/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 30 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: Ok. I'm not well aware of the legacy requirements here
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  12. # [00:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't understand why space characters cause "Reconstruct the active formatting elements" in "after body".
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  17. # [01:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: when you go from trailing end to main phase, what's the insertion mode gonna be? in body?
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  27. # [01:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: it doesn't change from whatever it used to be
  28. # [01:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: (spec says that somewhere)
  29. # [01:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: the space thing could be an oversight, spaces aren't very well handled
  30. # [01:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. that means I have to store the mode from which I switch to trailing end :-(
  31. # [01:51] <hsivonen> btw, IBM says their experience with the ICU4J charset detector is that 6KB of text is needed
  32. # [01:51] <hsivonen> seems like a lot compared to half a KB
  33. # [01:51] <Hixie> needed for what?
  34. # [01:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: to get a good confidence in statistic-based encoding guessing
  35. # [01:52] <othermaciej> statistics-based heuristics are a pretty different thing from prescanning for meta tags
  36. # [01:53] <hsivonen> yes, they are
  37. # [01:53] <hsivonen> if I can help it, I'd prefer to avoid scanning the entire doc either way
  38. # [01:54] <hsivonen> rounded up to memory pages, the IBM figure yields an 8 KB buffer
  39. # [01:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: seems reasonable. the spec leaves it open to whatever the UA wants.
  40. # [01:56] <hsivonen> still, my reading of Gecko source suggests that chardet is only run on the first buffer and the impression I got was that Gecko buffers were closer to half a K
  41. # [02:00] <Hixie> quite possible
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  51. # [07:59] * Hixie sends a +1 e-mail
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  66. # [09:51] * Lachy disagrees with Hixie's +1 mail
  67. # [09:53] <Lachy> Hixie, the problem isn't the case sensitivity, it's the conflict caused by having more than one way to declare namespaces, regardless of case sensitivity
  68. # [10:00] <Hixie> i was agreeing with the fact that there is no need to have multiple ways to declare prefixes being "active" in the same place
  69. # [10:03] <webben> re longdesc, it's striking that the Mozilla bug commentators consider accessibility extensions as fulfilling the accessibility needs associated with supported longdesc in the UI: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi
  70. # [10:04] <Hixie> nn
  71. # [10:04] <webben> *with supporting
  72. # [10:04] <webben> if this is the view developers are taking, then we need to take a much broader view of what UAs support
  73. # [10:05] <webben> sorry: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1996
  74. # [10:07] <webben> (I don't think such a holistic view of the UA ecosystem is unreasonable anyhow; but folks are sometimes dismissive of features currently requiring plugin/add-on support, which doesn't make any sense if mainstream development depends on such add-ons to provide end-user functionality
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  76. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: can you explain how one might hit point 7. in the CDATA/RCDATA tree building: "If the next token is an end tag token with the same tag name as the start tag token, ignore it. Otherwise, this is a parse error."
  77. # [10:42] <hsivonen> can the parse error only be hit by scripting?
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  80. # [11:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't see the void elements that usually appear in head ever popped off the stack. They should all be accompanied by "Immediately pop the current node off the stack of open elements.", right?
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  83. # [11:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: the reason why the CDATA/RCDATA is the way it is is to make script and style appending atomic from the scripting point of view, right? so I can greatly simplify things in a non-browser parser, right?
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  88. # [13:48] <hsivonen> eww. the implicit </p> stuff is ugly
  89. # [13:56] <annevk> the tools will not generate </p>
  90. # [14:00] <hsivonen> the tools?
  91. # [14:00] <annevk> the tools that safe us
  92. # [14:00] <hsivonen> oh
  93. # [14:01] <hsivonen> annevk: anyway, I don't want the tree builder methods to call each other recursively to enable stack frame creation omission compiler optimizations
  94. # [14:02] <annevk> nice sentence
  95. # [14:02] <hsivonen> annevk: which means "acting as if" an end tag had been seen when I'm processing a start tag gets ugly
  96. # [14:03] <annevk> what is the big deal about creating a new token running that through the parser and then running the token you were processing again?
  97. # [14:04] <hsivonen> annevk: the "tokens" don't exist as objects
  98. # [14:04] <hsivonen> annevk: so doing that would mean calling the methods in a way that poisons the said compiler optimization
  99. # [14:06] <annevk> ah ok
  100. # [14:07] <hsivonen> this is of course moot if HotSpot doesn't do the said optimization but I remember reading that it does
  101. # [14:10] <hsivonen> this is one of those areas where I'm doing smart stuff if I guess the compiler behavior right and I'm doing stupid stuff if I guess wrong but verifying the guess takes more time than the wasted time caused by the guess being wrong
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  103. # [14:54] <annevk> wow, check IE7 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Cobject%20src%3D%22image%22%20type%3D%22text/html%22%3E
  104. # [14:55] <annevk> if you use a src= attribute on <object> it generates some type of data URI inside the data attribute?!
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  107. # [15:10] <Philip`> It does the same with <object type="text/html" data="data:">, as long as you have "data:" (case-insensitive) at the start, replacing it with its own weird URI
  108. # [15:14] <Philip`> IE6 (at least when in Wine) does about the same except its data: thing is the same first 16 bytes as in IE7, then a more complete document ("<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><HTML><HEAD><META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"></HEAD><BODY><P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>")
  109. # [15:17] <annevk> it would be nice if there was a dom view for the rendered view too
  110. # [15:17] <annevk> oh
  111. # [15:17] <annevk> it has a refresh button
  112. # [15:17] <annevk> duh
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  118. # [16:52] <annevk> heh, the PNG group rejected APNG
  119. # [16:52] <annevk> didn't know that
  120. # [16:53] <annevk> "Voting has closed on the APNG proposal. There were 8 YES votes, 10 NO votes, no abstentions, and no ineligble votes cast. The proposal has failed and the APNG chunks are not registered."
  121. # [16:56] <Philip`> http://blog.vlad1.com/archives/2007/04/26/143/ has some comments on that (including "maybe see about publishing it as an unofficial spec through the WHATWG (if there is interest in that group)", though I have no idea what more recent plans are like)
  122. # [16:57] <annevk> I wonder if other vendors are going to adopt it. Such as Internet Explorer...
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  125. # [17:16] <annevk> http://gjuyn.xs4all.nl/pnganim.html is also interesting
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  129. # [17:50] <webben> Any thoughts on why previous attempts to improve on <img> failed where new attempts to create <video> and <audio> object would succeed?
  130. # [17:51] <annevk> <video> and such are being implemented?
  131. # [17:52] <annevk> well, I guess more that people are used to <img>
  132. # [17:52] <gsnedders> and using <object> and the like can get overly complex trying to embed video
  133. # [17:53] <annevk> hmm, more people don't get <dl>
  134. # [17:54] <annevk> yeah, especially for APIs
  135. # [17:54] <annevk> got to go
  136. # [17:58] <Philip`> Maybe <img> is almost good enough already, so the cost of changing it outweighs the benefits of improving it, whereas <video>/<audio> can be improved much more by changing them
  137. # [17:59] <webben> i thought <image> /was/ implemented (same as <img>)
  138. # [17:59] <webben> what was the other attempt to replace img?
  139. # [18:00] <webben> I mean there's TBL's original suggestion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-talk/1992NovDec/0106.html
  140. # [18:00] <webben> but that never made it into a spec AFAIK
  141. # [18:01] <webben> ah ... <fig> ? http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/figures.html
  142. # [18:02] <Philip`> <image> wasn't an attempt to replace <img> - it was just an attempt to be nice to authors and error-correct their frequent misspellings of the tag name
  143. # [18:04] <Philip`> (...or at least I'm guessing that's what it was, and I'd be rather surprised if that wasn't true)
  144. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: that is true
  145. # [18:06] <webben> hmm <fig> works at least as well as the <pic> and <picture> varieties being proposed
  146. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: now my speculation: bug reports to browsers about <image> not working
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  148. # [18:06] <webben> (at least judging by IE6 and Fx2) ... just doesn't display the image
  149. # [18:06] <gsnedders> webben: all seem to define specific types of image
  150. # [18:07] <webben> gsnedders: all what?
  151. # [18:07] <webben> <fig> seems to be generic
  152. # [18:07] <gsnedders> webben: picture, figure, etc.
  153. # [18:07] <webben> i think picture is intended to be generic too
  154. # [18:07] <webben> (from what I've seen of public-html proposals)
  155. # [18:07] <gsnedders> is a diagram stored in an image a picture?
  156. # [18:07] <webben> yes
  157. # [18:08] <gsnedders> yes, but the name suggests otherwise
  158. # [18:08] <webben> no
  159. # [18:08] <webben> it doesn't actually
  160. # [18:08] <gsnedders> (and I know the name of the element is irrelevant for semantics)
  161. # [18:08] <webben> no i mean "picture" is not a word that excludes "diagram"
  162. # [18:08] <webben> (or photo, or painting, or whatever)
  163. # [18:09] <webben> "I took a picture" , "I painted a picture" ...
  164. # [18:09] <gsnedders> in my head a diagram isn't a picture.
  165. # [18:11] <webben> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Apicture
  166. # [18:11] <webben> i think your head is wrong on this one ;)
  167. # [18:12] <webben> i agree that picture has some connotation of likeness vs abstraction
  168. # [18:12] <webben> but an abstract painting would still be a picture in common parlance
  169. # [18:12] <webben> so even that doesn't really hold up
  170. # [18:13] <webben> i think image actually excludes the idea of diagram more than picture does
  171. # [18:13] <webben> because an image actually means "copy"
  172. # [18:13] <webben> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=image
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  174. # [18:14] <webben> whereas picture ultimately refers to the act of painting
  175. # [18:14] <webben> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=picture
  176. # [18:20] <Philip`> "figure" is generic enough that it usually includes tables as well as images, at least in TeX-like documents
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  179. # [18:24] <webben> Philip`: yes figure is probably too generic ... although HTML5's figure seems intended to be used mainly for non-textual materials
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  181. # [18:36] <webben> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/1083.html doesn't make sense as a reason for <embed> not having alt since current UAs to have some support for alt on embed
  182. # [18:36] <webben> (as it sort of admits)
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  185. # [18:43] <Philip`> Maybe <embed alt> is missing just because it's not specified anywhere and nobody thought of it when adding embed in HTML5?
  186. # [18:44] <Philip`> (Or maybe people are much more aware of such things than I am :-) )
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  190. # [18:49] <Philip`> Hmm... As far I can tell, Lynx and Opera show the embed's alt; Links and Firefox and IE and Safari don't
  191. # [18:56] <zcorpan> there is <noembed>... but if you need fallback use <object>
  192. # [18:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: the void elements aren't actually put on the stack.
  193. # [18:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: the CDATA/RCDATA stuff could hit an EOF token
  194. # [19:00] <Philip`> (w3m doesn't show the embed alt either)
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  196. # [19:02] <zcorpan> Philip`: you have a test case for embed alt?
  197. # [19:03] <Philip`> data:text/html,<embed alt="alt">
  198. # [19:03] <Philip`> That's about what I was testing :-)
  199. # [19:03] <zcorpan> Philip`: doesn't show anything in opera for me
  200. # [19:04] <Philip`> Oops... Try <embed alt="alt" src="404">
  201. # [19:04] <zcorpan> ah. o9.5 shows it indeed
  202. # [19:05] <Philip`> (Half my tests were wrong, then...)
  203. # [19:05] <webben> Philip`: Have you checked Firefox and IE with the Microsoft's accessibility inspector (I haven't as yet)
  204. # [19:05] <zcorpan> and lynx
  205. # [19:05] <webben> IIRC HTML5 keeps <embed> for Flash
  206. # [19:05] <Philip`> Lynx shows the alt text, Links shows a "[EMBED]" link, w3m shows a "embed(404)" link
  207. # [19:06] <webben> zcorpan: in which case one use-case would be http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/news/just-how-accessible-is-the-web-bbc-1s-click-investigates/
  208. # [19:06] <Philip`> (IE and Safari still don't show any alt text, just a broken image icon (in IE) or a blank space (in Safari))
  209. # [19:06] <webben> it's embedded in a discussion of why using invalid HTML can have unpredictable effects on accessibility
  210. # [19:06] <Philip`> (regardless of whether src is specified or not)
  211. # [19:07] <webben> Philip`: some of those text browsers can be quite configurable.
  212. # [19:07] <webben> Philip`: so that's not necessarily their only possible response
  213. # [19:07] <Philip`> webben: I haven't checked it with that (and I can't entirely easily, since rdesktop keeps crashing at random times when I try connecting to Windows...)
  214. # [19:08] <webben> Philip`: Fair enough. :)
  215. # [19:08] <Philip`> ((I blame my video drivers rather than rdesktop for that, since it used to work fine))
  216. # [19:08] <webben> I think the main advantage is for Lynx though.
  217. # [19:09] <webben> in particular you can do <embed alt="">
  218. # [19:09] <webben> (which in the particular use-case cited would have helped)
  219. # [19:12] <webben> Philip`: is your testcase online?
  220. # [19:13] <Philip`> No, but I could upload something quickly if it'd be useful
  221. # [19:13] <webben> Philip`: I suppose I can make one myself; no reason to trouble you unless you'd already done it :)
  222. # [19:17] <Philip`> Oh, Links is slightly odd
  223. # [19:17] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/embedalt.html
  224. # [19:17] <Philip`> Links shows the alt text when you embed an image, but not when you embed something that doesn't exist
  225. # [19:18] <Philip`> Also, Opera doesn't like embedded images at all, since it wants me to install a plugin
  226. # [19:24] <webben> I'm using .swf as an extension in my test
  227. # [19:24] <webben> since AFAICT that's the only reason to use embed
  228. # [19:25] <Philip`> That's probably sensible
  229. # [19:25] * Philip` doesn't have any easily-available .swf files
  230. # [19:27] <webben> oh ... i was just testing with a non-existent one
  231. # [19:27] <Philip`> Ah, I can steal the Live DOM Viewer's Flash file...
  232. # [19:27] <webben> http://www.benjaminhawkeslewis.com/www/test-cases/embed-alt.html
  233. # [19:27] <webben> maybe i need both
  234. # [19:27] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/embedalt.html - now with a .swf
  235. # [19:28] <Philip`> Links shows [EMBED] for pass.swf and 404, and shows the alt text (or an empty space) for green.png
  236. # [19:29] <Philip`> (Lynx still always shows the alt text (or [EMBED] if there is none))
  237. # [19:30] <webben> could you add one with a .swf extension that 404s
  238. # [19:30] <webben> it's possible UAs might react different for that
  239. # [19:30] <Philip`> Done
  240. # [19:30] <webben> cool :)
  241. # [19:31] <Philip`> Opera does act differently based on the extension; I can't see anything else that does
  242. # [19:32] <Philip`> (though I don't have Flash installed in any browser other than Opera)
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  245. # [20:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: e.g. img is put on the stack and immediately popped. e.g. link is put on the stack and never popped (I pop it on my own)
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  259. # Session Close: Sun Jul 01 00:00:02 2007

The end :)