuckingvetica :)
  464. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Lucida Grande?
  465. # [23:33] <Lachy> comic sans ms
  466. # [23:34] <zcorpan> sans-serif
  467. # [23:34] <KevinMarks> Zapfino
  468. # [23:34] <othermaciej> Helvetica is probably the prettiest choice there
  469. # [23:34] * zcorpan hides
  470. # [23:34] * jgraham sees much of the web in Bitstream Vera
  471. # [23:34] <jdandrea> Zapf Dingbats. Let 'em decode it. hehe
  472. # [23:34] <gsnedders> othermaciej: and its common enough
  473. # [23:34] <annevk> comic sans ms +1
  474. # [23:34] <gsnedders> but comic sans…
  475. # [23:34] <annevk> although maybe we should have a pretty font for a pretty t-shirt...
  476. # [23:34] <KevinMarks> I set safari to Hoefler for serif and Gill Sans of sans
  477. # [23:34] <gsnedders> I'm not sure I could cope wearing comic sans…
  478. # [23:35] <zcorpan> georgia
  479. # [23:35] <jdandrea> Gill Sans is nice.
  480. # [23:35] <gsnedders> KevinMarks: how do you set serif and sans-serif seperatly?
  481. # [23:35] <annevk> Arial
  482. # [23:36] <annevk> I'm with Helvetica I think
  483. # [23:36] <KevinMarks> hm, maciej, did you hide the pref?
  484. # [23:36] <KevinMarks> I think it's still in the plist
  485. # [23:36] <gsnedders> com.apple.saf?
  486. # [23:37] <gsnedders> all I see is WebKitFixedFont and WebKitStandardFont
  487. # [23:37] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: it's only had prefs for standard and fixed-width font for some time
  488. # [23:37] <KevinMarks> dang, its gone
  489. # [23:40] <gsnedders> othermaciej: what's the default for sans-serif? Lucida Grande?
  490. # [23:40] <jdandrea> Helvetica's tried and true too. I could go for that. http://www.fonts.com/findfonts/mondosearchresults.htm?st=12&kid=Helvetica
  491. # [23:40] <othermaciej> gsnedders: probably Helvetica
  492. # [23:41] <gsnedders> othermaciej: one of the system fonts, I assume?
  493. # [23:42] <KevinMarks> Hoefler has non-lining numbers, which always looks cool imo
  494. # [23:42] <othermaciej> a lot of the commenters on <http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5> must *clearly* be trolling
  495. # [23:45] * Lachy wonders if the comment from Bill Gates is really him
  496. # [23:45] <Hixie> yeah i'm ignoring the comments after the last one i posted
  497. # [23:45] <Hixie> they're all just trolling or not interested in being informed
  498. # [23:46] <Lachy> it's clearly a troll, based on what he said
  499. # [23:46] * jdandrea reads Hixie's comment (good response)
  500. # [23:46] <gsnedders> "Mozilla, Opera, and Apple should decrease the tolerance for invalid markup in their browsers" - is that even sane? :P
  501. # [23:47] <annevk> those people have no idea what they're talking about
  502. # [23:48] <annevk> most of them anyway
  503. # [23:48] <Lachy> good morning Hixie
  504. # [23:48] <Hixie> hi
  505. # [23:48] <gsnedders> http://codingforums.com/showpost.php?p=556210&postcount=26 – that's the forum post I was referring to earlier
  506. # [23:49] <gsnedders> maybe I should point him at liorean's article, as he is actually a supermoderator on that forum :P
  507. # [23:49] <gsnedders> it _used_ to be a very good intelligent forum
  508. # [23:50] <Philip`> Browsers won't want to do anything that makes the experience worse for users just because they're visiting invalid pages - but that shouldn't stop the browsers from searching the page for a webmaster email address and then sending anonymous hate mail to the author telling them to fix their markup. Users wouldn't know, so they'd be just as happy as before
  509. # [23:50] <gsnedders> but I've recently many times cited specifications and got argued that I'm wrong
  510. # [23:50] <gsnedders> :\
  511. # [23:51] <gsnedders> I'm a dumb teenager who thinks he knows it all, kthxbai.
  512. # [23:52] <gsnedders> oh, and please do say if you do get T-Shirts :)
  513. # [23:53] <othermaciej> I will let everyone know when/if there are t-shirts, need to do some other stuff for now but I shall try to get it set up tonight
  514. # [23:58] <KevinMarks> Having them for web 2.0 expo next week would be fun
  515. # [23:58] <KevinMarks> (starts on Sunday)
  516. # [23:58] * Quits: SimonW_ (n=simon@host217-44-253-193.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  517. # [23:59] <annevk> I'd love one for a presentation I do on HTML5 next Tuesday
  518. # Session Close: Thu Apr 12 00:00:00 2007

The end :)