/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-12 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sun Aug 12 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  4. # [00:16] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  5. # [00:38] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  6. # [00:42] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@w-mob300-128-62-207-11.public.utexas.edu)
  7. # [00:47] <othermaciej> Molly's post is confusing
  8. # [00:47] <othermaciej> I'm not sure which things she thinks are a problem or why
  9. # [00:48] <takkaria> it seemed a bit of an undirected rant to me
  10. # [00:51] <othermaciej> actually it sounds like a Microsoft enemies ist
  11. # [00:51] <othermaciej> *list
  12. # [00:51] <othermaciej> this might be an accident
  13. # [00:52] <othermaciej> but I know that Microsoft is against many advanced features in HTML5, against the new ECMAScript standards process, and against AIR
  14. # [00:52] <takkaria> AIR?
  15. # [00:52] * takkaria is new around these parts
  16. # [00:53] <othermaciej> it's the Adobe Flash+HTML for local apps thing
  17. # [00:53] <mgdm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR
  18. # [00:55] <takkaria> ah, right. last I heard, it was still Apollo
  19. # [00:56] <takkaria> is that MS as a company that's against them, or the IE team against them?
  20. # [00:56] * mgdm is very new around these parts, hello everyone
  21. # [01:00] <webben> I think folks would benefit from waiting for Molly to clarify her post (or asking her too) rather than trying to guess what she means.
  22. # [01:01] <webben> othermaciej: Is there some document somewhere that explains how the standards process has changed? I wasn't aware it had.
  23. # [01:01] <othermaciej> takkaria: MS is against them because it encroaches on (a) native windows app development with win32 or .NET and (b) Silverlight
  24. # [01:02] * takkaria nods
  25. # [01:02] <takkaria> that's pretty much why they're being added, so I'm not suprised, really
  26. # [01:08] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  27. # [01:10] <othermaciej> well, I commented on Molly's post
  28. # [01:10] <othermaciej> although mostly responding to her, not her commenters
  29. # [01:10] <othermaciej> who seem to be off on another tangent altogether
  30. # [01:20] * Quits: webben (n=webben@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  31. # [01:22] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  32. # [01:23] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  33. # [02:03] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@84.77.4.8)
  34. # [02:06] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  35. # [02:14] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  36. # [02:24] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@spc1-with2-0-0-cust148.bagu.broadband.ntl.com) ("leaving")
  37. # [02:25] <annevk> the comments on molly.com latest post are just sad
  38. # [02:26] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-41-76.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  39. # [02:26] * Joins: takkaria_ (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  40. # [02:27] * takkaria_ is now known as takkaria
  41. # [02:33] <annevk> xml parser error: http://tommorris.org/blog/
  42. # [02:33] * annevk hits "Reparse document as HTML"
  43. # [02:37] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  44. # [02:45] <Philip`> XHTML isn't great at marketing itself, since the only time you ever notice that a site uses XHTML is when it gives you an XML parse error
  45. # [02:50] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-89-143.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  46. # [03:13] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) ("leaving")
  47. # [03:21] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  48. # [03:23] * takkaria is now known as tak|sleep
  49. # [03:31] * weinig is now known as weinig|food
  50. # [03:54] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  51. # [03:58] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  52. # [04:00] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-41-76.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  53. # [04:07] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  54. # [04:41] * weinig|food is now known as weinig
  55. # [05:50] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-24-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  56. # [06:22] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  57. # [06:30] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  58. # [07:01] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  59. # [07:01] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Remote closed the connection)
  60. # [07:02] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  61. # [07:23] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  62. # [07:37] <Hixie> i don't really understand molly
  63. # [07:37] <Hixie> didn't she used to be pro progress?
  64. # [07:42] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if she's as against progress as she sounds
  65. # [07:43] <othermaciej> I thought it was funny that she picked on AIR but not Silverlight
  66. # [07:49] <Lachy> it looks like JF and others are still complaining about pave the cowpaths (see his comment on molly's blog). I think he just misunderstands it, misrepresents it and then objects to it
  67. # [07:49] <Lachy> but I think we need to reword it to make it a little less vague
  68. # [07:50] <Lachy> this is an alternative wording I've come up with:
  69. # [07:50] <Hixie> i still don't really understand why this was never a problem before the w3c htmlwg
  70. # [07:50] <Lachy> Where possible, evaluate the success and failure of existing practices or solutions and consider adopting and/or improving upon them in preference to forbidding them and/or inventing new features.
  71. # [07:51] <tantek> o hai hixie, othermaciej & lachy
  72. # [07:51] <Hixie> lachy: what's the current wording?
  73. # [07:51] <Hixie> hey tantek
  74. # [07:51] <Lachy> hi tantek
  75. # [07:51] * tantek hopes he didn't speak too out of line on molly's post.
  76. # [07:51] <Lachy> Hixie: "When a practice is already widespread among authors, consider adopting it rather than forbidding it or inventing something new."
  77. # [07:52] <Hixie> Lachy: i prefer your new wording, yeah
  78. # [07:52] <othermaciej> hello tantek
  79. # [07:52] <othermaciej> Lachy: I agree it should be reworded, I like your wording
  80. # [07:52] <tantek> Hixie, this *was* a problem before (the new) w3c htmlwg
  81. # [07:52] <othermaciej> Lachy: I do think a lot of people are misunderstanding it
  82. # [07:53] <Lachy> IIRC, a few people have compared pave the cowpaths with adopting tables for layout, since it's so common, but such comparisons miss the point about evaluation the solutions
  83. # [07:53] <othermaciej> Lachy: but some misunderstandings seem to be wildly out of line with even the current wording
  84. # [07:53] <Hixie> lachy: we might want to look at the usemap="" thing as another example for that btw, since it's not accessiblity-related and doesn't involve xml syntax...
  85. # [07:53] <othermaciej> for example, claiming that "pave the cowpaths" would calll for removing particular html features
  86. # [07:53] <tantek> pave the cowpaths is not about adopting markup usage literally - it's about analyzing people's *data* *publication* behaviors
  87. # [07:53] <Hixie> Lachy: it highlights the focus on research
  88. # [07:54] <tantek> at least in the context of microformats
  89. # [07:54] <tantek> people are starting to use "pave the cowpaths" out of context
  90. # [07:54] <Hixie> though as othermaciej says, that's probably best given as a separate principle
  91. # [07:54] <Hixie> to avoid confusing people
  92. # [07:54] <othermaciej> I think the principle might need a new name as well as new text along lines proposed by Lachy
  93. # [07:55] <Lachy> one issue with that new wording is that it sounds a lot like Don't Reinvent the Wheel
  94. # [07:55] <tantek> i'm ok with confused people as long as they keep their dialog civil
  95. # [07:55] <Hixie> tantek: what i meant about the problem is that before the w3c htmlwg started, we had very few people argue from a position of authority rather than using rational discussion and basing their opinions on research
  96. # [07:56] <tantek> interesting
  97. # [07:56] <Hixie> tantek: still now, indeed, the discussions in whatwg's list are more rational than many on public-html (though there has been much progress on that front in public-html, i must admit)
  98. # [07:56] <tantek> well that's hopeful
  99. # [07:56] <Hixie> it might just be that the w3c community has fostered the development of "experts" whose entire careers are positioned around being on working groups and having their way
  100. # [07:58] <Lachy> yeah, Ben Millard on public-html has done some good work on finding table examples for doing research on headers. I wish that had happened when the headers debate started and we were asking for it
  101. # [07:58] <Lachy> but at least it is improving now
  102. # [07:58] <Hixie> yeah
  103. # [07:58] <Hixie> i'm gonna have to look at that issue soon, i have a ton of data i collected in early july about it
  104. # [07:59] <Hixie> i guess i can do that after <img alt>
  105. # [07:59] <Lachy> what needs to be done for alt?
  106. # [08:00] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@121-72-130-73.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  107. # [08:04] <Hixie> see the spec for my wip revamp of <img alt>
  108. # [08:08] <Lachy> Hixie, another example for a piece of text with an alternate graphical representation would be some company logos
  109. # [08:08] <Hixie> yeah
  110. # [08:09] <tantek> Hixie, yeah I need to write up the table headers usage examples for hCalendar more properly
  111. # [08:09] <Lachy> You're also missing "An iconic representation of the surrounding content" - it's similar to "graphical representation of some of the surrounding text", but not quite the same
  112. # [08:10] <tantek> wow: http://twitter.com/rogerjohansson/statuses/200225882
  113. # [08:11] <Lachy> see, for example, http://www.webnauts.net/ - the wheelchair icon represents the concept of accessibility, the magnifying glass represents SEO, etc.
  114. # [08:11] <Lachy> (although, the alt text used on that site is ironically inappropriate)
  115. # [08:15] <Lachy> woah, this is surprising too http://twitter.com/rogerjohansson/statuses/132542642
  116. # [08:17] <tantek> clearly Roger felt bullied whether or not he actually was
  117. # [08:18] <othermaciej> I'm not sure why he felt bullied
  118. # [08:18] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  119. # [08:18] <tantek> i think there is a bit of a culture transition clash going on
  120. # [08:19] <othermaciej> I don't see that many messages from him, and none that are in my public-html folder seem to have engendered particularly heated responses
  121. # [08:19] <Lachy> some people, particularly the accessibility advocates, just have difficulty seeing our point of view and object whenever someone questions the conventional wisdom
  122. # [08:20] <Lachy> I'll speak to Roger later and find out what he really thinks
  123. # [08:20] <tantek> standards organizations, and w3c is no exception, often designed things "a priori", depending on the opinion of "experts" to just "pick the right thing" a priori, based on their expertise.
  124. # [08:21] <tantek> the approach that microformats (and apparently WHATWG) is taking with scientifically challenging features and demanding justification through research/evidence is quite new
  125. # [08:21] <tantek> and quite threatening to those that are used to simply getting their way because they say so
  126. # [08:21] <tantek> as in, how dare anyone question their expertise?
  127. # [08:21] <tantek> shouldn't their expertise be sufficient to justify things?
  128. # [08:23] <Lachy> one thing I've also noticed is that some people refuse to look at the issues from the authoring point of view, and only consider the benefits for those with accessibility-related needs
  129. # [08:23] <tantek> yes, i've noticed that tooo
  130. # [08:24] <tantek> it's like, just because you ask, people aren't necessarily going to do it. econ 101, psych 101 etc.
  131. # [08:24] <Lachy> i.e. they advocate features regardless of how easy they are for authors, and refuse to consider authoring incentives beyond legal and moral arguments
  132. # [08:24] <othermaciej> it really depends on what the standards body in question is, as far as past experience goes
  133. # [08:24] <tantek> Lachy, to be fair, *some* advocate features that way
  134. # [08:25] <tantek> painting all accessibility advocates with the same brush is inaccurate
  135. # [08:25] <othermaciej> my understanding is that, for instance, things like the C99 or H.264 had quite a bit of empirical work go into changes
  136. # [08:25] <Lachy> yeah, I realise it's not all, but it is at least a few of the more vocal ones
  137. # [08:25] <othermaciej> go into their design rather
  138. # [08:25] <tantek> yes on both counts
  139. # [08:26] <othermaciej> I have seen a number of people appear to take the stance that disagreeing with their preferred technical approach means you are against human rights
  140. # [08:26] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  141. # [08:26] <Lachy> indeed, though I think some recent discussions clarified that a bit
  142. # [08:27] <othermaciej> voicing opinions like that tends to lead to communication breakdown
  143. # [08:27] <othermaciej> John Foliot still seems to stand by this stance
  144. # [08:27] <othermaciej> I say this based on both his comment post on Molly's blog and some private communication after I raised that issue
  145. # [08:27] <tantek> indeed, labeling someone "against human rights" is quite close to Godwin's law.
  146. # [08:28] <tantek> and of course, one should simply call out such ad hominem attacks for what they are
  147. # [08:29] * Lachy google's Godwin's law
  148. # [08:29] <Lachy> ah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
  149. # [08:29] <tantek> ah yes John Foliot. he's the one that provided the most ad hominem attack fodder
  150. # [08:30] <Lachy> tantek: also the one to most vocally complain about the attitude problems
  151. # [08:30] <tantek> keep pointing out peoples' ad hominem attacks, for those are the true attitude problems
  152. # [08:30] <tantek> if you can't be civil, then you have an attitude problem and don't deserve any sympathy
  153. # [08:31] <tantek> or put more economically, IMHO, uncivil comments are lower priority than civil comments
  154. # [08:59] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-1562dfdb61c10418)
  155. # [09:01] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=w@114.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  156. # [09:19] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@114.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  157. # [09:22] * Quits: dolphinling (n=chatzill@rbpool2-75.shoreham.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  158. # [10:14] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154)
  159. # [10:34] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  160. # [11:00] * tak|sleep is now known as takkaria
  161. # [11:11] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-24-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  162. # [11:14] <takkaria> http://twitter.com/rogerjohansson/statuses/200225882
  163. # [11:17] <takkaria> oh. wrong window there
  164. # [11:17] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@84.77.4.8) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  165. # [11:35] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  166. # [12:06] * Joins: Codler (n=Codler@84-218-5-107.eurobelladsl.telenor.se)
  167. # [12:10] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-194.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  168. # [12:15] * Joins: Ducki (n=Ducki@d83-176-151-170.cust.tele2.de)
  169. # [12:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Re: attribute parsing, I don't have anything to add to what Philip` said
  170. # [12:16] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  171. # [12:17] * hsivonen suffers from a bad case of sudden summer flu and should probably go offline instead of reading irc logs
  172. # [12:18] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Roger Johansson removed the twitters mentioned in the IRC log today
  173. # [12:33] <zcorpan> btw, ben millard and me have discussed possible ways to improve the table headers algorithm
  174. # [12:34] <zcorpan> it will probably be forwarded to the list at some point
  175. # [12:35] <zcorpan> the current algorithm is inadequate for many tables
  176. # [12:59] * Joins: Darkluna (n=Codler@84-218-5-127.eurobelladsl.telenor.se)
  177. # [13:09] <Lachy> I had a long, rational and very productive discussion with Roger on ICQ a few hours ago. I think we were able to clarify a lot of issues and understand each others perspectives a lot better.
  178. # [13:09] <Lachy> I suspect that's why he removed the twitters
  179. # [13:12] * Quits: Codler (n=Codler@84-218-5-107.eurobelladsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  180. # [13:33] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lafbe.l.pppool.de)
  181. # [13:39] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-168-4-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502]")
  182. # [13:40] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  183. # [13:44] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-168-4-56.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  184. # [13:52] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  185. # [13:53] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  186. # [13:53] * Quits: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com) (Client Quit)
  187. # [13:53] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  188. # [14:01] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-168-4-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502]")
  189. # [14:05] * Joins: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c9.pool.mediaWays.net)
  190. # [14:15] * Quits: Ducki (n=Ducki@d83-176-151-170.cust.tele2.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  191. # [14:17] * Quits: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c9.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  192. # [14:32] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  193. # [14:32] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  194. # [14:57] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-89-143.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  195. # [14:59] * Joins: Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com)
  196. # [14:59] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  197. # [15:00] <zcorpan> yo
  198. # [15:00] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  199. # [15:00] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  200. # [15:00] <Whiskey_M> hi Zcorpan, how goes?
  201. # [15:01] <zcorpan> goes well thank you, you?
  202. # [15:01] <Whiskey_M> none too shabby :-)
  203. # [15:25] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  204. # [15:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@124-168-4-56.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  205. # [15:33] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  206. # [15:50] * Darkluna is now known as Codler
  207. # [15:58] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  208. # [16:02] * Quits: Codler (n=Codler@84-218-5-127.eurobelladsl.telenor.se) ("- nbs-irc 2.21 - www.nbs-irc.net -")
  209. # [16:52] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@w-mob300-128-62-207-11.public.utexas.edu)
  210. # [16:55] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@96.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  211. # [17:05] <met_> http://manwithnoblog.com/2007/08/12/are-we-becoming-complacent/
  212. # [17:08] <Whiskey_M> read it earlier today
  213. # [17:08] <Lachy> wow, see Joe's comment on molly's article. http://www.molly.com/2007/08/11/dear-w3c-dear-wasp/#comment-611988
  214. # [17:10] <Whiskey_M> isn't that normal Joe ;-)
  215. # [17:18] <Lachy> possibly, but it's ironic that he said that after my comment explaining that we are not against accessibility features. I just don't understand why he'd come back with a strawman argument about us dropping the alt attribute
  216. # [17:25] * virtuelv notes that he respectfully disagrees with fantasai on browser vendor influence over CSS
  217. # [17:26] <virtuelv> from http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2007/css-wg-opening-up/
  218. # [17:41] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136)
  219. # [17:47] * Joins: Ducki (n=Ducki@213-102-92-251.cust.tele2.de)
  220. # [17:48] * Joins: sirPalook (n=chatzill@athedsl-300001.home.otenet.gr)
  221. # [17:49] <sirPalook> Noob (just read the specs). So in <p><tt><b>foo</p>, 'tt' and 'b' are *not* closed, but cloned?
  222. # [17:53] <sirPalook> In the DOM that is
  223. # [17:54] <Philip`> If you have something after that (other than a </b> or </tt> or EOF), then yes
  224. # [17:54] <Philip`> http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3Cp%3E%3Ctt%3E%3Cb%3Efoo%3C%2Fp%3Ebar
  225. # [17:54] <Lachy> sirPalook, yes, I believe they are reopened after the P element, or inside any following block level element (the adoption agency algorithm is confusing)
  226. # [17:55] <sirPalook> I'm trying to figure out the differences with SGML, which theoretically sais that every closing tag closes all open tags...
  227. # [17:55] <sirPalook> Yep, thanks.
  228. # [17:56] <Lachy> sirPalook, yes, that's the theory and that's how OpenSP implemented it. Not sure if that's actually defined in the SGML spec, though
  229. # [17:56] <sirPalook> If i understand correctly, cloning happens for "Formatting tags"
  230. # [17:56] <Lachy> yes
  231. # [17:56] <sirPalook> Lachy. Yep I never invested any precious brain cells on SGML either :)
  232. # [17:59] * Philip` wonders if it's possible to get worse than quadratic behaviour
  233. # [17:59] <Philip`> (i.e. worse than http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3Cp%3E%3Cb%3E%3Cb%3E%3Cb%3E%3Cb%3E%3Cb%3Ex%3Cp%3Ex%3Cp%3Ex%3Cp%3Ex%3Cp%3Ex )
  234. # [18:01] <sirPalook> nice one. Although I think that DOM sais the "clones" point to the same thing.
  235. # [18:02] <sirPalook> It's interesting what happens with <A NAME=> though
  236. # [18:02] * Quits: Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com)
  237. # [18:08] <Philip`> Not quite sure what you mean about <A NAME=>
  238. # [18:09] <hendry> hsivonen: do you have an idea with the element isn't used by UAs anymore really for aiding navigation?
  239. # [18:09] <hendry> hsivonen: do you have an idea with the LINK element isn't used by UAs anymore really for aiding navigation?
  240. # [18:11] <hasather_> hendry: at least Opera uses it
  241. # [18:11] * Lachy responded to Joe
  242. # [18:12] <Lachy> ... on molly's blog
  243. # [18:12] <Lachy> I hope this clears up the issue http://www.molly.com/2007/08/11/dear-w3c-dear-wasp/#comment-612166
  244. # [18:12] <Philip`> Does Opera use anything other than <link rel=next>?
  245. # [18:13] <hendry> i have loads <links on my blog natalian.org. I think I should remove them.
  246. # [18:13] <hasather_> Philip`: yes
  247. # [18:14] <hasather_> Philip`: activate the navigation bar (Appearance > Toolbar >Navigation bar)
  248. # [18:15] <Philip`> hasather_: Aha, thanks - I never noticed that before
  249. # [18:19] <hendry> hasather_: it's useless on natalian.org :) /me wonders if i can get that view on Opera mobile
  250. # [18:19] * Joins: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d5.pool.mediaWays.net)
  251. # [18:20] <virtuelv> hendry: afaik, no
  252. # [18:21] <virtuelv> besides, it only uses known values for rel
  253. # [18:22] * Philip` wonders if it's possible to use some kind of heuristics to decide whether a longdesc string is an attempt at writing a URL or is (as seems far more common) a descriptive phrase
  254. # [18:23] <Lachy> I think Hixie was going to attempt something like that, there are ways you could test it
  255. # [18:23] <Philip`> (By "far more common", I mean I looked at about six pages which use longdesc, and most were text instead of links)
  256. # [18:24] <Philip`> If people are going to the effort of writing long descriptions, it seems unhelpful to just ignore them because they never knew it should have been a link instead
  257. # [18:24] <Lachy> check if it begins with http://, search the string for spaces (which would indicate a phrase), attempt to resolve and retrieve the URL, etc
  258. # [18:26] <Lachy> could you just produce a page that lists all the values found in longdesc attributes, and check it manually?
  259. # [18:26] <Lachy> it shouldn't be too hard for someone to visually inspect the list and recognise phrases vs. URLs
  260. # [18:27] * takkaria volunteers to do such inspection
  261. # [18:27] * Quits: sirPalook (n=chatzill@athedsl-300001.home.otenet.gr) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  262. # [18:30] <Lachy> Philip`, you could also compare the value with the alt attribute and list the values for alt and longdesc side by side on the result page
  263. # [18:30] <Philip`> I don't have any data about attribute values at the moment - all I've got is the list at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/attr/longdesc
  264. # [18:31] <Lachy> well, we can rule out wikipedia, since they use it incorrectly and also redundantly
  265. # [18:31] <Philip`> ...but it shouldn't require significant effort to get some data about alt/longdesc/etc in particular, since they're not that rare
  266. # [18:32] <Philip`> (though I don't have code that handles non-ASCII character encodings at all correctly, which is a pain if you're trying to actually read the text on a page)
  267. # [18:34] <Lachy> schirmer.com has empty longdesc=""
  268. # [18:35] <Lachy> I think Hixie was also going to compare the longdesc attribute with the value of the surrounding <a href="">, if any
  269. # [18:35] <Lachy> there should be some discussion of this research in the IRC logs somewhere
  270. # [18:36] <Lachy> the 4th result in your list, for instance, links to the same page, as does wikipedia
  271. # [18:37] <Lachy> tv.com has <iframe longdesc="">!
  272. # [18:38] <takkaria> shakedown.fi seems to replicate the title text as longdesc
  273. # [18:39] * Quits: Ducki (n=Ducki@213-102-92-251.cust.tele2.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  274. # [18:39] <Philip`> <IMG align="left" alt="Aurajoen soudut" longdesc="Aurajoen soudut" src="images/aurajoki.jpg" title="Aurajoen soudut">
  275. # [18:39] <Lachy> oh, HTML4 allows longdesc on iframe. I didn't realise that
  276. # [18:40] <takkaria> Philip`: but a fair few of them don't have alt text at all
  277. # [18:40] <Philip`> (See http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tagattr/iframe/longdesc vs http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tagattr/frame/longdesc vs http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tagattr/img/longdesc if you're interested in a specific tag)
  278. # [18:41] <takkaria> heh, a longdesc with the same value as src
  279. # [18:42] <takkaria> stopitnow.com: <img src="images/logo-homer.gif" alt="stopitnowlogo" ... longdesc="images/logo-homer.gif">
  280. # [18:46] <takkaria> puntoluce.tv uses longdesc on a product image to link to that product's page; most of the others I've tried have either been attempts at keyword spam, or have been links to the image or to the page they're on
  281. # [18:50] <takkaria> ACLU in Iowa seem to use it on a "get adobe reader!" image to point to the download page; I wonder if that's copy-and-pasted from an adobe webpage?
  282. # [18:53] * Joins: Codler (n=Codler@84-218-5-159.eurobelladsl.telenor.se)
  283. # [18:58] <met_> Lachy, isn't the story about dropping alt based on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-embedded.html#the-img where "alt" isn't marked as required, although bellow is written "The text is given by the alt attribute, which must be present and must have a non-empty value"?
  284. # [18:59] <takkaria> based on those links (on img), longdesc is generally misused and even when it, there's little useful information there
  285. # [19:00] <takkaria> if some more links could be dredged up from somewhere, I'd go through and put together a wiki page on longdesc usage
  286. # [19:01] <Lachy> takkaria, you can use either the whatwg wiki or the HTML WG section of the W3C wiki
  287. # [19:01] <takkaria> I think I prefer the whatwg one, mediawiki's friendlier
  288. # [19:02] <takkaria> I'll go through the links there after a bite to eat
  289. # [19:02] * takkaria bbl
  290. # [19:02] <Lachy> met_, look at last alternative titled "A key part of the content that has no textual alternative", that says "no alt" below
  291. # [19:02] <Lachy> that appears to be why it's no longer required
  292. # [19:04] <Lachy> I wasn't aware of that change until tonight, but it's going to make the validation issue interesting. It's useful to know when an alt has been omitted by mistake, so maybe validators would have to starrt issuing warnings instead.
  293. # [19:05] <met_> ah I see
  294. # [19:06] <Lachy> I'm not sure why there is a distinction between no alt and alt="" in the spec
  295. # [19:07] <met_> but I think that examples mentioned there are not good example, I would prefer even alt="screenshot" before blank alt (personal opinion) - maybe find better examples where alt realle has not sense?
  296. # [19:09] <Lachy> hmm. Maybe, I'm not sure what the best approach is with screenshots and alt text.
  297. # [19:10] <Lachy> it might be good to look up some guidelines about alt usage (like Jukka's pages, htmlhelp.com, etc.)
  298. # [19:10] <met_> just looking in czech accessibility book and there is good example: when has image only decorative meaning e.g. decorative illistration there is preferer blank alt, maybe this
  299. # [19:13] <met_> like this http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/eveningnews/main3420.shtml - every article has some small picture, which often has no information and is mainly for decorative purposes, to draw readers attention
  300. # [19:15] <Lachy> yeah, I call those iconic representations
  301. # [19:16] <met_> or here the man and 2 women http://en.navrcholu.cz/
  302. # [19:16] <Lachy> though, on News sites like that, the pictures often have associated captions
  303. # [19:16] <met_> ok its not in 100%
  304. # [19:17] <Lachy> yeah, but you're right. I already mentioned this exact issue to Hixie earlier today
  305. # [19:17] <Lachy> or yesterday, actually
  306. # [19:18] * Quits: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d5.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  307. # [19:49] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@w-mob300-128-62-207-11.public.utexas.edu)
  308. # [19:57] <zcorpan> hmm. why is the distributed spec out of sync with svn?
  309. # [20:00] <zcorpan> some issue with revisions after r999?
  310. # [20:01] <zcorpan> r999 was 2007-08-10, the spec header says 11 August 2007
  311. # [20:01] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
  312. # [20:02] * takkaria starts doing some research on longdesc properly
  313. # [20:07] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  314. # [20:08] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  315. # [20:15] * Quits: Codler (n=Codler@84-218-5-159.eurobelladsl.telenor.se) (Connection timed out)
  316. # [20:16] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  317. # [20:16] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-215.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  318. # [20:16] <zcorpan_> http://methisto.blogspot.com/2007/08/html5-trailer-find-your-hero.html
  319. # [20:18] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  320. # [20:18] <zcorpan_> krijnh: in the logs, perhaps you could have a default right border or padding so that the text doesn't jump around when you hover it?
  321. # [20:37] <Lachy> cool trailer :-)
  322. # [20:38] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-194.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  323. # [20:40] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lafbe.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  324. # [20:44] <Hixie> zcorpan_: the draft on whatwg.org is my working copy -- i updated it to let people see my wip on alt="", but it's not done yet
  325. # [21:33] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com)
  326. # [21:35] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  327. # [21:35] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Remote closed the connection)
  328. # [21:36] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  329. # [21:43] <takkaria> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Longdesc_usage
  330. # [21:43] <takkaria> if anyone's interested
  331. # [21:44] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@121-72-130-73.dsl.telstraclear.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  332. # [21:44] <takkaria> of the 62 pages that philip gave with <img longdesc="">, I reckon two of them are valid uses according to the spec
  333. # [21:44] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@121-72-130-73.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  334. # [21:51] <Philip`> Two? That's probably better than td@headers :-)
  335. # [21:51] <takkaria> one of them is explaining what an acessibility icon means
  336. # [21:52] <takkaria> the other one at one point links to a text/plain document telling the user they can download speech software to hear the website
  337. # [21:53] <takkaria> overall, I'd have to say that longdesc is horribly broken
  338. # [21:53] <Philip`> The data does appear to suggest that invisible metadata is bad - authors get no feedback when they do it wrong, and so they almost never get it right
  339. # [21:54] <Philip`> "3 of which look like SEO attempts (13, 18, 48, 61)" - that's four, not three
  340. # [21:55] <takkaria> true
  341. # [21:55] * takkaria fixes
  342. # [21:55] <takkaria> if I ever do this again, I'm going to use something other than pen and paper
  343. # [21:56] <Philip`> Perhaps it'd be possible to use html5lib to extract the relevant data from the pages
  344. # [21:57] <takkaria> well, I used a system of curl'ing all the pages to numerically numbered files, then grepping them for "longdesc", then noting down in a column what category they fit into
  345. # [21:57] <takkaria> hooking up html5lib to a "is this right? yes/no" UI would simplify it a lot in future, I imagine
  346. # [21:57] <takkaria> I don't know python or ruby, though, so I'm no help there
  347. # [21:58] <Philip`> An html5grep might be nice
  348. # [21:58] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  349. # [21:58] <Philip`> (so you can find elements/attributes/etc without worrying about case-sensitivity or extraneous whitespace or whatever)
  350. # [22:03] <Philip`> http://search.cpan.org/dist/XML-Twig/tools/xml_grep/xml_grep - ah, there's already at least one XML one - all it needs is an HTML5 parser stuck on the front
  351. # [22:04] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-73fd7878da5a9772)
  352. # [22:15] <takkaria> what should I do with that page? should I post it to public-html or whatwg?
  353. # [22:25] * Philip` doesn't know whether the chance of starting a new longdesc discussion on public-html should be considered an opportunity or a danger
  354. # [22:26] <takkaria> I reckon it's probably a danger at the moment
  355. # [22:26] <takkaria> I just wonder what to do with the page now I've made it. :)
  356. # [22:27] <Hixie> i recommend waiting until i post my results and start looking at the topic, and then forwarding it to the relevant list :-)
  357. # [22:27] <Philip`> Maybe you could mention it on the WHATWG list so people know it exists, and when some longdesc discussion starts again on public-html then point to the page since it's useful data
  358. # [22:28] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  359. # [22:28] <takkaria> Hixie: I can do that, assuming I'm still subscribed in a couple years' time ^_^
  360. # [22:29] <Hixie> that's a pretty cool study
  361. # [22:29] <Hixie> were _any_ of them correctly used?
  362. # [22:30] <takkaria> two, sort=of. but while they might have been correct, they weren't useful
  363. # [22:30] <takkaria> I was greatly amused by the number of sites trying to do SEO though
  364. # [22:31] <Philip`> How many were non-correct but would still be useful if a UA acted in a certain way?
  365. # [22:31] * Hixie logs in to his work computer to see what his own longdesc study's results were like and finds that his ruby parser study, which he was running over the weekend, completed
  366. # [22:31] <Hixie> sweet
  367. # [22:34] <Hixie> let's see
  368. # [22:34] <Hixie> longdesc
  369. # [22:34] <takkaria> Philip`: er, I'm not sure any
  370. # [22:34] <hsivonen> w many were non-correct but would still be useful if a UA acted in a certain way?
  371. # [22:34] <hsivonen> oops. sorry
  372. # [22:35] <Hixie> so my script found some hundred billion or so longdescs
  373. # [22:35] <Hixie> er
  374. # [22:35] <Hixie> hundred billion or so <img>s rather
  375. # [22:35] <Hixie> of which about a hundred billion had no longdesc=""
  376. # [22:36] <Hixie> of the hundred million or so that _did_ have longdesc and src and in which neither was blank:
  377. # [22:37] <Hixie> about 800 thousand had longdesc = src
  378. # [22:37] <Hixie> about 85 million had longdesc = an ancestor <a href>
  379. # [22:37] <Hixie> about 7 million pointed to the root of another domain (!)
  380. # [22:38] * takkaria nods, I got a fair few pointing to the root of another domain
  381. # [22:38] <Hixie> about 12 million had a space in the longdesc
  382. # [22:38] * Philip` wonders if the 85 million includes the two million pages of Wikipedia * average number of images per page
  383. # [22:38] <Hixie> basically i got it down to about 8 million potentially useful longdesc=""s that need further study
  384. # [22:39] <Hixie> Philip`: might well
  385. # [22:39] <Hixie> Philip`: wikimedia in general
  386. # [22:39] <takkaria> nice stats
  387. # [22:40] <Hixie> looking at the sample of those 8 million, most seem to be URIs to images
  388. # [22:40] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:STS-118_launch_M-cropped.jpg - that one page has five longdescs which match ancestor hrefs
  389. # [22:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you going to post a summary of the results to public-html?
  390. # [22:41] <Hixie> the result, i think, though, is that longdesc="" data is so widely abused and corrupt that an accessibility tool would get better usability without supporting it than with supporting it
  391. # [22:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, when i look at longdesc=""
  392. # [22:42] * takkaria nods
  393. # [22:42] <takkaria> ach, I best be off, bbl
  394. # [22:43] <Philip`> Can an accessibility tool get better usability by automatically determining (/guessing) whether a longdesc is valid or not?
  395. # [22:43] <Hixie> hard to say
  396. # [22:44] <Hixie> i don't know how the heuristic would work
  397. # [22:44] * takkaria is now known as tak|away
  398. # [22:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: comparing with ancestor href='' and doing a HEAD request to see if the resource is another image
  399. # [22:45] <Hixie> look at, e.g.: http://photofile.ru/users/marusyan/?page=2
  400. # [22:46] <Hixie> several of the longdesc=""s on that page look useful to that heuristic
  401. # [22:48] <zcorpan_> Hixie: ah, ok
  402. # [22:52] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Talk:Longdesc_usage
  403. # [22:52] <Philip`> The exact heuristic could be left as an area for UA developers to innovate in
  404. # [22:56] <Hixie> i think before we give ATs things to innovate on, we should wait for their products to become usable in the first place.
  405. # [23:06] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  406. # [23:09] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) (Remote closed the connection)
  407. # [23:22] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@96.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  408. # [23:29] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136) ("bedtime")
  409. # [23:43] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-194-36.range86-138.btcentralplus.com)
  410. # [23:46] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  411. # [23:48] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-194-36.range86-138.btcentralplus.com)
  412. # [23:55] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  413. # Session Close: Mon Aug 13 00:00:00 2007

The end :)