/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 26 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <kingryan> good lord indeed
  4. # [00:01] * kingryan gave up awhile ago
  5. # [00:04] <Hixie> one reason to use window.navigator is that window.navigator.onLine is already there
  6. # [00:05] <Philip`> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000416.html - "Moved to the public list" - aha, it does sound like they have a new private list for the cabal
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> HAHAHAHAHA
  8. # [00:05] <Hixie> i totally missed that
  9. # [00:05] <Hixie> that's awesome
  10. # [00:09] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137)
  11. # [00:10] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-213-58.pool.emnet.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  12. # [00:12] <gsnedders> html4all?
  13. # [00:14] <Philip`> I guess they worked out how to turn on the non-public flag this time
  14. # [00:15] <tndH> i read that as "Moved [from private email]", but i guess i'm not paraniod enough...
  15. # [00:15] <Philip`> (Note to whoever's reading logs: I think the old public archives mentioned the list admin password at some point - you should probably make sure it's been changed)
  16. # [00:16] <Philip`> ((This is a much easier way of communicating than email))
  17. # [00:17] * Parts: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  18. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: especially as it allows us to be quoted without context while quoting a whole response
  19. # [00:18] <Dashiva> Hi mom!
  20. # [00:18] * Dashiva waves
  21. # [00:18] * gsnedders realises what Dashiva is on about
  22. # [00:20] <Dashiva> Hoo boy: "why not develop a validator that looks for and fails the page if it has bogus alt? using heauristics, that shouldn't be so hard should it?"
  23. # [00:21] <Hixie> it baffles me how much they can miss the point
  24. # [00:22] <Philip`> tndH: If it was, why would he explicitly say "the public list" instead of "the list"?
  25. # [00:23] <tndH> point. :)
  26. # [00:23] <Philip`> Paranoia is more fun anyway, even if it's wrong - they can always correct us easily by saying there's only that one list :-)
  27. # [00:24] <Hixie> i'm sure they'll cc us and their private list soon enough
  28. # [00:25] * Joins: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-4af59efa40219452)
  29. # [00:25] <Dashiva> Philip`: Paranoia would suggest it was a cover-up
  30. # [00:27] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@51.80-203-76.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  31. # [00:30] <Philip`> Like with our secret invite-only IRC channel?
  32. # [00:32] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-200-156.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  33. # [00:38] <Hixie> ok i still don't have a good answer as to what we do with <?xml-stylesheet?>s and offline app caches
  34. # [00:38] <Hixie> since they come before the application="" is seen
  35. # [00:44] <Philip`> If it ought to come before everything, there's <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "application" "foo">
  36. # [00:44] <Philip`> (That is probably not a serious suggestion)
  37. # [00:45] <Hixie> heh
  38. # [00:45] <Hixie> that would be _hi_larious
  39. # [00:45] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-227-221-48-no62.tbcn.telia.com) ("Lost terminal")
  40. # [00:45] <Dashiva> You mean mlarious
  41. # [00:45] <Hixie> "hi everyone, we're co-opting the DOCTYPE tag, hope y'all are ok with that"
  42. # [00:46] <Hixie> it might even take attention away from the alt text stuff!
  43. # [00:46] <Dashiva> Look over there, a <div>ersion!
  44. # [00:50] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  45. # [00:52] <Philip`> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000415.html - it doesn't even need to be handled by the browser - just create a font with ligatures for sequences of characters like "color" so it gets rendered as "colour"
  46. # [00:53] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-69-110-5-249.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  47. # [00:55] <Hixie> it needs markup-level support because you'd need to do context-sensitive substitution in all but the most trivial of cases
  48. # [00:58] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-114-133.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  49. # [01:07] * Philip` wonders what "Content-Type: image/jpeg; charset=utf-8" means
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  52. # [01:11] <Hixie> Philip`: it could give the encoding of the TXT chunks, assuming jpeg has those :-)
  53. # [01:13] <brodie> it could have exif data with UserComment tags, but the encoding is defined in the tag
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  58. # [01:32] <Hixie> you know, i think we're gonna have to define a wrapper around the xml parser in the html5 spec
  59. # [01:32] <Hixie> to handle things like application="" on the root element, and so forth
  60. # [01:33] <Hixie> oh hey, we could just use a PI and say it has to come before <?xml-stylesheet?>
  61. # [01:33] <Hixie> for XHTML
  62. # [01:33] <Hixie> though yet more differences... that would suck
  63. # [01:33] <Hixie> gah, xml makes things so much more annoying.
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  66. # [02:34] <Hixie> the biggest problem with the current offline design i think is that there is a race condition the first time you fetch a page with a manifest
  67. # [02:34] <Hixie> in that as soon as the manifest is fetched, uris that aren't in teh manifest start failing
  68. # [02:34] <Hixie> but before, they work
  69. # [02:35] <othermaciej_> you could make the initial load block on the manifest, but not actually fetching the cache contents
  70. # [02:36] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  71. # [02:36] <Hixie> that would slow initial page load
  72. # [02:36] <othermaciej> that would be no worse than what a <script> element causes now
  73. # [02:36] <Hixie> which is unacceptable
  74. # [02:36] <othermaciej> (<script src="..."> that is)
  75. # [02:36] <Hixie> <script> is bad enough that people have mumbled suggestions that browsers should optimistically go ahead and parse past them
  76. # [02:37] <Hixie> (throwing away the results of that if the script ends up doing anything that depends on the dom)
  77. # [02:37] <Hixie> (i don't think it would work well, but that people are considering that is probably an indication that we don't want to add any more blocking things)
  78. # [02:38] <othermaciej> another (crazy) possibility is to keep parsing and even be willing to start loads but don't deliver the actual results of any loads until the manifest has been returned
  79. # [02:39] <Hixie> that could give really weird results on slow connections
  80. # [02:39] <Hixie> it would also interact poorly with the http 2-connectio-per-server limit
  81. # [02:39] <Hixie> s//n/magic
  82. # [02:40] <othermaciej> it could
  83. # [02:40] <othermaciej> I'm just trying to think of possible ways to avoid the race - I'm not sure any of them is actually preferable to the race
  84. # [02:40] <Hixie> yeah me either
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  86. # [03:04] <Hixie> Andrew is arguing that google doesn't use sql as a backend and that therefore we shouldn't use sql in html5
  87. # [03:04] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-0a943f1a60b5808a) ("The computer fell asleep")
  88. # [03:04] <Hixie> does he realise that one of the main supporters of sql in html5 is google, to the point where google has implemented ua extensions that support sql in browsers?
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  91. # [03:12] <aa> fwiw, I argued against putting sql in gears :)
  92. # [03:12] <aa> unsuccessfully
  93. # [03:12] <Hixie> heh
  94. # [03:12] <Hixie> i argued against it in html5, too
  95. # [03:13] <aa> but then, I am frequently wrong
  96. # [03:13] <Hixie> same here :-)
  97. # [03:13] <othermaciej> I don't love it either
  98. # [03:13] <othermaciej> but being there is a pretty compelling advantage vs. the hypothetical wonderfully elegant design
  99. # [03:13] <aa> does nobody love sql?
  100. # [03:13] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what would be better for solving the problem of keeping masses of structured data clientside
  101. # [03:14] <othermaciej> also I have even more distaste for object persistence systems than RDBMs
  102. # [03:14] <Hixie> yeah
  103. # [03:14] <Hixie> the fact that nobody understands object persistence systems, least of all web authors, is a big negative point against them
  104. # [03:15] <othermaciej> in fact I get the impression that most implementors of object persistence systems don't understand them
  105. # [03:15] <Hixie> indeed
  106. # [03:15] <Philip`> Judging by all the web frameworks that hide SQL behind magical object systems, people want to get away from SQL, though I'm not sure if where they're getting away to is a better solution
  107. # [03:16] <Hixie> yeah
  108. # [03:16] <othermaciej> it seems more practical to build a magical object system on top of SQL than vice versa
  109. # [03:17] <Philip`> and it's probably out of scope for an HTML group to design a better database system than what the world has already produced, and to do it in a couple of years and with too much backward-compatibility burden to be allowed a second chance
  110. # [03:18] <othermaciej> and there doesn't seem to be much consensus on how a magical object system should work
  111. # [03:18] <Philip`> That's easy - they should work like magic
  112. # [03:19] <Hixie> to be fair there's not that much consensus on how sql should work either, but i guess that compared to the object systems, there might appear to be unity :-)
  113. # [03:20] <Philip`> SQLite seems particularly consensus-ignoring in deciding that SQL's strong column types are a bug that should be fixed
  114. # [03:21] <aa> yes, who needs types
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  116. # [03:21] <Hixie> no comment
  117. # [03:21] <aa> luckily it works well with javascript
  118. # [03:22] * Joins: ChrisP (i=cprince@nat/google/x-468f75233ebd18da)
  119. # [03:22] <Philip`> Will it be possible to automatically convert JS Date objects into suitable SQL values?
  120. # [03:23] <aa> since there is no 'date' type in sqlite, I don't think it would come back out the same
  121. # [03:23] <aa> but you could certainly store the number
  122. # [03:24] <Hixie> i have to admit to never using sql date types and always just storing integers representing seconds from the epoch
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  124. # [03:24] <Hixie> i always seem to just get into problems when i use the sql date/time types
  125. # [03:24] <Hixie> that could say more about me than about sql or mysql, though
  126. # [03:25] <Philip`> http://www.sqlite.org/cvstrac/wiki?p=DateAndTimeFunctions - SQLite uses YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS strings
  127. # [03:26] <Philip`> It's nice when you can do "select * from t where modified > date('now', '-1 day')"
  128. # [03:27] <Hixie> i've always found it more reliable to do "select * from t where modified > ?", now-1*day
  129. # [03:29] <aa> Philip`: but you wouldn't be able to drop it into a variant column and have it come back out as a js date
  130. # [03:29] <aa> which you could do, to some extent, with other js datatypes
  131. # [03:36] <Hixie> ok going for lunch. i've written up a bunch of the offline stuff in the spec, though not all.
  132. # [03:36] <Philip`> It seems you can do "create table x ( y datetime )" and SQLite will happily ignore you and make it a numeric column affinity, and the API can recover the declared column type and do some conversions when passing between SQL and JS, maybe
  133. # [03:38] <aa> oh, cool
  134. # [03:41] <Philip`> (But there's something disturbing about declaring a column as "datetime", having it treated by SQLite like "numeric", then storing "YYYY-MM-DD" text strings in it)
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  136. # [03:47] <aa> hey hey chrisp
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  181. # [10:23] <Hixie> lordy, now steven f is complaining that in irc chat i laugh at him. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0095.html
  182. # [10:23] * othermaciej reads
  183. # [10:24] <Hixie> it's strange to me that the subscribers to html4all keep talking about their being a "divide" between "them" and "us", when personally i don't care who says what, i take input to the spec regardless of its source
  184. # [10:25] <Hixie> this is especially amusing to me, though, given the whole e-mail where John was saying that their goal was "divide and conquer" of the "html5 manglers" http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-August/000054.html
  185. # [10:25] * Hixie sighs
  186. # [10:25] * jgraham_ finds the email from steve quite strange
  187. # [10:26] <othermaciej> I'm sure you endeavour to do that (and I think you do a good job), but it is almost inevitable human nature to come to trust effective repeat collaborators a bit more, and be potentially a bit more open to their input
  188. # [10:26] <othermaciej> still, trying to position it as an us vs. them battle is unlikely to solve any real or perceived problems of cliquishness
  189. # [10:26] <Dashiva> Hixie: Stop dragging me down with you >:)
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  191. # [10:28] <jgraham_> Oh and I'm not sure I've been keeping up with all the out-of-band communication about alt to have a well-informed opinion but the idea of requiring embedded elements that are the sole contents of a link to have textual fallback (where possible i.e. not on <embed>) seems like it might address one of the most serious criticisms of missing @alt
  192. # [10:28] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.60.111)
  193. # [10:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: i really try to avoid any bias from who wrote the input, to the point where the issues list, for instance, doesn't list any metadata regarding who wrote the e-mail
  194. # [10:30] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm sure there is still some bias, of course, but i doubt that the bias is such that it significantly disadvantages steven f to the level that he is suggesting
  195. # [10:30] <Hixie> jgraham_: any idea if that was sent to the whatwg list or put on the htmlwg wiki?
  196. # [10:30] <hsivonen> jgraham_: requiring data that isn't available is going to result in bogus data
  197. # [10:31] <jgraham_> hsivonen: I know. I'm not clear on whether that particular case is special enough to warrant special conformance criteria though
  198. # [10:32] <jgraham_> For example on a photo page having alt="Large size photo" would at least tell you where the link goes in a way that is compatible with existing AT
  199. # [10:33] <othermaciej> I have to admit to a slight tendency to sometimes write off people who seem to be consistently non-constructive but I try to compensate for that as best I can
  200. # [10:33] <othermaciej> jgraham_: do you think a title="" on the link might be an acceptable alternative in such cases?
  201. # [10:33] <othermaciej> also, presumably if alt were required in such cases alt="" would be disallowed
  202. # [10:34] <Dashiva> othermaciej: I think in the end non-constructive people will be written off based on their non-constructive ideas, even if the idea is anonymized
  203. # [10:35] <jgraham_> othermaciej: Yeah, my other thought was to define that in the case where an image was the sole content of a link and the link had a title, the link's title would be the alt text for the image in the absence of any significant alt text (or something to that effect)
  204. # [10:35] <hsivonen> jgraham_: yes, in practice, alt text like that is probably good idea if other text isn't available
  205. # [10:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: btw for the record the significant inline thing will die, i just haven't gotten around to it yet
  206. # [10:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: good.
  207. # [10:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: did my message make sense in your opinion?
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  209. # [10:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: all the messages you sent on that thread made sense to me
  210. # [10:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: good
  211. # [10:42] <Lachy_> good evening
  212. # [10:43] <Lachy_> I just got back from the W3C SIG day at Web Directions
  213. # [10:43] <jgraham_> hsivonen: BTW, I added the "Cells that span a column with no heading have no headings" option you wanted to the table inspector smart colspan algorithm
  214. # [10:43] <othermaciej> hello Lachy_
  215. # [10:43] <Lachy_> the RDF/OWL/Semantic Web talks were interesting...
  216. # [10:44] <Hixie> (the aforementioned www-archive thread has grown)
  217. # [10:44] <Lachy_> especially when they said that they only began considering the application layer and looking for the "killer app" in 2006, and I asked what on earth was everything else developed for before those yet-to-be-developed apps?
  218. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham_: hmm. http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Fthesis%2Fhtml5-conformance-checker.html&source=&algorithm=smartcolspan changed to worse :-(
  219. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham_: the expected disassociation of the big abstract cell still doesn't happen
  220. # [10:45] * jgraham_ is now known as jgraham
  221. # [10:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: I may have got it wrong of course :)
  222. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: but now the horizontal associations don't work
  223. # [10:46] <Lachy_> I also met Chris Wilson today
  224. # [10:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: The latter is expected as the smart colspan only looks for vertical associations
  225. # [10:46] <Hixie> Lachy_: did anyone explain how the Semantic Web was going to avoid spammers doing metadata-stuffing?
  226. # [10:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh.
  227. # [10:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: IIRC, clicking "Computer Science and Engineering" used to highlight "Department:", which was good
  228. # [10:47] <Lachy_> no, that topic never came up. But without any applications for spammers to exploit, there's really no problem anyway.
  229. # [10:47] <Hixie> (cos that and the question of how to get ordinary authors to output triples are the two main problems i have with the SW)
  230. # [10:47] <Hixie> Lachy_: fair enough
  231. # [10:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm reasonably sure that never worked with the smart colspan thing. I'll look into why the cell isn't being disassociated this evening (it worked with your testcase)
  232. # [10:48] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  233. # [10:48] <Lachy_> though, one potential app that was discussed later was the use of RDF in some sort of rights policy description framwork. (that turned out to be essentially DRM, but without any kind of enforcement. That's left up to individual vendors)
  234. # [10:48] <Hixie> i thought we were busy moving _away_ from drm
  235. # [10:50] <Lachy_> yeah, some music labels are dropping it, though there are still some people and organisations that can't grasp the concept of treating customers like customers instead of criminals
  236. # [10:50] <othermaciej> so people on IRC can follow the side commentary in email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0099.html
  237. # [10:53] * jgraham thinks that Steve joining IRC would be more straightforward than having a parallel conversation via email but realises this might not be possible for a variety of reasons
  238. # [10:53] <Lachy_> anyway, on a more positive note, Chris' presentation about the HTMLWG, Marcos' Widgets and Dean Jackson's SVG were intereresting
  239. # [10:55] * Joins: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-cf03c5f2661934bd)
  240. # [11:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Fthesis%2Fhtml5-conformance-checker.html&source=&algorithm=smartcolspan&no_headings_if_spans_data_col=1 (I think you didn't select the correct option; the UI is abysmal, so I'm not surprised)
  241. # [11:08] <othermaciej> Lachy_: cool, any highlights?
  242. # [11:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh. excellent. thank you. (I used the exact same setting I had used before.)
  243. # [11:09] <Lachy_> well, I spoke to Chris during lunch about Microsoft's position on HTML5 and when they would be sending their review to the HTMLWG...
  244. # [11:10] <Lachy_> Chris' biggest problems with the spec is regarding <video> (mostly because of patents) and <canvas>, because he claims that not within the charter.
  245. # [11:11] <Lachy_> he send he would be focussing on reviewing the spec and send it shortly, but couldn't be any more specific about when
  246. # [11:11] <othermaciej> I suppose it would be stating the obvious to point out that these are two areas where proprietary technologies dominate on the web due to inadequacy of current standards-based alternatives
  247. # [11:12] * Joins: Ducki (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c8.pool.mediaWays.net)
  248. # [11:13] <Lachy_> he also had a problem with the accessibility of canvas, but I didn't get a clear response when I said it was just as accessible as static images - alternate content can and should be provided elsewhere.
  249. # [11:15] <othermaciej> it does seem that scene-graph based solutions could have an advantage in cases where interaction is desired (at least for clicks that do simple activation - not so much for more freeform interaction)
  250. # [11:16] <othermaciej> maybe it would be worthwhile to have something similar to imagemaps to define interactive areas in a canvas
  251. # [11:16] <othermaciej> in a way that could be exposed to assistive technologies
  252. # [11:17] <othermaciej> it couldn't handle complex interaction cases (like the drawing area of a paint program) but it's not obvious if anything reasonable can
  253. # [11:18] <Lachy_> could this work? <canvas map=#foo></canvas> <map id=foo><area onclick=doSomeInteraction()></map>
  254. # [11:19] <othermaciej> you'd want a decent API to programatically alter the <area>s and probably also the ability to define one with a general bezier path
  255. # [11:20] <Lachy_> maybe, but maybe possible that SVG could probably solve those use cases better than canvas, since you can already attach events to any shape or path
  256. # [11:21] <othermaciej> that is true, though you would need role="" or similar to expose those to assistive technologies reasonably
  257. # [11:23] <Lachy_> oh, Dean Jackson showed off a really cool app built with SVG and <video> running in recent internal build of Safari
  258. # [11:25] <othermaciej> we have an html <video> implementation checked in on a branch in the open source webkit tree but we haven't really publicized it much yet
  259. # [11:25] <Lachy_> yeah, that's what he told me
  260. # [11:25] <othermaciej> which reminds me that I need to wrangle up our implementation feedback because we have some changes to suggest
  261. # [11:26] <hsivonen> Desktop platforms don't ban direct-draw 2D graphics APIs for accessibility reasons. Instead, they provide low-level accessibility APIs.
  262. # [11:26] * Quits: Ducki (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980c8.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  263. # [11:27] <hsivonen> Likewise, HTML shouldn't ban direct-draw 2D graphics but should provide a low-level accessibility API (<canvas> subtree with ARIA)
  264. # [11:27] <Lachy_> I'd prefer to find something simpler than ARIA if possible
  265. # [11:29] <othermaciej> extending image maps seems potentially easier to use and also possibly useful for other reasons in addition to accessibility
  266. # [11:29] <othermaciej> (and could also be used in conjunction with ARIA)
  267. # [11:31] <othermaciej> I guess it depends on whether trying to actually manage the clickable areas is more likely helpful or annoying
  268. # [11:32] <hsivonen> forcing people to use a scene-graph-based solution (SVG) solves very little if the author doesn't make an effort to take care of accessibity (using ARIA, etc.)
  269. # [11:32] <othermaciej> SVG at least lets you use <a> elements in your scene graph so you could get built-in link semantics
  270. # [11:33] <othermaciej> but of course this would not cover other forms of interaction
  271. # [11:34] <hsivonen> yeah, the main benefit of the scene graph is that doing VoiceOver-style correlation of the visual point of interest and the aural point of interest comes "for free"
  272. # [11:35] <hsivonen> whereas walking the <canvas> subtree could give a JAWS-like result that doesn't highlight the corresponding part of the visual <canvas>
  273. # [11:35] <othermaciej> which an image map style approach could hypothetically solve at least for simple cases
  274. # [11:35] <othermaciej> though unclear if authorability would be acceptable
  275. # [11:50] <Hixie> it's not clear to me how the use cases of <canvas> (as opposed to SVG) can really be made accessible at all
  276. # [11:50] <Lachy_> I think we need to document the use cases for interactive canvas that could possibly be made accessible. Yahoo Pipes would be one, since, AFAIK, there's no way to draw pipes and add components without a mouse.
  277. # [11:50] <Lachy_> though I'm not entirely sure how that could be done without a complete separate UI
  278. # [11:50] <Hixie> those being graphical games, graphical image manipulation, and things like fractal visualisation
  279. # [11:51] <Hixie> the pipes in yahoo pipes could be trivially done using some simple text with links inside the canvas, as far as i can tell
  280. # [11:51] <Hixie> but yeah, seems like you'd want a separate ui for that
  281. # [11:53] <Lachy_> I doubt something like CanvasPaint could be made accessible to a blind user, since one needs to see in order to paint. Though, it could be made accessible to a keyboard user using cursor keys
  282. # [11:54] <Hixie> that doesn't require anything to do with aria
  283. # [11:54] <Hixie> just requires OS-level mousekeys support
  284. # [11:54] <Lachy_> indeed, cursor keys are provided by the OS
  285. # [11:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: the main accessibility problem with <canvas> is that it can be used to implement the visual part of use cases that theoretically should be done in SVG.
  286. # [11:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: just like <table> elements can be used to implement the visual part of use cases that theoretically should be done in CSS
  287. # [11:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: that is, <canvas> is low-level, and low-level APIs make it easier to do the wrong thing
  288. # [11:55] <Hixie> except maybe not quite as harmful
  289. # [11:55] <Hixie> yup
  290. # [11:55] <karlUshi> opening pandora's box
  291. # [11:55] <Hixie> just look at how ajax is used to replace static sites
  292. # [11:55] <Hixie> by loading pages dynamically
  293. # [11:55] <Hixie> man that is annoying
  294. # [11:56] <hsivonen> karlUshi: however, if there's enough demand for pandora's box to be opened, competing proprietary technologies will open it
  295. # [11:57] <hsivonen> (or have opened it already)
  296. # [11:58] <karlUshi> oh yes, for sure. But it doesn't mean you have to go down the path with everyone. Only a few people care about ecology that doesn't mean we should stop fighting massively used technologies which create global warming. :) There is a tension between the two, find the right balance is the key.
  297. # [11:59] <Lachy_> yeah, it's better to provide authors with the keys to open the box instead of letting them break it open with a crowbar
  298. # [11:59] <othermaciej> it does seem that most uses of canvas are either non-interactive or not fixable with scene-graph type solutions
  299. # [11:59] * karlUshi wonders where Lachy has grown up ;)
  300. # [12:02] <othermaciej> but if there are cases where it's called for, I think the right solution would be to add some suitable low-level accessibility mechanism rather than drop canvas
  301. # [12:03] <hsivonen> any ideas how to prevent people from abusing "show source" as an open proxy?
  302. # [12:04] <hsivonen> in an online validator, that is
  303. # [12:04] * Joins: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b9804a.pool.mediaWays.net)
  304. # [12:05] <Lachy_> what's the problem with that and why would authors try to anyway?
  305. # [12:05] <Lachy_> s/authors/uses/
  306. # [12:05] <Lachy_> *users
  307. # [12:05] <othermaciej> does that show the source as source, or attempt to render it?
  308. # [12:06] <hsivonen> Lachy_: for all the reasons why people seek open proxies: to cover their tracks accessing contraband
  309. # [12:07] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it dumps the source as content, but a smallish script could be written to feed the result as renderable to a browser
  310. # [12:07] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  311. # [12:10] <Lachy_> hsivonen, add a rights policy written in RDF that expresses using triples that users are not allowed to use the service as an open proxy ;-)
  312. # [12:12] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachy@203-214-146-132.perm.iinet.net.au)
  313. # [12:12] * Lachy__ is now known as Lachy
  314. # [12:19] * Joins: Steve_ (n=chatzill@82-44-69-8.cable.ubr02.nmal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  315. # [12:19] <Steve_> hi all just lurking
  316. # [12:20] <hsivonen> hi
  317. # [12:21] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@116-64-98-243.rev.home.ne.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  318. # [12:21] <Steve_> its steve faulkner btw
  319. # [12:22] <Steve_> now i am able to talk i porbably won't ever get any work done :-)
  320. # [12:23] <Lachy> Hi Steve
  321. # [12:26] <hsivonen> validator.nu now supports &out=xml
  322. # [12:26] <hsivonen> expect bugs
  323. # [12:26] <hsivonen> in particular, I haven't yet bullet-proofed it against non-XML chars
  324. # [12:27] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@203-214-146-132.perm.iinet.net.au) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518]")
  325. # [12:29] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@203-214-146-132.perm.iinet.net.au)
  326. # [12:29] <othermaciej> hi Steve_
  327. # [12:31] <Lachy> hsivonen, any idea why Firefox doesn't show the XML tree when I load the xml output? http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fannevankesteren.nl%2F2007%2F09%2Falt&out=xml
  328. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Lachy: the XHTML namespace
  329. # [12:31] <Lachy> oh
  330. # [12:32] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachy@203-214-146-132.perm.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  331. # [12:36] <krijnh> Is it okay for a JS for in loop to return the objects in a different order than they were put in?
  332. # [12:36] <krijnh> Opera seems to do that
  333. # [12:37] <Lachy> hsivonen, why does the xml output declare xmlns:h="..." and then use <code xmlns="...">?
  334. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Lachy: I thought I'd be helping the serializer with the former but the serializer chose to do the latter
  335. # [12:39] <hsivonen> Lachy: apparently, the the Xalan serializer prefers not to alter prefixes instead of preferring to avoid new namespace declarations
  336. # [12:39] <hsivonen> krijnh: JS objects behaving as hashtables are unordered, IIRC
  337. # [12:40] <hsivonen> krijnh: at least I remember reading that JSON objects should have HashMap as opposed to LinkedHashMap semantics in Java
  338. # [12:45] <Hixie> hey Steve_
  339. # [12:46] <Steve_> hi ian hope that our email exchange has not fixed our opinions of each other
  340. # [12:47] <krijnh> hsivonen: ah, okay
  341. # [12:47] <Hixie> steve: not on my end at least :-)
  342. # [12:47] <Hixie> Steve_: like i said in the thread, i really don't take into account where data is coming from when writing the spec
  343. # [12:48] <Steve_> hixie: me neither i would much prefer to be on good terms with people
  344. # [12:49] <Steve_> hixe: (i know i brought it up) but wanted to clear the air, anyway i didn't join the irc to continue the discussion, but to read and learn hopefully :-)
  345. # [12:50] <Hixie> :-)
  346. # [13:03] <othermaciej> krijnh: the ECMAScript spec lets for..in return the properties in any order
  347. # [13:03] <othermaciej> krijnh: however, there are sites that depend on returning them in original insertion order, at least for author-defined properties
  348. # [13:03] <othermaciej> krijnh: because that is what IE and Mozilla do
  349. # [13:04] <othermaciej> (and also Safari now too, though it didn't originally)
  350. # [13:04] <othermaciej> krijnh: so if Opera doesn't do that it is likely a bug, though not a standards-compliance bug
  351. # [13:05] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like I need to know about JS reserved words in order to sanitize callback names :-(
  352. # [13:06] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if real-world JS interpreters know about astral character categories...
  353. # [13:06] <hsivonen> having to know about Unicode categories in order to parse identifiers seems wasteful
  354. # [13:20] <Hixie> right, nn
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  359. # [13:45] <virtuelv> Hm. I've found a site where the author actually writes sensible content that could be used with longdesc
  360. # [13:46] <virtuelv> (Meaning he writes meaningful longdesc, but doesn't provide an attribute, or a URL for the longdesc content -- he displays it in search results, though)
  361. # [13:49] <Lachy_> virtuelv, URI?
  362. # [13:50] <virtuelv> see the output of http://www.ohnorobot.com/index.pl?comic=56&s=Hypotheticals&search=Search and compare it to http://xkcd.com/248/
  363. # [13:51] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@203-214-146-132.perm.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  364. # [13:51] <virtuelv> Lachy_: or try searching for the title of http://xkcd.com/135/
  365. # [13:52] <Lachy_> virtuelv, is that search actually maintained by the author of xkcd or just someone else who does it for him?
  366. # [13:52] <virtuelv> Lachy_: dunno
  367. # [13:52] <Philip`> I believe readers submit transcriptions of the comics
  368. # [13:53] <Philip`> http://www.ohnorobot.com/letsbefriends.pl - "By adding a small bit of code to your comics pages, you make it possible for yourself and your readers to transcribe each comic, quickly and accurately building your own personalized comic search engine!"
  369. # [13:53] <Lachy_> http://www.ohnorobot.com/archive.pl?comic=56&show=1&page=11
  370. # [13:53] <Lachy_> "[untranscribed - please consider transcribing this comic!]"
  371. # [13:53] <Lachy_> see the last one listed
  372. # [13:54] <virtuelv> their idea is neatish, though
  373. # [13:55] <virtuelv> I don't, for one second, believe that web authors will ever bother with longdesc
  374. # [13:55] <virtuelv> but allowing people to transcribe and upload transcription data for an image, and put it somewhere on the web seems feasible
  375. # [13:56] <Lachy_> indeed. It's evidence that the community-based alternative content approach may work for other sites, perhaps photo sites like Flickr
  376. # [13:56] <Lachy_> and also that SEO really is an incentive for providing alt text
  377. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Lachy_: my expectations with Flickr are low
  378. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Lachy_: I've solicited tags on my photos from stranges for 14 months
  379. # [13:57] <Lachy_> yeah, I wouldn't expect a large proportion of users to contribute
  380. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Lachy_: no one has tagged my photos so far
  381. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Lachy_: my photos aren't as interesting as xkcd
  382. # [13:57] <Lachy_> where's your photo stream?
  383. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Lachy_: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hsivonen/
  384. # [13:58] <Lachy_> hmm. that was predictable.
  385. # [13:58] <krijnh> othermaciej: Yeah, okay, but it's better not to assume any order :)
  386. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Lachy_: community work only works when the subject matter is interesting enough to create a community
  387. # [13:58] <hsivonen> the photos of a random guy generally aren't
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  389. # [13:59] <Lachy_> yeah, but there are communities in flickr and popular photographers who would have a lot more viewers than yourself.
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  391. # [14:04] <virtuelv> Heh. I found myself on one of hsivonen's photos
  392. # [14:06] <Steve_f> i don't hold much hope for sites like flickr to provide alt texts in many cases, i was checking the just uploaded files page on flcikr and only about 5% had soemthing in the alt that could be considered of any use
  393. # [14:07] <Steve_f> but certain tagged photo section appear to be better
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  402. # [14:26] <Steve_f> hsivonen: the alts on your photos aren't too bad :-). I know that they are just a replication of the title text, but for users of AT who navigate the page via tabbing or use a keystroke (example G in JAWS) to move through images or use a links list (as all the photos arecontained within links), they don't get that replication or the association between text and the image.
  403. # [14:29] <Lachy_> I wonder, in the case of <figure><a href="large-image"><img src="thumbnail"></a> <legend>Caption</legend></figure>, ATs should probably fallback to reading the caption as the link text even though it's technically not part of the link.
  404. # [14:29] <Lachy_> I wonder if that would be possible
  405. # [14:30] <zcorpan> should be possible
  406. # [14:32] <Steve_f> if there is a relationship between them there should be no problem
  407. # [14:34] <Steve_f> i this case as the image has a functional role it should describe the traget of the link e.g larger image caption
  408. # [14:35] <Steve_f> or frontloading the unique info "caption larger image"
  409. # [15:04] <Lachy_> Hixie, yt?
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  422. # [16:48] <Philip`> http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/schedule/paper/58 says "This is <span property="foaf:name">Jo Lambda</span>'s home page." - are there languages where that doesn't work, because possessives aren't just a suffix/prefix on the name?
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  453. # [20:14] <zcorpan> http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/09/26/wds07-workshop-day-two/
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  456. # [20:20] <Hixie> Lachy: here
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  459. # [20:28] <Hixie> zcorpan: your spec does more to explain aria than anything i have ever seen from the aria advocates in the last 3 years
  460. # [20:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: assuming you can resolve the two main big issue boxes in that spec (the ones that say what the values and attributes are and what they mean), we might actually have something that can be useful to the html5 spec.
  461. # [20:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah.
  462. # [20:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: i started writing it three days ago. :)
  463. # [20:34] <Hixie> yeah
  464. # [20:35] <zcorpan> i think i'll leave the spec to rest for a bit; i have some other things to work on
  465. # [20:35] <zcorpan> but i plan to spec everything that's needed to implement it in due course
  466. # [20:39] <markp> url to said spec?
  467. # [20:39] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal
  468. # [20:39] <markp> thx
  469. # [20:40] <markp> sigh
  470. # [20:40] <markp> aaa:clusterfuck="true"
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  473. # [20:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: how did you generate the SVG formulas from LaTeX?
  474. # [20:51] * gsnedders wonders how to mark-up a graph
  475. # [20:52] <Hixie> zcorpan: as it stands, it's still useless, since it doesn't define what any of the values and attributes mean, which is the main problem with aria. It's certainly a step in the right direction though.
  476. # [20:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: indeed
  477. # [20:52] * Hixie tries to understand the w3c's obsession with scheduling the unschedulable
  478. # [20:53] <gsnedders> MathML makes no provisions for graphs, SVG wouldn't really work with cubic graphs…
  479. # [20:53] <Hixie> regardless of what answers i give for the question of when xbl2 will exit cr, someone says it's unacceptable.
  480. # [20:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: tomorrow. kthxbai.
  481. # [20:55] <hsivonen> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_to_API_mapping
  482. # [20:55] <hsivonen> that doc seems to define the semantics by reference to MSAA
  483. # [20:57] <zcorpan> yep, i will need to research that part. i also think some things should happen in response to focus and changes to the dom, etc
  484. # [20:59] * bewest is surpised no one has mentioned couchDB in the course of "why sql" re offline web apps
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  489. # [21:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: From a menu item in Inkscape, which renders LaTeX to PS normally then uses pstoedit (with the '-dt' option to make fonts work, I think) to get SVG
  490. # [21:09] <Philip`> gsnedders: <canvas><table>...data...</table></canvas> and then you can even use canvas3d and get shiny reflective texture-mapped rotating graphs :-)
  491. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: oh yuck.
  492. # [21:12] <Philip`> I kind of like the automatic table-to-graph conversion in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index except it's not fancy enough :-(
  493. # [21:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: my physics teacher was calling bar charts the second worse type of graphs :P
  494. # [21:17] <Philip`> How else are you meant to represent frequencies of discrete values?
  495. # [21:18] <Philip`> ...apart from pie charts, which I'd guess are the first worst type of graph :-)
  496. # [21:19] <gsnedders> no, stack charts were, IIRC
  497. # [21:28] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  498. # [21:29] * Philip` wonders if you could do something with the table header association algorithm to determine a table's structure, then automatically feed the data into PlotKit to get graphs of it
  499. # [21:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
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  503. # [21:59] <Hixie> this app cache thing is going to make things SO confusing to people who list more than they should in their manigest
  504. # [21:59] <Hixie> manifest
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  507. # [22:06] * jgraham notes that #7 in DanC's list of things to do with RDFa is happening without RDFa and even without the author having to insert the data
  508. # [22:09] <gsnedders> can someone create GraphML? :P
  509. # [22:10] <gsnedders> (possibly as a delta spec on top of MathML)
  510. # [22:10] <gsnedders> possibly start at version 5?
  511. # [22:10] <jgraham> e.g. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~aac10/escience/sciborg.html
  512. # [22:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: GraphML would be tough
  513. # [22:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: Use cases? I'm not quite sure what you want it for :-)
  514. # [22:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: graphing things like f(x) and f'(x) (for the same function). Just thinking about typing up all of my Higher Maths notes :P
  515. # [22:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: and then things in physics like the relation between pressure and the multiplicative inverse of the volume
  516. # [22:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: surely all you need to do is specify some method to link up some graphing software to MathML?
  517. # [22:19] <Philip`> What's wrong with existing solutions, like using gnuplot and outputting PNG or SVG?
  518. # [22:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: surely any export to SVG of something like an exponential curve will rely on setting points, which will therefore lessen quality somewhat?
  519. # [22:22] <Philip`> Also, it's far easier to just scan hand-written notes rather than type them in :-p
  520. # [22:23] <Philip`> s/in/up/
  521. # [22:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: but harder to read :P
  522. # [22:23] * gsnedders has hellish handwriting
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  524. # [22:25] <Philip`> Just put error bars on the exponential-approximated-by-Beziers curve, since that'll be proper and physicsy
  525. # [22:26] <gsnedders> the more I think about doing it, the less easy it seems to do :P
  526. # [22:26] <Philip`> (Actually, I'd guess gnuplot always approximates with straight lines, but the same concept applies)
  527. # [22:27] <gsnedders> I got some homework for next Monday. I can't remember what.
  528. # [22:27] <gsnedders> s/next/this/
  529. # [22:28] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  530. # [22:29] <Hixie> jgraham: in fact, all of 1 through 5 are...
  531. # [22:35] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.60.111) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  534. # [22:49] <jgraham> "Finally, though Ursula may not know what to make of the paul:audience predicate, she can quickly find out what this predicate means using typical RDF navigation." I have no idea what "typical RDF navigation" is...
  535. # [22:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: download some OWL?
  536. # [22:51] <jgraham> and?
  537. # [22:52] <othermaciej> meta is like cowbell
  538. # [22:52] <othermaciej> no matter how much you have, you clearly need more
  539. # [22:53] * jgraham knows nothing about RDF except that most things using RDF seem to have been written under the assumption that everyone using it is exceptionally bright and into markup-based categorisation
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  541. # [22:57] * [1]aroben is now known as aroben
  542. # [22:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: If all you want is a function plotting language, content MathML might get you most of the way there. If you want to do data plots as well things get harder
  543. # [23:05] * Quits: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  544. # [23:05] <hsivonen> hmm. these XML and JSON formats I have designed waste an insane propertion of bytes in repeated element, attribute and JSON object key names
  545. # [23:06] <hsivonen> proportion even
  546. # [23:06] <hsivonen> perhaps I should investigate gzip
  547. # [23:07] <kingryan> hsivonen: or bencode?
  548. # [23:07] <kingryan> Bencode
  549. # [23:07] <kingryan> rather http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bencode
  550. # [23:07] * hsivonen looks
  551. # [23:07] <kingryan> like a compact less readable json
  552. # [23:08] <Philip`> Just pack all the data into a custom binary stream
  553. # [23:08] <hsivonen> kingryan: I take it that it doesn't have the off-the-shelf tool benefits nor the mindshare benefits of JSON
  554. # [23:09] <kingryan> hsivonen: correct
  555. # [23:10] <hsivonen> figuring out how to enable gzip filtering in Jetty seems more like something that software at the other end of the pipe might support
  556. # [23:11] <kingryan> yeah
  557. # [23:11] <kingryan> http://jetty.mortbay.org/xref/org/mortbay/jetty/servlet/DefaultServlet.html
  558. # [23:11] <kingryan> "gzip If set to true, ...."
  559. # [23:11] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-252.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  560. # [23:11] * Philip` converted a game engine to use XML instead of a custom binary format for its map files, which was alright until people started making maps with thousands of trees, at ~170 bytes of XML per tree vs ~20 bytes of binary data
  561. # [23:11] <kingryan> wait, that's not an on-the-fly gzipper
  562. # [23:13] <Lachy> ha! "Use Case #9 — Publishing a RDF Vocabulary" - how does that qualify as a use case for RDF?
  563. # [23:13] <Hixie> huh, bencoding is quite nice
  564. # [23:13] <Philip`> Lachy: It's a use case for RDFa, not for RDF
  565. # [23:14] <kingryan> Hixie: it is nice, but doesn't have the popular tool support of json+gzip
  566. # [23:14] <kingryan> which gets you pretty close in terms of space savings
  567. # [23:14] <Hixie> kingryan: yeah but since it would take all of 10 lines in most languages to write a decoder...
  568. # [23:14] <kingryan> Hixie: writing the decoder isn't hard, it's getting people to install it
  569. # [23:14] <Hixie> kingryan: i like that it has bijection between values and encoded data
  570. # [23:15] <kingryan> yeah, that's nice
  571. # [23:15] <Hixie> though i can't find any definition anywhere of error handling for bencoded strings
  572. # [23:15] <kingryan> we'll looked at it for an internal project at Technorati, but ended up going with json+gzip instead
  573. # [23:15] <kingryan> there is no error handling, there is no spec
  574. # [23:16] <kingryan> other than http://wiki.theory.org/BitTorrentSpecification
  575. # [23:16] <Hixie> that's unfortunate
  576. # [23:16] <Hixie> i'm looking for a format for the manifest of offline application caches
  577. # [23:17] <kingryan> json seems like a good candidate
  578. # [23:17] <Hixie> i don't want to use json or xml, both have way too many ways of going wrong and json doesn't define error handling
  579. # [23:17] <kingryan> given that browsers tend to support i already
  580. # [23:17] <Hixie> and json is really heavy weight (though not as much as xml)
  581. # [23:18] <Hixie> i'm thinking of just having one uri per line, with # for comments, and maybe some annotation support of some kind to list the various other things we have to include
  582. # [23:18] <kingryan> so is HTML, maybe we should make a binary version?
  583. # [23:18] <Hixie> html has defined error handling now
  584. # [23:18] <Hixie> and yes, it's far too heavy weight for a manifest format
  585. # [23:18] <hsivonen> looks like my JSON serializer produces parseable JSON. yay
  586. # [23:19] <Hixie> i didn't even consider using html :-)
  587. # [23:19] * kingryan points an obligatory finger at http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
  588. # [23:21] <Philip`> What kind of structure does the manifest need?
  589. # [23:21] <Dashiva> It seems like RDF(a) has hijacked all claims to sharing vocabularies
  590. # [23:22] <Hixie> Philip`: a list of URIs, a list of URI-prefix to URI mappings, another list of URIs distinguishable from the first, and user comments for documentation and so there is a way to force the file contents to change without changing their semantics.
  591. # [23:24] <hsivonen> validator.nu now supports &out=json
  592. # [23:24] <hsivonen> (the spec on the wiki isn't up-to-date yet)
  593. # [23:24] <hsivonen> callbacks aren't supported yet, either
  594. # [23:35] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.111.173)
  595. # Session Close: Thu Sep 27 00:00:00 2007

The end :)