/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 05 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:53] <Hixie> zcorpan: thanks
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  11. # [00:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it by any chance possible that JAWS might be a piece of software with bad defaults but configurable to be more bearable?
  12. # [00:54] <hsivonen> I hear it has lots of prefs
  13. # [00:54] <Hixie> it certainly has bad defaults
  14. # [00:55] <Hixie> but the prefs UI is amongst the worst UI i have ever seen (or heard)
  15. # [00:55] <Hixie> it's worse than the windows registry
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  21. # [00:57] * Hixie gets out the JAWS manual to work out how the heck to navigate the Web again
  22. # [01:01] <Hixie> god jaws sucks
  23. # [01:01] <Hixie> i'm at the windows desktop
  24. # [01:01] * karlUshi wonders if hixie used jaws with a piece of cloth on his eyes
  25. # [01:01] <Hixie> i turn the screen off
  26. # [01:01] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@ashy.demon.co.uk)
  27. # [01:01] <karlUshi> ah good, but I would have shut off my visual sense
  28. # [01:02] <karlUshi> it is an interesting experiment
  29. # [01:02] <karlUshi> though desktop browsers from what I see from my parents are also very hard to use
  30. # [01:02] <Hixie> i can't close my eyes, with my eyes closed i couldn't read the jaws manual which i need to work out wtf the navigation keys are
  31. # [01:03] * Hixie finally finds "read line" in the manual (Caps Lock + I, obviously)
  32. # [01:03] <gsnedders> It's all right, it's all right Hixie, she moves in mysterious ways.
  33. # [01:03] <Hixie> woot, finally launched IE
  34. # [01:04] <gsnedders> (yes, I'm getting my own back on all your hidden references to various things)
  35. # [01:04] <Hixie> in my blog you mean?
  36. # [01:05] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-d391e355.022-154-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  37. # [01:05] <webben_> Hixie: Have you read Surf's Up?
  38. # [01:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: oh, just all the references you have to all sorts of things all over the place, in HTML 5, on your blog, and too many other places
  39. # [01:05] <Hixie> heh
  40. # [01:06] <gsnedders> it's not really hard to find, though
  41. # [01:06] <gsnedders> anyhow, school starts in just under nine hours, time for me to go sleep
  42. # [01:08] * takkaria wonders how the mobile IE works on the real web
  43. # [01:08] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-118-51.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  44. # [01:09] <hsivonen> takkaria: what's the relationship to normal IE codebase-wise?
  45. # [01:09] <Hixie> on this page:
  46. # [01:09] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/screen-readers/
  47. # [01:10] <Hixie> it says "Index of /tests/adhoc/html/screen-readers" three times
  48. # [01:10] <Hixie> and says "eighty" twice (at the end of a line each time)
  49. # [01:10] <Hixie> why?!?!
  50. # [01:10] <webben_> it should say the first thing twice because it is in both title and h1
  51. # [01:11] <takkaria> hsivonen: I have no idea. I'm getting a windows mobile smartphone tomorrow, though, so I guess I'll see how well it works then...
  52. # [01:11] <takkaria> I guess I can get opera mobile or whatever the portable mozilla browser's called though
  53. # [01:11] <hsivonen> http://www.lukew.com/resources/articles/PSactions.asp
  54. # [01:12] <Hixie> webben_: twice i would understand
  55. # [01:12] <takkaria> Hixie: 80? is that the width of the line or something?
  56. # [01:12] <Hixie> (though it's still retarded)
  57. # [01:12] <Hixie> takkaria: maybe? but why does it say it, even then?!
  58. # [01:13] <webben_> Hixie: What happens in Fox?
  59. # [01:13] <karlUshi> nah it is not 80, but "s'ti" in Quebecois. It means something like "geez"
  60. # [01:14] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  61. # [01:14] <Hixie> webben_: dunno, don't want to go through the pain of switching browsers yet!
  62. # [01:14] <takkaria> I think part of the problem of screenreaders for the web is that there isn't actually a web-specific screnreader
  63. # [01:14] <takkaria> one of those could do a much better job, I imagine
  64. # [01:15] <webben_> takkaria: There are. But there shouldn't be any need for such a thing.
  65. # [01:15] <webben_> takkaria: HTML is in a lot of different applications, don't forget, not just web browsers.
  66. # [01:15] <webben_> e.g. WebKit is used in Colloquy and Mail
  67. # [01:16] <takkaria> mm, true. but in applications it tends to be slightly different, since they're not browsers
  68. # [01:16] <karlUshi> plus the fact that navigating the web is not the only thing
  69. # [01:16] <karlUshi> you have to be able to use the desktop as large
  70. # [01:16] <webben_> and the process of transmuting HTML to a screen reader-navigable DOM is very similar to that for Word files and PDF files and everything
  71. # [01:17] <webben_> takkaria: There have been many attempts at providing dedicated browsers. But there are major advantages to using the same software as sighted peers.
  72. # [01:17] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.107.191)
  73. # [01:17] <Hixie> i tend to agree that there should be a dedicated speech browser rather than a screen reader, but that's a separate problem entirely
  74. # [01:17] <takkaria> fair enough. I can see that
  75. # [01:18] <takkaria> but if HTML5 works out, then I would imagine that a dedicated browser would be much easier than at present
  76. # [01:18] <Hixie> sure wish i knew why it kept saying "ninety eight percent"
  77. # [01:18] <webben_> Hixie: That's page load information.
  78. # [01:18] <webben_> i.e. how much of the page has loaded
  79. # [01:19] <webben_> Hixie: quite possibly that was your 80 earlier too
  80. # [01:19] <Hixie> no, IE is not doing anything
  81. # [01:19] <Hixie> maybe, though i doubt it, it happens in the same place on that page
  82. # [01:21] * karlUshi would suggest hixie to learn with a blind user who is using a lot jaws.
  83. # [01:21] <takkaria> Hixie: are you IRCing on the same machine as the one you're using JAWS on?
  84. # [01:21] <karlUshi> each category of individuals develops skills with regards to software, and there is always a learning curve
  85. # [01:22] <Hixie> takkaria: no
  86. # [01:23] <Hixie> karlUshi: this is not software that should have a notable learning curve. the target audience includes the learning disabled.
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  88. # [01:23] <Hixie> i seem to have entered some mouse-related reading mode
  89. # [01:23] <Hixie> maybe something to do with the cursor settings
  90. # [01:23] <karlUshi> cough cough :) wishful thinking :)
  91. # [01:24] <webben_> Hixie: Heh. So does Windows. :)
  92. # [01:24] <Hixie> karlUshi: this is orders of magnitude harder than it needs to be
  93. # [01:24] <Hixie> i can't work out how to get this out of this strange mode
  94. # [01:24] * Hixie logs out and back in agaain
  95. # [01:25] <webben_> Hixie: Have you played around with Window-Eyes yet?
  96. # [01:25] <Hixie> no
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  98. # [01:25] <webben_> I've tended to find that less overwhelming than JAWS.
  99. # [01:25] <karlUshi> how do *you* know what *needs* to be, again look at my previous comment, spend time with a real user :) and identify the real problem. :)
  100. # [01:25] <karlUshi> moving to svgopen
  101. # [01:25] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-188.rev.home.ne.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  102. # [01:27] <Hixie> webben_: ah
  103. # [01:27] <Hixie> christ this weird ass mode followed my to the logon box
  104. # [01:27] <Hixie> it's only reading the stuff from the disabled dialog
  105. # [01:27] <webben_> Hixie: What happens in this mode exactly?
  106. # [01:28] <Hixie> the dialog that's in front telling me my password is wrong is not reading it
  107. # [01:28] <Hixie> s/it//
  108. # [01:28] <takkaria> hsivonen: that forms design post is very interesting, ta
  109. # [01:28] <Hixie> webben_: hard to describe
  110. # [01:29] <Hixie> so "say all" doesn't work in dialogs, i guess
  111. # [01:30] <webben_> I don't think it would
  112. # [01:30] <Hixie> i hit "say paragraph" and it says "blank"
  113. # [01:30] <Hixie> helpful, thanks jaws
  114. # [01:30] <webben_> Hixie: try just tabbing around?
  115. # [01:30] <webben_> (if this is a dialog)
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  117. # [01:30] <Hixie> webben_: an alert dialog, i mean
  118. # [01:31] <Hixie> webben_: pressing tab just makes it say "tab".
  119. # [01:31] <Hixie> i can't get it to read me the message again
  120. # [01:31] <webben_> Hixie: try INSERT + B (read current window)
  121. # [01:32] <Hixie> wait, i've found the bug
  122. # [01:33] <Hixie> (i'm in laptop mode, btw, so i use caps lock instead of insert)
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  124. # [01:33] <Hixie> caps lock Y dismisses the alert dialog without telling me
  125. # [01:33] <Hixie> christ is that confusing
  126. # [01:33] <webben_> Hixie: ah okay.
  127. # [01:33] <Hixie> caps lock - b is a useful command, thanks
  128. # [01:34] <webben_> yw
  129. # [01:34] <Hixie> i don't understand why caps lock - a isn't the same thing though
  130. # [01:34] <Hixie> why two commands?
  131. # [01:35] <webben_> Hixie: Judging from http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/JAWSkeystrokes.asp INSERT+A just reads the address bar
  132. # [01:35] <Hixie> capslock+a is say all in laptop mode
  133. # [01:36] <webben_> Hixie: I suspect say all is specific to buffers
  134. # [01:36] <Hixie> seems so
  135. # [01:36] <webben_> whereas in dialogs JAWS would be in some sort of mode that more closely follows MSAA
  136. # [01:36] <webben_> (like forms mode in webpages)
  137. # [01:38] <webben_> If you have a window which also has a document loaded into a buffer, I guess there is a logic in there being two different commands.
  138. # [01:40] <Hixie> yeah
  139. # [01:40] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
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  144. # [01:55] <Hixie> ok, here's a test case for JAWS: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/screen-readers/001.html
  145. # [02:00] <webben_> What's it reading wrong there?
  146. # [02:01] <Hixie> reads everything after "elephants" on the second line in the same voice as "elephants"
  147. # [02:01] <webben_> Hixie: This is with the Web Rent-A-Crowd scheme or something is it?
  148. # [02:02] <Hixie> yeah
  149. # [02:05] <webben_> Hixie: what happens if you turn on announcements too? does it think there's more than one link there?
  150. # [02:07] * Hixie hunts for announcements
  151. # [02:08] <webben_> Hixie: sorry, that's not necessarily the technical term
  152. # [02:09] <webben_> I just mean where it will say "unvisited link" or whatever before a link
  153. # [02:10] <Hixie> not sure how to enable that, but it does say "visited link" once on that page
  154. # [02:11] <webben_> well at least it only thinks there's one link
  155. # [02:11] <webben_> are you sure you've got the voices different enough that you'd be able to tell the difference?
  156. # [02:11] <Hixie> oh yes
  157. # [02:11] <Hixie> one is male and the other female
  158. # [02:11] <webben_> ah okay
  159. # [02:12] <Hixie> i love the way it reads the first line, too:
  160. # [02:14] <Hixie> "In the following text, only one word left paren the word. Quote elephants quote. Right paren! should be said like a link."
  161. # [02:14] <Hixie> though that depends on the synthesiser
  162. # [02:15] <Hixie> SAPI5 in particular seems to suck.
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  169. # [02:44] <Hixie> weird, it'll read certain sentences differently when it's reading the paragraph vs reading just the sentence
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  175. # [03:04] * othermaciej_ is now known as om_food
  176. # [03:08] <Hixie> second screen reader test case: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/screen-readers/002.html
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  179. # [03:40] <Hixie> i'm amused by the alt text discussion
  180. # [03:40] <Hixie> the arguments are all about whether we should allow alt="" to be omitted
  181. # [03:40] <Hixie> the spec already requires alt=""
  182. # [03:49] <om_food> it does in some cases allow alt to be omitted
  183. # [03:49] * om_food is now known as othermaciej
  184. # [03:49] <othermaciej> "In such cases, the alt attribute may be omitted"
  185. # [03:50] <othermaciej> allowing it to be omitted in some cases means conformance checkers can't report failure whenever it is missing
  186. # [03:50] <othermaciej> which may have some small effect at the margins
  187. # [03:50] <othermaciej> though whether that effect is good or bad is unclear
  188. # [03:51] <Hixie> iirc every case where it says may be omitted is followed by a should-level requirement that it be not omitted
  189. # [03:52] <othermaciej> well yes, it's (almost) always strongly encouraged, but it is not 100% mandated
  190. # [03:53] <othermaciej> I'm thinking that is probably ok, though it does make JAWS give worse-than-usual results in many cases apparently
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  195. # [04:05] <Lachy> Oh no! people are asking for RDFa in HTML :-( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0120.html
  196. # [04:05] <Lachy> (btw, how did that sneak into the charter?)
  197. # [04:07] <Lachy> oh good, it says "whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization ... is for the HTML WG to determine."
  198. # [04:07] <othermaciej> Lachy: it snuck in there is an example
  199. # [04:07] <othermaciej> Lachy: it used to be there as a feature to add
  200. # [04:07] <hober> fortunately, the charter doesn't require support for RDFa, but simply encourages a mechanism to support extension
  201. # [04:07] <othermaciej> "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies *such as* Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents" (emphasis mine)
  202. # [04:08] <hober> yay "such as" :)
  203. # [04:08] <karlUshi> rdfa++
  204. # [04:09] <Lachy> karlUshi, I don't believe RDFa is good for anything, it's way too complex and overengineered
  205. # [04:09] <Hixie> surely not
  206. # [04:09] <Hixie> it uses namespaces, it must be good!
  207. # [04:10] <karlUshi> yes lachy, you put the key thing here "believe"
  208. # [04:10] <Hixie> it also uses RDF, and we all know that Web authors are rushing to author RDF and are only being stopped by lack of support in browsers
  209. # [04:10] <karlUshi> troll fest :) funny
  210. # [04:11] * karlUshi is enjoying relax in a comfortable seat
  211. # [04:11] <othermaciej> RDF stands for RSS Data Format, right?
  212. # [04:11] <Hixie> hah
  213. # [04:11] <karlUshi> othermaciej: you could do better, Really Dat Fucked
  214. # [04:12] * othermaciej is shocked at karlUshi's scandalous language
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  216. # [04:13] <karlUshi> yes I know othermaciej but I'am applying your freedom of expression rule :) I'm just a robot
  217. # [04:13] <Hixie> i'm going to complain to DanC right now!
  218. # [04:13] * Hixie ducks
  219. # [04:13] <karlUshi> you should
  220. # [04:14] <Lachy> oh, it also uses CURIEs. that's even better ;-)
  221. # [04:15] <Hixie> isn't that a measurement of radioactivity
  222. # [04:15] <hober> I'm trying to come up with something sufficiently righteously angry-sounding to say, but am laughing too hard to think of anything.
  223. # [04:15] <karlUshi> Lachy: to see through
  224. # [04:39] <Lachy> hey Hixie, how does your clipboard.cgi script work? Does it just save POSTed data to a text file and then send it back on GET requests?
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  226. # [04:41] <Lachy> Hixie, can I get a copy of it to run on html5.lachy.id.au for my own tools?
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  264. # [08:15] <Hixie> Lachy_: yes
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  273. # [08:49] <Hixie> wow these videos are really interesting
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  275. # [08:51] <othermaciej> what videos?
  276. # [08:52] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0103.html
  277. # [08:53] <othermaciej> ah cool
  278. # [08:53] <othermaciej> yeah, actual user testing
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  280. # [09:02] <Hixie> man this is so interesting
  281. # [09:03] <Hixie> in the first 10 minutes of the table video it seems the biggest problems are with a bug jaws has about colspan/rowspan
  282. # [09:03] <Hixie> also interesting with the budget table is that it's clear that the headers being read out are completely useless
  283. # [09:03] <Hixie> it's not reading the column header
  284. # [09:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, JAWS has pretty significant trouble with thousand separators that are commonplace
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  286. # [09:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, the number handling is appalling in that instance
  287. # [09:07] <Hixie> notice he goes to the horrific configuration UI
  288. # [09:07] <Hixie> and does far better than I (a sighted user) did when I went there!
  289. # [09:08] <Hixie> i think that revenue table (http://www.wisc.edu/about/facts/budget.php#budgetRev) is an example of a table that is badly marked up with headers=""
  290. # [09:08] <Hixie> "source" shouldn't be on the headers="" list for the data cells
  291. # [09:08] <Hixie> and that table uses abbr="" in a really confusing way, too
  292. # [09:09] <Hixie> "amount state revenue source. 151.8 column 2" is not a useful way of showing that data.
  293. # [09:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: what would you do better (apart from striking "source" from the speech)?
  294. # [09:13] <Hixie> "source" is a header for first column, it shouldn't be given as a header for the data cells
  295. # [09:13] <Hixie> headers aren't transitive
  296. # [09:14] <Hixie> arguably the "state revenue" row shouldn't be a header for anything but the first column either
  297. # [09:14] <Hixie> though scope="" can't represent that while still keeping the row table-wide
  298. # [09:14] <Hixie> which is interesting
  299. # [09:15] <hsivonen> with VoiceOver, I found that due to lack of easy documentation and due to the aural UI features being undiscoverable without docs, it is really hard for a person who isn't a routine user to check if something works in a sane way
  300. # [09:15] <Hixie> i think you'd want that first data cell read out as "255.1 millions of dollars, general program appropriations, state revenue"
  301. # [09:16] <Hixie> second cell as "-1.7 percent change from previous year, general program appropriations, state revenue"
  302. # [09:17] <Hixie> though how you decide that the top header comes first, then the left header, then the sub-top header, i dunno
  303. # [09:17] <Hixie> on the next table you'd want it the other way around
  304. # [09:17] <Hixie> second data cell on http://broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/navigating/tide-tables.html you'd want to read out as "1.69 meters, high water, wednesday 5th, september"
  305. # [09:17] <hsivonen> I've only watched the first two videos so far
  306. # [09:18] <hsivonen> and I think they demonstrate that "row" and "column" aren't the real scopes but "right" and "down"
  307. # [09:22] <Hixie> yeah that's basically what html5 does
  308. # [09:23] <Hixie> (though it uses the row/column names)
  309. # [09:23] <Hixie> the federal bank table example is interesting, it's a table that uses scope but that shows jaws7 not supporting it
  310. # [09:23] <Hixie> it also shows that jaws has some heuristics to read out the first column even with no markup for it
  311. # [09:24] <Hixie> woah
  312. # [09:24] <Hixie> the immediate reaction to the first table with summary="" information is "i'm wondering how necessary is that."
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  314. # [09:27] <hsivonen> also, it shows how the insistence on cultural variance in date and number formats is an accessibility problem
  315. # [09:29] <Hixie> yeah
  316. # [09:29] <Hixie> go <time>
  317. # [09:29] <Hixie> not sure what to do about numbers
  318. # [09:29] <Hixie> <n> seems excessive and unlikely to be widely used
  319. # [09:29] <Hixie> i'd rather test the waters with <time> first
  320. # [09:29] <hsivonen> there's no way normal authors who are accustomed to type in Word would stop and mark up their numbers as numbers
  321. # [09:30] <Hixie> yeah
  322. # [09:30] <Hixie> same could be said of dates though
  323. # [09:30] <hsivonen> I suppose having a comma, period or nbsp every three digits could match a heuristic pattern
  324. # [09:31] <Hixie> or apostrophe
  325. # [09:31] <hsivonen> but dealing with non-nbsp regular spaces would be hard
  326. # [09:31] <othermaciej> you could use lang to infer the likely number format
  327. # [09:32] <hsivonen> everything would be so much easier if all nationalistic vive la difference could be put aside here
  328. # [09:32] <othermaciej> or just try to recognize a bunch of widely used number formats
  329. # [09:32] <othermaciej> but I guess some are ambiguous
  330. # [09:32] <othermaciej> 1.001 - is that just over 1, or just over 1000?
  331. # [09:33] <Hixie> you're not going to get france or the uk to change to 1,001 or 1.001 respectively
  332. # [09:33] <Hixie> (or vice versa)
  333. # [09:33] <hsivonen> othermaciej: to some extent yes. but there are a lot of people who use English together with ISO dates, SI units and 24 hour clock for international communications
  334. # [09:33] <hsivonen> (in fact, it annoys me that legacy English date-time stuff comes with the English UI language on many systems)
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  337. # [09:35] <hsivonen> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1968 for instance
  338. # [09:35] <othermaciej> there's also wide disagreement on the right way to do quotation marks but that seems less of a practical problem
  339. # [09:36] <hsivonen> systems would benefit from a U.S. English plus metric/ISO "locale"
  340. # [09:43] * hsivonen sighs at optimism about parsing text/html as XML
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  342. # [09:43] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  343. # [09:43] <hsivonen> back when Netscape decided not to sniff XMLness in text/html in Mozilla, O'Reilly was ill-formed
  344. # [09:44] <Hixie> wow the longdesc="" comments are really interesting too
  345. # [09:44] <hsivonen> good luck with others getting it right if the xml.com folks don't
  346. # [09:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://www.damowmow.com/playground/html-or-xml.html ! :-D
  347. # [09:46] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
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  352. # [10:01] <Lachy> wow, I didn't realise screen readers were sooo bad at reading out numbers!
  353. # [10:02] <Lachy> I would have expected it to read 278,000 as "two hundred and seventy eight thousand", not "two seven eight zero zero zero"
  354. # [10:03] <Whiskey_M> it changes dependent on the screen reader I believe (and version of the software), but in general they aren't great
  355. # [10:04] <Lachy> hmm. I guess. So is it a problem that screen readers should really solve, or do we need a number element? like <n>278,000</n>
  356. # [10:05] <Lachy> I wonder how they handle numbers written using with the use of ',' (separator) and '.' (decimal point) reversed
  357. # [10:06] <hsivonen> is it known how much http://www.nvda-project.org/ sucks/rocks compared to JAWS?
  358. # [10:07] <Lachy> cool, I didn't know there was an open source screen reader available. I wonder how mature it is
  359. # [10:08] <Lachy> well, I guess it's only version 0.5, so probably not very mature
  360. # [10:10] <virtuelv> Lachy: is <n>278,000</n> "two hundred and seventy eight, comma triple-zero" or "two hundred and seventy eight thousand"?
  361. # [10:10] <Hixie> lachy: as far as i can tell that's a jaws bug that the experienced jaws user hadn't seen before
  362. # [10:12] <hsivonen> interestingly, both nvda and orca are written in Python. I wonder if there's any cross-pollination
  363. # [10:12] <Hixie> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/malware_biz.pdf is frightening
  364. # [10:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-205-108.pool.emnet.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  365. # [10:15] <Lachy> virtuelv: it's 278 thousand
  366. # [10:16] <Lachy> there'd need to be a space after the comma (278, 000) if it was two hundred seventy eight, triple zero
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  368. # [10:19] <karlUshi> virtuelv: it depends on your language
  369. # [10:19] <karlUshi> in French comma is the separator
  370. # [10:19] <karlUshi> for decimal
  371. # [10:24] <Lachy> Thanks Hixie, I've now got http://html5.lachy.id.au/clipboard running :-)
  372. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: what is it supposed to do?
  373. # [10:27] <Lachy> that's a clipboard, just like Hixie has for the Live DoM Viewer
  374. # [10:27] <Lachy> POST data to it to save or GET to retrieve
  375. # [10:27] <Lachy> I'm just adding the upload/download scripts to my other tools now
  376. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: the use case is not obvious to me
  377. # [10:30] <Lachy> it makes it easier to save data and then download it again in other browsers or on other computers
  378. # [10:30] <Dashiva> It's a pastebin, basically
  379. # [10:32] <hsivonen> Lachy: does it expect form POSTs or raw entity body POSTs?
  380. # [10:34] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@natbox2.mita.keio.ac.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  381. # [10:34] <Hixie> raw
  382. # [10:38] <Hixie> interesting, the power jaws user in question hadn't come across [D] links
  383. # [10:38] <Lachy> that's not too surprising. I rarely see them myself
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  385. # [10:45] <Hixie> his comments about a long _description_ being useless to him are interesting
  386. # [10:45] <Hixie> (as opposed to a long discussion of the image)
  387. # [10:45] <Hixie> seems to me it would be better to just put the long discussion in the alt="", though.
  388. # [10:46] <Hixie> there's a bug in JAWS' handling of newlines
  389. # [10:46] <Hixie> in attributes
  390. # [10:51] <virtuelv> Lachy: karlUshi was making my point for me. My question was largely a rhetorical one
  391. # [10:51] <Hixie> seems the summary and header_id videos are the same
  392. # [10:51] <Hixie> which is odd
  393. # [10:51] <Hixie> oh well
  394. # [10:51] <Hixie> i really should be in bed 3 hours ago
  395. # [10:51] <Hixie> bbl
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  399. # [11:10] <Lachy> I've now implemented the clipboard scripts in http://html5.lachy.id.au/output and http://html5.lachy.id.au/content-sniffing/ so now you can share data between them easily
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  401. # [11:16] <hsivonen> does someone remember off-hand if HTTP-methods should be compared case-sensitively or insensitively?
  402. # [11:16] <hsivonen> (on the HTTP server when examining incoming requests)
  403. # [11:19] <hsivonen> case-sensitive it is
  404. # [11:19] <Lachy> hsivonen: they're case sensitive and, I believe, all existing methods (GET, POST, etc.) should be uppercase
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  406. # [11:31] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah, thanks
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  408. # [11:43] <hsivonen> is there a best practice for transferring long non-ASCII strings in HTTP headers?
  409. # [11:43] <hsivonen> or should I just steer clear and do something else?
  410. # [11:44] <Lachy> hmm. you could use %-encoding, but that's really only for URIs
  411. # [11:45] <Lachy> what are you trying to do?
  412. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm considering whether I should allow validator parameters as HTTP headers as opposed to query string params in the POST Web service API
  413. # [11:46] <Lachy> what HTTP headers are you trying to use for that?
  414. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: Content-Location for doc=
  415. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: the others would have to be X-Foo-Or-Bar
  416. # [11:47] <hsivonen> the potentially non-ASCII value would be schema IRIs
  417. # [11:48] <Lachy> you might be better off just using a query string
  418. # [11:48] <hsivonen> which I could force to be URIs
  419. # [11:48] <hsivonen> well, let's see if I can get away with query string only
  420. # [11:53] <Lachy> if a query string doesn't meet your needs, you could also try POSTing JSON or XML or something n the request body
  421. # [11:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: that would be much worse
  422. # [11:54] <Lachy> ok
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  428. # [12:23] <hsivonen> aargh. Form-based form upload with the servlet API is ridiculous
  429. # [12:23] <hsivonen> supporting raw entity body POST was super-simple, though
  430. # [12:28] <hsivonen> do browsers guarantee that multipart form submissions contain the fields in the order of the original form?
  431. # [12:28] <Lachy> yes, I think so
  432. # [12:32] <hsivonen> well, on a more positive note, perhaps Java developers will resist the new Web Forms 2.0 submission format less than developers using other languages as even multipart/form-data support isn't part of the platform API
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  473. # [17:00] <Lachy> in Table5.wmv of those usability tests, we were told that the table uses axis="", but he never actually showed how or why that is actually useful for anything
  474. # [17:08] <zcorpan> indeed
  475. # [17:16] <Lachy> I like what the bind man says at the end of Longdesc_IDC.wmv, where he talks about how longdesc can be made more mainstream by making it useful to more people
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  481. # [17:29] <Lachy> the [D] link example didn't look any more difficult for the user than the longdesc attributes did, which is interesting given the claims that it's a problem because it's not explicitly associated with the image
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  485. # [17:42] <Lachy> oh, I spoke too soon. in the BoxModel video, [D] links are explained to him
  486. # [17:48] * gsnedders wonders how to get an email to the majority of major browser vendors regarding HTTP response parsng
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  489. # [18:01] <Lachy> gsnedders: you could ask people you know from each browser vendor to put you in contact with the appropriate people who work on HTTP stuff
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  491. # [18:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: I don't really know anyone who works on either IE or FF, though
  492. # [18:05] <Lachy> gsnedders: maybe try Chris Wilson for IE
  493. # [18:06] <Lachy> and ask Hixie about Mozilla, he may know
  494. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Lachy: yeah, that what's I was thinking I would try — last time I tried Chris I never heard back, though
  495. # [18:08] <zcorpan> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&component=Networking%3A+HTTP&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=ASSIGNED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=exact&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_con
  496. # [18:08] <zcorpan> l2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=
  497. # [18:08] <zcorpan> ...might give a hint about who are working on http in moz
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  499. # [18:08] <gsnedders> ah. true. I'd looked through public bug trackers for what I'm interested in, nothing about it, though
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  529. # [20:14] <Hixie> gsnedders: feel free to mail whatwg@whatwg.org about it if you want to hit browser vendors in general
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  533. # [20:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: thanks
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  547. # [21:13] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/09/svg-open-2007-day-2.html - "SVG as texture for 3D Canvas" - hmm, that's possibly interesting in terms of making 3D applications that don't need to download dozens of megabytes of bitmap textures
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  555. # [22:03] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/3d.html - hmm, Opera 9.5 beats 9.2 quite measurably, but it still seems no browser is adequate at vector/matrix calculations in JavaScript :-(
  556. # [22:04] <Philip`> (That code was originally in a toy language that got compiled to JVM bytecode, which was far faster - I think it did 30fps easily on a slower computer than what I'm using now)
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  568. # [22:58] <jgraham> Hixie?
  569. # [22:58] <Hixie> hey
  570. # [23:00] <jgraham> You pinged. I don't know if I can use the private message thing on freenode without an account
  571. # [23:00] <Hixie> are you on another network?
  572. # [23:00] <Hixie> or jabber/aim/icq/msn?
  573. # [23:00] <annevk> just use irc.w3.org
  574. # [23:00] * jgraham is somewhat communications poor
  575. # [23:01] <virtuelv> jgraham: you need to register on freenode
  576. # [23:02] <jgraham> Hixie: I think anne's suggestion should work
  577. # [23:02] <othermaciej> jgraham: you need to register, or the person you are talking to needs to set up their account to accept privmsgs from unregistered nicks
  578. # [23:02] * jgraham goes to register on freenode
  579. # [23:03] <virtuelv> /msg NickServ help
  580. # [23:03] <virtuelv> ^^ for jgraham
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  585. # [23:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: are you stalking me adding me on Flickr? :P
  586. # [23:48] <gsnedders> jgraham: you're the first person to add me from WHATWG, and I don't think we have any common friends at all :P
  587. # [23:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well if you will put photos on the internet, you can't expect people not to look...
  588. # [23:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: but look for photos by me? :P Twitter or my blog, I assume>?
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  590. # [23:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: most people I've had add me I have explicitly pointed to my Flickr page, or know them well
  591. # [23:50] <jgraham> Er, I think I originally searched for your blog for some reason which I have forgotten.
  592. # [23:50] <gsnedders> heh
  593. # [23:51] <gsnedders> I think the only thing on my blog that links to it is photo of my sister + husband at their wedding
  594. # [23:51] <jgraham> Yeah but you're pretty much unique on google :)
  595. # [23:52] <gsnedders> wait, you mean that everything within the top 50 results being me makes me unique? :)
  596. # [23:53] <gsnedders> It's something absurd like that which is all me
  597. # [23:54] <jgraham> That would fit my definition of "pretty much unique", yeah.
  598. # [23:55] <gsnedders> here we go, result 59 isn't me
  599. # [23:55] * jgraham is cursed/blessed with a much more common name
  600. # [23:55] <gsnedders> I'm not a pilot.
  601. # [23:56] <jgraham> <green-wing>Except on friends reunited</green-wing>
  602. # [23:57] <Lachy> jgraham, in python, what APIs are available for accessing the query string and post data of a request? I've looked at cgi.FieldStorage(), but AFAICT, it's only desiged for accessing name=value pairs and doesn't make it easy to get data in other formats
  603. # [23:57] <gsnedders> 59, and 82 are the only 2 results in the top 150 that aren't me
  604. # [23:58] <jgraham> Lachy: Have you tried httplib2? It's not in the standard-lib but I think it's what you want
  605. # [23:58] <Lachy> ok, I'll look it up
  606. # [23:58] <jgraham> http://code.google.com/p/httplib2/
  607. # [23:59] <Lachy> it seems odd that that stuff isn't build into the language. like in PHP, I can do $_SERVER['QUERY_STRING'], etc. to get the raw data
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  609. # Session Close: Thu Sep 06 00:00:00 2007

The end :)