/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  19. # [02:13] <kingryan> it seems that the sniffing section doesn't mention BOMs
  20. # [02:13] <kingryan> I wonder if that's on purpose
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  22. # [02:15] <kingryan> Hixie ?
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  30. # [02:48] <Hixie> kingryan: here now
  31. # [02:48] <kingryan> I was wondering about BOMs in the html vs feed sniffing
  32. # [02:49] <kingryan> the other sniffing subsections mentoin BOMs, but not that one. is it for a reason?
  33. # [02:49] * Hixie looks
  34. # [02:50] <kingryan> I also sent email about this a minute ago
  35. # [02:50] <kingryan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#content-type3 is the relevant section
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  37. # [02:52] <Hixie> oh you mean why doesn't it skip over a UTF-8 BOM if it sees one at the start?
  38. # [02:53] <Hixie> i suppose i could add a step between steps 4 and 5 that skips a BOM if there is one
  39. # [02:53] <kingryan> yes, that's what I mean
  40. # [02:54] <kingryan> it'd be useful to add a step there. I implemented that section very literally, then it failed on test cases that had BOMs
  41. # [02:55] <kingryan> I was able to figure out the problem quickly, but it'd be nice if the spec was explicit about that
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  43. # [02:58] <Hixie> kingryan: k
  44. # [02:59] <kingryan> thanks
  45. # [02:59] <Hixie> kingryan: i've saved your e-mail to my parsing/sniffing pile
  46. # [02:59] <Hixie> hopefully it was clear enough that i'll understand what it means when i look at it :-)
  47. # [02:59] <kingryan> I hope so too
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  85. # [07:25] <Lachy> Is there anything Rob won't object to?https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189643#c7
  86. # [07:25] <othermaciej> impressive
  87. # [07:27] <karlUshi> Lachy: given that people banned +1 on the list :) I guess yes when people expressed themselves is usually to disagree. Then after it's always difficult to consider how much energy and bandwidth do we have when we object.
  88. # [07:27] <karlUshi> Sometimes I don't fight for some issues because I just do not have time for it
  89. # [07:27] <karlUshi> and I expect someone else will do it later on.
  90. # [07:28] * Hixie closes the aforementioned bug
  91. # [07:29] <Hixie> and as qa contact, it's my responsibility to do so!
  92. # [07:29] <othermaciej> conflict of interest!
  93. # [07:29] <karlUshi> heheh
  94. # [07:30] <Lachy> I also filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=392994 (Rob hasn't objected there yet)
  95. # [07:31] <Hixie> he probably didn't know about it before you posted it on irc just now
  96. # [07:32] <Lachy> yeah, I know, but I figured there would be others in here who would be interested in it despite that
  97. # [07:33] <Hixie> lol, he just commented
  98. # [07:34] * Joins: molly (n=mollyhol@ip70-171-192-31.tc.ph.cox.net)
  99. # [07:34] <molly> :: shakes off whatever logic might have been stuck to her ::
  100. # [07:34] <molly> Hi everyone!
  101. # [07:34] <Hixie> hey molly
  102. # [07:34] <molly> Ian, how are you?
  103. # [07:34] <molly> nice to see you
  104. # [07:36] <molly> who else is around?
  105. # [07:36] <molly> I never know, I'm so time-zone impaired
  106. # [07:37] <molly> Lachy?
  107. # [07:37] <karlUshi> hi molly
  108. # [07:37] <molly> Hiya
  109. # [07:37] <Lachy> molly?
  110. # [07:37] <Hixie> it's pretty much active 24h/day around here
  111. # [07:37] <molly> Hi Lachy!
  112. # [07:37] <molly> just have to poke 'em ;-)
  113. # [07:37] <karlUshi> 2:37pm here
  114. # [07:37] <molly> 10:38 Monday night here
  115. # [07:37] <molly> i have ice cream! Anyone want ice cream?
  116. # [07:38] <othermaciej> hello Molly
  117. # [07:38] <karlUshi> with the 35deg C out there that would be welcome
  118. # [07:38] <molly> hey Maciej (I just cannot call you othermaciej, you are my only maciej)
  119. # [07:38] <karlUshi> ooops 32ºC only today http://weather.yahoo.co.jp/weather/jp/14/4610/14205/2520816.html
  120. # [07:38] <molly> hey, I'll up you on that karlUshi, it's hotter here
  121. # [07:38] * Lachy wants ice cream
  122. # [07:39] <karlUshi> maybe at the TPAC molly ;)
  123. # [07:39] <karlUshi> in the so hoooot Boston
  124. # [07:39] <molly> I have three flavors: Triple Chocolate, Butter Pecan, and Mint Chocolate Chip
  125. # [07:39] <molly> Hey KarlUshi, i'll be there
  126. # [07:39] <molly> awesome!
  127. # [07:40] <molly> I like getting to talk to folks F2f and meet up
  128. # [07:40] <karlUshi> good luck molly, you know there are these folks who only talk through IRC :) bring your computer. F2F by IRC :p (half joking)
  129. # [07:41] <karlUshi> Though last time at Xtech in Paris, it was quite lively
  130. # [07:41] <molly> karlUshi, I'm a girl. We're known for our multitasking skills!
  131. # [07:41] <Hixie> aw man, rob burns is starting to send his e-mails twice under different subject lines
  132. # [07:41] <molly> I liked it. It was a beginning.
  133. # [07:41] * Hixie isn't going to be able to keep up with the e-mail flood if people start sending dupes
  134. # [07:42] <molly> @hixie I don't know how you do now
  135. # [07:42] <molly> the single biggest barrier to entry
  136. # [07:42] <molly> too much stuff to read.
  137. # [07:43] <hober> I've managed to stay on top of the list, but that doesn't leave much time to actually write posts to it. :)
  138. # [07:43] <Hixie> molly: i read pretty much all the mail on the list at the moment
  139. # [07:44] * Lachy updates Selectors-API based based on Working Group vote and hopes the naming issue is resolved for good! http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/selectors-api/Overview.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
  140. # [07:44] <molly> Hixie, that's so cool. You know I'm in awe.
  141. # [07:44] <molly> Truly, truly.
  142. # [07:44] <karlUshi> Too much too read? :)))) un chef d'oeuvre - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Com%A9die_humaine
  143. # [07:44] <molly> needs to be even more simplistic
  144. # [07:44] <molly> sad but true
  145. # [07:44] <molly> I'm serious
  146. # [07:45] <molly> that's why the red-mark idea is so brilliant
  147. # [07:45] <molly> what do you think Hixie?
  148. # [07:45] <molly> I thought that was awesome, and I want to work with that
  149. # [07:46] <Hixie> which idea? marking the big known issues in the draft?
  150. # [07:46] <othermaciej> Lachy: I just thought of a great new name!
  151. # [07:46] * othermaciej ducks
  152. # [07:46] <molly> Hixie: yes, please
  153. # [07:47] <molly> othermaciej: for what
  154. # [07:47] <molly> and you best duck for Lachy, he's really tall. I've met him!
  155. # [07:47] <Lachy> othermaciej, is it goAndGetMeStuff() and goAndGetMeAllStuff()?
  156. # [07:47] <molly> ;-)
  157. # [07:47] <karlUshi> for the selectors API doc
  158. # [07:47] <othermaciej> Molly: the Selectors API naming debate has been a watershed for bike sheds
  159. # [07:47] <karlUshi> sudoGoAndGetMeStuff() ?
  160. # [07:47] <othermaciej> Lachy: wow, those are even better
  161. # [07:48] <Hixie> molly: that's already done
  162. # [07:49] <molly> So Hixie, All - if we take those one by one, can we do a good, easy explanation for each "hot topic"?
  163. # [07:49] <molly> also, I need the best description of WHY HTML 5 is necessary. I have a great quote from Lachy, and another from Dean Edwards
  164. # [07:49] <Lachy> what quote from me?
  165. # [07:49] <molly> but, not completely convincing to the complacent world at large
  166. # [07:50] <molly> damn, he would ask, hang on ;-)
  167. # [07:50] <hober> I liked Hixie's explanation along the lines of "very long-term survival of our cultural output"
  168. # [07:50] <othermaciej> if we've upgraded the web to 2.0, we should really bump the version number of the standards too
  169. # [07:50] <molly> hober, I love that too, but it isn't explicit. It's the way I might describe something and people call me weird when I do it
  170. # [07:51] <Hixie> molly: http://blog.whatwg.org/faq covers most of those issues, you might want to crib from there
  171. # [07:51] <molly> they just call Hixie really smart when he does it :P
  172. # [07:51] <Hixie> people generally call me an asshole, actually :-P
  173. # [07:51] <molly> that's because they haven't met you
  174. # [07:51] <othermaciej> a little from column A, a little from column B
  175. # [07:52] <molly> lol!
  176. # [07:52] <Hixie> one big reason for html5 is that the languages that the web are built are are showing their age, and are facing competition from proprietary technologies like flash and silverlight
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  179. # [07:53] <molly> I think we need to distill it in real ways like "this is why you would use this element and how"
  180. # [07:53] <molly> and also tell that to browser implementors as well as tools folks
  181. # [07:53] <Hixie> we need to bring the web's open, standard, vendor-neutral technologies up to the state of the art if we are to keep the web's openness safe from vendor lockin
  182. # [07:53] <molly> right now, I think people are just sort of like, okay, let's implement css 2.1
  183. # [07:53] <molly> :: bangs head on desk ::
  184. # [07:53] <molly> I mean, look at iPhone
  185. # [07:53] <othermaciej> what about it?
  186. # [07:54] <molly> beautiful device
  187. # [07:54] <othermaciej> I think it has a pretty decent implementation of css 2.1
  188. # [07:54] <molly> how about just making sure it also implements handheld css
  189. # [07:54] <karlUshi> http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/08/the-iphone-is-i.html
  190. # [07:54] <karlUshi> "The IPhone Is Internet Explorer 4 All Over Again"
  191. # [07:54] <othermaciej> we don't claim to be the handheld media type because in the cases where it makes a difference, that leads to a worse experience for the user
  192. # [07:55] <karlUshi> http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/08/iphone_developer_guidelines_pr.html
  193. # [07:55] <molly> i actually would challenge that. I just saw an "iPhone enhanced" experience which meant really using webcore
  194. # [07:55] <karlUshi> "iPhone Developer Guidelines Promote One Web, Open Standards"
  195. # [07:56] <karlUshi> molly: this is the point of the first article
  196. # [07:56] <molly> i'm so cool with awesome stuff. I mean, blow my mind. Always
  197. # [07:56] <molly> BUT
  198. # [07:56] <karlUshi> to have this iPhone enhanced
  199. # [07:56] <molly> do it with the baseline there
  200. # [07:56] <molly> My brother Linus always told me I was going to end up the Ralph Nader of the Web
  201. # [07:56] <othermaciej> we encourage standards-based design first and foremost
  202. # [07:56] <molly> that was a decade ago
  203. # [07:56] <molly> sigh.
  204. # [07:57] <molly> wait, you guys don't get it
  205. # [07:57] <molly> I have nothing against WHAT WG
  206. # [07:57] <molly> never have!
  207. # [07:57] <karlUshi> "The first design rules for web applications on iPhone are to stick with web standards and follow established web design practices." -- http://developer.apple.com/iphone/designingcontent.html
  208. # [07:57] <molly> I love the entire idea and exercise
  209. # [07:57] <othermaciej> iphone-optimized content generally works in other browsers
  210. # [07:57] <molly> I'm just not fucking certain the W3C actually HELPS YOU
  211. # [07:57] <othermaciej> there are sadly some sites that lock non-iphone browsers out of the iphone version
  212. # [07:57] <molly> or vice versa
  213. # [07:57] <karlUshi> ohoh
  214. # [07:57] <karlUshi> :)))
  215. # [07:58] <molly> what, patents?
  216. # [07:58] <karlUshi> schizophrenia ahead
  217. # [07:58] <molly> why do you say that KarlUshi?
  218. # [07:59] <karlUshi> because many people here are part of the two :)
  219. # [07:59] <molly> so what
  220. # [07:59] <molly> one could say I am, sorta
  221. # [07:59] <karlUshi> [14:58] <molly> I'm just not fucking certain the W3C actually HELPS YOU
  222. # [07:59] <karlUshi> :)
  223. # [07:59] <molly> KarlUshi, that's fair
  224. # [07:59] <molly> I can't argue that at all, and I won't
  225. # [08:00] <molly> I wish it could though.
  226. # [08:00] <molly> I always, perhaps innocently
  227. # [08:00] <molly> looked at the W3C as the wisdom
  228. # [08:00] <karlUshi> for me it's like your left brain saying "be careful, your right brain will not help you"
  229. # [08:00] <karlUshi> eeeek
  230. # [08:00] <molly> my brain isn't that clearly split. It's kinda mixed ;-)
  231. # [08:00] <karlUshi> wisdom?
  232. # [08:01] <molly> I've been in IT since 1988 and the web since 1992.5. Weird
  233. # [08:01] <karlUshi> why people create always religion of organizations :) it is a lot more basic than that.
  234. # [08:01] <molly> I like to think maybe my longevity
  235. # [08:01] <molly> has given me *some*
  236. # [08:01] <molly> maybe not a lot
  237. # [08:01] <molly> but *some* wisdom? Anyone?
  238. # [08:01] <othermaciej> given that the w3c wanted to have an effort to make a new official version of HTML, it seems to make sense to work together
  239. # [08:01] <molly> Help me out here.
  240. # [08:01] <othermaciej> benefits of working with w3c:
  241. # [08:01] <karlUshi> othermaciej: yes. That's the point.
  242. # [08:01] <othermaciej> - clear patent policy
  243. # [08:02] <othermaciej> - brand value of having the premier web standards body support the spec
  244. # [08:02] <othermaciej> - potential for companies like Microsoft to participate
  245. # [08:02] <othermaciej> - avoidance of needlessly fragmenting the marketplace
  246. # [08:03] <karlUshi> (wider reviews by wider audience)
  247. # [08:03] <molly> I think we have our main headers for our first WHY HTML5 article for the public ;-)
  248. # [08:03] <molly> seriously, that's awesome
  249. # [08:03] <molly> broadly
  250. # [08:04] <molly> then there are specifics
  251. # [08:04] <molly> the accessibility issue, Ruby? That's cool but how many people have really adopted XHTML 1.1 to support RUBY? c'mon.
  252. # [08:04] <Hixie> the only two reasons we considered going to the w3c was to get the pateny policy easily and to get microsoft on board (which was actually the same thing, they wanted whatwg to have a patent policy)
  253. # [08:04] <Hixie> the w3c brand actually didn't matter at all
  254. # [08:05] <molly> I know. I speak to Chris a lot due to my work at MS (which I have to say is surprisingly awesome)
  255. # [08:05] <molly> but he is clearly upset about IP
  256. # [08:05] <molly> I have opposed him as WG co-lead anyway
  257. # [08:05] <molly> long ago and far away
  258. # [08:05] * karlUshi is smiling at illusions
  259. # [08:05] <molly> he's my friend, and my colleague, and certainly smart enough and more knowledgeable than most of us here
  260. # [08:06] <molly> but WTF?
  261. # [08:06] <molly> am I nuts (okay, yes, I am but.)
  262. # [08:07] <karlUshi> you are just molly (c)
  263. # [08:07] <othermaciej> in its current incomplete state I would summarize the benefits as:
  264. # [08:07] <othermaciej> - better cross-browser compatibility (since things are more explicitly defined)
  265. # [08:07] <othermaciej> - better support for the semantics of modern web documents like weblogs and wikis
  266. # [08:08] <othermaciej> - better support for rich web applications
  267. # [08:08] <othermaciej> - better built-in support for non-text media
  268. # [08:09] <othermaciej> of course that kind of shows my personal biases of what I care about
  269. # [08:09] <othermaciej> others with different priorities might give a different summary
  270. # [08:09] <molly> anyone ever have a great experience where everything slows down and there's a great soundtrack? And everything you ever dreamed of, well, it's right there
  271. # [08:10] <othermaciej> that seems inappropriate to discuss on a family channel
  272. # [08:10] <molly> tangent:
  273. # [08:10] <molly> I'm collecting stats
  274. # [08:10] <molly> the W3C staff notes 52 males to 15 females
  275. # [08:10] <molly> WHAT WG?
  276. # [08:10] <molly> any stats or assumed stats?
  277. # [08:11] <othermaciej> it doesn't have any staff
  278. # [08:11] <Hixie> there's no WHATWG staff
  279. # [08:11] <molly> no the W3C
  280. # [08:11] <Hixie> so we have a perfect balance of male and female
  281. # [08:11] <othermaciej> so 0 to 0
  282. # [08:11] <molly> who they pay. I also want to collect info as to WGs and alternative groups such as WHAT WG and microformats.org
  283. # [08:11] <molly> etc.
  284. # [08:12] <molly> Hixie, what a spin, wheeeee......
  285. # [08:12] <molly> I love that!
  286. # [08:12] <molly> How'd he do that guys?
  287. # [08:13] <molly> honestly, how many girls stop by here
  288. # [08:13] <molly> day to day
  289. # [08:13] <Hixie> no idea
  290. # [08:13] <molly> include me, even if I'm no longer a girl
  291. # [08:13] <molly> okay, who PARTICIPATE
  292. # [08:13] * Hixie doesn't actually know the genders of most of the people here to be honest
  293. # [08:13] <molly> Hixie, that's okay. I think you scare most people anyway.
  294. # [08:14] <karlUshi> molly: we don't ask for genders when people participate in the groups
  295. # [08:14] <othermaciej> there's really no way to estimate, except to look at the mailing list and guess based on name
  296. # [08:14] <Hixie> i actively try to not know the affiliations and personal backgrounds of most contributors, as i don't think it affects the value of their input
  297. # [08:14] <molly> okay, just doing my stats homework
  298. # [08:14] <molly> I will say just that
  299. # [08:14] <karlUshi> as the staff contact of the HTML WG and approving all applications, I have not counted but that would mean I know all type of names
  300. # [08:14] <molly> I wasn't trying to be gender aggressive, I really prefer men anyway
  301. # [08:14] <karlUshi> the most common example is
  302. # [08:14] <molly> it's just that I was asked to give some stats
  303. # [08:14] <karlUshi> anne
  304. # [08:14] <karlUshi> girl or boy ;)
  305. # [08:15] <karlUshi> but molly you can try to guess here
  306. # [08:15] <karlUshi> v
  307. # [08:15] <karlUshi> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1
  308. # [08:15] <molly> oh well, I met Anne when he still has spots. They cleared up last time I saw him though. He's clearly male. And a beautiful brilliant boy at that
  309. # [08:15] <molly> don't mistake me for someone who just shows up to cause trouble
  310. # [08:16] <molly> I really only show up
  311. # [08:16] <molly> to cause trouble ;-)
  312. # [08:16] <molly> But I really do show up ;-)
  313. # [08:18] <molly> I mean, clearly
  314. # [08:18] <karlUshi> molly: and if you want a distribution by country, which is far to be complete
  315. # [08:18] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  316. # [08:18] <karlUshi> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation
  317. # [08:18] <Lachy> molly, I don't understand why it matters what the gender stats are
  318. # [08:18] <molly> I'm sure you don't
  319. # [08:19] <molly> sorry, I didn't start this
  320. # [08:19] <karlUshi> :)
  321. # [08:19] <molly> I was asked
  322. # [08:19] <molly> but honestly guys
  323. # [08:19] <molly> think about it
  324. # [08:19] <molly> you can say "no gender bias" all you want
  325. # [08:19] <molly> give me 10 women active
  326. # [08:19] <Hixie> there's clearly a gender bias
  327. # [08:19] <molly> and I'll shut the fuck up
  328. # [08:19] <Hixie> it's across the entire tech industry
  329. # [08:19] <molly> actually, I'll STFU anyway
  330. # [08:19] <molly> yes, that's my point. I'm NOT drawing you guys out.
  331. # [08:20] <molly> :X
  332. # [08:20] * Hixie participates in FIRST high school programmes to encourage gender-balance tech participation
  333. # [08:20] <molly> please don't get defensive
  334. # [08:20] <Hixie> (amongst other things)
  335. # [08:20] <Hixie> just sayin' :-)
  336. # [08:20] <Hixie> i encourage everyone to do that kind of stuff
  337. # [08:20] <Hixie> it's hella fun
  338. # [08:20] <molly> so my job sometimes means saying "look at this, it's Fugly"
  339. # [08:20] <karlUshi> molly: I think that some issues are difficult to understand when people do not live them. Gender, racial, Culture, etc
  340. # [08:20] <molly> right? Yes.
  341. # [08:20] <molly> Me too.
  342. # [08:20] <othermaciej> given the gender composition of the tech industry in general, of standards groups in particular, there's probably significantly more men actively involved than women
  343. # [08:20] <molly> I agree Karl
  344. # [08:21] <molly> I think I *might* know something about this
  345. # [08:21] <molly> maybe not that much
  346. # [08:21] <molly> but a little?
  347. # [08:21] <othermaciej> there have been at least some number of people with female-sounding names that I don't spefically know to be male who have posted on public-html
  348. # [08:21] <karlUshi> yep othermaciej
  349. # [08:21] <molly> it's not about HTML5
  350. # [08:22] <molly> as Hixie mentioned, it's industry wide, world wide in fact
  351. # [08:22] <molly> but don't you think having some girls around is good?
  352. # [08:22] <molly> I mean really!
  353. # [08:23] * karlUshi agrees
  354. # [08:23] <molly> we smell good
  355. # [08:24] <molly> and bring food.
  356. # [08:24] <othermaciej> Molly: we're just doing our best to give you the info you asked for -- there aren't good stats on this, so all we can do is extrapolate
  357. # [08:24] <karlUshi> molly: not all girls smell good, but the same goes with guys ;)
  358. # [08:25] <molly> I know, but I also felt some defensiveness. I think mostly you're a lot of guys who are really smart and don't have any idea why more women are involved with HTML5 and tech in general
  359. # [08:25] <molly> but would welcome them
  360. # [08:25] <molly> particularly if they smelled good and brought food.
  361. # [08:25] <molly> LOL Karl
  362. # [08:25] <molly> Don't want to ask who YOU've been hanging with!
  363. # [08:25] <karlUshi> :D
  364. # [08:25] <othermaciej> I don't tend to have that particular thought
  365. # [08:25] <othermaciej> I try to treat people as people
  366. # [08:26] <karlUshi> I'm a cow
  367. # [08:26] <Hixie> yeah like i said, i don't care what gender contributors have
  368. # [08:26] <molly> I'm proud of all of you for that
  369. # [08:26] <molly> maybe I'm just a different generation
  370. # [08:26] <molly> that still feels it needs to provide good pathways
  371. # [08:26] <molly> etc. etc.
  372. # [08:26] <othermaciej> fwiw the engineering team that reports to me has an unusually high proportion of women for a software engineering team, and I have encouraged all of them to participate more in web standards, but I am not going to force anybody to post
  373. # [08:27] <molly> i think the workforce is changing
  374. # [08:27] <othermaciej> (40%)
  375. # [08:27] <molly> it's just at the upper layers - speakers, spec writers, etc.
  376. # [08:27] <Lachy> I just did a quick skim of the HTMLWG members and counted about 20 names that could possibly be female, and I'm probably wrong about 15 of them :-)\
  377. # [08:27] <molly> hahaha
  378. # [08:27] <molly> I love you Lachlan
  379. # [08:27] <Hixie> yeah google as a company has a much higher than average female:male engineer ratio
  380. # [08:27] <molly> that's great.
  381. # [08:27] <Hixie> and does a lot to encourage that as an industry trend
  382. # [08:27] <Hixie> (like sponsor FIRST)
  383. # [08:28] <karlUshi> interesting
  384. # [08:28] <Lachy> there were about 200 names that were complete foreign and ambiguous though, so my count isn't at all accurate
  385. # [08:28] <Hixie> the problem mostly stems from the education sector, though, i think
  386. # [08:28] <othermaciej> I'm lucky enough that if I told my team that what I like best about them is that they bring food and smell good, they would probably laugh at me rather thangetting angry
  387. # [08:28] <karlUshi> we often talk about female:male engineer ratio, but never about female:male comm ratio, or female:male admin ratio
  388. # [08:28] <molly> this is why I'm doing the train the trainer program
  389. # [08:28] <molly> it's not all about women either
  390. # [08:29] <molly> I mean how many black americans? Hispanics? Etc.
  391. # [08:29] <karlUshi> how many cows? !!!!
  392. # [08:29] <molly> the IT world is still one based on class
  393. # [08:29] <molly> Karl, you still can't let go of the cow?
  394. # [08:29] <molly> I mean, isn't this a zen thing
  395. # [08:29] <karlUshi> ;) that's my blood
  396. # [08:29] <molly> "I let go of the cow"
  397. # [08:30] <othermaciej> I think large parts of the IT business world are pretty egalitarian in attitude -- most engineering types don't care too much who's doing the work if they can code
  398. # [08:31] <othermaciej> although there are clearly pockets of bad attitude and inappropriate behavior
  399. # [08:31] <karlUshi> http://www.normandieweb.org/nature/vache/images/JMLvache01.jpg
  400. # [08:31] <othermaciej> I would say the biggest issue is the education pipeline
  401. # [08:31] <molly> I am totally the wrong person to talk about women in the IT world. My best mentors have been men, men have helped me all my life. I love men. I trust them more than women.
  402. # [08:32] <othermaciej> engineering is also an occupation that's unusually easy to enter as a self-taught practitioner; but very few women choose that path
  403. # [08:32] <karlUshi> molly: interesting I had almost the same exact opposite thing
  404. # [08:32] <molly> I guess we can call it meritocracy
  405. # [08:32] <karlUshi> prior to W3C, all my boss have been... women, even in Astrophysics Research
  406. # [08:32] <molly> if you earn it
  407. # [08:32] <molly> you get the respect. That's been my sense
  408. # [08:32] <molly> I've only been insulted by trolls. True colleagues have disagreed, but always respected
  409. # [08:33] <molly> that makes me feel very good as a person
  410. # [08:33] <molly> I always have men as bosses
  411. # [08:33] <molly> except my mother
  412. # [08:33] <molly> lol
  413. # [08:33] <molly> gay men a lot, too
  414. # [08:33] <molly> wonder why
  415. # [08:33] <molly> not that it matters
  416. # [08:34] <molly> weren't we talking about gender indifference?
  417. # [08:34] <molly> I wish it were that way, young men
  418. # [08:34] <molly> but it's not, not quite
  419. # [08:34] <molly> but you guys are paving the cowpaths
  420. # [08:34] <molly> :: cough cough :
  421. # [08:34] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-24-6-210-182.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  422. # [08:35] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-24-6-210-182.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  423. # [08:38] <Hixie> ok so
  424. # [08:38] <Hixie> i have a few minutes to work on whatwg stuff before bed time
  425. # [08:39] <molly> Hixie: Peter from WSG, with 4k members, wants to help organize a world-wide F2F
  426. # [08:39] <molly> I'd like to work on that
  427. # [08:39] <Hixie> isn't that what we're doing in november
  428. # [08:39] <molly> well, there's the Technical Plenary and we talked about that
  429. # [08:39] <molly> but nothing was confirmed that I know of
  430. # [08:39] <Lachy> how would a world wide F2F work?
  431. # [08:40] <molly> to do some worldwide F2F
  432. # [08:40] <molly> Lachy, all ideas welcome
  433. # [08:40] <molly> we need several core cities
  434. # [08:40] <Lachy> meet in various locations around the world and hook up via satellite and IRC
  435. # [08:40] <molly> where people can gather
  436. # [08:40] <molly> yep
  437. # [08:40] <Hixie> just for socialising? or?
  438. # [08:40] <molly> we have to figure out the time/space continuum but I'm sure we can handle that
  439. # [08:41] <molly> Hixie, you mentioned that it's suffering to work on specs F2F
  440. # [08:41] <molly> and I agreed
  441. # [08:41] * Hixie doesn't think this is something he can really do in the next hour or so :-)
  442. # [08:41] <karlUshi> world-wide F2F on How To Make Love. Great!
  443. # [08:41] <molly> so I think it shouldn't be actual spec work but discussion around key points
  444. # [08:41] <Hixie> molly: well, it's hard to ahve meetings of any productive kind that are more than about 3 people
  445. # [08:41] <Hixie> molly: but social gathering do help oil the wheels, as it were
  446. # [08:41] <Hixie> i don't know what i can do about it myself though
  447. # [08:41] <molly> Yes, Ian, I know, as I've witnessed
  448. # [08:42] <molly> with you there ;-)
  449. # [08:42] <molly> so my point is the F2F brings the good connections
  450. # [08:42] <molly> and we should discuss key points
  451. # [08:42] <molly> but we should bring those back to discussion
  452. # [08:42] <molly> not make it an actual spec meeting
  453. # [08:42] <Lachy> hmm. a bar camp style meeting would probably work
  454. # [08:43] <molly> I think so
  455. # [08:43] <molly> but more focused
  456. # [08:43] <molly> anyway, that's my thought
  457. # [08:44] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
  458. # [08:44] <Hixie> well i suggest we try that and see what the one-location meeting in november works out like first, but yes
  459. # [08:44] <Hixie> it'd be great if we got an agenda for that meeting soon though
  460. # [08:44] <molly> well, we did a one location gig in Paris
  461. # [08:44] <molly> you weren't there, but we had quite a turnout with Anne and Henri, etc
  462. # [08:45] <Lachy> my major concern with with idea is the problem of getting 400+ people meeting up simultaneously around the world isn't easy
  463. # [08:45] <molly> well, the agenda has to come out of hot topics, which I need some help on
  464. # [08:45] <molly> I can write the stuff
  465. # [08:45] <molly> I need someone to help me analyze it
  466. # [08:45] <molly> Lachy, we aim for the most
  467. # [08:45] <molly> and people who are truly motivated
  468. # [08:45] <othermaciej> I think doing it barcamp/unconference style reduces the need for a formal agenda
  469. # [08:45] <molly> well, those are your winners
  470. # [08:46] <othermaciej> though suggestions of possible topics can be helpful
  471. # [08:46] <molly> how would you see it maciej? Because that format is very creative and popular
  472. # [08:46] <molly> I think we can come up with a few hot topics here :D
  473. # [08:46] <molly> I'm not so worried about that lol
  474. # [08:46] * Lachy is giong to a BarCamp next weekend
  475. # [08:47] <Hixie> by "agenda" i meant a decision from DanC about whether november's meeting would be an unconference or not
  476. # [08:47] <hober> I think the hot topics would naturally bubble to the forefront in an unconference-style gathering
  477. # [08:47] <molly> Hixie, wow. I didn't think of it like that
  478. # [08:47] <molly> I thought they'd do that W3C style. Do you want to advocate for a barcamp style?
  479. # [08:47] <molly> I'd work with you
  480. # [08:47] <molly> I mean, 400 some odd members
  481. # [08:48] <molly> NOT your average Working Group
  482. # [08:48] <Hixie> i asked for us to do that in response to the last meeting we had (last week)
  483. # [08:48] <molly> hey that's awesome
  484. # [08:48] <Hixie> danc said he's noodle on it or something
  485. # [08:48] <molly> How did it go over?
  486. # [08:48] <molly> ok
  487. # [08:48] <molly> what about Chris?
  488. # [08:48] <molly> others?
  489. # [08:49] <Hixie> i have not heard anything from chris
  490. # [08:49] <Hixie> response from others has been mostly positive from what i hear but Dan's the one who has to decide
  491. # [08:49] <molly> wow, okay
  492. # [08:49] <molly> thanks, that was good to know
  493. # [08:49] <karlUshi> :)
  494. # [08:49] <molly> hey, I'm going to bed you guys. Thanks for a great chat as always. More discussion tomorrow I hope.
  495. # [08:50] <molly> ttys
  496. # [08:50] * Quits: molly (n=mollyhol@ip70-171-192-31.tc.ph.cox.net) ("Quitting!")
  497. # [08:52] <Hixie> you know given how many complaints there were about lack of transparency about the issues i had, there has been remarkably little response to the e-mail i sent
  498. # [08:52] <Hixie> about the issues list
  499. # [08:53] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  500. # [08:54] <Lachy> the complaints about the lack of transparency always confused me, since the whatwg and htmlwg have been the most open and transparent groups compared with many others
  501. # [08:54] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-207-210.pool.emnet.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  502. # [08:55] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, well, the issues list was closed, which was a valid complaint. but it is no longer!
  503. # [08:57] <hober> The repeated transparency calls have really given me a strong impression of bureaucray trolling (http://tantek.pbwiki.com/TrollTaxonomy#Bureaucraytroll)
  504. # [08:58] <Lachy> well, the text box placeholder email I sent seemed to get a fairly positive response so far. maybe it would help to send a summary email like that for other issues shortly before you start addressing them
  505. # [08:59] <Hixie> Lachy: that wouldn't really fit my working model
  506. # [08:59] <Hixie> which is to select an e-mail to reply to, and to fix the spec as i'm replying to it
  507. # [08:59] <Lachy> hmm. yeah
  508. # [08:59] <Lachy> I like your model
  509. # [09:00] <Lachy> I'm just trying to think of a way to address people's concerns, even though I actually disagree with them
  510. # [09:02] <Hixie> so... offline web apps, huh
  511. # [09:10] <Hixie> * User goes to a page, then goes offline and uses it, then goes back
  512. # [09:10] <Hixie> online and uses it. The page and its subresources are always at
  513. # [09:10] <Hixie> their most up-to-date. Interactions with the page while offline are
  514. # [09:10] <Hixie> synced to the server when going online.
  515. # [09:12] <Lachy> which folder in your issues list contains the relevenat discussions?
  516. # [09:12] <Hixie> filesystem
  517. # [09:28] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-247-173.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  518. # [09:35] <Hixie> hey, i complained, and now people are posting about it
  519. # [09:35] <Hixie> go figure
  520. # [09:36] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
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  523. # [09:45] <Lachy> which DOM3 core features are required that IE7 doesn't support?
  524. # [09:45] <Lachy> for the issues page
  525. # [09:48] <Lachy> Hixie, couldn't you use innerHTML instead of textContent?
  526. # [09:50] <Hixie> not unless i wanted to get pwned
  527. # [09:50] <Lachy> ?
  528. # [09:50] <Hixie> that would open me to XSS bugs
  529. # [09:50] <Hixie> i could use innerText, maybe, but that isn't compliant
  530. # [09:51] <Hixie> and frankly, i don't care if it doesn't work in IE7
  531. # [09:51] <Hixie> that's IE7's prblem
  532. # [09:51] <Lachy> I didn't know there were security issues with innerHTML
  533. # [09:51] <Hixie> innerHTML parses HTML
  534. # [09:51] <Lachy> oh, so it would parse HTML in the emails
  535. # [09:51] <Hixie> yup
  536. # [09:52] <Hixie> for instance
  537. # [09:52] <Lachy> then use .innerHTML = escape(email); where escape is a function that converts < to &lt;, & and &amp;, etc.
  538. # [09:52] <annevk> .firstChild.data ?
  539. # [09:52] <Lachy> that would work too
  540. # [09:53] <Hixie> .firstChild.data wouldn't blow away the second text node, other elements, etc
  541. # [09:53] <Hixie> what's wrong with textContent?
  542. # [09:53] <Hixie> it's standards compliant and exactly what i want
  543. # [09:53] <Lachy> just that IE users are complaining
  544. # [09:53] <Hixie> that's their problem
  545. # [09:53] <Hixie> they need a better browser
  546. # [09:53] <annevk> x.innerHTML = "foo"; .x.firstChild.data = bar
  547. # [09:54] <annevk> not very nice though
  548. # [09:54] <Hixie> i don't want to instantiate an HTML parser just to remove nodes, that's a performance nightmare
  549. # [09:54] <Hixie> this is slow enough as it is
  550. # [09:55] * Quits: yod (n=ot@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net) ("Leaving")
  551. # [10:03] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-213-199.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  552. # [10:07] * annevk wonders how closely RB read the XML specification...
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  554. # [10:15] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  555. # [10:18] * annevk wonders why hsivonen didn't opt for the forms TF
  556. # [10:33] * Joins: Oeighty (n=oxygen80@ip-58-28-137-13.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz)
  557. # [10:34] <annevk> the bugzilla bugs mentioned earlier are funny
  558. # [10:35] <Hixie> btw if anyone has an urge to write their own frontend to the WHATWG issues thingy, the API is described here: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/API
  559. # [10:35] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  560. # [10:38] <Hixie> annevk: feel free to take over on those bugs, i'm leaving it up to the gecko devs at this point
  561. # [10:38] <Hixie> no point arguing back and forth
  562. # [10:39] <annevk> I'm tempted to mark the one he filed INVALID, but since he's reporter he can reopen I believe so it's kind of pointless to do so probably
  563. # [10:39] <annevk> Especially since he his this weird untrackable train of thought on how things are done in the real world and specified in HTML4...
  564. # [10:42] <Hixie> as i understand it basically what he proposes is that usemap="" on <input type=image> only be used for giving tooltips for the <input>, but i don't understand why that would be useful for accessibility, and i don't see any evidence that authors are looking for that
  565. # [10:42] <Hixie> (at least not in numbers that would support this feature in view of hte Baby Steps principle)
  566. # [10:43] <annevk> I suppose they would also become focusable regions
  567. # [10:43] <Hixie> no because he's saying that there'd be no href="" on them
  568. # [10:43] <Hixie> so they'd all be image-map-dead areas
  569. # [10:43] <Hixie> (he's arguing that the clicks on those areas should go through to the <input> element)
  570. # [10:43] <Hixie> (as opposed to being caught by the <area> as you might otherwise expect in dead <area>s)
  571. # [10:44] <annevk> in that case it seems pretty pointless
  572. # [10:45] <annevk> actually, he mentioned yesterday that he would want the <area id> to be submitted as well or something
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  575. # [10:48] <zcorpan_> http://blog.whatwg.org/issues
  576. # [10:49] <annevk> maybe update it to reference the API in case people want to hack their own tracker that works in IE?
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  579. # [10:58] <Hixie> thanks for fixing my typo :-)
  580. # [10:58] <Hixie> right, bed time
  581. # [10:58] <Hixie> nn
  582. # [10:59] <annevk> g'night
  583. # [11:02] <Hixie> (he reopened the bug for the 2nd time btw)
  584. # [11:02] <annevk> right
  585. # [11:03] * annevk gives up
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  587. # [11:06] <mgdm> This is great... by tracking the development of new Web stuff, I can learn about things I never new existed... http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/
  588. # [11:08] <zcorpan_> Lachy: s#XHTML 1.0#XHTML 1.0 as text/html# in the proposed design principles example
  589. # [11:08] <Lachy> zcorpan_, yes
  590. # [11:09] <annevk> you can use s# too? interesting
  591. # [11:09] <Lachy> I assumed he meant s/.../.../ though I'm not sure how one would make such a typo
  592. # [11:10] <annevk> no, he used a / in the replacement, so using # makes some sense if it's allowed
  593. # [11:10] <zcorpan_> in perl, you can use almost any punctation character
  594. # [11:10] <annevk> ah yeah, I remember something like that from my Perl book
  595. # [11:11] <zcorpan_> s!...!...! works too for instance
  596. # [11:11] * annevk made a few hello world scripts once
  597. # [11:11] * annevk then learned Python
  598. # [11:13] <Lachy> hmm. I don't think it's worth responding to Rob in bugzilla anymore. There doesn't seem to be anything that can be said, which would help.
  599. # [11:16] <Lachy> wow, this is contradictory: "Safari and IE both support submission of forms with <input type=image usemap=#IDREF >, where IDREF is the name of a MAP element. This is exactly the behavior I'm proposing for Gecko."
  600. # [11:16] <Lachy> So he wants to implement <area> the same way IE and Safari do (which is not at all), but at the same time object to removing support for it.
  601. # [11:19] <annevk> IE is case-insensitive for <label for> too
  602. # [11:19] <annevk> probably Unicode case-insensitive
  603. # [11:19] <annevk> I suspect it might do that for all ID values
  604. # [11:20] <Lachy> I don't think IE implements case sensitivity correctly according to Unicode
  605. # [11:20] <annevk> "In keeping with the spirit of the the recommendation" lol
  606. # [11:21] <annevk> Lachy, that would make sense; it's hardly conforming to anything :)
  607. # [11:21] <annevk> (much like any other browser for that matter, in case someone takes offense at the above)
  608. # [11:21] <Lachy> I find it amusing how he asks us to cite the relevant part of the specifcation to support our argument, but he's just making up the implementation requirements as he goes
  609. # [11:22] <Lachy> I did some testing for Unicode case folding recently
  610. # [11:24] * Lachy is looking for the test cases he made
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  614. # [11:32] <Lachy> found them. http://lachy.id.au/dev/unicode/test/case-folding (note: may take a while to load)
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  617. # [11:43] <zcorpan_> hmmm. we're not happy with implementing all supported interfaces on Document objects
  618. # [11:44] <zcorpan_> we'd rather move members that are useful for all types of documents to the Document interface than to implement HTMLDocument on all documents
  619. # [11:44] <zcorpan_> like cookie and getElementsByClassName
  620. # [11:46] <zcorpan_> perhaps also move getElementsByClassName from HTMLElement to Element
  621. # [11:50] <annevk> that certainly makes sense
  622. # [11:50] <annevk> I still think it makes sense for all documents to implement HTMLDocument for the compound document scenario
  623. # [11:51] <zcorpan_> why?
  624. # [11:52] <annevk> let me put it differently, how to decide which interfaces to implement?
  625. # [11:53] <zcorpan_> yeah, that's also an issue. deciding on the root element's namespace makes sense to me
  626. # [11:53] <annevk> that's to late
  627. # [11:53] <zcorpan_> it's what opera does, no? :)
  628. # [11:53] <annevk> I don't think so
  629. # [11:54] <annevk> I think we do it based on MIME type which is clearly not desirable
  630. # [11:54] <zcorpan_> no, that's what firefox does
  631. # [11:54] <zcorpan_> we decide on root namespace
  632. # [11:54] <annevk> sure?
  633. # [11:54] <zcorpan_> last time i checked
  634. # [11:55] <annevk> how does that work with createDocument() and such?
  635. # [11:55] * annevk ponders
  636. # [11:55] <zcorpan_> dunno
  637. # [11:55] <zcorpan_> not sure what happens when you replace the root element either
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  639. # [12:34] <Lachy> IMHO, deciding based upon the namespace is the most logical option.
  640. # [12:40] <zcorpan_> Lachy: what happens when you replace the root element?
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  643. # [13:07] <Lachy> zcorpan_, it's not possible to replace the root element, since document.documentElement is read only. You'd have to create a new document.
  644. # [13:08] <zcorpan_> hmm
  645. # [13:09] <Lachy> I could be wrong, since I haven't tested it. I'm just going by what the DOM spec said
  646. # [13:10] <zcorpan_> iirc browsers allow it, but that might be a bug then
  647. # [13:10] <Lachy> do you have a test case?
  648. # [13:11] <zcorpan_> btw, documentElement being readonly doesn't imply that you can't remove it
  649. # [13:11] <zcorpan_> it just means that you can't do document.documentElement = somethingelse
  650. # [13:11] <Lachy> how else is it possible to change the root element?
  651. # [13:12] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cscript%3Ewindow.onload%3Dfunction%28%29%7Bdocument.removeChild%28document.firstChild%29%7D%3C/script%3E
  652. # [13:12] <zcorpan_> with methods on the document
  653. # [13:15] <Lachy> ok
  654. # [13:16] <Lachy> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cscript%3E%0Awindow.onload%3Dfunction%28%29%20%7B%0A%20%20document.removeChild%28document.firstChild%29%3B%0A%20%20document.appendChild%28document.createElementNS%28%22http%3A//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%2C%20%22svg%22%29%29%3B%0A%20%20w%28document.documentElement%29%0A%7D%0A%3C/script%3E
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  663. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> Lachy: w(document) says [HTMLDocument] in opera
  664. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> also when i try the same with an xml document. so we don't change the interface of the document in response to changes to the dom
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  666. # [14:43] <zcorpan_> if the insertion mode is "after body"
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  668. # [14:44] <zcorpan_> A character token that is one of one of U+0009 CHARACTER TABULATION, U+000A LINE FEED (LF), U+000B LINE TABULATION, U+000C FORM FEED (FF), or U+0020 SPACE
  669. # [14:44] <zcorpan_> Process the token as it would be processed if the insertion mode was "in body".
  670. # [14:44] <zcorpan_> would the character then be appended to the body element?
  671. # [14:45] <zcorpan_> since the current node is the body element
  672. # [14:46] <zcorpan_> e.g. "<body></body> </html>" is parsed as if it were "<body> </body></html>"
  673. # [14:50] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  674. # [14:51] <zcorpan_> correct?
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  678. # [15:56] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  679. # [15:58] <Philip`> SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted string
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  683. # [16:32] <zcorpan_> hmm. wonder if, when getting innerHTML in html, an element is in the html namespace but has a prefix, the prefix should be dropped
  684. # [16:32] <zcorpan_> so that it can be parsed into the same element again with the html parser
  685. # [16:33] <zcorpan_> though innerHTML in html wasn't designed to handle such cases anyway
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  687. # [16:34] <met_> http://www.infoq.com/news/2007/08/hdflash
  688. # [16:34] <met_> I think it's the same format Apple want for <video> in Safari
  689. # [16:35] <Whiskey_M> zcorpan: would that have the knock on effect that when in an XHTML namespace it will pull the innerXML ?
  690. # [16:35] <zcorpan_> Whiskey_M: i don't understand the question
  691. # [16:36] <zcorpan_> what is innerXML?
  692. # [16:37] <Whiskey_M> I think I may have my knickers / DOMs in a twist (between the .net, asp and JS document models and the different calls for each I'm not suprised though)
  693. # [16:41] <zcorpan_> i mean, if you have an element with the following properties: prefix is "x", localName is "input", namespaceURI is "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", and it is part of an html document. what should that element's parent node's innerHTML attribute return on getting?
  694. # [16:41] <zcorpan_> per html5, it should return "<x:br>"
  695. # [16:41] <zcorpan_> er
  696. # [16:41] <zcorpan_> "<x:input>"
  697. # [16:42] <zcorpan_> which won't be parsed into an html "input" element when parsed again
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  703. # [17:35] <zcorpan_> hmmm... offsetLeft
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  708. # [18:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: weren't you going to rewrite "The |m| element" to make it more distinct from |strong| and |em|? couldn't it do with a note of the issue?
  709. # [18:19] <zcorpan_> and rename it to "mark" so that it doesn't sound like "em"? or drop it altogether? :)
  710. # [18:20] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: I'd keep it, as it has its uses (like marking text that needs to be updated :P)
  711. # [18:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: At the end of #attributes (Attributes common to |ins| and |del| elements), there is a "element's >". I assume this is a typo.
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  715. # [18:40] <Hixie> gsnedders: send mail (about both)
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  718. # [18:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: Maybe you should specify who "you" is referring to when emailing five hundred people :-)
  719. # [18:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: hmm, just maybe.
  720. # [18:56] <Hixie> jesus, i spend time writing a tool for people and all i get from the htmlwg are complaints
  721. # [18:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: it is rather implied by the point of rewriting part of the spec as to referring to the editors
  722. # [18:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: you suck.
  723. # [18:56] <Hixie> what happened to people pulling their own weight
  724. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: people have got too fat to do so.
  725. # [18:57] <Philip`> Maybe that's what happens when you discourage people from saying "+1" or similarly non-constructive agreements - only people with (hopefully-)constructive criticism(/complaints) reply :-)
  726. # [18:58] * gsnedders waits for someone to take that completely out of context and threaten him at saying the group is fat
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  730. # [19:16] <Hixie> ok that guy telling me i should make the page work with his broken tool really pissed me off
  731. # [19:17] <zcorpan_> Hixie: take a deep breath... :)
  732. # [19:18] <Hixie> it's amazing to me how much the philosophies of the whatwg and the htmlwg (ignoring people who came from the whatwg) differ
  733. # [19:18] <Hixie> you guys (the people who first got involved through the whatwg) always answer "ooh, great! let's add more!", the htmlwg-only guys usually answer "that wasn't enough!"
  734. # [19:19] <Hixie> grr. bbl.
  735. # [19:20] * zcorpan_ thinks he has sent <ol> feedback to whatwg before, but can't find it again
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  776. # [22:51] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
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  780. # [23:15] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-1ddcaa5fd6589ca6) ("The computer fell asleep")
  781. # [23:18] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-d391e355.022-154-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  782. # [23:26] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.196.77)
  783. # [23:27] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.84.196.77) (Remote closed the connection)
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  785. # [23:32] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
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  787. # [23:48] * Quits: Charl (n=charlvn@c1-108-8.wblv.isadsl.co.za) ("Leaving")
  788. # [23:49] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.84.196.77) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  789. # [23:53] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-23bb7a8ba470c87d)
  790. # [23:54] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-227-106-21.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  791. # [23:55] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@198-48-3-37-dhcp.cafenet.co.nz)
  792. # Session Close: Wed Aug 22 00:00:00 2007

The end :)