/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-07-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 10 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [00:51] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  134. # [09:29] <zcorpan_> hmm, wonder if "the title element" is right
  135. # [09:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: why?
  136. # [09:33] <zcorpan_> it seems too restrictive relative to what browsers implement
  137. # [09:33] <zcorpan_> and only opera seems to reflect document changes
  138. # [09:34] <zcorpan_> e.g., if you move the title element from head to body, does it stop being the title element?
  139. # [09:35] <zcorpan_> if you insert a new title before the title element, which is "the title element"?
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  145. # [09:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: seems like an opportunity for test-based detailed review. :-)
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  148. # [09:44] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: indeed :)
  149. # [09:44] * zcorpan_ has 10 tests already
  150. # [09:47] <othermaciej> 10 tests for what?
  151. # [09:47] <zcorpan_> document.title
  152. # [09:47] <zcorpan_> getting
  153. # [09:53] <hsivonen> I have no idea how to make a sane streaming approximatin of the AAA
  154. # [09:53] <hsivonen> will leave it undone for now
  155. # [09:54] <zcorpan_> that isn't drocanian?
  156. # [09:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: no, non-conforming and non-draconian
  157. # [09:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: halting is draconian
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  161. # [09:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: sorry. I misread you
  162. # [09:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yes, an approximation that isn't draconian
  163. # [09:55] <hsivonen> (and is thereby non-conforming)
  164. # [09:56] <zcorpan_> ok
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  167. # [10:12] <zcorpan_> wow
  168. # [10:13] <zcorpan_> safari for windows treats .xht files as text/html
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  176. # [10:48] <zcorpan_> where is SVGDocument.title defined?
  177. # [10:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: Section 5.17 in SVG 1.1
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  179. # [10:59] <zcorpan_> thanks
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  182. # [11:43] * zcorpan_ notes that http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#form-submission mixes block and inline content
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  193. # [13:10] <Xiven-> hi, hixie just wanted me to pass on the message to anyone at Opera, that he's currently in the Oslo office canteen, so come along and say hi
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  201. # [14:55] <zcorpan_> Document.renameNode isn't implemented anywhere, is it
  202. # [14:59] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder what renameNode does to implemented interfaces.
  203. # [14:59] * hsivonen looks up DOM3
  204. # [15:00] <hsivonen> oh. it returns a new object
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  209. # [15:13] <zcorpan_> what are the use-cases of renameNode?
  210. # [15:13] <zcorpan_> seems like something that could be dropped in DOM5 Core... ;)
  211. # [15:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: suppose you have a script that walks an XHTML2 document tree and converts it to XHTML5. you'd renameNode separator to hr
  212. # [15:16] <zcorpan_> wouldn't you use XSLT for that?
  213. # [15:17] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) (Remote closed the connection)
  214. # [15:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: not according to http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xslt
  215. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> ok
  216. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> the bigger problem though is serving xhtml2 over the wire in the first place
  217. # [15:18] <hsivonen> sure
  218. # [15:19] <hsivonen> I don't know but I guess that renameNode exists to have full API-provided mutability
  219. # [15:19] <Philip`> You could be using DOM methods on the server side to transform something into XHTML5
  220. # [15:19] <hsivonen> I'd expect to see more use case for renameNode on server-side Java apps than in scripts running in browsers
  221. # [15:19] <hsivonen> cases
  222. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> yeah
  223. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> for client side i can only see the use-case of writing obscure test cases
  224. # [15:21] <hsivonen> on the face of it, it looks like a "nice to have", "for completeness" feature
  225. # [15:21] <zcorpan_> so it could have been useful to me today if it was implemented anywhere
  226. # [15:21] <zcorpan_> yeah
  227. # [15:31] <billyjack> fwiw, I expect we are going to see a lot more developers making use of client-side XSLT now that browser support has improved significantly
  228. # [15:31] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  229. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> for example, Webkit adding support for the node-set() function
  230. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> it is painful to try to get much done on XSLT 1.0 without node-set()
  231. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> s/done on/done itn/
  232. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> done in
  233. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> in in in
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  237. # [15:49] <Philip`> When counting tag frequency, it's a good idea to not parse PDF files
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  243. # [16:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: what makes you think that? :P
  244. # [16:24] <gsnedders> now, back to writing a 1:1 implementation of the common microsyntaxes
  245. # [16:25] <Philip`> The number of tag names which are ~150 characters long and only ever appear once and are full of non-ASCII characters does suggest that some filtering out of non-HTML files would help give slightly cleaner results :-)
  246. # [16:26] <hsivonen> the internationalization bomb is about to go off regarding ratios...
  247. # [16:26] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I saw. We seem to be managing fine with how UAs currently work, though…
  248. # [16:27] <Philip`> I still get a relatively large number of tags named scr"+"ipt - I'm not sure if that suggests it would be worth using a whole HTML parser when trying to do surveys of tag frequency, just to find and exclude the non-PCDATA bits
  249. # [16:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: what do you mean? are there shipped implementations of the ratio algorithm except mine inside the conformance checker?
  250. # [16:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I mean for the other places where numbers are used (@height and @width will be the most widespread)
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  252. # [16:29] <hsivonen> gsnedders: those are attributes--not element content
  253. # [16:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: that's true, but how much of a difference should it really make?
  254. # [16:30] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-67-108.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  255. # [16:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it makes *all* the difference as far as internationazation politics go
  256. # [16:30] <hsivonen> gotta go
  257. # [16:31] <Philip`> Do 'international' people actually use number characters other than 0-9?
  258. # [16:31] <Philip`> I don't know how to find out, but at least http://www.aljazeera.net/ and http://divyabhaskar.co.in/ appear to just have normal digits everywhere
  259. # [16:34] <Philip`> ...and I believe I remember a Hebrew-speaking person say they never use the Hebrew number system
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  262. # [16:52] <Dashiva> Philip`: Which context?
  263. # [16:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: Which context for what?
  264. # [16:56] <Dashiva> Never using hebrew number system
  265. # [16:59] <Philip`> Ah - I can't really remember now, since it was a long time ago and I wasn't paying that much attention at the time :-p
  266. # [17:00] <Philip`> I think it was originally in the context of i18ning a game's UI, but I can't remember what context their comment was in
  267. # [17:01] <Philip`> (I wanted to support duodecimal Quenya numbers too, but I eventually realised that was just stupid)
  268. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> Philip` - Kanji for numbers are used quite commonly in Japanese and Chinese text
  269. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> particuarly when it's written vertically
  270. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> but also in e-mail
  271. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> and other contexts I'm probably forgetting about
  272. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> addresses
  273. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> postal addresses
  274. # [17:42] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  275. # [17:49] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Calculations and time seems to be pretty dominated by roman numerals, though
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  306. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: opera's fosterparenting doesn't seem generic handling in the css... (using divs with display:table etc doesn't result in the same thing)
  307. # [21:14] <zcorpan_> s/seem/seem to be/
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  309. # [21:16] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: opera seems to use an anonymous caption element around the misplaced content
  310. # [21:17] <zcorpan_> (which is similar to what ie does -- only difference is ie actually adds the anonymous element to the dom)
  311. # [21:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok. interesting
  312. # [21:18] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.239)
  313. # [21:18] <zcorpan_> e.g. try caption-side:bottom
  314. # [21:19] <zcorpan_> or * { display:block }
  315. # [21:22] <hsivonen> I wonder why hyatt and Hixie didn't put a caption there. not worth the trouble?
  316. # [21:23] <zcorpan_> instead of moving things around in the dom?
  317. # [21:28] <hsivonen> no, in addition to moving to a different place
  318. # [21:30] <zcorpan_> what's the benefit?
  319. # [21:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: matching IE
  320. # [21:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: probably not worth it
  321. # [21:32] <zcorpan_> it does affect rendering in some cases, but firefox and safari seem to not need it
  322. # [21:33] <zcorpan_> and if you were to add a real "caption" element to the dom, you might break other things
  323. # [21:33] <zcorpan_> ie adds an element with the empty string as tag name
  324. # [21:34] <zcorpan_> how do you select that with css? :)
  325. # [21:35] <hsivonen> oh. crazy.
  326. # [21:36] <zcorpan_> in any case, if we were to use the caption approach, then we wouldn't need to move things around in the dom
  327. # [21:37] <othermaciej> empty string as tag name? for what?
  328. # [21:38] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: parent element of text node "foo" in <table><tr><td>x</tr>foo<tr><td>y</table>
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  330. # [21:39] <othermaciej> awesome
  331. # [21:41] <zcorpan_> come to think of it, opera probably uses the same anonymous element approach with misnested block in inline when the inline styling gets applied to text nodes even though the inline element isn't an ancestor to the text node
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The end :)