/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-07-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jul 01 00:00:02 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh yeah, never noticed that. huh. send mail?
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  32. # [04:17] <Hixie> wtf is "next column" in 3.15.11.1.9.1 ??
  33. # [04:17] <Hixie> i really have to pay more attention when writing up these algorithms
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  40. # [06:44] <Hixie> i found tens of thousands of documents last modified in 1990 that claim to have class=MsoNormal
  41. # [06:44] <Hixie> sigh
  42. # [07:05] <duryodhan> where? you googled?
  43. # [07:06] <Hixie> wow, the sheer number of pages with screwed-up markup is amazing
  44. # [07:06] <Hixie> duryodhan: part of my research
  45. # [07:06] <duryodhan> ohh ok
  46. # [07:06] <duryodhan> the sheer number of screwed up markup ... heh
  47. # [07:07] <duryodhan> take today ... I am a developer who wants to make a site ...
  48. # [07:07] <duryodhan> what should I do?
  49. # [07:07] <duryodhan> XHTML5, XHTML 1,2 , HTML4 , HTML Forms. WebForms 1.0 , XForms , use DOM to check forms or use XForms ....
  50. # [07:07] <duryodhan> ?
  51. # [07:08] <duryodhan> I mean, probably a decade later many of these will become obselete
  52. # [07:08] <duryodhan> and someone will look on them as docs with screwed up markup ...
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  54. # [07:08] <Hixie> today? just use HTML4.
  55. # [07:08] <duryodhan> ok
  56. # [07:08] <duryodhan> today is a little ....
  57. # [07:08] <Hixie> XHTML5 isn't done yet, XHTML 1 isn't supported by IE, XHTML2 isn't done yet, XForms doesn't work in browsers
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  59. # [07:09] <duryodhan> why do we have web forms as well as XForms ?
  60. # [07:09] <Hixie> dunno, ask the xforms guys
  61. # [07:09] <Hixie> it's pretty common for groups of people to try to invent new replacement technologies
  62. # [07:09] <duryodhan> (XForms using something like orbeon)
  63. # [07:09] <Hixie> sometimes new technologies take off
  64. # [07:10] <Hixie> (most often they don't)
  65. # [07:10] <duryodhan> heh... haven't you guys made web forms ?
  66. # [07:10] <Hixie> web forms is just a fancy name for what html4 does
  67. # [07:10] <Hixie> web forms 2 is just the next revision of html4 forms
  68. # [07:10] <Hixie> it's part of html5
  69. # [07:10] <duryodhan> k
  70. # [07:10] <Hixie> the name "web forms 2" is likely to die a peaceful death
  71. # [07:10] <duryodhan> heh, isn't that a whatwg spec ? webforms 2?
  72. # [07:11] <Lachy> duryodhan: yes, but it will be integrated into the larger HTML5 spec in the future
  73. # [07:12] <Lachy> assuming the xforms guys don't get in the way and try to push their xforms transitional instead
  74. # [07:12] <duryodhan> my point is ... with so many specs ... many docs will still be again with "screwed up markup" in a decade
  75. # [07:12] <duryodhan> so we really haven't learnt from our past ...
  76. # [07:12] <Lachy> screwed up markup isn't caused by having many specs
  77. # [07:12] <duryodhan> XForms guys are putting webforms 2 as a Xforms-minimal or something ...
  78. # [07:13] <Lachy> they're working on "XForms Transitional", I believe
  79. # [07:13] <duryodhan> yeah
  80. # [07:13] <Hixie> so i found over 100000 html files with a last-modified date of 1988.
  81. # [07:14] <Hixie> wtf
  82. # [07:14] <duryodhan> well I was looking at developing a way for forms to have digital signatures ... and I still don't know a good way :(
  83. # [07:14] <jruderman> Hixie: time travel. how many from 1987?
  84. # [07:14] <duryodhan> there are just so many possibilities ..
  85. # [07:15] <Hixie> jruderman: around the same
  86. # [07:15] <Lachy> that's really weird, I find it hard to believe there are that many servers out there with clocks set so wrongly
  87. # [07:15] <Hixie> jruderman: i even found hundreds from 1662.
  88. # [07:15] <jruderman> that's impressive
  89. # [07:16] <Hixie> yes.
  90. # [07:16] <duryodhan> Hixie: 1662? :O
  91. # [07:16] <Lachy> I'm sure the internet archive will be very interested in those historical documents :-)
  92. # [07:17] <Lachy> Found anything from BCE?
  93. # [07:18] <duryodhan> Lachy: they were all used for writing "the da vinci code "
  94. # [07:18] <Hixie> my methodology was to look for the first 4 digit number in the last-modified field that was not preceded or suceeded by numbers or a +
  95. # [07:18] <Hixie> so i couldn't find anything BCE
  96. # [07:18] <Hixie> wouldn't surprise me htough
  97. # [07:18] <Lachy> what if it was preceded by a - >
  98. # [07:18] <Lachy> ?
  99. # [07:19] <Hixie> i'd take it but ignore the - or >
  100. # [07:20] <Lachy> I meant to write "what if it was preceded by a '-'?" Ignore the '>'
  101. # [07:20] <Hixie> i treated -s like spaces
  102. # [07:20] <Hixie> even more impressive is the thousands of files from dates greater than 2010
  103. # [07:20] <Lachy> oh, then you might have counted timezone offsets as years
  104. # [07:21] <Hixie> i got a million or more from 2099
  105. # [07:21] <Hixie> and almost 200,000 from max time_t
  106. # [07:21] <Lachy> so is the conclusion that we can draw from this, that the last modified date is completely useless?
  107. # [07:23] <Lachy> well, I suppose it's still somewhat useful for setting the If-last-modified-since HTTP header
  108. # [07:24] <Hixie> also a lot from 2099 and 2100 (like, over a million and over half a million respectively)
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  110. # [07:26] <Lachy> is there any correlation between dates the use the correct format and those that have plausible dates?
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  112. # [07:28] <Lachy> my hypothesis would be that servers that are configured to send the right date format are more likely to be configured with more accurate dates, and the others are just broken and unreliable.
  113. # [07:29] <Hixie> i dunno
  114. # [07:29] <Hixie> there were a LOT of different formats
  115. # [07:29] <Hixie> like, thousands
  116. # [07:29] <Hixie> the spec allows three
  117. # [07:29] <Hixie> which maps to about 10 actual formats
  118. # [07:29] <Lachy> which spec?
  119. # [07:29] <Hixie> http
  120. # [07:29] <Lachy> ok
  121. # [07:29] <Lachy> I thought it only allowed one.
  122. # [07:29] <Hixie> nope
  123. # [07:30] <Hixie> it defines three formats, all retarded
  124. # [07:31] <Lachy> oh, I see
  125. # [07:31] <Lachy> Sun, 06 Nov 1994 08:49:37 GMT ; RFC 822, updated by RFC 1123
  126. # [07:31] <Lachy> Sunday, 06-Nov-94 08:49:37 GMT ; RFC 850, obsoleted by RFC 1036
  127. # [07:31] <Lachy> Sun Nov 6 08:49:37 1994 ; ANSI C's asctime() format
  128. # [07:32] <Hixie> yeah
  129. # [07:32] <Hixie> so the second one, i ignored
  130. # [07:33] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/284 is an older version of this data btw
  131. # [07:33] <Lachy> the first is at least somewhat sensible
  132. # [07:34] <Lachy> the last one is just a really strange order
  133. # [07:34] <Hixie> the junkyard one doesn't exclude the + character
  134. # [07:35] <Hixie> hence all the low numbers
  135. # [07:35] <Hixie> and the peaks at 100s
  136. # [07:36] <Lachy> how do you explain the peaks at dates like 1428?
  137. # [07:37] <Lachy> 1969-70 can be explained because that's the epoch
  138. # [07:38] <Hixie> yeah 2038 can be explained too
  139. # [07:38] <Lachy> yeah, the max 32bit time
  140. # [07:38] <Hixie> #### only means thousands, so it could just be one misconfigured site
  141. # [07:39] <Hixie> 2250 i don't get
  142. # [07:41] <Lachy> so how many does ########## represent (the 2007 value)
  143. # [07:43] <Lachy> I'm surprised there aren't peaks at years like 0030, 0130, 0230, etc. for timezone offsets
  144. # [07:43] <Hixie> # = one order of magnitude
  145. # [07:44] <Hixie> there aren't that many :30 TZ offsets
  146. # [07:47] <Lachy> ok
  147. # [07:49] <Hixie> ########## is in the billions
  148. # [07:50] <Lachy> aargh! It really annoys me how some people conflate making content accessibile with providing fallback to those without the necessary software
  149. # [07:52] <Hixie> the most annoying thing for me in public-html is the way most people jump to a solution rather than determining the problem
  150. # [07:54] <Lachy> yeah, that too. I tried getting people to focus on the problem months ago, and it didn't really work then, and still not working now
  151. # [07:55] <Lachy> like in the whole headers="" debate, I tried to talk about how we could make tables accessible without needing headers, and basically got accused of ignoring the needs of the accessibility community
  152. # [07:55] <Hixie> yeah
  153. # [07:56] <Hixie> it's ridiculous
  154. # [07:56] <Lachy> although, Henri seemed to get a really good response from Aaron (I believe) that showed significant improvement
  155. # [07:58] <Lachy> this one ttp://www.w3.org/mid/4680E4F5.6080903@moonset.net and http://www.w3.org/mid/4680FE26.9090802@moonset.net
  156. # [07:59] <Hixie> yeah
  157. # [07:59] <Hixie> let's hope people go more in that direction
  158. # [08:01] <Hixie> what year was cellpadding="" invented?
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  160. # [08:02] <Hixie> i have about 250,000 documents labelled 1990, and about 250,000 documents labelled 1990 that have an element with a cellpadding="" attribute
  161. # [08:03] * Hixie dismisses the 1990 data
  162. # [08:06] <Hixie> the sheer number of different doctypes is insane
  163. # [08:07] <Lachy> Hixie: HTML tables were invented around 1995-96 and published in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1942.txt
  164. # [08:07] <Lachy> that includes cellpadding
  165. # [08:08] <Hixie> yeah so basically anything before 1995 is statistically insignificant
  166. # [08:08] <Hixie> pity
  167. # [08:08] <Hixie> not surprising though
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  171. # [08:50] <Hixie> wow
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  173. # [08:50] <Hixie> limited quirks was in the 0%-2% range until 2004, then it jumped to 11%, 13%, 20% in 2006
  174. # [08:55] <Lachy> what do you mean by limited quirks?
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  178. # [09:13] <Hixie> Lachy: "almost standards"
  179. # [09:13] <Lachy> ok
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  181. # [09:14] <Lachy> I wonder if that's because tools like Dreamweaver started producing reasonable code with transitional DOCTYPEs around that time
  182. # [09:16] <Lachy> actually, dreamweaver was doing that in 2002 when they released Dreamweaver MX
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  184. # [09:24] <Hixie> it started around 1999, with xhtml
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  187. # [10:01] <Hixie> year over year, the most popular class names are very variable
  188. # [10:03] <Hixie> oh nm
  189. # [10:12] <Hixie> hmm, <font> is dropping in usage
  190. # [10:12] <Hixie> that's encouraging
  191. # [10:12] <Hixie> <table> isn't
  192. # [10:13] <Hixie> my 2000 data is borked
  193. # [10:13] <Hixie> probably skewed by one site or something
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  212. # [14:30] * Philip` kind of dislikes it when the spec has exactly the same paragraph repeated in two different places, since his spec<->testcase annotation script uses regexps within paragraphs to identify the right sentence for each test and gets confused by duplicates :-(
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  214. # [14:43] <zcorpan> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/06/30/irony style="" (quote from a t-shirt with red text)
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  216. # [14:51] <mpt> webben_, in my experience, Mozilla bug commentators saying "X is available in an extension, therefore it shouldn't be in the base software". is a common mistake caused by underestimating the difficulty of finding+installing extensions. It's not particularly striking.
  217. # [14:54] <mpt> (Personally I think longdesc= is a waste of time for a browser to support, but not because there are extensions that support it.)
  218. # [14:56] <Lachy> the fact that ATs already support it is the strongest reason to include it, but in practice, I think it has failed
  219. # [14:56] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-17.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  220. # [14:59] <Dashiva> I thought longdesc seemed like a good case for a microformat
  221. # [15:00] <Lachy> Dashiva: do you mean <a rel=longdesc>?
  222. # [15:01] <Dashiva> No, more that the use case seems so limited, it would make more sense to let the group actually using it decide how they want it, and keep it out of the main spec
  223. # [15:01] <Dashiva> This is orthogonal to fallback/alt content for images, though
  224. # [15:05] <Lachy> oh well, the legal stick of accessibility has been waived again :-/
  225. # [15:05] <Lachy> why is it that when accessibility advocates can't come up with a rational argument, they always fall back to the legal stick?
  226. # [15:08] <Dashiva> Well, maybe they realize there are no carrots available?
  227. # [15:25] <mpt> If the Web had smell-o-vision, would accessibility advocates fight for longdescs of odors on behalf of those with no sense of smell?
  228. # [15:27] <Lachy> A perfume site that made use of smell-o-vision would probably provide a description of the smell anyway for all users, so they can know what it's like before sampling.
  229. # [15:28] <Dashiva> But that's just like now
  230. # [15:28] <Dashiva> Everyone is disabled with respect to smelling on the web
  231. # [15:28] <Dashiva> Why don't we have accessible smells?
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  233. # [15:33] <Philip`> Are there any free non-patent-encumbered media formats for odours?
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  235. # [15:35] <Philip`> It would be a pain if you had to use multiple encoders (encodours?) since the common browsers all support different formats :-(
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  237. # [15:44] <Lachy> it looks like Sony already has a patent on one form of the technology http://theredactor.blogspot.com/2005/04/birth-of-smellovision.html
  238. # [15:45] <Lachy> http://blog.teledyn.com/node/2286
  239. # [15:46] <Lachy> of course, it's another case of the US patent office granting another invalid patent for a non-existent invention
  240. # [15:49] <zcorpan> you can patent things that haven't been invented?
  241. # [15:49] <Lachy> apparently Sony can
  242. # [15:49] <zcorpan> why am i not surprised
  243. # [15:50] <Lachy> I really do not get the whole <picture> idea. It provides nothing more than <object> does, and has absolutely no browser support
  244. # [15:51] <zcorpan> i think it's the case of http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1108984991&count=1
  245. # [15:52] <Philip`> <object> having browser support is a problem if that support contradicts the requirements for supporting images, and can't be changed (due to compatibility concerns), whereas a new element like <picture> doesn't have that problem
  246. # [15:53] <Philip`> (since <picture> could work eventually, while <object> could never work)
  247. # [15:53] <Philip`> (I don't know if the existing <object> support does have that problem in practice, though)
  248. # [15:54] <Lachy> <object> can work, and does work in some UAs already. However, I would like to know how well object fallback works with screen readers when used to embed images
  249. # [15:54] <Lachy> webben_: yt?
  250. # [16:07] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-89-234.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("moving pc")
  251. # [16:24] <webben_> Lachy: yt?
  252. # [16:24] <Lachy> yo, is it you who knows all about screen readers and stuff?
  253. # [16:24] <webben_> I certainly wouldn't say all. :)
  254. # [16:25] <Lachy> well, more than I do :-)
  255. # [16:25] <webben_> Lachy: do you have a testcase?
  256. # [16:25] <Lachy> I can make one
  257. # [16:26] <webben_> Lachy: I suspect it's basically dependent on how browsers handle object fallback.
  258. # [16:27] <webben_> but I can test with VO and Window-Eyes easily enough
  259. # [16:27] * webben_ unfortunately doesn't have a copy of JAWS
  260. # [16:27] <Lachy> make a page with this and let me know if they read it <object data="http://ln.hixie.ch/resources/images/astrophy/original" type="image/png">Fallback Content</object>
  261. # [16:30] <Lachy> and can you also see how well they do with the flash and fallback content on this page http://www.3m.com/intl/au/office/TakeCommand/
  262. # [16:30] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-93-12.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  263. # [16:36] <webben_> Lachy: well, the object alternative in http://www.benjaminhawkeslewis.com/www/test-cases/object-fallback.html doesn't work with latest WebKit + VO
  264. # [16:41] <Lachy> you could try <noembed> as well
  265. # [16:41] <webben_> Lachy: but the problem is things are embedded
  266. # [16:42] <Lachy> yeah, true
  267. # [16:42] <webben_> that's the difference between fallback and alternative/descriptive content
  268. # [16:42] <webben_> I tried embed alt ... that didn't work in VO either
  269. # [16:42] <webben_> it read the picture as "Frame 1"
  270. # [16:43] <Lachy> webkit probably doesn't support <embed alt>. Opera's build in screen reader might, or maybe Opera with Windows Eyes (if possible)
  271. # [16:44] <webben_> Lachy: Opera doesn't work with screen readers ATM. Supposedly that will be fixed in a forthcoming release.
  272. # [16:44] <webben_> I think the 3m site is way too complex to function as a testcase
  273. # [16:46] <webben_> yeah webkit doesn't support embed alt ... feeble.
  274. # [16:46] <Lachy> I just wanted to know if that flash was accessible
  275. # [16:46] <webben_> might try and submit a patch for that
  276. # [16:46] <webben_> Lachy: oh right
  277. # [16:47] <webben_> if we want an example of supposedly accessible flash, there's jkrowling's site
  278. # [16:47] <Lachy> I built that 3m site, but I didn't make the flash
  279. # [16:47] <webben_> ah
  280. # [16:47] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-17.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  281. # [16:48] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  282. # [16:51] <Lachy> Opera Voice will read the object fallback
  283. # [16:52] <Lachy> but it won't read the embed alt
  284. # [16:54] <webben_> which is silly, as flash accessibility won't work from Opera
  285. # [16:55] <webben_> hmm actually maybe it's not that silly
  286. # [16:55] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-17.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  287. # [16:55] <webben_> if you're embedding video you may still be able to watch an auto-playing video
  288. # [16:56] <Lachy> Opera wouldn't read the fallback for the Flash, only the image
  289. # [16:57] * Joins: briansuda (n=briansud@85-220-95-76.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is)
  290. # [17:03] <Lachy> why did JK Rowling make the accessibility enabled version completely separate? The english version looks no different from the accessible english version
  291. # [17:04] <webben_> Lachy: I don't know. There are a lot of things I don't understand about how that site was put together.
  292. # [17:04] <webben_> src="http://ln.hixie.ch/resources/images/astrophy/original" is too confusing for IE
  293. # [17:04] <webben_> as is data="http://ln.hixie.ch/resources/images/astrophy/original"
  294. # [17:05] <webben_> it throws up a warning that it wants to download Microsoft HTML Viewer (WTF?)
  295. # [17:05] <webben_> presumably it thinks it's an HTML include
  296. # [17:07] <Philip`> Try <object src="http://ln.hixie.ch/resources/images/astrophy/original" type="image/png">Fallback Content</object> in the DOM viewer in IE - it's great fun, with the kind of 'fun' that only IE can manage
  297. # [17:08] <webben_> funie
  298. # [17:09] <Philip`> (It gives me <OBJECT type=text/html data=data:application/x-oleobject;base64,IGkzJfkDzxGP0ACqAGhvEzwhRE9DVFlQRSBIVE1MIFBVQkxJQyAiLS8vVzNDLy9EVEQgSFRNTCA0LjAgVHJhbnNpdGlvbmFsLy9FTiI+DQo8SFRNTD48SEVBRD4NCjxNRVRBIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9Q29udGVudC1UeXBlIGNvbnRlbnQ9InRleHQvaHRtbDsgY2hhcnNldD13aW5kb3dzLTEyNTIiPjwvSEVBRD4NCjxCT0RZPg0KPFA+Jm5ic3A7PC9QPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= src="http://ln.hixie.ch/resources/images/astrophy/original"> in IE6, and something a bit short
  299. # [17:09] <webben_> hmm I just see #text with IE7
  300. # [17:10] <Philip`> ...a bit shorter in IE7)
  301. # [17:10] <webben_> I think we need an image with a file extension to test this in IE
  302. # [17:11] <webben_> (IE seems highly reliant on file extensions)
  303. # [17:12] <Philip`> IE only does that x-oleobject for me when type="..." is a recognised MIME type (e.g. text/html, image/png, application/xml, not application/xhtml+xml, etc)
  304. # [17:12] <zcorpan> here's such an image: http://simon.html5.org/valid-html5.png
  305. # [17:12] <webben_> thanks
  306. # [17:13] <webben_> now it recognizes the embed as an image
  307. # [17:13] <webben_> still trips up on object though
  308. # [17:14] <Philip`> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/html5/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Fvalid-html5.png - that filename is wrong - it's not valid HTML5
  309. # [17:15] * Joins: the_mart (n=Martin@host86-135-9-158.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
  310. # [17:15] <zcorpan> -_-
  311. # [17:17] <zcorpan> funny how innerHTML in ie remembers whether an attribute had an = or not
  312. # [17:18] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20foo%3E
  313. # [17:18] <zcorpan> vs http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20foo%3D%3E
  314. # [17:19] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20class%3E%3Cp%20class%3D%3E
  315. # [17:21] <zcorpan> interesting
  316. # [17:21] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20class%3E%3Cp%20class%3D%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20style%3E%3Cp%20style%3D%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20id%3E%3Cp%20id%3D%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20foo%3E%3Cp%20foo%3D%3E%0D%0A
  317. # [17:21] <Philip`> so that's at least four different behaviours
  318. # [17:22] <zcorpan> try disabled
  319. # [17:22] <Philip`> Oh, but I only get those four behaviours in IE6, not IE7...
  320. # [17:22] <Philip`> Oh, yes I do
  321. # [17:22] * Philip` was stupid and looking at the wrong part of the page
  322. # [17:23] <Philip`> Okay, five different behaviours
  323. # [17:25] * Joins: Ducki (n=Alex@dialin-145-254-189-032.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  324. # [17:25] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20class%3E%3Cp%20class%3D%3E%3Cp%20class%3D%3D%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20style%3E%3Cp%20style%3D%3E%3Cp%20style%3D%3D%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20id%3E%3Cp%20id%3D%3E%3Cp%20id%3D%3D%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20foo%3E%3Cp%20foo%3D%3E%3Cp%20foo%3D%3D%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%20disabled%3E%3Cp%20disabled%3D%3E%3Cp%20disabled%3D%3D%3E%0D%0A
  325. # [17:26] <zcorpan> <p => :)
  326. # [17:32] <zcorpan> <p=>
  327. # [17:34] <zcorpan> wow, that last one is really weird
  328. # [17:35] <Philip`> Isn't that just the same as <foo>?
  329. # [17:35] <zcorpan> oh wait, i was testing in opera
  330. # [17:36] <zcorpan> <p=> is really weird in opera
  331. # [17:36] <zcorpan> yes, in ie it's the same as <foo>
  332. # [17:37] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20HTML%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3E%3Cp%3D%3Ex%3C/p%3Ex%0D%0A
  333. # [17:37] <Philip`> Opera's innerHTML says "<!DOCTYPE HTML><html><BODY><P><p>x<px</html>"
  334. # [17:38] <Philip`> Oh, but that's exactly the same as for parsing <p><x>x</p>x
  335. # [17:41] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20HTML%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3E%3C%21%3Ex%3C/p%3Ex%0D%0A innerHTML is peculiar in Opera too
  336. # [17:42] <zcorpan> i guess the weird part is that the = is not in the dom
  337. # [17:44] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  338. # [17:45] <Philip`> Looks like all the attributes on <p= p=p> disappear too
  339. # [17:45] <Philip`> but not on <p== p=p>
  340. # [17:46] <zcorpan> not all attributes
  341. # [17:47] <Philip`> Oh, only the first one
  342. # [17:47] <zcorpan> the first is equivalent to <p="p=p">
  343. # [17:47] <zcorpan> seems like the tokenizer thinks it's an attribute
  344. # [17:48] <zcorpan> </p=> closes it
  345. # [17:53] <Philip`> It's kind of worrying that I can't find one single canvas feature whose tests all pass in all of Firefox, Opera and Safari
  346. # [17:55] <Dashiva> getContext?
  347. # [17:56] <Philip`> "There is only one CanvasRenderingContext2D object per canvas, so calling the getContext() method with the 2d argument a second time must return the same object." - but getContext('2d') === getContext('2d') fails in Opera
  348. # [17:57] <Philip`> (at least 9.2 - I'm hoping some issues will be fixed a bit in 9.5...)
  349. # [17:57] <Philip`> (and if they aren't, I probably ought to start submitting bug reports)
  350. # [18:00] <annevk> You probably should
  351. # [18:00] <annevk> Although we do have fixed lots of <canvas> bugs (per my measure of "lots of")
  352. # [18:03] <Philip`> Are all those fixes going to be in the public 9.5 builds (rather than 10.0 or whatever)?
  353. # [18:07] <annevk> yeah
  354. # [18:07] <annevk> some might be in the Wii version already
  355. # [18:07] <annevk> or in Opera Mini 4 (although I'm not 100% sure how that will function with <canvas>)
  356. # [18:10] * annevk wonders how much we should care about RFC3986
  357. # [18:10] <annevk> URL5
  358. # [18:12] <annevk> Lachy, debugging is an important use case for making style= conforming
  359. # [18:12] <Philip`> Ooh, neat, the Opera Mini 4 simulator works
  360. # [18:12] <Lachy> annevk: why?
  361. # [18:12] <Philip`> Too bad it returns BGRA instead of RGBA in getPixelData, so all the automated test results are broken...
  362. # [18:13] <annevk> Lachy, for instance your debugging tool might display an error if you use incorrect markup
  363. # [18:13] <annevk> Philip`, whoa, that sounds like a major bug
  364. # [18:13] <Lachy> maybe
  365. # [18:13] <Philip`> (Actually, I don't know if it's getPixelData or getPixel)
  366. # [18:14] <annevk> Philip`, hmm, we did add some support for getPixelData and putImageData
  367. # [18:14] * Joins: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@dialin-145-254-189-176.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  368. # [18:16] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.62.62) ("cheers")
  369. # [18:16] * Philip` tries testing it properly
  370. # [18:19] <Philip`> Oops, getPixelData isn't very good to test, since it's not spelt that way...
  371. # [18:20] <annevk> heh
  372. # [18:21] <annevk> funny that I just copied your sentence for getPixelData but got the other method name right...
  373. # [18:21] <Philip`> Hmm, getPixel looks nicely broken too
  374. # [18:26] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/pixel.html
  375. # [18:27] <Philip`> Hmm, now Opera Mini gives me java.lang.IllegalStateException
  376. # [18:27] <annevk> they are in different order here
  377. # [18:29] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/operamini.png
  378. # [18:29] <annevk> yeah, get the same here
  379. # [18:29] <annevk> what's the correct order anyway?
  380. # [18:30] <annevk> nm
  381. # [18:30] <Philip`> It should say 12, 34, 56, 127 (or 128) in both cases
  382. # [18:30] <Philip`> (Well, the getPixel case should say 12, 34, 56, 0.5)
  383. # [18:30] <Philip`> (and it shouldn't have a load of random junk at the end, I'm guessing)
  384. # [18:31] <Philip`> Firefox gets it wrong and says 6, 17, 28, 127 because it does premultiplied alpha
  385. # [18:31] <annevk> ouch
  386. # [18:31] * Quits: Ducki (n=Alex@dialin-145-254-189-032.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  387. # [18:32] <Philip`> Also I don't know whether getImageData(...).data is meant to be an actual JS array, or if it's allowed to be another object (like that CanvasPixelArray in Opera)
  388. # [18:39] <Philip`> It's intriguing how Opera Mini 4 fails on http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/toDataURL.complexcolours.html too - all the transparent colours are correct, but the solid one is missing...
  389. # [18:39] * Quits: briansuda (n=briansud@85-220-95-76.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is)
  390. # [18:40] * Philip` goes to fix up his test system to cope with that getImageData bug
  391. # [18:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: does it work for you if I post my comments on the parsing algorithm piecemeal to public-html and say that they are my "detailed review"?
  392. # [18:47] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  393. # [18:52] <Philip`> I also like how Opera Mini shows JPEG artifacts on the <canvas> output :-)
  394. # [18:57] <annevk> Philip`, hmm, the solid color missing could indicate that it expects a float for the alpha value
  395. # [18:57] * annevk ponders
  396. # [19:01] <Philip`> Ah, it looks like that is the case
  397. # [19:01] <Philip`> (which is odd since it works fine in Opera 9.2)
  398. # [19:02] <annevk> maybe it was a fix in the CSS parser
  399. # [19:02] * annevk ponders
  400. # [19:03] <Philip`> CSS3 Color says the alpha value is a <number>, and 1 is a <number>, as far as I can see
  401. # [19:03] <annevk> k
  402. # [19:04] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-ede280cabbc9f267)
  403. # [19:05] * Philip` wishes the Opera Mini simulator had a bigger screen :-p
  404. # [19:08] <annevk> I filed bugs for the getImageData and rgba(... 1)
  405. # [19:09] * Philip` tries to find other regressions
  406. # [19:09] <annevk> much appreciated :)
  407. # [19:09] * annevk notes that getImageData is not a regression but a pretty serious feature bug...
  408. # [19:10] <hsivonen> what's the purpose of the document.write/noscript arrangement at http://demo.opera-mini.net/fourzerobeta/ ?
  409. # [19:11] * hsivonen notes that the foremost Java applet use case (demoing Opera Mini) uses <applet>
  410. # [19:11] <annevk> I've not much against <applet>
  411. # [19:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: one thing that might make sense for research is counting <applet> vs. <object> with Java traits
  412. # [19:14] <hsivonen> my non-researched hunch is that if one embeds an applet, <applet> makes more sense than fighting the <object> windmills
  413. # [19:15] <annevk> keeping it in makes some sense
  414. # [19:15] <annevk> but I'm not really that interested in writing Java applets so I haven't done much about it
  415. # [19:15] <hsivonen> It is totally unclear to me what problem *not keeping it* solves
  416. # [19:16] <annevk> language simplicity is one argument
  417. # [19:16] <hsivonen> it is a rather weak argument if it needs to be specced anyway and <object> is hairier than <applet>
  418. # [19:17] <annevk> well, in theory it's <object data=applet.java>
  419. # [19:17] <annevk> and that actually works in most browsers just not in IE
  420. # [19:19] <Philip`> Hmph, now I just get java.io.IOException when trying to run all the tests...
  421. # [19:20] <annevk> https://bugs.opera.com/
  422. # [19:20] * annevk has to go
  423. # [19:20] <Philip`> Ooh, it worked that time
  424. # [19:22] <Philip`> though it doesn't like me pressing the buttons to record manual results :-(
  425. # [19:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: sure
  426. # [19:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  427. # [19:59] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154)
  428. # [20:08] <Philip`> Hmm, I can get Opera Mini to either run the test cases, or to submit a form, but can't get it to ever do both at the same time, and there's no way I'm going to manually copy out the test results...
  429. # [20:09] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@S010600032f09bd00.vc.shawcable.net)
  430. # [20:11] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  431. # [20:13] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
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  433. # [20:14] * Joins: Ducki (i=Alex@dialin-145-254-187-079.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  434. # [20:16] <Philip`> Aha, looks like Opera Mini doesn't like setInterval at all
  435. # [20:23] <webben_> Lachy: wrt to 3M, AFAICT WIndow-Eyes doesn't even see the Flash object because of the SWFObject insertion; investigation of the same object shows that it isn't exposing any information to MSAA; but captions for video may not use a MSAA interface
  436. # [20:24] <webben_> can't seem to get Window-Eyes to notice the fallback content for object either
  437. # [20:24] <webben_> (though maybe it would if i disabled flash and js etc.)
  438. # [20:25] <webben_> this may of course all be my Window-Eyes incompetence though :)
  439. # [20:33] <Philip`> Opera Mini has a rather odd image that looks kind of like splattered blood on its "Internal server error: Failed to transcode URL" page
  440. # [20:34] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-164-38-101.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  442. # [20:36] * hsivonen tries to shift the kind of signal public-html gets to the whatwg-style direction :-)
  443. # [20:41] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-67-164-38-101.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  444. # [20:43] <webben_> Lachy: "Providing alternative content in the same page or linking to it." ... That's not as a good a solution as progressive enhancement.
  445. # [20:43] <webben_> traditionally alternative sites have a) lagged behind the main page in terms of content and b) not been as "accessible" as they think they are
  446. # [20:43] <webben_> (wrt http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0027.html)
  447. # [20:47] * Quits: Ducki (i=Alex@dialin-145-254-187-079.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Client Quit)
  448. # [20:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-164-38-101.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Nick collision from services.)
  449. # [20:50] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  450. # [20:54] * Philip` finally gets Opera Mini to sort of almost cooperate
  451. # [20:55] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/20070701/tests/results.html - Desktop 9.2 vs Mini 9.5 (with a few missing results because Mini doesn't cooperate enough)
  452. # [20:57] <Philip`> Regressions that I can see: The CSS-colour-outputting code (getPixel, reading fillStyle, etc) writes a load of garbage characters (yay, buffer overflow) instead of the alpha value
  453. # [20:57] <Philip`> Interpolation of gradients with alpha doesn't work - it doesn't draw the gradient at all
  454. # [20:58] <Philip`> ...and I can't find anything else (except the rgba(..., 1) thing, and one case with radial gradients but radial gradients are horribly broken anyway so that doesn't matter)
  455. # [21:00] * Philip` thinks he needs to split up his tests so there's only ~100 on a page at once, because otherwise Opera Mini and WebKit (and Opera to a limited extent) get pretty unhappy
  456. # [21:03] <Philip`> Oh, sorry, looks like that gradient-alpha interpolation thing is just the broken CSS parsing again
  457. # [21:07] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-164-38-101.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  458. # [21:12] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@S010600032f09bd00.vc.shawcable.net)
  459. # [21:15] <hsivonen> hmm. <pre>\n vs. <pre><!-- -->\n
  460. # [21:17] <hsivonen> grr. they are different
  461. # [21:18] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@S010600032f09bd00.vc.shawcable.net)
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  464. # [21:39] * weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
  465. # [21:47] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  466. # [21:48] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  467. # [22:11] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-93-12.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  468. # [22:18] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  469. # [22:18] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-93-12.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  470. # [22:21] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  471. # [22:30] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T71c9.t.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  472. # [22:35] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-93-12.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Nick collision from services.)
  473. # [22:36] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-93-12.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  474. # [22:49] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-17.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  475. # [22:54] * Joins: Jero (n=Jero@d207230.upc-d.chello.nl)
  476. # [23:03] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-17.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  477. # [23:07] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  478. # [23:10] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  479. # [23:19] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-17.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  480. # [23:37] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  481. # [23:45] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  482. # [23:45] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  483. # [23:48] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  484. # [23:50] * Joins: nikola_tesla (i=nagarjun@d60-65-150-197.col.wideopenwest.com)
  485. # Session Close: Mon Jul 02 00:00:00 2007

The end :)