/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-10-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 05 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-204126322e1fe482) ("The computer fell asleep")
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  5. # [00:02] <Philip`> ^\s*(\d\d\d\d-\d\d-\d\d(\s+|\s*T\s*)\d\d:\d\d(:\d+\.?\d*)?\s*(Z|[+-]\d\d:\d\d)|\d\d:\d\d(:\d+\.?\d*)?)\s*$
  6. # [00:03] <Philip`> Sorry, I think there's a newt in my keyboard that's typing regexps at me :-(
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie> looks like an ISO-8601 regexp to me, but i recommend perl's /x option
  8. # [00:04] <Philip`> Pfah! Whitespace is for Python programmers
  9. # [00:04] <Hixie> lol
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  12. # [00:11] <Dashiva> I'd recommend quantifiers
  13. # [00:11] <Hixie> i want the part of my brain that knows all the http response codes off by heart back.
  14. # [00:12] <Dashiva> 404
  15. # [00:12] <Dashiva> Actually, probably 410
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> (as in, i want to reclaim that part of my brain, as i don't think it's something i actually need to remember)
  17. # [00:12] <Hixie> it just seems wrong to me that i just instinctively know it's "304 Not Modified".
  18. # [00:12] <Hixie> and not 305... or 303... or whatever.
  19. # [00:12] <Philip`> Dashiva: Like \d{2}? That's longer than just typing \d\d
  20. # [00:13] <Dashiva> It's more readable, and it's shorter for n>2
  21. # [00:13] <Hixie> (Use Proxy... See Other...)
  22. # [00:13] <Dashiva> 207?
  23. # [00:13] <Philip`> There's only one value in datetime with n>2, and far more with n<=2 :-)
  24. # [00:13] <Dashiva> Still more readable :)
  25. # [00:14] <Hixie> 207?
  26. # [00:14] <Dashiva> What's that one?
  27. # [00:14] <Hixie> probably webdav or something
  28. # [00:14] <Hixie> i don't know of a 207 in http 1.1
  29. # [00:14] <Hixie> the google says 207 MULTISTATUS
  30. # [00:14] <Dashiva> Impressive
  31. # [00:16] <Hixie> RFC4918:11.1 says 207 Multi-Status
  32. # [00:16] <Hixie> defined in section 13
  33. # [00:17] <Hixie> jesus wept, webdav needs to crawl down a hole and die
  34. # [00:17] * Hixie goes back to defining manifest parsing
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  42. # [01:18] <Hixie> parsing rules written.
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  44. # [01:19] <Hixie> next is... the processing model, i guess
  45. # [01:21] <Dashiva> Hixie: Re:database names and paths, how about making them default to the active path (as a name prefix, or input parameter, or whatnot), but allow an override? That way they won't conflict by accident, and they can still be shared if needed
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  47. # [01:22] <Hixie> so moving an application around on a host breaks it?
  48. # [01:22] <Hixie> i guess we could
  49. # [01:23] <Dashiva> Moving an application is rarely a non-breaking operation anyhow
  50. # [01:23] <Hixie> really?
  51. # [01:23] <Dashiva> There's always some URL that should've been absolute and was relative
  52. # [01:23] <Hixie> fair enough
  53. # [01:24] <Hixie> the problem i see though is that i think duplicate installs of the same software on a host are going to be at least as likely as moving installed software around on a host
  54. # [01:24] <Hixie> so you're just trading conflicts for breakages
  55. # [01:24] <Hixie> (and in both cases the software can be written/configured to work around it)
  56. # [01:24] <Dashiva> True
  57. # [01:25] <Dashiva> I guess I consider it better to support the case where several parties are involved, since it's much harder to coordinate
  58. # [01:25] <Hixie> but it's only gonna be an issue when you install the same software, and software can already just use location.path as part of their database name if they want
  59. # [01:26] <Dashiva> Yes, but that requires every user to make that effort, rather than one user in the case of moving an app
  60. # [01:26] <Hixie> it requires one application software author to make the effort, instead of every user moving apps around
  61. # [01:27] <Hixie> s/apps/that app/
  62. # [01:27] <Dashiva> No, if the author does it, it will break users moving apps
  63. # [01:27] <Hixie> my point is i don't really see it as being much of a gain in either direction
  64. # [01:27] <Hixie> there are tradeoffs and i don't really see either as being better than the other
  65. # [01:27] <Hixie> (except that the status quo is simpler to spec and implement)
  66. # [01:30] <Dashiva> That matters too, yeah
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  78. # [02:19] <Hixie> othermaciej_: yt?
  79. # [02:19] <Hixie> othermaciej_: if i am at a page that's offline
  80. # [02:19] <othermaciej_> Hixie: yep what's up
  81. # [02:19] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  82. # [02:19] <Hixie> but i'm online
  83. # [02:19] <Hixie> and the page has an <iframe> that references a page that's not in the cache
  84. # [02:19] <Hixie> right now the spec says to fail the load.
  85. # [02:19] <Hixie> (unless the page is whitelisted)
  86. # [02:20] <Hixie> but what if the page is one that isn't in the cache but has a defined fallback page?
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  88. # [02:20] <Hixie> should we fetch it and cache it and display it, since we're online?
  89. # [02:20] <Hixie> or should we fail it? or show the fallback page?
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  91. # [02:21] <Hixie> i guess we should fetch it
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  95. # [02:53] <Hixie> an even more complicated problem is what to do if you go to the same page in two different tabs, if that page needs to be cached but it hasn't been cached yet
  96. # [03:02] <Hixie> sometimes i wish i could just write the spec in code
  97. # [03:02] <Hixie> there are some things that are just so much simpler to explain in code
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  99. # [03:14] <Hixie> ugh
  100. # [03:15] <Hixie> what happens if you go to A, which has manifest M, which downloads files B and C, where C takes a long time
  101. # [03:15] <Hixie> and before C finishes, but after B is added to the cache, you go to B, which has by this point changed to B'
  102. # [03:15] <Hixie> and B' also points to M
  103. # [03:16] <Hixie> right now B gets overridden by B'
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  107. # [03:35] <Hixie> much of the processing model is now defined too
  108. # [03:36] <Hixie> this is gonna be one almighty checkin once it goes in
  109. # [03:36] <Hixie> probably gonna take me an hour just to write the checkin message
  110. # [03:41] <Hixie> (it's a 2680 line patch so far)
  111. # [03:42] <Hixie> three major big-issues to fix before i check it in
  112. # [03:42] <Hixie> but those are gonna be relatively easy
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  122. # [05:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: sorry, had to run off suddenly earlier
  123. # [05:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think anything with a fallback page defined should be implicitly online whitelisted as well
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  142. # [09:37] <virtuelv> yuck, a document with two bodies, two dtd's
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  193. # [12:53] <zcorpan> does anyone know how IE handles <object>? just the parsing/DOM bit?
  194. # [12:55] <zcorpan> i can't figure it out
  195. # [12:59] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cobject%3Ex%3C%2Fobject%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Aw(document.getElementsByTagName(%22object%22)%5B0%5D)%3B%0D%0Awindow.setTimeout(%22w(document.getElementsByTagName('object')%5B0%5D)%22%2C%20100)%3B%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  196. # [13:01] <zcorpan> ok, so ie replaces the object with its contents after the "load" event (if it is to do so)
  197. # [13:03] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cobject%3E%3Ciframe%3E%3C%2Fobject%3Ex%0D%0A%3Cobject%3E%3Ciframe%3E%3Cparam%3E%3C%2Fobject%3Ey
  198. # [13:05] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cobject%3E%3Ciframe%3E%3C%2Fobject%3Ex%0D%0A%3Cobject%3E%3Ciframe%3E%3Cparam%3E%3C%2Fobject%3Ey%0D%0A%3Cobject%3E%3Ciframe%3E%20%3Cparam%3E%3C%2Fobject%3Ez
  199. # [13:16] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cobject%3Ex%3Cparam%20name%3D%22x%22%3Ex%3Cbr%3E%3C%2Fobject%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%20w(document.getElementsByTagName(%22object%22)%5B0%5D.innerHTML)%20%3C%2Fscript%3E
  200. # [13:16] <zcorpan> vs
  201. # [13:16] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cobject%3Ex%3Cparam%20name%3D%22%22%3Ex%3Cbr%3E%3C%2Fobject%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%20w(document.getElementsByTagName(%22object%22)%5B0%5D.innerHTML)%20%3C%2Fscript%3E
  202. # [13:17] <zcorpan> it seems ie has a special tokenization rules for <object>
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  214. # [14:38] <beowulf> hi
  215. # [14:38] <zcorpan> hi beowulf
  216. # [14:38] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-087-110.nc.res.rr.com)
  217. # [14:39] <beowulf> could someone point me to any discussion on mobile profiles in html5? the position paper said they were a bad idea and i just wondered if iI could read the arguments for/against that?
  218. # [14:41] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-comments/2007OctDec/thread.html
  219. # [14:42] <zcorpan> though those comments don't really discuss why profiling is good or bad
  220. # [14:42] <hsivonen> beowulf: profiling assumes that content should adapt to clients that suck
  221. # [14:43] <hsivonen> beowulf: the only property of handhelds that should be expected to suck permanently is the physical screen size
  222. # [14:43] <hsivonen> beowulf: and that's a CSS-level problem
  223. # [14:43] <hsivonen> beowulf: that is, media queries, not profiling HTML
  224. # [14:44] <hsivonen> beowulf: also, serving less content doesn't mean cutting down the language but cutting the content
  225. # [14:46] <beowulf> ok, i agree with that from the point of view of content authors
  226. # [14:46] <beowulf> but html5 isn't only aimed at content authors, it's aimed at browser manufacturers, no?
  227. # [14:47] <beowulf> s/html5/the html5 spec/
  228. # [14:47] <hsivonen> beowulf: yes, but there are browser vendors who make capable mobile browsers
  229. # [14:48] <beowulf> true, there are also browser manufacturers who make really incapbale mobile browsers, and i'm wondering if something can be done to help them focus on the right thing
  230. # [14:48] <beowulf> it's not neccessarily a html5 thing though
  231. # [14:49] <hsivonen> beowulf: why shouldn't they be expected to develop capable and competitive products instead of using a profile as an excuse not to?
  232. # [14:49] <beowulf> well that's fine as an ideal
  233. # [14:49] <beowulf> it doesn't seem to be working though
  234. # [14:50] <zcorpan> users can stop using browsers that suck
  235. # [14:50] <beowulf> not that mobile profiles are neccessarily the answer
  236. # [14:50] <zcorpan> then either they have to improve or they die
  237. # [14:50] <hsivonen> I don't buy mobile hardware that doesn't run at least one browser that's based on Gecko, WebKit or Opera
  238. # [14:51] <hsivonen> (Opera Mini counts as Opera in this case)
  239. # [14:51] <beowulf> i'm not convinced the majority make their mobile buying decisions in the same way
  240. # [14:51] <beowulf> though it would be nice for me
  241. # [14:52] <zcorpan> no, the majority don't use their mobile's browser at all
  242. # [14:52] <zcorpan> (i think)
  243. # [14:52] <beowulf> yes, in some cases because it sucks
  244. # [14:52] * Parts: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-103-3.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  245. # [14:52] <hsivonen> from the user point of view, a browser that doesn't work with the real Web is utterly uninteresting
  246. # [14:53] <hsivonen> so either you don't use the Web from a mobile or get a browser that can deal with the Web
  247. # [14:54] <hsivonen> the browser on my old phone was good for two things: 1) running test cases that showed that the browser lacks a real XML parser and 2) downloading a better browser
  248. # [14:54] <beowulf> :)
  249. # [14:54] <beowulf> (your point on XML parsers is well made)
  250. # [15:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: does minimo use an xml parser?
  251. # [15:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't know, but MicroB does
  252. # [15:00] <beowulf> MicroB?
  253. # [15:00] <hsivonen> beowulf: Nokia's Gecko port to Maemo
  254. # [15:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok, interesting
  255. # [15:03] <beowulf> so that's 3...
  256. # [15:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: though the current version has a bug that can cause the YSoD on well-formed pages
  257. # [15:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: have you tracked down the bug? :)
  258. # [15:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no, but I have reported it.
  259. # [15:09] <hsivonen> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2040
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  263. # [15:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: I notice that you now allow event-source as block or inline. What's the compat story with the lack of end tag?
  264. # [15:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: gotta love that editorial suggestions get bikeshedded :)
  265. # [15:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I just wanted to record a note with Hixie so that the spec is more useful for me in the future as I intend to scrape the element definitions for UI text
  266. # [15:25] <zcorpan> yep
  267. # [15:27] <beowulf> thanks for your help guys
  268. # [15:27] <beowulf> :)
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  271. # [15:28] <hsivonen> hmm. the content model for datalist is weird
  272. # [15:30] <zcorpan> why?
  273. # [15:32] <zcorpan> empty options or transparent
  274. # [15:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: typo. I meant datagrid
  275. # [15:34] <hsivonen> any block level but not table as the first child is weird
  276. # [15:34] <hsivonen> as it only bans trailing block content after a table
  277. # [15:34] <hsivonen> but otherwise you could have whatever where a table occurs somewhere
  278. # [15:37] <zcorpan> i haven't wrapped my head around datagrid yet
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  282. # [16:04] <zcorpan> hmm, about e4x and <!--
  283. # [16:04] <zcorpan> what's the value of being able to represent comment nodes with e4x?
  284. # [16:06] <zcorpan> i mean, it's incompatible with "<!--" being a js comment
  285. # [16:06] * Parts: Lachy (n=lachlan_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  286. # [16:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: isn't that handled by the script type parameter?
  287. # [16:08] <zcorpan> yeah. i don't like it
  288. # [16:11] <hsivonen> hmm. was <command> in <head> forbidden earlier?
  289. # [16:12] <zcorpan> don't think so
  290. # [16:12] <hsivonen> I've marked <command> in <head> nonHTMLizable but I don't find explanation in the spec.
  291. # [16:13] * hsivonen writes test case
  292. # [16:13] <zcorpan> the parsing section doesn't say what to do with it yet :)
  293. # [16:13] <zcorpan> treating unknown tags as empty elements when found in head (like firefox does) makes <command> in head nicer for legacy UAs
  294. # [16:14] <zcorpan> though i don't like firefox's way of deciding whether something is "in head" or not
  295. # [16:15] <zcorpan> which depends on whether there was an actual <head> start tag
  296. # [16:15] <hsivonen> yeah, this explains it: http://parsetree.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Ftest%2Fmoz%2Fcommand-in-head.html&submit=Print+Tree
  297. # [16:16] <hsivonen> I guess I should mark <event-source> in <head> nonHTMLizable as well
  298. # [16:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: it would really help if the spec had notes about non-obvious implications like this
  299. # [16:18] <zcorpan> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Ftest%2Fmoz%2Fcommand-in-head.html&showsource=yes
  300. # [16:18] <zcorpan> isn't there an error message missing?
  301. # [16:19] <hsivonen> whoa.
  302. # [16:19] <hsivonen> I've done something bad
  303. # [16:20] <hsivonen> I should prioritize regression testing
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  306. # [16:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixed. thanks
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  308. # [16:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the content model of datalist is not well-defined when used as a child of datagrid
  309. # [16:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm guessing it is the same as in static block context
  310. # [16:51] <hsivonen> I guess regression testing for validator.nu should exercise the whole thing through the Web service API
  311. # [16:51] <hsivonen> previous attemps to test only parser / schemas have failed to catch differences between the harness and actual deployment
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  315. # [18:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: the new elements and their integration with the parser and old elements hasn't been explained at all yet
  316. # [18:05] <Hixie> hsivonen: re datalist, send mail
  317. # [18:05] * Hixie goes to a meeting
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  333. # [19:41] <Hixie> hey, last call for role="" is out
  334. # [19:42] <Hixie> i wonder if it defines what role="" does
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  345. # [20:44] <Hixie> ok the offline stuff is now basically defined.
  346. # [20:44] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#offline
  347. # [20:44] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-offline.html#offline
  348. # [20:44] <Hixie> oh no wait i haven't defined the API yet.
  349. # [20:44] <Hixie> crap.
  350. # [20:44] <Hixie> duh
  351. # [20:45] <Hixie> but that's pretty trivial
  352. # [20:45] <Hixie> so if people want to start reviewing it, now's a good time.
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  354. # [20:48] <jwalden> Hixie: did any Moz people ever write up and propose navigator.isLocallyAvailable()?
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  377. # [23:13] <Hixie> jwalden: no
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  381. # Session Close: Sat Oct 06 00:00:00 2007

The end :)