/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 19 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [01:09] <Hixie> the tools will save us!
  17. # [01:09] <Hixie> except apparently in this case: http://www.shelter-systems.com/grip-clips.html
  18. # [01:09] <Hixie> where the user got confused between "list bullet" and "radio button"
  19. # [01:11] <gavin_> heh
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  21. # [01:12] <kingryan> yeah, Hixie, I can't wait for the day, far in the future, when the tools will save us
  22. # [01:12] <kingryan> of course, then they'll develop AI, violate the 3 laws and destroy human civilization
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  24. # [01:13] <marcosc> but at least we will be saved!
  25. # [01:13] <kingryan> our robot masters will save us from ourselves
  26. # [01:17] <Dashiva> They won't save us, they'll just save HTML
  27. # [01:20] <Philip`> jacobolus: I was using pstoedit (via Inkscape) to convert PS->SVG, and that appears to only work correctly if you make it convert all text into curves
  28. # [01:20] <Lachy> looks like they wanted to create an inline list, rather than a vertical bulleted list, and wasn't aware of either stylesheets or characters like U+2022 Bullet •
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  52. # [03:09] <Lachy> I wonder why Křištof is arguing about the meaning of "checked"? http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-September/012520.html
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  58. # [03:30] <Hixie> i dunno, but i hope nobody tries to correct him
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  61. # [04:15] <Webtester01> Hello.
  62. # [04:16] <Webtester01> I have an idea that would be great for web applications.
  63. # [04:19] <Webtester01> Related to javascript and html5
  64. # [04:19] <Webtester01> .
  65. # [04:27] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-76-88-44-219.san.res.rr.com)
  66. # [04:28] <Webtester01> Hello.
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  69. # [04:31] <Webtester01> I propose two attributes to the the script tag: private and allowid. The private attribute would isolate a script's variables from other scripts on the page, and the allowid attribute would contain ids of scripts or objects allowed to access the script marked private.
  70. # [04:33] <deltab> you can do the former with (function () { ... })()
  71. # [04:34] <Webtester01> Scripts marked as private would be allowed to make persistant socket connections, ie: var sock = XMLSocket(host,port), or some other syntax.
  72. # [04:34] <Lachy> where is XMLSocket defined?
  73. # [04:34] <Webtester01> This is just a hypothetical idea.
  74. # [04:34] <Lachy> maybe you want the TCPConnection interface
  75. # [04:35] <Lachy> that's already in HTML5, or maybe you actually want <event-source>
  76. # [04:35] <Webtester01> Ok.
  77. # [04:35] <Webtester01> So I can connect to a host other than the domain, on which the html 5 page resides?
  78. # [04:36] <Webtester01> For example, a web-based IRC client, that uses html and styling to produce a gui.
  79. # [04:37] <Webtester01> Or a terminal?
  80. # [04:37] <Lachy> you would have to proxy messages through a custom server to do that
  81. # [04:38] <Lachy> cross-domain security restrictions apply
  82. # [04:38] <Webtester01> Yes.
  83. # [04:38] <Webtester01> That's why I had some security ideas in place, regarding the idea I mentioned earlier.
  84. # [04:39] <Lachy> the way you described the private attribute wouldn't actually solve those problems
  85. # [04:40] <Lachy> Webtester01, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-network.html#network
  86. # [04:40] <Webtester01> Well the private script would not be able to access the pool from the other scripts either.
  87. # [04:41] <Lachy> so?
  88. # [04:41] <Lachy> it would still be able to modify the DOM and insert information into that. Other scripts could then read from the DOM
  89. # [04:43] <Lachy> what do you want cross-domain TCP connections for? Do you really want to implement an IRC client in javascript?
  90. # [04:45] <Webtester01> Well I wrote one in java for the socket connection, then javascript creates the gui.
  91. # [04:46] <Lachy> can create connections to any arbitrary host?
  92. # [04:46] <Lachy> can *java create ...?
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  94. # [04:47] <Webtester01> Not cross domain.
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  96. # [04:47] <Lachy> ah, so similar restrictions apply
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  98. # [04:48] * Webtester01 will be back soon. Dinner.
  99. # [04:52] <Lachy> Hixie, in TCP connections, there's an issue that states "We currently don't allow connections to be set up back to an originating IP address, but we could, if the subdomain is the empty string."
  100. # [04:52] <Lachy> then that's followed by "Then, if the subdomain argument is null or the empty string, the target host is the domain part of the script's origin."
  101. # [04:53] <Lachy> so it seems that that issue has been resolved already
  102. # [04:53] <Hixie> really?
  103. # [04:53] <Lachy> yeah, unless I'm misunderstanding something
  104. # [04:57] <Hixie> oh well
  105. # [04:57] <Hixie> i'm sure it'll come out in the wash when that section gets its next hose down
  106. # [04:59] <Lachy> it's also not clear how often the read event is fired for the Connection interface
  107. # [05:00] <Lachy> I assume it's probably once for every TCP packet (for the TCPConnection)
  108. # [05:00] <Hixie> yeah i wouldn't look too closely at that section
  109. # [05:00] <Hixie> it needs much work
  110. # [05:00] <Lachy> I realise that (given the number of red boxes in it)
  111. # [05:01] <Hixie> :-)
  112. # [05:20] <Lachy> Hixie, when are planning to edit the spec some more? it's been almost a month since the last commit
  113. # [05:21] <Hixie> yeah, been at burning man and on a boat trip
  114. # [05:21] <Hixie> this part of the year is my vacations
  115. # [05:21] <Hixie> :-)
  116. # [05:21] <Hixie> that's over though
  117. # [05:21] <Hixie> i've been editing today in fact
  118. # [05:21] <Hixie> writing up the datatemplate algorithms
  119. # [05:22] <Hixie> spec on the site is regenned
  120. # [05:22] <Hixie> still incomplete though
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  122. # [05:25] <Lachy> oh cool, I was wating to find out more about datatemplate
  123. # [05:27] <Lachy> I'll have to read it later though, right now I'm trying to install MySQL
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  125. # [05:28] <Lachy> hi othermaciej
  126. # [05:29] <othermaciej> hey Lachy
  127. # [05:29] <othermaciej> colloquy keeps messing up my nick
  128. # [05:29] * othermaciej swears
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  146. # [08:49] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  147. # [08:49] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
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  154. # [09:54] <Dashiva> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/09/18.html?provocative_title
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  158. # [10:08] <Hixie> Dashiva: he's probably right
  159. # [10:08] <Hixie> though google already has something like what he describes (GWT)
  160. # [10:08] <Hixie> compiles Java straight to JS+DOM, cross-browser
  161. # [10:10] <othermaciej> Google also compiles JS down to JS
  162. # [10:10] * othermaciej is on the receiving end of that a fair bit
  163. # [10:11] <kfish> http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Yhc/Javascript
  164. # [10:12] <kfish> ((((a real language, but no need for endless trailing parentheses))))
  165. # [10:12] <Hixie> othermaciej: true
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  167. # [10:19] <KevinMarks> you can usually append something to get it uncompiled
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  169. # [10:33] <KevinMarks> isn't HTML5 at least part of Joel's answer?
  170. # [10:33] <Hixie> HTML5 is a level below what joel's talking about
  171. # [10:33] <Hixie> it's like a new libc
  172. # [10:34] <KevinMarks> I was thinking this bit: "Right now the big hole in the portability story is — tada! — client-side JavaScript, and especially the DOM in web browsers. Writing applications that work in all different browsers is a friggin’ nightmare. There is simply no alternative but to test exhaustively on Firefox, IE6, IE7, Safari, and Opera, and guess what? I don’t have time to test on Opera. Sucks to be Opera. Startup web browsers
  173. # [10:34] <KevinMarks> don’t stand a chance."
  174. # [10:35] <Hixie> well, only insofar that html5 does a small amount to help interop
  175. # [10:35] <Hixie> but really interop problems are largely up to the browser vendors
  176. # [10:36] <Hixie> just having a detailed spec doesn't solve the problem, the browsers still have to be fixed to match the spec
  177. # [10:37] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#datatemplate
  178. # [10:37] <Hixie> behold
  179. # [10:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. bug documented and queued for the great XHTML 1 refactoring
  180. # [10:39] <othermaciej> HTML5 can foster interop directly (by providing useful spec language and backing it by exhaustive tests
  181. # [10:39] <othermaciej> but also indirectly by creating a forum where the players talk about interop
  182. # [10:39] * Quits: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-df9b1e675766447d)
  183. # [10:40] <othermaciej> and by fostering a culture where interop is aprimary value
  184. # [10:40] <KevinMarks> the comment about cut and paste is interesting
  185. # [10:40] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what question Joe is trying to answer
  186. # [10:40] <KevinMarks> when I cut/paste within firefox, it seems to just work
  187. # [10:40] <othermaciej> *Joel
  188. # [10:41] <Hixie> ok i just checked in several hundred lines
  189. # [10:41] <Hixie> hopefully that'll make up for the few weeks of nothing
  190. # [10:41] <KevinMarks> he's not traying to answer one, he's just being a old fart and saying he's seen ti all before
  191. # [10:41] <Hixie> KevinMarks: you can't cut and paste a contact from gmail and paste it into yahoo mail
  192. # [10:41] <Hixie> his concern is valid, imho
  193. # [10:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: did you decide you wanted to visit us for the offline stuff?
  194. # [10:41] <KevinMarks> he said an image
  195. # [10:42] <KevinMarks> but yes, a contact woudl be good
  196. # [10:42] <KevinMarks> *cough* hCard *cough*
  197. # [10:42] <Hixie> you wouldn't want to use hCard
  198. # [10:42] <Hixie> vCard would make more sense imho
  199. # [10:42] <KevinMarks> I would
  200. # [10:43] <KevinMarks> firefox does HTML copy paste nicely
  201. # [10:43] <KevinMarks> hCard is HTML
  202. # [10:43] <Hixie> html5 actually does introduce proper APIs for copy/paste though
  203. # [10:43] <KevinMarks> the other browsers need to catch up there
  204. # [10:43] <Hixie> so i guess in a way that's part of his SDK
  205. # [10:43] <hsivonen> KevinMarks: does HTML copy paste nicely within two text/html views? or otherwise?
  206. # [10:44] <KevinMarks> hm
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  208. # [10:44] <Hixie> pasting html into a web page wouldn't really help
  209. # [10:44] <Hixie> you want to paste into the app, not into the page
  210. # [10:44] <Hixie> anyway
  211. # [10:44] <Hixie> i should sleep
  212. # [10:44] <Hixie> nn
  213. # [10:44] <kfish> javascript to watch selections and override the selection buffer (with an appropriate arbitrary xml representation of the selected data, contact etc.)?
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  215. # [10:44] <KevinMarks> well, paste works in gmail and writely
  216. # [10:44] <hsivonen> ok
  217. # [10:45] <KevinMarks> with copy from $arbitrary_webpage
  218. # [10:45] * Joins: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-95c41218d5f1a7ce)
  219. # [10:45] <hsivonen> KevinMarks: have you tried copying from a page served as application/xhtml+xml?
  220. # [10:45] * Quits: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-95c41218d5f1a7ce) (Client Quit)
  221. # [10:46] <KevinMarks> nah, they always show up as invalid anyway ;)
  222. # [10:46] <hsivonen> I had a good look at the Gecko clipboard code a bit over a year ago. I can't remember what happens with XML, but I'd expect trouble
  223. # [10:46] <KevinMarks> per Hixie, finding one is hard....
  224. # [10:46] <KevinMarks> .02% wasn't it?
  225. # [10:46] * Joins: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-79053b45dd5e5cfb)
  226. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Planet Intertwingly
  227. # [10:47] <KevinMarks> or shelley I suppose
  228. # [10:47] <KevinMarks> come to think of it, I haven't seen anything by her in a while
  229. # [10:48] <zcorpan> KevinMarks: 0.014% had some xml mime type iirc (might not be xhtml, more likely rss)
  230. # [10:49] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: how come Pages and Pesentations have an HTML editing engine that utterly fails in Safari, but GMail and Writely work fine
  231. # [10:50] <KevinMarks> google is large, it contains multitudes
  232. # [10:50] <hsivonen> the only application/xhtml+xml blog that I've read repeatedly and on which I haven't seen the yellow screen of death is Jacques Distler's Musings
  233. # [10:50] <othermaciej> it contains a knowledge exchange problem
  234. # [10:53] * jgraham thinks he remembers seeing the YSOD on Musings (at least, I remember Jacques said there had been a problem caused by a trackback with an unexpected character encoding)
  235. # [10:55] <hsivonen> well, I've had a vicarious YSoD on Musings. I instructed another person read something over there and he replied that he can't because of YSoD. (He had a Gecko build without the MathML pseudo-DTD in the catalog--Netscape 6.something.)
  236. # [10:59] <KevinMarks> did you see the footnote here, maciej? http://ejohn.org/blog/freeing-the-grid/
  237. # [11:03] <hsivonen> interestingly, when Joel mentions compilation to cross-browser JS, he doesn't mention Google Web Toolkit
  238. # [11:03] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: the whiny part or the cnfusing part?
  239. # [11:05] <othermaciej> UI toolkits do soeem to have very aggressive expectations of the pace of new browser version deployment
  240. # [11:07] <hsivonen> btw, Joel is right about download times. Flickr sucked on GPRS (not because of photos but because of JS). Moving to HSDPA fixed it better than code optimization.
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  242. # [11:08] <othermaciej> a fair chunk of Safari users are still on Safari < 2
  243. # [11:09] <othermaciej> .63% of total market
  244. # [11:09] <othermaciej> close to Opera's total share
  245. # [11:09] <othermaciej> otoh developing for Safari 1.3 (or god forbit 1.1) would be painful
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  248. # [11:12] <KevinMarks> I don't like dojo's basic model of crufting up the html with their own extensions
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  250. # [11:17] <hsivonen> what are considered the least biased sources of browser statistics these days?
  251. # [11:17] <KevinMarks> measuring your won site
  252. # [11:17] <KevinMarks> *own
  253. # [11:18] <KevinMarks> it was an education seeing Orkut's browser stats
  254. # [11:20] <hsivonen> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms534654.aspx looks self-contradictory to me
  255. # [11:20] <hsivonen> "An element can have focus if the tabIndex property is set to any valid negative or positive integer."
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  257. # [11:20] <hsivonen> shouldn't that be zero or positive?
  258. # [11:22] <hsivonen> hmm. perhaps I misunderstood and tabbability and focusability are different in IE. hmm.
  259. # [11:23] <hsivonen> othermaciej: has Apple said anything about ARIA in public?
  260. # [11:24] <othermaciej> hsivonen: not that I know of
  261. # [11:24] <othermaciej> I look at http://marketshare.hitslink.com/ usually
  262. # [11:25] <othermaciej> (re market share)
  263. # [11:25] <othermaciej> I don't have any specific reason to think their methodology is way better than the competition
  264. # [11:25] <othermaciej> but their numbers seem so align with my expectations
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  266. # [11:26] <othermaciej> and it's not a one-site survey of a specialist site
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  268. # [11:26] <hsivonen> hmm. they don't count engines
  269. # [11:27] <hsivonen> instead they isolate some branded products: Netscape, PSP and Playstation
  270. # [11:27] <othermaciej> you have to know what product is what engine
  271. # [11:27] <othermaciej> you can also get a more detailed version breakdown
  272. # [11:28] <hsivonen> when I write my perfect log analysis tool, it'll count engines
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  274. # [11:29] <othermaciej> this is pretty detailed: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=6
  275. # [11:29] <othermaciej> I don't know what the PSP browser is
  276. # [11:30] <othermaciej> Blazer seems to be the top entrant to clearly not use one of the top 4 engines
  277. # [11:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I've been told that PSP in NetFront
  278. # [11:31] <othermaciej> series 60 shows up in os share but I don't see a browser that is obviouslly theirs
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  280. # [11:34] <hsivonen> weird. Opera Mini reveals my phone's built-in UA to servers in a custom header
  281. # [11:35] <hsivonen> the headers Mini sends are more crufty than headers that cause size concern in desktop Gecko...
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  332. # [13:32] <Lachy> the copy/paste issue Joel wrote about in that article wouldn't be too hard to solve
  333. # [13:32] <Lachy> it's not that hard to implement a clipboard: http://html5.lachy.id.au/clipboard
  334. # [13:33] <Lachy> just need to develop the API a bit more, make it support multiple users (probably backed by a DB instead of a simple text file)
  335. # [13:34] <Lachy> then just get different web apps to hook into the API, and then you've got an instant shared clipboard between apps that works anywhere
  336. # [13:35] <Dashiva> And a huge giant SPOF
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  338. # [13:36] <Lachy> SPOF?
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  340. # [13:37] <Lachy> ah, Single Point of Failure?
  341. # [13:37] <Lachy> then make it a distributed system.
  342. # [13:38] <hsivonen> the browser should probably perform token exchange choreography between the sites and then initiate a site-to-site transfer with the browser-negotiated token
  343. # [13:38] <hsivonen> not simple
  344. # [13:39] <hsivonen> (for stuff like enabling copy-paste of large media files without round-tripping originals through the browser)
  345. # [13:40] <Lachy> if the API is standardised, web apps could talk directly to each other without having to round trip everything through the browser
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  365. # [14:33] <Lachy> othermaciej, have you made any progress on the design principles today?
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  376. # [15:03] <jeremyb> does dave raggett come by here?
  377. # [15:04] * jeremyb wonders about the topic
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  379. # [15:04] <jeremyb> or anyone know much about slidy/want to discuss it?
  380. # [15:05] <jeremyb> ooooh, /me likes the ability to highlight nicks in the logs and doesn't remember that from last time he looked at them
  381. # [15:09] <Lachy> jeremyb, the highlight feature was added about a week ago
  382. # [15:10] * jeremyb now realizes that could be confused with the line highlighting which he does remember from the last time
  383. # [15:11] <Lachy> what's confusing about it?
  384. # [15:11] <jeremyb> my description?
  385. # [15:11] <jeremyb> when you highlight a line the nicks are highlighted too
  386. # [15:11] <jeremyb> nvm :)
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  389. # [15:14] <hsivonen> jeremyb: I don't recall seeing Dave Raggett here in the last couple of months
  390. # [15:14] <jeremyb> anyway, gotta run, but if anyone wants to point me to a better place for slidy that'd be great. btw, i'm planning on doing something with slidy and a wiki. prolly 1 whole slide show per wiki page.
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  392. # [15:14] * jeremyb wonders if anyone's done anything like that
  393. # [15:14] * jeremyb waves good morning to aaron
  394. # [15:14] <jeremyb> hsivonen: thx
  395. # [15:15] <aaronlev> good morning jeremyb
  396. # [15:15] <aaronlev> hi hsivonen
  397. # [15:15] <hsivonen> jeremyb: IIRC Jacques Distler blogged about putting S5 slides on Instiki
  398. # [15:15] <hsivonen> aaronlev: hi
  399. # [15:16] <jeremyb> hsivonen: s5?
  400. # [15:16] <hsivonen> jeremyb: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/instiki/show/S5
  401. # [15:16] <jeremyb> thx
  402. # [15:16] * jeremyb runs (busy day :()
  403. # [15:17] <hsivonen> jeremyb: S5 is a competitor of Slidy if I have the right idea of what Slidy does
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  415. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - The GNU coding standards for error messages are documented here:
  416. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Errors.html#Errors
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  425. # [16:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
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  440. # [16:50] <Philip`_> APNG interoperability is not good so far :-(
  441. # [16:56] <hsivonen> Philip`_: do Firefox 3 and Opera 9.5 use the same libpng extensions?
  442. # [16:57] <hsivonen> that is, is this a graphics drawing layer issue of an APNG impl. level issue?
  443. # [16:57] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  444. # [16:58] <hsivonen> what's today's compat situation with <m>? should I use it or go with a styled <b> or something?
  445. # [16:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you can't style it in ie7
  446. # [17:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. then I'm not gonna use it
  447. # [17:00] * hsivonen mumbles something about <u>
  448. # [17:00] <zcorpan> <u> works fine :)
  449. # [17:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it doesn't validate as HTML5 as of today
  450. # [17:04] * zcorpan tries to wrap his head around datatemplates
  451. # [17:09] <Philip`_> hsivonen: From the differences, it looks like they're independent implementations - e.g. Opera thinks offset_x=2^32-1 means offset one pixel left, whereas Firefox thinks it's a fatal error
  452. # [17:10] <Philip`_> (The spec says that case is an error, so Opera I think is wrong (except error-handling doesn't seem to be strictly defined anywhere))
  453. # [17:11] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
  454. # [17:14] <Philip`> and e.g. Opera doesn't like zero-length fdAT chunks, whereas Firefox accepts them correctly
  455. # [17:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
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  461. # [17:33] <virtuelv> Philip`: filed a bug?
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  463. # [17:40] <Philip`> virtuelv: Not yet - I expect there are lots more bugs, so I'm trying to develop a semi-organised way to find as many as possible
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  469. # [18:01] <zcorpan> well, i have a bit trouble grasping the levenberg algorithms and thus how the whole datatemplate things actually works
  470. # [18:01] <zcorpan> can someone explain how it's supposed to work or give an example? :)
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  484. # [19:22] <Philip`> zcorpan: I'm guessing it works somewhat like http://philip.html5.org/demos/datatemplate/experimental/001.html though I'm not entirely certain :-)
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  488. # [19:27] <Philip`> (For backward compatibility, I guess you'd have to put the <datatemplate> and <items> parts in separate XML documents, else HTML parsers will mangle them horribly)
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  496. # [19:51] * Philip` wonders who Levenberg is
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  512. # [20:32] <hsivonen> any better way to visualize newlines in Unicode than U+21A9?
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  514. # [20:37] * Philip` now remembers that HTML4 mentions the &{ script }; syntax as being reserved for script macros, and wonders if that could be used for text expansion of templates since it shouldn't conflict with existing syntax
  515. # [20:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: what about XHTML5?
  516. # [20:38] <Philip`> Hmm
  517. # [20:38] <Philip`> I suppose you'd have to write &amp;{ script }; to get the equivalent DOM
  518. # [20:39] <Philip`> (assuming the &{ script }; template expansion happens somewhere outside the parser, so you should get the & character in the DOM)
  519. # [20:39] <hsivonen> maikmerten: what's the closed captioning and closed audio description situation with the Ogg family?
  520. # [20:39] <Philip`> which isn't overly pretty
  521. # [20:40] <maikmerten> hsivonen, I'm currently trying to figure out what "closed" means in that context ;)
  522. # [20:40] <maikmerten> ah, subtitles
  523. # [20:40] <hsivonen> maikmerten: closed means opt-in
  524. # [20:41] <hsivonen> maikmerten: open captioning means that everyone sees them by default
  525. # [20:41] <maikmerten> hsivonen, I think using annodex + ogg together with Ogg Skeleton can give the semantics wanted
  526. # [20:42] <maikmerten> (Ogg Skeleton is basically carrying meta information about streams multiplexed in Ogg)
  527. # [20:42] <hsivonen> maikmerten: does annodex bring in more complexity than just timed text?
  528. # [20:42] <hsivonen> maikmerten: whatever happened to Ogg Writ?
  529. # [20:43] <maikmerten> let's simply say that Ogg Writ did fall flat onti its face
  530. # [20:43] <maikmerten> onto
  531. # [20:43] <hsivonen> ouch
  532. # [20:44] <maikmerten> the way to go is annodex, which is semantically more rich than yet-another-Ogg-only-thingie anyway
  533. # [20:44] <hsivonen> I'm a bit afraid of scope creep
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  536. # [20:45] <maikmerten> well, if there's need for a "more straightforward" subtitle thingie I guess it may be possible to specify that, too (given the manpower and time)
  537. # [20:45] <hsivonen> maikmerten: I see. I was looking for an off-the-shelf replacement for 3GP Timed Text
  538. # [20:46] <hsivonen> MPEG-4 part 17, IIRC
  539. # [20:46] <maikmerten> http://trac.annodex.net/wiki/CmmlSubtitles
  540. # [20:46] <hsivonen> and also a way to have a second sound track off-by-default and flagged as audio description
  541. # [20:46] <hsivonen> thanks
  542. # [20:47] <maikmerten> http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/Ogg_Skeleton
  543. # [20:47] <maikmerten> Skeleton is exactly for that kind of stuff AFAIK
  544. # [20:47] <hsivonen> thanks
  545. # [20:48] <maikmerten> oggplay, which is the kitchen-sink solution to play Ogg (and used by Chris Double for Firefox <video>) carries support for Annodex and IIRC Skeleton
  546. # [20:48] <hsivonen> ooh. cool.
  547. # [20:49] <maikmerten> well, liboggply is developed by the annodex guys ;)
  548. # [20:49] <maikmerten> little surprise here
  549. # [20:49] <maikmerten> but makes all of our lives much easier ;)
  550. # [20:49] <hsivonen> maikmerten: well, I am a bit surprised, because I've been awfully naive about the status of Writ
  551. # [20:50] <maikmerten> hsivonen, well, seems Writ can/does work
  552. # [20:50] <hsivonen> the Wrip page on the Xiph wiki and the one in Wikipedia give the impression of ongoing work instead of abandonware
  553. # [20:50] <hsivonen> oh
  554. # [20:50] <maikmerten> it's just that it never actually made it to some sort of "recommendation"
  555. # [20:51] <maikmerten> plus I may be misinformed about the state of things
  556. # [20:51] <maikmerten> and if there's demand a solution isn't out of reach, I guess
  557. # [20:51] <maikmerten> I'll have to investigate
  558. # [20:51] <hsivonen> in order to promote the Ogg family for <video>, the accessibility stuff needs to be sorted out at some point
  559. # [20:52] <maikmerten> - what the exact status of subtitles is in Annodex
  560. # [20:52] <maikmerten> - what the status of Writ is
  561. # [20:52] <maikmerten> (or if there's a newer approach)
  562. # [20:52] <maikmerten> I see
  563. # [20:53] <hsivonen> as a sidenote, I've so far learned that "subtitles" is a bad word in North America in the accessibility context and captioning is the preferred word. (even though en-GB uses subtitles)
  564. # [20:53] <hsivonen> subtitles has a translation connotation
  565. # [20:54] <maikmerten> oh
  566. # [20:55] <hsivonen> I'll put the urls you gave into Bugzilla
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  568. # [20:57] <maikmerten> http://svn.xiph.org/trunk/writ/ <-- the writ implementation, by the way
  569. # [20:57] <maikmerten> I never tried it, but it seems like it's doing something
  570. # [20:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: is it worth defining application/octect-stream sniffing at all, for the sake of HTML documents served as such?
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  573. # [20:59] <hsivonen> maikmerten: thanks
  574. # [21:00] <maikmerten> hsivonen, you're welcome
  575. # [21:01] <maikmerten> I'm currently writing a mail to our advocacy mailing list forwarding your request and asking for status information
  576. # [21:01] <hsivonen> maikmerten: thanks
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  591. # [22:07] <Hixie> Philip`: wow, you pretty much nailed it.
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  593. # [22:07] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm glad i didn't specify the expansion algorithm, you came up with something quite interesting that i hadn't thought of
  594. # [22:07] <Hixie> i was thinking of using an extensions to CSS
  595. # [22:07] <Hixie> also, you don't need a registration mark in your example
  596. # [22:08] <Hixie> the only other thing is you'd want to have the input elements update the items
  597. # [22:10] <Hixie> e.g. onchange="dataNode.setAttribute('value', value)" value="&{this.getAttribute('value')}"
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  599. # [22:20] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  600. # [22:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: interesting site for browser stats, though they really should show the data on a log scale
  601. # [22:21] <Hixie> they could show more browsers that way too
  602. # [22:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: that would certainly make it easier to see the trends
  603. # [22:22] <Philip`> I'm not sure why I bothered putting the registrationmark in, since it's useless without scripting
  604. # [22:23] <Hixie> Philip`: it's useful when the data regenerates and hits a different set of conditions, but you want the same element to be used for different parts of the two conditions, yeah
  605. # [22:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: these stats also don't include the iPhone browser, which i believe would be interesting to see
  606. # [22:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: if you mean these stats: <http://marketshare.hitslink.com/>, then they lump the iPhone browser in with Safari, but you can see it in the OS share stats
  607. # [22:25] <othermaciej> (you can also see Nintendo Wii in the OS share stats)
  608. # [22:25] <Hixie> ah, so they do
  609. # [22:25] <Hixie> but those don't appear on the line graph
  610. # [22:25] <Hixie> pah
  611. # [22:25] <Hixie> do you know if there's a way to download those numbers without site scraping?
  612. # [22:25] * hsivonen reads old Joel Strategy Letters over supper
  613. # [22:25] <Philip`> Oops, I missed the bit where the algorithm does useful stuff if you regenerate the structure without any registrationmarks
  614. # [22:26] <hsivonen> (they should be required reading)
  615. # [22:26] <Hixie> or without downloading each page in turn?
  616. # [22:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: uris?
  617. # [22:26] <Hixie> Philip`: that was the Levenberg breakthrough. :-)
  618. # [22:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://www.google.fi/search?q=site%3Ajoelonsoftware.com+strategy+letter top six hits
  619. # [22:27] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-09535db22182a93d)
  620. # [22:27] <Hixie> (btw for what it's worth i can confirm that these marketshare.hitslink.com stats are remarkably high quality)
  621. # [22:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: aha
  622. # [22:28] <hsivonen> HTML5 (unlike XHTML2) gets plugging into existing network right
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  624. # [22:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, what ARIA has going for it over HTML5 plus XBL is that ARIA doesn't disrupt existing systems
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  626. # [22:33] <othermaciej> Hixie: they do show a surprising amount of month-to-month variance which seems unlikely to reflect real changes in user base in at least some cases, but since it's based on usage, not count of unique users, I guess that could just reflect variability in browsing habits
  627. # [22:33] <othermaciej> Joel's letter # VI confuses me
  628. # [22:34] <othermaciej> afaik Google has at least two systems that compile languages down to JavaScript (with the source languages being Java and JavaScript respectively)
  629. # [22:34] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yeah, I noticed that he didn't mention GWT
  630. # [22:35] <othermaciej> there's also less reason on the web for a single library-level SDK to dominate, since there is no bundling/integration issue
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  633. # [22:48] <hsivonen> btw, http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2 must be heavily U.S.-biased
  634. # [22:48] <hsivonen> there's no way the iPhone could have more market share than S60 globally
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  636. # [22:49] <hsivonen> http://vowe.net/archives/008814.html
  637. # [22:50] <othermaciej> hsivonen: it's usage share, so it's possible if iPhone users browse a lot more per user
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  639. # [22:53] <othermaciej> I guess WinCE shows up pretty high too though
  640. # [22:54] <Hixie> iPhone users use the web way more than any other cell phone
  641. # [22:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: as i understand it it's not HTML5+XBL vs <div>+ARIA, it's HTML5 vs <div>+ARIA
  642. # [22:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: the XBL is only required if you want to start making custom new widgets, which isn't anywhere near as important in this case afaict
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  644. # [22:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: ARIA is about retrofitting custom JS+div widgets with accessibility if I've understood correctly
  645. # [23:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: XBL is also required if you want to make native HTML5 widgets looks kewl the way your art dept required
  646. # [23:00] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/datatemplate/experimental/002.html - now somewhat more elaborate and even more likely to be wrong
  647. # [23:00] <Philip`> What'd be really nice is a scripted implementation to test things with :-)
  648. # [23:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah
  649. # [23:01] <Philip`> Oops, I think the <rule condition="categories"><nest filter="category"></rule> is unnecessary
  650. # [23:02] <Philip`> (but the <rule condition="items" mode="summary"><nest id="item_filter" mode="summary"></rule> is still necessary)
  651. # [23:02] <Hixie> Philip`: dude, you kick ass. this is exactly what we need to check the spec makes sense.
  652. # [23:02] <Hixie> 002 has two item_filter IDs
  653. # [23:03] <Hixie> also, holy crap, i hadn't thought of modifying the <nest> dynamically
  654. # [23:03] <Hixie> that's awesome
  655. # [23:03] <Hixie> the spec will have to say the UA must monitor the template, too
  656. # [23:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: as far as I can tell, if someone replaces HTML 4.01 buttons, radio buttons and checkboxes with divitis, they'll going to want to do the same with sliders even when those are natively available
  657. # [23:04] <Philip`> Fixed item_filters
  658. # [23:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, can't argue with that
  659. # [23:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: let's hope xbl2 gets implemented soon :-/
  660. # [23:05] <othermaciej> some of the kewlness can be achieved just through CSS styling of standard controls
  661. # [23:05] <othermaciej> although browsers vary in how much of that they allow
  662. # [23:05] <othermaciej> it's doable for buttons and text fields, but not really for checkboxes or radio buttons afaict
  663. # [23:06] <Hixie> yeah
  664. # [23:08] <othermaciej> you can style them in Safari 3 by setting "-webkit-appearance: none" but I don't think there is any way in IE
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  667. # [23:14] <Hixie> did i get unsubscribed from public-html or something
  668. # [23:14] <Hixie> there's been no e-mail to it for hours
  669. # [23:15] * Joins: johnst__ (n=johnst@x1-6-00-04-61-4a-1f-54.k459.webspeed.dk)
  670. # [23:16] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  671. # [23:18] <jgraham> Hixie: It's been surprisingly quiet
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  689. # Session Close: Thu Sep 20 00:00:00 2007

The end :)