/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 12 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:10] <Hixie> i'm amused by the arguments that say that x% of pages omit alt attributes, since they seem to forget the x% of pages that do include alt attributes but do so in fundamentally useless or bad ways
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  12. # [00:23] <Philip`> It matters that the x% omitting alt because of lazy/stupid/careless/etc authors is non-zero and non-negligible, because then the 0.00y% that omits alt because their authors conscientiously followed the HTML5 spec (and that has indistinguishable syntax from the first case) will have to be processed with the "lazy/stupid/careless author forgot about alt" semantics, not the "critical part of content" semantics, in order to work in the majority of cases
  13. # [00:47] * zcorpan finds it somewhat ironic that http://blog.whatwg.org/result-format seems to have comments disabled
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  15. # [00:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: was that intentional?
  16. # [00:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no. the admin interface tells me they are enabled
  17. # [00:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: see above. fallout from the upgrade?
  18. # [00:58] <hsivonen> nn
  19. # [00:59] <zcorpan> nn hsivonen
  20. # [01:25] <Hixie> Philip`: i don't really understand what the difference between those two modes would be
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  23. # [01:29] <Hixie> Philip`: nor do i understand why this would be any more of a problem than the UA determining the difference between alt="..." written by morons and alt="..." written usefully
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  25. # [01:56] <Hixie> still no sign of sebastian?
  26. # [02:01] <Philip`> Hixie: When alt was accidentally omitted, the UA can predict there's a good chance it's a decorative image (based on statistics from current content). When an image is explicitly marked as being critical content, there should be a much better chance that it actually is critical content. That can set the initial bias for any heuristics when the UA is trying to decide how to present the image to the user
  27. # [02:02] <Hixie> i'm surprised as to your initial assertion
  28. # [02:02] <Hixie> is that really true?
  29. # [02:02] <Philip`> (The heuristics might be as simple as "if it's got no alt, it's probably decorative, so ignore it" and "if it's marked as important, say "image, press enter for more information"")
  30. # [02:03] <Philip`> I haven't looked at any relevant statistics from current content so I don't really know :-)
  31. # [02:03] <Hixie> ah ok
  32. # [02:03] <Philip`> (Or the heuristics might be some futuristic image analysis thing with a Bayesian classifier or whatever it is)
  33. # [02:03] <Hixie> my guess would be that it isn't true
  34. # [02:03] <Hixie> and that there is no corrolation between lack of alt text and importance of image
  35. # [02:03] <othermaciej> I suspect that images with missing alt show the same statistical distribution of decorative or non-decorative as images that do have alt
  36. # [02:03] <Hixie> right, what maciej said
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  39. # [02:04] <Philip`> If you count the spacer and background images in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/imgs.xhtml then there's quite a lot of decorative ones
  40. # [02:05] <Philip`> but it'd be easy for a UA to just ignore all files called spacer.gif
  41. # [02:05] <Philip`> "quite a lot" isn't very scientific, since I haven't bothered actually counting :-p
  42. # [02:05] <Hixie> most images are spacer gifs according to my surveys
  43. # [02:05] <Hixie> but they don't all have names like spacer.gif
  44. # [02:07] <Hixie> anyway
  45. # [02:07] <Hixie> you can tell if an image is a spacer gif quite easily
  46. # [02:07] <Hixie> it'll be 100% transparent
  47. # [02:07] <Hixie> so that can be one of the heuristics the spec talks about
  48. # [02:08] <gavin_> I'd imagine some people use spacers that are the same color as the background, too?
  49. # [02:08] <Hixie> my point is that i don't see that lack of alt text is any more of a legacy problem we face than is bad alt text
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  51. # [02:10] * Hixie looks
  52. # [02:12] <Hixie> (er, wc)
  53. # [02:12] <jruderman> gavin_: the heuristic could be "all the same color + opacity"
  54. # [02:12] <gavin_> yeah
  55. # [02:12] <gavin_> that just gets a bit more complicated :)
  56. # [02:12] <gavin_> (to implement)
  57. # [02:12] * gavin_ is now known as gavin
  58. # [02:13] <Philip`> They're both problems, but it seems easier to solve the first problem (by identifying intentionally-omitted-alt with some new syntax, so authors can make sure their critical images don't get ignored by incorrect heuristics) than the second problem, and partially solving one problem is usually better than solving none (except when solving that problem takes far too much effort to be worthwhile and distracts from other problems :-) )
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  60. # [02:18] <Hixie> it's not clear to me that it is possible to identify intentionally-omitted-alt from lazily-omitted-alt.
  61. # [02:19] <Hixie> (or from ignorantly-included-alt)
  62. # [02:20] <Hixie> because tools tend to mix all three of those up
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  67. # [02:31] <Philip`> It's not possible to identify them if the syntax for both is <img src=...> with no alt, so it'd need other syntax like <img noalt> or <figure><img></figure> or whatever
  68. # [02:31] <Hixie> i don't understand why the syntax makes things any better
  69. # [02:31] <Philip`> Then they'd still get mixed up and used wrong, but there should be some (imperfect) correlation between images-marked-as-important (with intentionally omitted alt) and images-which-are-important, so UAs can make more accurate guesses - they still have to guess, but they can guess better than with no extra information, and good authors can help their users by making UAs guess in the right direction
  70. # [02:31] <Hixie> what will stop people from using <img noalt> to shut up the validator?
  71. # [02:32] <Hixie> i guess i'm not convinced that it would really improve matters that much
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  73. # [02:33] <hober> I suspect the primary use of @noalt would be to make the validator stop complaining
  74. # [02:34] <Hixie> in particular, i'm not convinced that if we added an <img noalt> or <img missing-alt> attribute, that well-meaning people would be able to tell the difference between <img alt=""> and <img missing-alt> or <img noalt>.
  75. # [02:34] <Hixie> and we would actually end up making it worse -- making images that are critical get explicitly marked as decorative (<img alt="">)
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  79. # [02:47] <Hixie> othermaciej_: any news on the offline storage stuff? i'd like to spec a first draft soon
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  83. # [02:50] <othermaciej_> Hixie: it's high on my todo list for the next few days
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  85. # [02:51] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  86. # [02:51] <othermaciej> I think the basic model seems sound, I just want to think through some of the details (especially with respect to updating)
  87. # [02:53] <othermaciej> Hixie: if you want, I can come by and we can discuss with a whiteboard (maybe aa would be interested as well)
  88. # [02:54] <othermaciej> but I'll try to write up some comments first
  89. # [02:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm very interested in having offline stuff in the spec soon
  90. # [02:54] <Hixie> cool
  91. # [02:55] <Hixie> yeah you're welcome to come over and discuss it
  92. # [02:55] <aa> othermaciej: yes, interested
  93. # [02:56] <othermaciej> Hixie, aa: would you guys be free this Friday around lunchtime and/or early afternoon, perhaps?
  94. # [02:57] <Hixie> friday is a non-starter for me
  95. # [02:57] <Hixie> as is monday
  96. # [02:57] <Hixie> pretty much any other time is ok though
  97. # [02:57] <othermaciej> my other free times are either next week or after 5PM on Thursday
  98. # [02:58] <Hixie> thursday works for me
  99. # [02:58] <Hixie> dunno about aaron
  100. # [02:59] <aa> I was planning on being out thursday
  101. # [02:59] <aa> the gears team was planning on taking a lazy approach to the spec because, well, we are super busy
  102. # [03:00] <aa> but we are interested, we were just going to forego having actual meetings in favor of email
  103. # [03:01] <othermaciej> I don't wanna have lots of meetings (the Safari team is super busy too, pretty much all the time) but it seems like one small one might help
  104. # [03:01] <othermaciej> ok then how about I'll send comments in email and we can sync up in person next week if we have time and think it's useful
  105. # [03:01] <Hixie> sure
  106. # [03:01] <aa> next week would be better for me
  107. # [03:01] <KevinMarks> There's a Google open house thursday night, so you may find the place crowded
  108. # [03:01] <aa> i have some comments i need to send to and i think michael nordman is going to send some too
  109. # [03:02] <Hixie> KevinMarks: that won't be an issue
  110. # [03:02] <aa> send too*
  111. # [03:02] <Hixie> k
  112. # [03:02] <Hixie> i encourage y'all to send comments soon, i want to have this wrapped up by the end of the month lest i miss my quarterly OKRs ;-)
  113. # [03:02] <aa> wrapped up, as in, a recommendation?
  114. # [03:03] <Hixie> wrapped up as in the people implementing this (you, webkit, mozilla) can go ahead and implement a first draft and give implementation feedback
  115. # [03:03] <Hixie> wrapped up the way that, say, canvas is
  116. # [03:03] <Hixie> (well maybe not quite that far)
  117. # [03:04] <aa> that is a little faster pace than we were anticipating.
  118. # [03:05] <aa> i guess you can go ahead and do that, but I'm not sure how much useful feedback we can give that quickly.
  119. # [03:08] <Hixie> k
  120. # [03:08] <othermaciej> yes, I'd also like the spec to be ready enough for preliminary implementation on something like that time scale, though it doesn't have to be final
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  123. # [03:30] <Hixie> nothing's ever final really
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  130. # [04:42] <Lachy> I fixed the comments on the blog for now
  131. # [04:42] <Lachy> but now I need to find a new comment preview plugin that actually works
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  138. # [05:09] <Lachy> I added a working preview plugin to the blog :-)
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  167. # [09:40] <krijnh> Lachy: You're the only one with green lines ;)
  168. # [09:40] <Lachy> really?
  169. # [09:40] <krijnh> Jep
  170. # [09:41] <Lachy> I see, others get grey text
  171. # [09:41] <krijnh> :)
  172. # [09:41] <krijnh> You wanted lime!
  173. # [09:42] <Lachy> I don't like the grey text though. Can I get mediumspringgreen with black text?
  174. # [09:42] <Lachy> or make it customisable, store the prefs in a cookie
  175. # [09:45] <Lachy> after the user submits their name, you need to respond with a 303 See Other response to redirect the user. That way, going back doesn't do another POST request
  176. # [09:46] <krijnh> Lachy: Done
  177. # [09:46] <krijnh> Hmm, that's new for me..
  178. # [09:47] <krijnh> And I use Opera, so I never get that message anyway
  179. # [09:47] <krijnh> Do you have some docs on that 303 thing?
  180. # [09:47] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/#styling
  181. # [09:47] <Lachy> using PHP?
  182. # [09:47] <krijnh> Yeah
  183. # [09:49] <Lachy> header("Location: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/", true, 303); should work
  184. # [09:49] <krijnh> Doh
  185. # [09:49] <krijnh> I'll just google for an article :)
  186. # [09:49] <Lachy> or http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.http-redirect.php if you have PECL available
  187. # [09:50] <Lachy> http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.header.php
  188. # [09:50] <krijnh> Yeah, I know how to use header()
  189. # [09:50] <krijnh> Just wanted to know some more about that 303 response :)
  190. # [09:50] <Lachy> RFC 2616
  191. # [09:54] <Lachy> cool, it allows me to inject whatever styles I want for the whole page :-)
  192. # [09:56] <krijnh> Yeah :)
  193. # [09:56] <hsivonen> including JavaScript via XBL or HTC or expression() ?
  194. # [09:56] <krijnh> Probably
  195. # [09:57] <krijnh> Only htmlspecialchar'ed() the stuff
  196. # [09:57] <krijnh> 'ed()..
  197. # [09:57] <krijnh> Ke
  198. # [09:57] <krijnh> Remove it? ;]
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  201. # [09:58] <Lachy> it doesn't really matter that much, since the injected code can only affect the individual user
  202. # [09:58] <krijnh> It can probably be used to spam the 'flag this line' functionality
  203. # [09:59] <krijnh> To make XHR requests
  204. # [09:59] <krijnh> But that can be done already
  205. # [09:59] <Lachy> krijnh, how?
  206. # [10:01] <krijnh> $('li span').click() in jQuery :)
  207. # [10:10] * Parts: moeffju (i=moeffju@ubermutant.net)
  208. # [10:15] <krijnh> And comma separated nicknames also work now
  209. # [10:19] <krijnh> Philip`: Especially for you ;)
  210. # [10:26] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Apple goes to great lengths on its site to present text as images without the <img> element in the DOM
  211. # [10:27] <hsivonen> Yet, in VoiceOver, the user experience is as good with <a href='...'><img alt='foo'></a> is it is with <a href='...'>foo</a> plus elaborate CSS hacks
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  215. # [10:43] * krijnh tests
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  218. # [10:45] <othermaciej> hsivonen: examples?
  219. # [10:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the top navigation bar and the linked big iPod images read the same way (announced as links--nothing said about them also being images)
  220. # [10:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the top bar appears to be an elaborate CSS image replacement hack
  221. # [10:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the iPods in the center are normal image links
  222. # [10:49] <krijnh> zcorpan: "<zcorpan> krijnh: would be nice to pick up on /me lines also :)" - done
  223. # [10:50] <zcorpan> krijnh: nice :)
  224. # [10:50] <othermaciej> but there's text for the links?
  225. # [10:50] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes
  226. # [10:50] <hsivonen> hmm. it might be that the motivation behind the CSS stuff is doing hovers
  227. # [10:55] * Lachy just testing if this line gets highlighted in the logs
  228. # [10:56] <Lachy> cool, it works :-)
  229. # [10:57] <Lachy> krijnh, did you start filtering out '}' characters from the styles?
  230. # [10:57] <krijnh> O:)
  231. # [10:57] <krijnh> Btw
  232. # [10:57] <krijnh> "cool, it works :-)" <-- that would make _re="cool"
  233. # [10:57] <krijnh> I don't think that's cool
  234. # [10:58] <Lachy> well, you need better logic to check that the matched word is actually a user's name
  235. # [10:58] <krijnh> And how to do that
  236. # [10:58] <krijnh> Could compare previous lines
  237. # [10:59] <krijnh> But sometimes you just scream: foo: do this or that, expecting foo to read the logs and then react
  238. # [10:59] <Lachy> save a list of names from the <name> regex and then compare
  239. # [10:59] <krijnh> Even if foo isn't on the channel
  240. # [10:59] <krijnh> I was thinking of making a list of recent stuff said to you on the homepage
  241. # [11:00] <krijnh> Ow, wait, I need a use case first :)
  242. # [11:01] <Lachy> krijnh, that would be useful, because then we could send messages to people even when they're not logged in and they'll get them later
  243. # [11:01] <krijnh> Indeed
  244. # [11:01] <krijnh> I could use the nicknames in the box on the homepage
  245. # [11:05] <krijnh> There's an average of 3.1 important line per logfile btw :p
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  249. # [11:15] <krijnh> Lachy, zcorpan, others, hit the save button for nicks on the homepage please :)
  250. # [11:16] <krijnh> Lachy: ty
  251. # [11:16] <Lachy> krijnh, are you keeping a list of users who register their nicks?
  252. # [11:16] <krijnh> Lachy: I am now, yes
  253. # [11:16] <Lachy> for the re_="" field?
  254. # [11:16] <krijnh> Yes
  255. # [11:17] <Lachy> can't you allow me to inject my own styles for the rest of the page any more?
  256. # [11:17] <krijnh> User stylesheets :)
  257. # [11:17] <Lachy> don't filter out }
  258. # [11:17] <krijnh> Keke, you win :)
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  260. # [11:18] <Lachy> I suppose I could use a user stylesheet, but I'm lazy
  261. # [11:18] <krijnh> zcorpan: thanks :)
  262. # [11:18] <Lachy> thanks krijnh
  263. # [11:18] <krijnh> Now onto the fluffy stuff
  264. # [11:19] <krijnh> Howdy Hixie :]
  265. # [11:19] <Lachy> krijnh, I added Hixie
  266. # [11:20] <krijnh> Ow, hehe
  267. # [11:20] <krijnh> Why would you do that? :)
  268. # [11:20] <Lachy> I wanted to test out comma separated nicks
  269. # [11:20] <krijnh> Ah
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  272. # [11:22] <Lachy> oh, when did you add the montly archive lists?
  273. # [11:23] <krijnh> While ago, anne came up with the idea
  274. # [11:23] <Lachy> ah, I never noticed :-)
  275. # [11:23] <krijnh> The homepage got a bit huge :)
  276. # [11:24] <krijnh> Lachy: test
  277. # [11:24] <krijnh> Lachy, test
  278. # [11:24] <krijnh> Lachy; test
  279. # [11:24] <krijnh> (This was bad for you ego)
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  282. # [11:27] <zcorpan> does it matter that "cool, it works" generates _re="cool"?
  283. # [11:28] <krijnh> Sure
  284. # [11:29] <krijnh> Yeah
  285. # [11:29] <krijnh> <li id="l-277" _a="krijnh" _r="Lachy"><a href="#l-277">#</a> [11:24] &lt;krijnh&gt; Lachy, test <span> </span></li>
  286. # [11:29] <krijnh> \o/
  287. # [11:29] <krijnh> cool: test
  288. # [11:29] <krijnh> zcorpan: test
  289. # [11:29] <Lachy> krijnh, are nicks compared case insensitively?
  290. # [11:29] <krijnh> lachy: don't know
  291. # [11:30] <zcorpan> lachy: test
  292. # [11:30] <krijnh> No
  293. # [11:30] <krijnh> And now, yes
  294. # [11:31] <krijnh> People should not add cool as a nickname ;)
  295. # [11:31] * Quits: yod (n=ot@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net) ("Leaving")
  296. # [11:31] * zcorpan is now known as cool
  297. # [11:31] <krijnh> (zcorpan: just removed cool from the db)
  298. # [11:31] <Lachy> hey! That's why it's not working any more :-(
  299. # [11:32] <krijnh> :)
  300. # [11:32] <cool> can we get some default styling for the _r ?
  301. # [11:32] * cool is now known as zcorpan
  302. # [11:32] <krijnh> cool, Cool! Ideas?
  303. # [11:34] <zcorpan> well, bold works for me, although it might look ugly in some other fonts
  304. # [11:36] <krijnh> Same problem with _a styling
  305. # [11:39] <krijnh> There
  306. # [11:40] <Lachy> krijnh, I need you to stripslashes from styles so I can change set: font-family: "Lucida Console"; and use ENT_NOQUOTES
  307. # [11:41] <hsivonen> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200709/can_the_alt_attribute_be_omitted_without_hurting_accessibility/#comment43
  308. # [11:41] <hsivonen> the comments on that blog page are sad
  309. # [11:41] <krijnh> Lachy: refresh ?
  310. # [11:43] <Lachy> krijnh, it's outputting ol { font-family: \"Lucida Console\", monospace; } for my custom styles
  311. # [11:43] <Lachy> that's why I need stripslashes()
  312. # [11:43] <Lachy> in fact, magic quotes should be turned off completely
  313. # [11:44] <krijnh> I did stripslashes()
  314. # [11:44] <krijnh> Lachy: agreed, but can't do it anymore on this machine
  315. # [11:45] <othermaciej> hsivonen: weird comment
  316. # [11:45] <Lachy> well, here's my custom styles: background: lemonchiffon; color: black; } ol { font-family: "Lucida Console", monospace;
  317. # [11:46] <Lachy> it's still outputting the slashes for that
  318. # [11:46] <krijnh> Yeah
  319. # [11:46] <krijnh> I see
  320. # [11:46] <krijnh> Weird
  321. # [11:46] <krijnh> Ah, it's double slashed :/
  322. # [11:47] <krijnh> It's probably saved with slashes in your cookie :)
  323. # [11:47] <Lachy> yeah, because you're not calling stripslashes when you set the cookie
  324. # [11:47] <krijnh> Indeed
  325. # [11:48] <krijnh> Am now, working
  326. # [11:48] <krijnh> Resave your settings
  327. # [11:49] <Lachy> that works
  328. # [11:58] <krijnh> And with all this user generated content
  329. # [11:58] <krijnh> There's now a Web2.0 logo
  330. # [12:01] <krijnh> Gonna make that list with recent lines for a user some other day :)
  331. # [12:02] <Lachy> krijnh, web 2.0 logos need to be BIG!
  332. # [12:02] <krijnh> Lachy: I know, but I don't want it to take up too much space
  333. # [12:03] <Lachy> make it a splash screen :-)
  334. # [12:03] <krijnh> :p
  335. # [12:05] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if I should sanitize characters in JSON output in an XML-compatible way to help client avoid shooting themselves in the foot
  336. # [12:08] <Lachy> hsivonen, which characters?
  337. # [12:09] <Lachy> hsivonen, is it possible to test out the json format yet?
  338. # [12:10] <Lachy> hsivonen, I don't think "400 Unsupported+output+format" is a conforming HTTP status code
  339. # [12:11] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
  340. # [12:11] <Lachy> "400 Bad Request" should be appropriate
  341. # [12:14] <Lachy> hmm. I didn't realise RFC 2616 said "The reason phrases listed here are only recommendations -- they MAY be replaced by local equivalents without affecting the protocol."
  342. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: ASCII controls, U+FFFF and whatever else XML bans
  343. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: not testable yet.
  344. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: this is 1) spec, 2) solicit feedback, 3) respec, 4) implement
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  350. # [14:13] <Lachy> http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/access/ThePriceOfOmittingTheAlt
  351. # [14:13] <annevk> that's a nice article
  352. # [14:15] <annevk> the only thing that's a bit unclear is that he doesn't provide context for your quote, but maybe that's hidden because my browser (like most) doesn't expose <blockquote cite>
  353. # [14:15] * annevk looks
  354. # [14:15] <annevk> ah, indeed, it's from http://blog.whatwg.org/omit-alt
  355. # [14:17] <hsivonen> /http://www.splintered.co.uk/documents/presentations/psf_accessibility_08.08.2007/
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  362. # [15:11] <hsivonen> do current browsers load scripts with HTTP content-type application/javascript
  363. # [15:11] <hsivonen> ?
  364. # [15:13] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_JSON_Output
  365. # [15:17] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stuff/javascript/mime-types/
  366. # [15:17] <krijnh> hsivonen: is that helpful?
  367. # [15:18] <hsivonen> krijnh: yes, but not exactly what I'm looking for
  368. # [15:18] <hsivonen> krijnh: you test the type attribute
  369. # [15:19] <hsivonen> krijnh: I'm interested in HTTP content-type
  370. # [15:19] <krijnh> Doh, sorry
  371. # [15:19] <Lachy> hsivonen, IIRC, Firefox understands <script type=application/javascript>
  372. # [15:19] <Lachy> but if you want the MIME for JSON, it's application/json
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  374. # [15:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm trying to figure out the Right Thing for the callback case HTTP-wise
  375. # [15:20] <Lachy> I don't understand what you mean
  376. # [15:21] <hsivonen> Lachy: there's a non-quite-JSON design pattern of allowing a callback function name as a get parameter and wrapping the JSON stuff in a function call to a function of that name
  377. # [15:22] <Lachy> ah
  378. # [15:22] <hsivonen> callbackName({JSON-stuff})
  379. # [15:22] <hsivonen> so the result is JS not JSON
  380. # [15:23] <Lachy> in that case, I think application/javascript would be the correct Content-Type to specify in HTTP. In practice, browsers ignore that anyway for <script> elements
  381. # [15:24] <krijnh> text/html works as well :)
  382. # [15:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok. I just wanted to check that it doesn't confuse IE
  383. # [15:25] <hsivonen> well, then. Next item: back end support for showing source code and extracts
  384. # [15:25] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
  385. # [15:28] <Philip`> You can send text/vbscript to IE and it happily executes it as JavaScript
  386. # [15:30] <hsivonen> ok
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  389. # [16:10] <annevk> hsivonen, maybe update the blog post too?
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  398. # [17:07] <hsivonen> annevk: done
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  400. # [17:12] * annevk thinks that describing the Rorschach ink test (with alt=) might defeat the purpose of the test
  401. # [17:12] <gavin> heh
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  421. # [18:54] <ROBOd> hello guys
  422. # [18:54] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8b22754e52fd3f17)
  423. # [18:54] <ROBOd> i got to the 4.1. Browsing contexts section of the HTML 5 spec ( http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-windows.html )
  424. # [18:55] <annevk> hi
  425. # [18:55] <ROBOd> hi annevk
  426. # [18:55] <annevk> btw, why would you use <select> for navigation?
  427. # [18:55] <ROBOd> (i was going to talk about Views, hehe)
  428. # [18:56] <Dashiva> annevk: It's a common practice for forums and such
  429. # [18:56] <ROBOd> i have used until thing like <form> <label>Go to page <select>....</select></label> <input type=submit> </label>
  430. # [18:57] <ROBOd> *until now (at least)
  431. # [18:57] <ROBOd> of course, i had something like onchange=this.form.submit() for the select
  432. # [18:58] <annevk> Dashiva, sure, seems better to have them change to <menu> though in due course
  433. # [18:58] <ROBOd> menu will be just another way to do this - i'd say it shouldn't be the *only* way
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  435. # [18:58] <annevk> hmm, I'm generally in favor of less options
  436. # [18:58] <ROBOd> annevk: i don't say that's not true - it really depends how UAs will implement <menu>
  437. # [18:58] <ROBOd> if it sucks, web devs won't use it
  438. # [18:59] <ROBOd> now, back to my Views-related question(s)
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  440. # [19:00] <ROBOd> first, i understand the concept that a Document (a single DOM) can have multiple views: the Visual view - what we see in the browser, the Speech view - the supposed view in Opera's X+V implementation, the Print View - the supposed view in UAs which have an option to print a document
  441. # [19:01] <Dashiva> annevk: How exactly, though? None of the menu modes seem to be very similar to a select
  442. # [19:01] <ROBOd> Dashiva: indeed - if they will render as a menu, we will still want to use <select> in some cases
  443. # [19:01] <annevk> Dashiva, I believe you just wrap your <select> inside <menu>
  444. # [19:02] <ROBOd> annevk: that's a semantic exaggeration :)
  445. # [19:02] <annevk> Dashiva, not entirely sure how an example would look like though
  446. # [19:02] <ROBOd> annevk: i would not wrap selects in menus - unless given a good reason
  447. # [19:02] <annevk> ROBOd, it's for fallback
  448. # [19:02] <Dashiva> annevk: I mean presentation-wise
  449. # [19:02] <ROBOd> annevk: obviously
  450. # [19:04] <ROBOd> back again to views: is there any document explaining DOM 3 Views?
  451. # [19:04] <ROBOd> it's waay to abstract - and I don't know if any major UA implements this (Opera, Gecko, Safari)
  452. # [19:05] <ROBOd> *Safari, make that WebKit
  453. # [19:06] <Dashiva> It looks more like java than javascript :)
  454. # [19:09] <annevk> I'm not sure what will happen to Views
  455. # [19:09] <ROBOd> hmm, views is an interesting concept - it should be properly defined
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  458. # [19:09] <annevk> so far nobody has been really interested in implementing it
  459. # [19:10] <ROBOd> i'd imagine a "world" in which you can create new views with JS, in the UA, each view having any combination of stylesheets enabled/disabled
  460. # [19:10] <annevk> there's already an alternate style sheet api
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  462. # [19:10] <ROBOd> as such, allowing the JS to check in each view the computed style (for example)
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  464. # [19:10] <ROBOd> annevk: simultaneously? i haven't got to that, yet
  465. # [19:11] <ROBOd> annevk: also, can we instantiate the view, so the user gets to see both renders in the same time?
  466. # [19:11] <ROBOd> with a semi-shared DOM
  467. # [19:12] <annevk> as I said, nobody is really interested in implementing views
  468. # [19:12] <annevk> (it seems, anyway)
  469. # [19:12] <ROBOd> semi-shared because i'd like to check computed styles in both views in the same time - yet if the user changes the value of an input, both DOMs (and views) would be automatically updated
  470. # [19:13] <Dashiva> I don't really see the benefit, the use case seems so obscure
  471. # [19:13] <ROBOd> Dashiva: well ... the beneift for what I said is ... hard to figure out
  472. # [19:14] <annevk> i agree with Dashiva
  473. # [19:15] <ROBOd> the concept of views came in to life because multiple views of the same document do exist
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  475. # [19:15] <annevk> in theory
  476. # [19:17] <ROBOd> not only
  477. # [19:17] <Dashiva> Can't you emulate it using mutation events anyhow?
  478. # [19:18] <ROBOd> as I understand Gecko has at least two internal representations of the same document, one for rendering (a "DOM of rendering"), and the actual DOM (what we call DOM)
  479. # [19:18] <ROBOd> internally, Gecko can reference both representations of the document
  480. # [19:18] <annevk> that has not much to do with views
  481. # [19:19] <annevk> that's simply a layout and document tree
  482. # [19:19] <ROBOd> it's a view as well - but not a rendered view
  483. # [19:19] * annevk assumes most implements have that as CSS more or less requires it
  484. # [19:19] <Dashiva> No, that's more like two models and one view
  485. # [19:21] <ROBOd> thing is, if say, you'd be able to create two separate views (one for print, and the other for speech), you might want to make some adjustments for each, individually
  486. # [19:22] <ROBOd> modifying the actual DOM of the view
  487. # [19:22] <annevk> I think we're all aware of the potential things you can do
  488. # [19:22] <annevk> I don't think we all agree that the additional feature is worth the complexity and cost, etc.
  489. # [19:23] <ROBOd> but no implementation is available
  490. # [19:23] <annevk> my point exactly
  491. # [19:24] <ROBOd> i'm not saying the additional feature is worth the complexity and cost
  492. # [19:26] <annevk> in unrelated news: attribute value dependent parsing... boo
  493. # [19:27] <annevk> (otoh, we already have <plaintext>)
  494. # [19:33] * SavageX_ is now known as maikmerten_
  495. # [19:34] <Hixie> Lachy: yt? i broke the wiki :-(
  496. # [19:34] <annevk> oops
  497. # [19:34] <Hixie> (i was upgrading it)
  498. # [19:41] <annevk> given he's around +10 I think he might be sleeping now
  499. # [19:55] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-d391e355.022-154-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  500. # [19:56] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  501. # [19:57] * hsivonen uses open browser windows to make backup of wiki-resident specs
  502. # [19:58] <ROBOd> no backups before trying to upgrade?
  503. # [20:00] * Joins: Ducki__ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b98052.pool.mediaWays.net)
  504. # [20:02] <hsivonen> ROBOd: I didn't have backups. I don't know about Hixie.
  505. # [20:05] <Philip`> Maybe Google has backups
  506. # [20:06] <ROBOd> hsivonen: where's the wiki hosted? wiki.whatwg.org ? on dreamhost?
  507. # [20:07] <annevk> yup
  508. # [20:09] <ROBOd> if it's dreamhost they have automatic backups, snapshots
  509. # [20:09] <ROBOd> on any type of hosting. does whatwg use shared or dedicated hosting?
  510. # [20:10] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  511. # [20:10] <annevk> Hixie would know that
  512. # [20:10] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.154)
  513. # [20:10] <ROBOd> they have no automatic backups, afaik, for the databases, only for the files on the server
  514. # [20:11] <ROBOd> still, it's easy to setup a cronjob, with a simple command for dumping a database to a file, daily
  515. # [20:12] <annevk> I don't believe that's the problem though
  516. # [20:17] * Quits: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d3.pool.mediaWays.net) (No route to host)
  517. # [20:18] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-a1a62636d2990a9b) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  518. # [20:18] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-df5f9ed4dce82a47)
  519. # [20:23] <Hixie> i'm sure the database is fine
  520. # [20:23] <Hixie> it probably just doesn't know how to handle the plugins we have
  521. # [20:28] * Joins: weinig_ (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-2eec8ad69eb991bb)
  522. # [20:29] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-df5f9ed4dce82a47) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  523. # [20:42] <Hixie> sigh
  524. # [20:42] <Hixie> i reallly reallllly wanted to not make the parser dependent on attributes
  525. # [20:43] <annevk> i was wondering if form.elements could be populated during tokenization
  526. # [20:43] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8b22754e52fd3f17) ("The computer fell asleep")
  527. # [20:43] <annevk> but that doesn't really work as at that point you don't have dom nodes yet
  528. # [20:44] <zcorpan> are there pages that use <input> other than hidden in tables? (probably)
  529. # [20:45] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  530. # [20:45] * zcorpan was thinking about allowing all <input>s in tables
  531. # [20:46] <annevk> yes, otherwise we would not have the issue
  532. # [20:47] <Hixie> we can't allow anything else, it would screw up the table
  533. # [20:47] <Hixie> <input type=hidden> is ok because it's display:none
  534. # [20:47] <annevk> Hixie, in the end, the big deal with the HTML parser is that it's documented :)
  535. # [20:47] <Hixie> IE's attribute-dependent parsing for <object> and that sucks
  536. # [20:48] <annevk> oh, you're thinking of doing more quirks if you go this way anyway?
  537. # [20:49] <Hixie> i'm thinking people will point to this and ask for more
  538. # [20:49] <annevk> not unrealistic
  539. # [20:50] <jgraham> if it's going to be implemented by the browsers anyway we may as well include it
  540. # [20:51] <Hixie> yeah the browser vendors didn't like my proposed alternatives so much
  541. # [20:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: it would, but if no-one does it, it doesn't matter... :) although, as i said, people probably have non-hidden <input>s in tables
  542. # [20:52] <Hixie> zcorpan: my point is that we can't solve that problem by changing the parser. the change only works for <input type=hidden>
  543. # [20:52] * Joins: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-b1ab2ce2c0add6b1)
  544. # [20:53] <Hixie> the other question is whether to actually make <input type=hidden> conforming there, or just make it a parser hack that is non-compliant
  545. # [20:53] <Hixie> i think non-compliant is probably best.
  546. # [20:53] <zcorpan> yeah
  547. # [20:54] <zcorpan> though perhaps doesn't need to be a parse error
  548. # [20:54] <hsivonen> aargh. Feisty ships with AddDefaultCharset UTF-8
  549. # [20:54] * hsivonen expect sniffing trouble down the road
  550. # [20:54] <Hixie> christ
  551. # [20:56] <Hixie> k, bbl
  552. # [20:56] <annevk> doesn't need to be a parse error
  553. # [20:56] <annevk> or maybe, because it's so ugly :)
  554. # [20:57] <annevk> "You enter the realms of attribute-value dependent parsing. Beware! Continue? [Y]"
  555. # [20:57] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  556. # [20:58] <zcorpan> so what requests can we expect because of this change?
  557. # [20:58] <zcorpan> allow forms and hidden inputs in head?
  558. # [20:59] <annevk> not sure about the former
  559. # [20:59] <annevk> apparently <object> is attribute dependent
  560. # [21:00] <zcorpan> in browsers other than ie?
  561. # [21:00] <zcorpan> (ie allows forms and hidden inputs in head)
  562. # [21:01] <annevk> don't think so
  563. # [21:04] <zcorpan> ie doesn't support changing the .type of an input dynamically to or from hidden
  564. # [21:05] <annevk> maybe it's represented by a different interface altogether?
  565. # [21:07] <annevk> ROBOd, no need to reraise issues on public-html
  566. # [21:08] <ROBOd> annevk: i was just thinking of that, but ... what should I reply to the guy asking?
  567. # [21:08] <annevk> ROBOd, dunno, just in case you were planning to do the same for other issues ;)
  568. # [21:09] <annevk> ROBOd, see http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ for a list of open issues; emails is part of it
  569. # [21:09] <ROBOd> for example? :D
  570. # [21:09] <ROBOd> ah, i forgot about the issues page, sorry
  571. # [21:10] <ROBOd> as you might have noticed, i don't contribute daily, i'm not among *the* most active contributors. i only follow the mailing-list and I contribute when time allows me
  572. # [21:11] <ROBOd> as for the input type=emails issue... that wasn't planned at all - i just mentioned it as being one suggestion which would be welcome to be applied to the WF2-spec once it's folded into HTML 5
  573. # [21:14] <annevk> no worries
  574. # [21:15] <ROBOd> thanks :)
  575. # [21:16] * Joins: aaron (n=chatzill@c-66-31-86-217.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  576. # [21:30] <ROBOd> i have a question about "the list of added properties": http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-the-default0.html#list-of2
  577. # [21:31] <ROBOd> does that refer to the global properties added to the window object by scripts executing in the global scope?
  578. # [21:31] <ROBOd> e.g. var myName = 'myValue';
  579. # [21:32] <ROBOd> also, does this include things like document.myName = 'myValue'; as well? or just window.myStuff ?
  580. # [21:32] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@modemcable168.84-81-70.mc.videotron.ca)
  581. # [21:33] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@c-66-31-86-217.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  582. # [21:33] <ROBOd> last, but not least, if the answer is positive: then ... is the UA supposed to be able to (re)store "complex" properties like window.myStuff = function () { ... }; ?
  583. # [21:35] <ROBOd> hmm.. writing an email
  584. # [21:38] <annevk> I suppose it's something like that, yes
  585. # [21:38] <Philip`> krijnh: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'s logo's alt text isn't an equivalent replacement of the image, since it doesn't get across the web-two-point-ohyness of the logo
  586. # [21:38] <ROBOd> annevk: still writing an email, because i think there's an interesting discussion about this
  587. # [21:39] <ROBOd> annevk: in relation to another part of the spec (session history)
  588. # [21:39] <Philip`> I expect it should be alt="HTML5 IRC Logsr (beta!)" or similar
  589. # [21:39] * Quits: weinig_ (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-2eec8ad69eb991bb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  590. # [21:39] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-fe8fc5188c2b70a5)
  591. # [21:40] * annevk would argue the image is a worse replacement
  592. # [21:40] <annevk> s/worse replacement/bad replacement for the text/
  593. # [21:41] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  594. # [21:41] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Leaving")
  595. # [21:45] <Philip`> I suppose you should also add longdesc='data:text/plain,The words "HTML5 IRC Logs" in blue followed by a red "r", in parody of the Flickr logo, with a yellow star containing "BETA" and a faint mirrored image below, clearly created by a generic Web 2.0 logo generator tool.' else some people will miss the subtleties, but maybe that's just way too much effort :-(
  596. # [21:46] * annevk is done with the table debate
  597. # [21:46] <Philip`> On the other hand, the generic logo generator tool could generate the generic longdesc too
  598. # [21:46] <annevk> if anyone wishes to continue the debate, have fun
  599. # [21:46] * jgraham wonders how Leif expects to unambiguously determine what constitutes "bug free" when the HTML4 spec is loose enough to let not just bugs but also many larger species of animal through
  600. # [21:47] <annevk> yeah, whatever
  601. # [21:47] <annevk> feels like it's going nowhere
  602. # [21:51] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@La5f3.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  603. # [21:53] <Philip`> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/local/web/guidelines/basichtml.html - '<hr/ width="50%" size="5">' in a guide on "Basic HTML tags" - I think they've got quite confused by XHTML
  604. # [21:53] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  605. # [21:55] <jgraham> Philip`: Next time someone brings up the "dumb authors" thing maybe pointing out that CS departments get it wrong will be interesting
  606. # [21:56] <jgraham> (where "interesting" means "fun to see what arguments are presented")
  607. # [21:57] <hsivonen> HTML isn't CS. it is multimedia. :-)
  608. # [21:58] <annevk> I wonder what I've done wrong though, Leif seems so offensive
  609. # [22:03] <annevk> it's also nice how they nest lists
  610. # [22:03] <annevk> or not
  611. # [22:04] <Philip`> It seems unfortunate that http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/local/web/ucampas/ inserts a comment before the doctype and makes IE6 do quirks
  612. # [22:06] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-c8b1532c304121c5)
  613. # [22:06] <annevk> through that uni website I found http://www.rewritables.net/htmltagchart.htm
  614. # [22:07] * annevk stops reading to avoid getting dragged into '95 markup advocacy
  615. # [22:07] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-fe8fc5188c2b70a5) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  616. # [22:07] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-bb367072cc9a2ace)
  617. # [22:12] * Philip` wonders how hard the ucampas tool tries to produce well-formed XML, and whether he could convince the author to output HTML instead, because it's fun to argue against XHTML
  618. # [22:12] <Lachy> I'll have to upgrade the wiki manually
  619. # [22:13] <Lachy> I restored the previous version for now
  620. # [22:15] * Quits: Ducki__ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b98052.pool.mediaWays.net) (No route to host)
  621. # [22:16] <jgraham> Philip`: I have a feeling that the university house style is "XHTML"
  622. # [22:16] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.110.23)
  623. # [22:17] * Quits: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-b1ab2ce2c0add6b1) (Nick collision from services.)
  624. # [22:17] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  625. # [22:19] <jgraham> Aha here we go, from http://www.cam.ac.uk/cambuniv/webstyle/tech.html "The University webstyle templates (http://www.cam.ac.uk/cambuniv/webstyle/) are valid xhtml - the DTD at the top of the file declares the level of xhtml that the code is written to"
  626. # [22:19] <annevk> that's slightly better than what we have: http://www.cs.uu.nl/docs/vakken/cmc/
  627. # [22:20] <annevk> maybe not: http://www.cs.uu.nl/
  628. # [22:20] <annevk> (the site is horrible though)
  629. # [22:26] <Philip`> jgraham: Hmm, I've got no idea how strict they are on that style - the ucampas tool seems to be only used for cl.cam.ac.uk, and everywhere else does their own different thing, so maybe they're happy with anything that just looks consistent on the outside
  630. # [22:27] <jgraham> Philip`: Not strict at all; look at http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk (but only if you can stomach really bad design)
  631. # [22:27] <annevk> rubyonrails-core group on (X)HTML: http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core/browse_thread/thread/a1188ff42cd3fb59
  632. # [22:28] <annevk> (bottom)
  633. # [22:30] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  634. # [22:30] <Philip`> http://web.archive.org/web/20060925113302/http://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/ - hooray for frames
  635. # [22:31] <Philip`> (Sadly they've changed to the standard style now)
  636. # [22:31] <annevk> don't need archive.org for that: http://www.cs.uu.nl/education/
  637. # [22:34] <jgraham> annevk: I assume you just linked to the rails thread because you are described as "standards uber-geek Anne Van Kesteren" ;)
  638. # [22:34] <annevk> yeah, that's real flattering
  639. # [22:35] <annevk> (I found the link after I found a blogspot site which seems to aggregate the feed searching for html5 on blogsearch.google.com)
  640. # [22:35] <markp> sigh
  641. # [22:35] <markp> same argument we had in habari-dev a few months back
  642. # [22:36] <markp> same argument people have been having for years
  643. # [22:36] <markp> there's no hope for this generation of web developers
  644. # [22:36] <hsivonen> markp: here in my SAX ivory tower, I have pluggable serializers
  645. # [22:36] <markp> (wordpress, RoR, etc.)
  646. # [22:36] <gsnedders> silly old people
  647. # [22:37] <markp> the best you can hope for is to influence the next generation
  648. # [22:37] <gsnedders> I'm telling you, we should allow anyone _my_ age into the current web.
  649. # [22:38] <gsnedders> (where "_my_ age" == 15)
  650. # [22:38] <hsivonen> interestingly, though, it appears that HTML5 being on the roadmap hadn't registered even after the HTML5 comment
  651. # [22:39] <markp> hsivonen: good for you
  652. # [22:39] * hsivonen learns that the mod_jk load balancer is not smart enough to switch requests from one keep-alive pipe to another worker when the original worker no longer exists
  653. # [22:39] <markp> the rest of the world still uses string concatenation
  654. # [22:39] <markp> if they're really advanced, they use unicode string concatenation
  655. # [22:40] <gsnedders> unicode? that 16-bit standard?
  656. # [22:40] * markp slaps gsnedders
  657. # [22:40] <gsnedders> (sorry, that's what I was taught at school)
  658. # [22:40] <markp> yeah yeah
  659. # [22:40] <gsnedders> oh, and US-ASCII is 8-bit
  660. # [22:40] * gsnedders sighs
  661. # [22:40] <gsnedders> this is how I lose marks in exams :(
  662. # [22:40] <ROBOd> annevk: i found the answer to my question related to window properties. the answer is no, that's not what's happening. the spec actually says that the "custom window properties" (from the default view of the browsing context) is saved as a list of added properties in the document object, such that when the user/script goes *back* to the same document, the list of properties can be restored in the window object
  663. # [22:41] <markp> i fixed a bunch of unicode-related myths just before "dive into python" was released
  664. # [22:41] <markp> not sure if i ever fixed them in the online version
  665. # [22:41] <markp> so i'm part of the problem, spreading lies and misconceptions about unicode
  666. # [22:41] <hsivonen> markp: Klingon? :-)
  667. # [22:41] <gsnedders> markp: well they haven't reached my classroom :(
  668. # [22:41] <markp> silly rabbit, Klingon is not in unicode
  669. # [22:41] <markp> everyone knows that
  670. # [22:42] <Philip`> I feed data from a SAX parser into a DOM builder and stick bits of DOM together then convert the tree into a SAX stream and serialise it to disk and then copy-and-paste an HTML header onto it in a text editor, just for fun
  671. # [22:42] <gsnedders> what encoding do you use for Klingon, anyway?
  672. # [22:42] <markp> you have a clipboad? luxury...
  673. # [22:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: UTF-8 plus de facto PUA mappings
  674. # [22:43] * markp laughs at the iphone users without clipboards
  675. # [22:44] * markp has an unpublished draft about accessibility issues in html 5
  676. # [22:44] <hsivonen> markp: cool
  677. # [22:45] <markp> it needs... work
  678. # [22:45] <annevk> ROBOd, yeah, something like that is what I thought actually
  679. # [22:45] <markp> and lots of editing
  680. # [22:45] <markp> and probably some high-blood-pressure medication
  681. # [22:45] * gsnedders wonders whether to waste more time trying to get Windows to install
  682. # [22:46] <markp> people still install windows?
  683. # [22:46] * Joins: othermaciej_ (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-fd9146b658c9d6df)
  684. # [22:46] <gsnedders> sadly I need it for testing
  685. # [22:46] <gsnedders> and it's driving me insane.
  686. # [22:46] <annevk> as long as IE has market share :)
  687. # [22:46] * Joins: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com)
  688. # [22:46] <Philip`> Why install when you can use a pre-built VM image? :-)
  689. # [22:47] <markp> IEs4Linux, surely?
  690. # [22:47] <gsnedders> markp: I'm not on Linux :P
  691. # [22:47] * annevk is running VM actually
  692. # [22:47] <markp> well, there's your first problem
  693. # [22:47] <gsnedders> I (stupidly) need Windows for some school things, too.
  694. # [22:47] <hsivonen> I just reconfigured DNS for html5.validator.nu to point to a new server
  695. # [22:47] <gsnedders> (Which is ironic as my teacher doesn't use Windows himself, and doesn't even have a copy)
  696. # [22:47] <hsivonen> please let me know if things break
  697. # [22:48] <hsivonen> validator.nu still points to the old place
  698. # [22:48] * gsnedders sighs
  699. # [22:48] <Philip`> (Answer to earlier question: because the IE6/7 VM images are released for Microsoft's VirtualPC and you seemingly have to use the Windows version of VMware Workstation to convert them into a format which the VMware Player on Linux/etc can load)
  700. # [22:48] <markp> there were several things at ibm that only worked on windows
  701. # [22:48] <gsnedders> time for one final attempt
  702. # [22:48] <annevk> markp called my OS "Not Debian" at some point iirc
  703. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm aware
  704. # [22:48] * gsnedders sighs. time for one final attempt I think
  705. # [22:49] <markp> annevk: ?
  706. # [22:49] <gsnedders> I've already wasted hours.
  707. # [22:49] <markp> what OS was that?
  708. # [22:49] <Philip`> IEs4Linux is annoying since the main reason I want to test stuff in IE6 is to see if alpha-channel PNGs are working properly, and IEs4Linux doesn't support that
  709. # [22:49] <gsnedders> wish me luck (and my life, in case I get too annoyed).
  710. # [22:50] <annevk> markp, Ubuntu, but maybe it was someone else
  711. # [22:50] * annevk can't find the reference
  712. # [22:50] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  713. # [22:50] <markp> i bear no ill will towards ubuntu
  714. # [22:51] <annevk> ah, http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/06/26/essentials-2006 'Ubuntu, which is an ancient African word meaning “can’t install Debian”.'
  715. # [22:51] * annevk got the quote wrong
  716. # [22:51] <markp> ah
  717. # [22:51] * Lachy is attempting to update the wiki now, it will be temporarily broken
  718. # [22:51] <markp> that was actually a random quote i found on slashdot, iirc
  719. # [22:53] <othermaciej_> hey, that rails thing linked to my post, too
  720. # [22:55] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("goota go, good night")
  721. # [22:56] <Philip`> Someone needs to teach GMail that dropping the " (Was: ...)" in the subject line does not mean the message is the start of a new discussion
  722. # [22:56] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-bb367072cc9a2ace) (Connection timed out)
  723. # [22:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: don't use the web interface of gmail :)
  724. # [22:58] * Quits: aaron (n=chatzill@c-66-31-86-217.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  725. # [23:01] <Lachy> successfully upgraded mediawiki, now I need to reinstall the extensions
  726. # [23:01] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.110.23) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  727. # [23:02] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.255.100.160)
  728. # [23:02] * Quits: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  729. # [23:03] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.255.100.160)
  730. # [23:04] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  731. # [23:05] <gsnedders> time to follow the normal advice, me thinks. repartition HD :(
  732. # [23:06] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.110.23)
  733. # [23:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: Make sure you don't have any backups before repartitioning
  734. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: :)
  735. # [23:07] <Philip`> The exhileration of danger is good for you
  736. # [23:08] <Philip`> s/e/a/
  737. # [23:08] <zcorpan> Tha? :)
  738. # [23:09] <gsnedders> at least it wasn't s/e/a/g (Tha axhilaration of dangar is good for you)
  739. # [23:11] <Lachy> the wiki upgrade is complete :-)
  740. # [23:13] <Philip`> These are a very special type of context-sensitive regexp that are highly irregular and cannot be computed without first implementing AI
  741. # [23:14] <gsnedders> :)
  742. # [23:17] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  743. # [23:20] <annevk> Hixie, no response from sebastian btw (re: question from you a day or so ago)
  744. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Is it fair to call the Tech Plenary "meetings"?
  745. # [23:21] * Quits: othermaciej_ (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-fd9146b658c9d6df) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  746. # [23:22] <annevk> yup
  747. # [23:23] * annevk -> bed
  748. # [23:23] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
  749. # [23:26] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-144-163-143.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  750. # [23:37] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@nox.vm.bytemark.co.uk) ("leaving")
  751. # [23:45] * Joins: othermaciej_ (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-4b9365ab8ceb4d75)
  752. # [23:46] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  753. # [23:55] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@78.86.11.80)
  754. # Session Close: Thu Sep 13 00:00:00 2007

The end :)