/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 23 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.196.77)
  4. # [00:08] <KevinMarks> just found a browser layout oddity that seems HTML5ish
  5. # [00:08] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  6. # [00:09] <KevinMarks> http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/08/did_911_ensure_republican_hege.php has an invalid blockquote p nesting, that behaves differently in firefox in the feed compared to the page
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  11. # [00:42] * Philip` watches Googlebot and Yahoo! Slurp race through the static HTML issues list
  12. # [00:42] <Philip`> They're currently neck and neck, each having found 4 out of 1536 emails
  13. # [00:43] <takkaria> I'd never have thought that was a spectator sport
  14. # [00:43] <Philip`> Actually, they each found exactly the same four messages
  15. # [00:43] <Philip`> (Maybe they're just following links from the IRC logs?)
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  24. # [01:21] <Hixie> Philip`: so i dunno what happened but i now have 3346 e-mails in the database
  25. # [01:21] <Hixie> i'm thinking maybe the script died when it last ran
  26. # [01:22] <Hixie> do you want a dump again?
  27. # [01:22] <Hixie> (if so, what's your e-mail again?)
  28. # [01:24] <Hixie> in other news, who's in charge of the wiki again?
  29. # [01:24] <Hixie> i think we might want to do something about the spam, as suggested on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User_talk:Hixie, though i don't know what
  30. # [01:25] <Philip`> Hixie: When I download all the folder lists from you, that only gives 1515 messages
  31. # [01:25] <Hixie> it should have changed recently
  32. # [01:25] <Hixie> i reran the algorithm
  33. # [01:25] <Hixie> the script, rather
  34. # [01:25] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  35. # [01:25] <Philip`> The dump would be helpful so I don't have to download the rest, then
  36. # [01:26] <Philip`> (philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
  37. # [01:26] <Hixie> sent
  38. # [01:28] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137)
  39. # [01:28] <Philip`> Received
  40. # [01:28] <Philip`> (Thanks!)
  41. # [01:28] * Philip` tries to remember where he put his scripts
  42. # [01:32] <Philip`> Seems to be working
  43. # [01:34] <Philip`> The list of all emails is 7MB now
  44. # [01:34] <Philip`> and I see 3298 messages in it
  45. # [01:34] <Philip`> which is close enough to 3346
  46. # [01:34] <Philip`> (I guess some messages are not in any folder?)
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  48. # [01:39] <Hixie> you should have exactly 3346 in that csv dump
  49. # [01:39] <Hixie> the folders probably changed since yesterday
  50. # [01:39] <Hixie> if that matters
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  53. # [01:41] <Philip`> I get 3346 from the CSV, but downloading the 'folders' list then each 'folder ...' list gives (as of ten minutes ago) 3298
  54. # [01:41] <Hixie> odd
  55. # [01:42] <Hixie> i'd have expected the opposite
  56. # [01:42] <Hixie> that is, some of the e-mails are in more than one folder
  57. # [01:48] <Philip`> The CSV contains some message IDs like "<3019.217.124.88.212.1149790503.squirrel@webmail.canonicalscienc"
  58. # [01:48] <Hixie> i bet the IDs are truncated to 64 bytes
  59. # [01:49] <Hixie> but that's 56
  60. # [01:49] <Hixie> not 64
  61. # [01:49] <Hixie> so nevermind
  62. # [01:49] <Hixie> i'm confused
  63. # [01:49] <Philip`> Of the messages that are in the CSV but not in the folders list, almost all are truncated like that
  64. # [01:50] <Hixie> weird
  65. # [01:50] <Philip`> except for <<<<f0a054a12911d5a153482846f135f669@10013.local>>>>
  66. # [01:50] <Philip`> Oh, I think I see that one in the online bit too
  67. # [01:51] <Philip`> *online folders list
  68. # [01:51] <Philip`> so ignore that
  69. # [01:51] <Hixie> it's in the database
  70. # [01:51] <Hixie> though why, i don't know
  71. # [01:52] <Philip`> I see 54 truncated names in the CSV, which is 3346 - 3298
  72. # [01:52] <Philip`> Uh, not it isn't
  73. # [01:52] <Philip`> *no
  74. # [01:53] <Hixie> do you have a preferred username?
  75. # [01:53] <Philip`> I see 54 truncated names, plus 6 messages in two folders, and 3298 = 3346 - 54 + 6
  76. # [01:53] <Philip`> Depends on the context :-)
  77. # [01:54] <Philip`> (Usually something like "philip" works alright)
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  80. # [01:54] <Philip`> (except when someone else has stolen that name, and I have to add random punctuation characters)
  81. # [01:55] <Philip`> ((Actually, 5 messages in two folders and 1 message in three folders))
  82. # [01:57] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  83. # [02:01] <Hixie> ok so how did these get truncated
  84. # [02:01] <Hixie> wtf
  85. # [02:02] <Hixie> btw the way i update the tables each night is to lock them, drop them, then recreate them entirely
  86. # [02:02] <Hixie> which is why the number can change dramatically (if the script dies while it's updating)
  87. # [02:02] <Philip`> When you measured 56 bytes, did you happen to do it with something like perl -e'print length("<3019...@webmail...")' ?
  88. # [02:03] <Hixie> yes, did i screw that up? :-)
  89. # [02:04] <Philip`> Try the -w flag :-)
  90. # [02:04] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-247-173.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  91. # [02:04] <Hixie> d'oh
  92. # [02:04] <Hixie> i suck
  93. # [02:04] * Philip` made precisely the same mistake
  94. # [02:04] <Hixie> ok so i need to make it longer
  95. # [02:04] <Hixie> that means shrinking the other index column
  96. # [02:06] <Philip`> Why does it affect indexes?
  97. # [02:06] <Hixie> cos i use this as port of one of my primary indexes
  98. # [02:06] <Hixie> in the 'folders' table iirc
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  101. # [02:09] * Philip` doesn't see why expanding one would require shrinking another
  102. # [02:13] <Hixie> because i'm at the limit of the index key size
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  104. # [02:14] <Philip`> The index can just be on a short prefix of the column and it should work exactly the same, I thought
  105. # [02:14] <Philip`> But maybe that doesn't work so well when it's meant to be a unique index
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  107. # [02:21] <Hixie> ok regenning the db
  108. # [02:22] <Hixie> the reason they were cropped in the dump and not on the site is that the site was using the folders table instead of the emails table and the two tables had different lengths for the ids!
  109. # [02:22] <Hixie> <- moron
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  111. # [02:25] <Philip`> Okay - once it's done, I can just download the 54 extra emails through the API
  112. # [02:26] <Hixie> done
  113. # [02:26] <Hixie> (you can also dump it straight from the database)
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  115. # [02:28] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-1d44f5c561d716f8) ("The computer fell asleep")
  116. # [02:31] <Philip`> Hmm, it looks like I got the same folders list as before
  117. # [02:32] <Philip`> (unless I messed up somewhere)
  118. # [02:32] <Philip`> with only the 3298 messages
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  121. # [02:37] <Hixie> there's something really weird going on
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  123. # [02:40] <Hixie> there are 3,353 entries in the 'emails' table
  124. # [02:40] <Hixie> there are 3,359 in the 'folders' table (which includes dupes)
  125. # [02:40] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  126. # [02:41] <Philip`> There are 3,353 distinct 'message' values in the 'folders' table, and they all correspond to an 'id' in 'emails'
  127. # [02:41] <Hixie> right
  128. # [02:41] <Philip`> so that all seems to be correct
  129. # [02:41] <Hixie> (i just checked)
  130. # [02:41] <Hixie> so why do you only get 3298 if you use the api
  131. # [02:41] <Philip`> Is there any caching somewhere?
  132. # [02:41] <Hixie> oh, maybe, yeah
  133. # [02:41] <Philip`> (I deleted my own cache before downloading the folders list again)
  134. # [02:42] <Hixie> i just killed my server, try again
  135. # [02:43] * Philip` tries
  136. # [02:45] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-110-141.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Client Quit)
  137. # [02:46] <Philip`> 3359
  138. # [02:46] <Philip`> Perfect :-)
  139. # [02:46] <Hixie> phew
  140. # [02:46] <Hixie> good call on the caching
  141. # [02:46] <Hixie> i've added a scary line to my regen script that kills the server
  142. # [02:47] * Joins: yod (n=ot@dhcp-247-29.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  143. # [02:48] <Philip`> Is there not a less drastic way to clear the cache?
  144. # [02:48] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f3bb1e9857b0306c)
  145. # [02:49] * Philip` 's usual approach to caching is "nobody uses my stuff anyway, so it doesn't matter if it's slow and resource-intensive"
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  148. # [02:49] <Hixie> Philip`: that was my approach, and then you started fetching all this data... ;-)
  149. # [02:49] <Hixie> Philip`: there's probably a better way, but *shrug*
  150. # [02:50] <Hixie> the server knows how to handle it and the CGI scripts that talk to it know how to handle the server script going away
  151. # [02:50] <Hixie> (the server i'm talking about isn't the database, it's a cgi script that talks a little tcp protocol to my other cgi scrits)
  152. # [02:50] <Hixie> scripts
  153. # [02:51] <Philip`> Hmm, good point - I'll make sure I don't offer any APIs and tempt people to use them :-)
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  156. # [02:52] <Philip`> (Ah, okay, that's less drastic than killing MySQL and Apache and whatever)
  157. # [02:52] <Hixie> yeah
  158. # [02:52] <Hixie> i really wish we had TCPConnection
  159. # [02:52] <Hixie> it would be so much better than having this mess
  160. # [02:52] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@h460d537c.area2.spcsdns.net)
  161. # [02:52] <Hixie> and then i could do away with everything except the server script
  162. # [02:56] * Quits: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-8f32e993b1e6856e) (Client Quit)
  163. # [02:58] <Hixie> hey anyone recall the uris of the studies similar to the webstats one i did?
  164. # [02:58] <Hixie> there was one that had a flower on the front page iirc
  165. # [02:59] <Philip`> http://triin.net/2006/06/12/Coding_practices_of_web_pages ?
  166. # [02:59] <Hixie> yes!
  167. # [02:59] <Hixie> thanks!
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  172. # [03:09] <Philip`> http://triin.net/archive/kool/webstat/figure-33.png - you can tell the data set had a very high proportion of CNN pages
  173. # [03:10] <Hixie> you should see the number of <nyt_copyright> elements in the studies i do :-P
  174. # [03:10] <Hixie> not enough to come in the top 100 or anything, but still significant
  175. # [03:10] <Philip`> cnn.com was 5% of the URLs on dmoz.org when I last counted
  176. # [03:11] <Hixie> yeah
  177. # [03:11] <Hixie> cnn.com has a lot of pages
  178. # [03:11] <Philip`> I've no idea who keeps submitting them all to dmoz.org
  179. # [03:11] <Hixie> cnn, maybe
  180. # [03:11] <Philip`> Oh, that would make sense
  181. # [03:12] <Hixie> comparing http://triin.net/archive/kool/webstat/figure-12.png to http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/charts/unique-elements-per-page.svg is interesting
  182. # [03:13] <Hixie> it's clearly not a perfect normal distribution
  183. # [03:13] <Hixie> there's a very clear bump around 5-10 in both graphs
  184. # [03:13] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@h460d6427.area2.spcsdns.net)
  185. # [03:13] <Hixie> actually i guess i'd be approximately a poisson, not a normal, distribution.
  186. # [03:15] <Philip`> It seems everyone has <html>, <head>, <title>, <body>, and then I guess you don't need more than a few of the next ones (<meta>, <a>, <img>, <br>, <table>, etc) to make up the rest of your page
  187. # [03:15] <Lachy> Hixie, I'm unable to login to the wiki server using SFTP. It responds with unable to authenticate.
  188. # [03:15] <Hixie> oh it was probably one of the accounts that dreamhost changed the passwd on
  189. # [03:15] <Lachy> same with the blog
  190. # [03:15] <Hixie> let me fix it
  191. # [03:16] <Lachy> whatwikiuser and lhunt were the usernames
  192. # [03:16] <Philip`> The spike at 6 on triin.net looks odd, since I can't imagine people doing much with just two extra tags
  193. # [03:16] <Hixie> Philip`: the spike is a bit later on the google one but yeah
  194. # [03:16] <Hixie> there's a prike
  195. # [03:16] <Hixie> spike
  196. # [03:17] * Philip` wonders if he can get that graph from his own data
  197. # [03:17] <Hixie> what's the uri to yours again?
  198. # [03:17] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index
  199. # [03:21] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  200. # [03:22] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/tagcount.html
  201. # [03:23] * Lachy installs the captcha extension
  202. # [03:24] <Lachy> can someone with an ordinary user account on the wiki attempt to make an edit to see if it works? (sysops won't see it)
  203. # [03:24] * Philip` still likes the "[x] Are you a spambot?" approach to blocking spam
  204. # [03:24] <Lachy> wiki.whatwg.org
  205. # [03:24] <Philip`> (Doesn't work on human spammers, but computers never answer the question right)
  206. # [03:24] <Hixie> Philip`: see! see! your data has the same thing!
  207. # [03:25] <Philip`> My data comes from exactly the same source as the triin.net stuff, so that's not surprising :-)
  208. # [03:25] <Philip`> with the same 5% cnn.com, and quite a lot of weather.com
  209. # [03:25] <Hixie> heh
  210. # [03:25] <Hixie> pity :-P
  211. # [03:25] <Philip`> (except a much smaller sample)
  212. # [03:26] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-212-47.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  213. # [03:26] <Philip`> Lachy: It let me save a change without asking any hard questions
  214. # [03:26] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-212-47.pool.emnet.ne.jp) (Remote closed the connection)
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  216. # [03:27] <Lachy> oops, It hadn't uploaded LocalSettings.php
  217. # [03:27] <Lachy> try again
  218. # [03:27] <Lachy> aargh! fatal error.
  219. # [03:29] <Hixie> i assume triin.net is Pene Saarsoo's site
  220. # [03:29] <Hixie> Rene
  221. # [03:29] * Philip` looks at the spikey bits in more detail
  222. # [03:30] <Lachy> Philip`, fixed the error, can you try again?
  223. # [03:34] <Philip`> Lachy: Is it meant to show on the editing page, or only after saving?
  224. # [03:34] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.195)
  225. # [03:34] <Lachy> I believe it's supposed to be after attempting to save
  226. # [03:35] <Lachy> these are the instructions http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit
  227. # [03:35] <Lachy> it doesn't tell me much
  228. # [03:35] <Philip`> It let me save again without anything
  229. # [03:36] <Philip`> Hixie: Of 114 the pages with 6 tag names, 61 have <frameset> and <frame>
  230. # [03:36] <Philip`> (and most have <meta>, <title>, <html>, <head>)
  231. # [03:36] <Philip`> which explains the spike at 6
  232. # [03:36] <Philip`> (since they're all just frameset pages)
  233. # [03:37] <Hixie> oooh
  234. # [03:37] <Hixie> interesting
  235. # [03:37] <Philip`> Of the 208 pages with 8, 137 have <noframes>, 149 have <frameset> and <frame>, and most have meta/body/title/head/html
  236. # [03:38] <Philip`> so it seems they're all just frameset pages again
  237. # [03:38] <Hixie> aah
  238. # [03:38] <Hixie> interesting stuff!
  239. # [03:38] <Philip`> Same for 9 tags (244 pages, 168 have frames, 159 have noframes, 141 have p)
  240. # [03:38] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@h460d537c.area2.spcsdns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  241. # [03:39] <Lachy> Philip`, it will if you attempt to add a URL or attempt to create an account
  242. # [03:39] <Lachy> it asks the user a simple math questions like: 44 - 5 = ?
  243. # [03:40] <Philip`> Lachy: Aha, that works
  244. # [03:40] <Philip`> "69 - 5 ="
  245. # [03:40] * Philip` thinks a bit
  246. # [03:40] <Philip`> Oh, it wasn't 61
  247. # [03:41] <Philip`> The "Create account" page says "82 + 6 ="
  248. # [03:41] <Philip`> so that seems to be working
  249. # [03:54] <Philip`> Hixie: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/tagcount.html
  250. # [03:54] <Philip`> now with details about what tags the various groups of pages use
  251. # [03:54] <Hixie> neat
  252. # [03:55] <Philip`> Hmm, the page using 41 tags looks quite legitimate
  253. # [03:56] <Hixie> heh
  254. # [03:56] <Philip`> (http://community.webshots.com/user/JulioUU)
  255. # [03:57] <Hixie> woot! you have some nyt_copyright elements too!
  256. # [03:57] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/nyt_copyright
  257. # [03:57] <Philip`> Only one :-(
  258. # [03:58] <Hixie> i got over a million of those in my sample last year
  259. # [03:58] <Hixie> (don't recall what the recent numbers are)
  260. # [03:58] <Hixie> er, not last year. year before.
  261. # [03:58] <Hixie> whenever my first sample was.
  262. # [04:01] <Philip`> 11 pages with nothing but <meta> - looks like those are redirects
  263. # [04:01] <Hixie> yeah
  264. # [04:07] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  265. # [04:07] <Philip`> (It's nice having data about eight thousand pages rather than eight billion, because I can write hopelessly inefficient SQL queries and still get information back in a few seconds ;-) )
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  271. # [04:40] <Lachy> why do people keep overreacting and bringing up the headers issue all the time?! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0926.html
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  276. # [05:15] <Hixie> "headers= are allready counted by our editor as insignificant"
  277. # [05:15] <Hixie> they are? i thought i'd not yet looked at them.
  278. # [05:22] <Lachy> well, apparently Leif knows something about you that you don't :-)
  279. # [05:23] <Hixie> good to know
  280. # [05:23] <Hixie> i better update my opinions to think that headers="" is insignificant then
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  283. # [05:39] <Lachy> I'm trying to think of a way to explain that the significance of a feature isn't dependent upon stats alone and give some examples of other factors that could be considered. any suggestions?
  284. # [05:40] <othermaciej> there's a lot of things to consider
  285. # [05:41] <othermaciej> - does the feature fulfill a needed use case?
  286. # [05:41] <othermaciej> - is it possible to do the same things as well without the feature?
  287. # [05:41] <othermaciej> - which existing user agents, if any, implement the feature?
  288. # [05:41] <othermaciej> - is the feature used widely in existing content?
  289. # [05:42] <Hixie> - have existing user agents invented similar proprietary features to address the use case
  290. # [05:42] <Hixie> - have libraries (e.g. dojo) implemented work arounds for the lack of the feature?
  291. # [05:42] <Lachy> - benefits to users and authors
  292. # [05:42] <othermaciej> - is most existing use (if there is any) such that it would be beneficial or hamful to the goal of the feature to support it?
  293. # [05:43] <othermaciej> for example if a feature is not implemented by mainstream browsers but is widely used, it becomes likely that at least some content using it will depend on it being ignored
  294. # [05:44] <othermaciej> there's all sorts of things to think about
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  296. # [05:44] <Lachy> thanks, that's a good list
  297. # [05:45] <othermaciej> and another thing to consider is that different criteria may apply to whether a feature is required for implementations, and to whether it is valid for content
  298. # [05:45] <othermaciej> a feature that is considered to have no valid use cases and to violate various important principles may nontheless be required for implementations
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  310. # [07:18] <Hixie> so i'm examining some of my data collected over teh past few months with an eye towards what can be published
  311. # [07:18] <Hixie> looking at the longdesc="" data closer, it seems the situation is even more dire than i thought
  312. # [07:19] <Hixie> only about 0.6% of <img> elements with a longdesc="" attribute have a useful value, as far as i can tell
  313. # [07:19] <Hixie> which make it about 0.0007% of <img> elements
  314. # [07:19] <othermaciej> what are some of the kinds of values that are non-useful?
  315. # [07:20] <Hixie> all the wikipedia <img> elements have bogus values that point to non-descriptions
  316. # [07:20] <Hixie> there are also many <img> elements that have longdesc="" attributes with values that are redundant with an ancestor <a> element's href="" attribute
  317. # [07:20] <Hixie> or that point to the root of another domain
  318. # [07:21] <othermaciej> wow
  319. # [07:22] <Hixie> hm, i didn't check for identity with the alt="" attribute
  320. # [07:22] <Hixie> i should have
  321. # [07:24] <Lachy> Hixie, there's a bug in your issues list http://www.whatwg.org/issues/top - see the top issue that says 3 votes, yet there's only 1
  322. # [07:25] <Hixie> woah, clicking it changes the result
  323. # [07:25] <Hixie> freaky
  324. # [07:25] <Hixie> noted
  325. # [07:25] <Hixie> thanks
  326. # [07:26] <Lachy> what evidence was presented in support of longdesc?
  327. # [07:26] <Hixie> dunno, haven't studied it beyond looking at this data so far
  328. # [07:27] * Lachy checks the wiki
  329. # [07:27] <Lachy> hmm. some people want longdesc on iframe too
  330. # [07:28] <othermaciej> that sounds amazingly redundant
  331. # [07:28] <othermaciej> the iframe itself would in general contain markup
  332. # [07:28] <othermaciej> why would you need a markup alternative to it?
  333. # [07:29] <Hixie> where else can spammers put their links? we've blocked off most of the other places
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  335. # [07:33] <Lachy> Hixie, can you publish a list of URIs for sites that look like they're using longdesc legitimately?
  336. # [07:35] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/292
  337. # [07:35] <Lachy> is that all of them, or just a sample?
  338. # [07:35] <Hixie> sample of 100
  339. # [07:36] <Hixie> there were millions that didn't hit any of my heuristics
  340. # [07:36] <Hixie> (about 6% of <img> elements with a longdesc="")
  341. # [07:36] <Lachy> This is not legitmate: <a href="http://www.google.co.jp/"><img src="http://blog2.fc2.com/2/20century/file/Logo_20s.gif" alt="Google" height="75" width="143" longdesc="http://www.google.co.jp/logos.html" /></a>
  342. # [07:36] <Hixie> indeed not
  343. # [07:37] <Hixie> there are many that are not
  344. # [07:37] <Hixie> about 90% by the sample i looked at
  345. # [07:37] <Lachy> I'll let you know if I find one that is
  346. # [07:40] <Lachy> it's interesting how the entire list of use cases given in the wiki, doesn't actually include any use cases. Just a list of different disabilities that might benefit from it
  347. # [07:47] <Hixie> k well the score doesn't change when you open one anymore
  348. # [07:47] <Hixie> but i don't see why the score of the top one is wrong
  349. # [07:48] <Lachy> maybe it thinks I'm so important that my vote is worth 2? :-)
  350. # [07:49] <Hixie> seems unlikely! ;-)
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  353. # [07:55] <Hixie> either i don't understand GROUP BY / COUNT() or there's a bug in mysql
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  357. # [08:04] <Hixie> oh!
  358. # [08:04] <Hixie> the message is in two folders!
  359. # [08:09] <Hixie> ok fixed
  360. # [08:09] * Hixie changed COUNT(...) to COUNT(DISTINCT ...)
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  370. # [09:06] <Lachy> Hixie, one attempted legitimate use of longdesc, but it's still questionable http://www.tcfp.state.tx.us/standards/standards_manual/standards_manual.asp?chapter=431429421 (see the state of texas logo at the bottom)
  371. # [09:06] <Lachy> links to http://www.tcfp.state.tx.us/image_description.txt
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  374. # [09:28] <jruderman> .txt!
  375. # [09:29] <othermaciej> that could totally be alt text
  376. # [09:29] <othermaciej> the best part is that the plaintext contains a URL
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  379. # [09:42] <Lachy> I updated the wiki to add some *real* use cases to replace the list of purported beneficiaries that was there http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention
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  384. # [10:14] <Dashiva> Lachy: Sorry if I double-posted you yesterday, had some trouble finding the right account for w3c posting
  385. # [10:14] * Dashiva dreams about a mailing list with useful reply-to
  386. # [10:14] <Lachy> double posted me? which message?
  387. # [10:15] <Lachy> which name do you use in emails?
  388. # [10:15] <Dashiva> magnusrk+something@
  389. # [10:15] <Lachy> BTW, munging reply-to headers is considered bad practice and I'm glad the W3C doesn't do it
  390. # [10:17] <Dashiva> I've yet to see an argument against it that wasn't based on happening 20 years ago
  391. # [10:17] <Lachy> ah, right. I did get multiple copies of that one, but it doesn't bother me since I just deleted it along with the other dupes
  392. # [10:18] <Lachy> I've yet to see a convincing argument for it that isn't based on a users inability to use their mail client properly
  393. # [10:18] <takkaria> given that HTML5 is based in part around users' inability to write valid markup, it seems like that might be a pretty good reason. :)
  394. # [10:19] <Lachy> just press Reply All (or equivalent). It's usually right next to the Reply button!
  395. # [10:19] <Dashiva> That's the problem
  396. # [10:19] <takkaria> Lachy: oh, I agree, I just enjoy the mild irony. :)
  397. # [10:19] <Dashiva> I got a mail from Robert Burns today that didn't contain a single word I've said because i've been passed along by reply all for who knows how long
  398. # [10:20] <Lachy> people need to learn to trim the recipient list too!
  399. # [10:20] <Dashiva> User education doesn't work, you should know that ;)
  400. # [10:20] <takkaria> Lachy: btw, rob moved your use cases to "authoring cases" and moved what were "use cases" before back there
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  402. # [10:21] <Lachy> WTF???
  403. # [10:21] <Lachy> They're not use cases!
  404. # [10:22] <takkaria> I tried to clean up the <img>fallback</img> section a while ago to remove duplicates, and he just reverted it, so I gave up on it
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  406. # [10:24] <zcorpan> amusing
  407. # [10:25] * Lachy reverted rob's change
  408. # [10:25] <Dashiva> revert war, I choose you
  409. # [10:26] * zcorpan escapes the expected bashing
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  411. # [10:29] * takkaria wonders if the Design Principles aren't better changed to "How the HTML WG should work"
  412. # [10:33] <takkaria> Lachy: btw, are you going to look through all of Hixie's longdesc urls?
  413. # [10:33] <Lachy> not all of them. I looked through about a dozen randomly selected
  414. # [10:35] <zcorpan> random selection, eh? in the statistical sense? not biased in some way? ;)
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  416. # [10:36] <Lachy> well, not entirely random. I just picked a couple from the top, scrolled down a bit and picked a few others, then repeated.
  417. # [10:36] <Lachy> it was sort of biased by ignoring the wikipedia entires that I knew were bogus
  418. # [10:37] <takkaria> I assume someone's already argued with the wikimedia people about how they're misuing longdesc?
  419. # [10:38] <Lachy> don't know, probably.
  420. # [10:40] * takkaria adds that to his todolist
  421. # [10:51] <Lachy> Rob isn't listening again, I give up
  422. # [10:53] <takkaria> Lachy: apologies; I've sent you two duplicate replies to your longdesc post, both off-list
  423. # [10:53] <takkaria> I confuse myself by having too many email accounts and never hitting reply-to-all
  424. # [10:55] <Lachy> takkaria, just resend it to the list, it doesn't matter if I get dupes
  425. # [10:55] * takkaria has done so
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  431. # [11:37] <zcorpan> um
  432. # [11:37] * takkaria sighs at Rob for another contentless post
  433. # [11:37] <zcorpan> what should happen if you serve a gif as image/png and use it in an <object>?
  434. # [11:38] <zcorpan> browsers just decode it as a gif
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  440. # [12:00] <Lachy> zcorpan, browsers don't care what image MIME is use, they just invoke the appropriate image library by sniffing the first few bytes of the file, looking for the signature
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  444. # [12:04] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
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  447. # [12:37] <zcorpan> Lachy: right... so image/png, image/gif, etc, all go through "Content-Type sniffing: image"
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  455. # [13:11] <Lachy> zcorpan, yeah, something like that
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  472. # [14:50] <zcorpan> hmm, wonder if browsers look at the file extension in their sniffing code
  473. # [14:52] <Whiskey_M> if it helps I have noted that for sites that serve content (normally avi's ) with incorrect headers IE will normally serve it with the application based upon extension, rather than FF which tends to serve based on the header
  474. # [14:54] <zcorpan> interesting
  475. # [14:56] <Philip`> Is that for content that the browser displays itself, or for content where it either saves to disk or asks the OS to find some external program to open it?
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  488. # [17:34] <Lachy> http://blog.whatwg.org/omit-alt
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  490. # [17:37] <Lachy> jgraham, that's a good explanation of the flag example you posted. Thanks, now I don't have to respond. :-)
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  524. # [20:04] <gsnedders> who actually owns html5.org?
  525. # [20:05] <Lachy> gsnedders, anne
  526. # [20:05] <gsnedders> ah
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  571. # [23:26] <Hixie> btw Lachy if you can suggest some page-only heuristics (i.e. not involving the network) for detecting bogus longdesc=""s that would have caught them in the URLs i mentioned, it would be useful
  572. # [23:26] <Hixie> i'd be able to rerun the study excluding those
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  576. # [23:41] * om_lunch is now known as othermaciej
  577. # [23:41] <othermaciej> I looked at a few of those and they generally didn't look detectable from the page context alone
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  580. # [23:44] <Hixie> yeah that was my conclusion too
  581. # [23:45] <Hixie> so i haven't yet looked at the headers="" stuff in detail
  582. # [23:45] <Hixie> but i wonder
  583. # [23:46] <Hixie> if i look at it, and find that imho we shouldn't include headers="" (which could be the case, just like it could be the case that we _should_ include it)
  584. # [23:46] <Hixie> will the situation become worse or better?
  585. # [23:46] <Hixie> in other words, is it better for the working group for me to address the issue at its proper time, or should i prioritise it given that the risk of that is that the attribute does in fact not get kept?
  586. # [23:50] <othermaciej> whether it has a positive effect on attitudes depends on the outcome
  587. # [23:50] <jgraham> Hixie: The problem is that we are unlikely to ever reach consensus on a spec that does not include headers irrespective of its technical merit
  588. # [23:50] <othermaciej> doing enough work to predict the outcome but not actually make any changes would not really be acting in good faith though, I think
  589. # [23:51] <Hixie> jgraham: we'll never reach consensus on the spec anyway
  590. # [23:51] <jgraham> Hixie: Fair point.
  591. # [23:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah i wouldn't do that
  592. # [23:51] <othermaciej> I think there is a sense from some quarters that any feature that is nominally "for accessibility" is absolutely needed, regardless of whether it does anything to help accessibility in practice
  593. # [23:51] <Hixie> right
  594. # [23:52] <othermaciej> and that even trying to study the question of whether it helps accessibility in practice is somehow illegitimate
  595. # [23:53] <othermaciej> notwithstanding what I think of specific features, it is hard to make a good spec when there are sacred cows that may not be examined critically, so I don't know how much we can accomodate that point of view
  596. # [23:53] <Hixie> i'm not considering any cows sacred
  597. # [23:53] <billmason> I would suggest that if headers got some kind of priority and a determination made, even if the determination was "keep it", there would just be a move to argue the next accessibilty issue in dispute immediately. I would not make it a special priority just to give those evangelizing for it a more immediate answer.
  598. # [23:54] <Hixie> i'm not really concerned about appeasing people, i want to make the spec the best html spec possible, including addressing the goal of making documents that use the language universally accessible.
  599. # [23:54] <othermaciej> I know you don't - I'm just saying it's hard to collaborate with someone who does have sacred cows, even if you happen to agree with them on one point
  600. # [23:54] <jgraham> But it makes everyone's life miserable when some people consider cows to be sacred and they are taken to slaughter (so to speak)
  601. # [23:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
  602. # [23:55] <Hixie> billmason: yeah. so that argues for just treating it like any other issue, and going with the FIFO principle, right?
  603. # [23:55] <billmason> That would be my take on it, yes.
  604. # [23:55] <Hixie> i think that's probably the best course of action
  605. # [23:55] <billmason> And for parsing logs later to write emails, I say that as a person with a general accessibility interest/focus/etc.
  606. # [23:55] <Hixie> i expect Dan to start telling me to prioritise public-html wg feedback over existing whatwg feedback though.
  607. # [23:56] <Hixie> he seems to have interpreted my "a few months" as "3 or so months" not "20 or so months" which is probably closer to realistic.
  608. # [23:56] <othermaciej> I do think Chaals made a good point that accessibility features might deserve special status even if only a subset of especially accessible sites use them (properly), since those might be the only sites that someone with a given disability can use at all
  609. # [23:56] <Hixie> not sure what to do about that if he does ask me to do so
  610. # [23:56] <othermaciej> but I don't know if the evidence bears that out as a justification for headers="" or the like
  611. # [23:57] <jgraham> Hixie: Two stacks, one issue from the top of each in turn?
  612. # [23:57] <othermaciej> it would require examples of actual particularly accessible sites that consistently use it in a way that is beneficial
  613. # [23:57] <othermaciej> not just a theory that there might be some
  614. # [23:57] <Hixie> othermaciej: well, there are two things, right, there's the features that are rarely used but when used make the page better, and there are the features that are very widely misused to the point where they actively hurt the user's experience on most sites
  615. # [23:58] <Hixie> longdesc clearly falls into the latter category according to all the studies i've done or seen
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  617. # [23:58] <Hixie> as in, exposing longdesc will mostly expose the user to spam or useless content, even on supposedly accessibility-aware pages
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  619. # [23:59] * zcorpan would think that the way tabindex is implemented, it actively hurts the user experience too. treating all positive numbers as 0 for tabindex would, i think, have better user experience
  620. # Session Close: Fri Aug 24 00:00:00 2007

The end :)