/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-10-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 09 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  24. # [03:45] <Hixie> so anyone sent any last call feedback on the role attribute spec?
  25. # [03:45] <Hixie> (not zcorpan's, the "official" one)
  26. # [04:27] <karlUshi> Hixie: I will if I find time :/
  27. # [04:31] <Hixie> i was going to but i couldn't find anything in there that said what browsers should do
  28. # [04:31] <Hixie> so it seemed harmless
  29. # [04:31] <Hixie> (i mean, netscape 2.0 is a compliant role module implementation as far as i can tell)
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  32. # [04:51] <Hixie> in fact
  33. # [04:51] <Hixie> insofar as i can tell
  34. # [04:51] <Hixie> it is literally true that my desk is a compliant XHTML Role Attribute Module implementation
  35. # [04:52] <Hixie> (with apologies to dbaron)
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  38. # [06:08] <Hixie> well, at this rate i might even hit my target for this quarter!
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  40. # [06:14] <Hixie> hm, it strikes me that the offline application cache fallback concept isn't useful for doing fallback of anything but HTML or XML pages
  41. # [06:14] <Hixie> e.g. you can't usefully do fallback of CSS pages
  42. # [06:15] <Hixie> maybe we should have fallback pages be JS pages that execute when fetched or something
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  46. # [06:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: good standard(s?) compliant desk you have there :)
  47. # [07:09] <Hixie> i think my statement says more about "role" than about my desk
  48. # [07:10] <karlUshi> or about you more than the desk and the role
  49. # [07:11] <Hixie> ?
  50. # [07:12] <Hixie> i'm certainly eager to learn of anything that makes my statement incorrect
  51. # [07:12] <Hixie> (note that, as noted earlier, my comment was actually a reference to an infamous statement that dbaron made many years ago before a plenary meeting in boston)
  52. # [07:13] <dbaron> Though I did have to draw quotation marks on the sides of my desk to make that statement true, unfortunately.
  53. # [07:13] <Hixie> indeed
  54. # [07:14] <karlUshi> which might make the table more beautiful, more useful, more artistic, funnier, useless, depending on the context and the eyes of the beholder.
  55. # [07:15] <jruderman> what was the context of dbaron doing that? was there a spec that his desk followed just by having quotation marks?
  56. # [07:16] <dbaron> (Was I the one who said that? I wasn't even sure who said it.)
  57. # [07:16] <Hixie> yeah
  58. # [07:16] * Hixie wonders what karl is talking about
  59. # [07:16] <dbaron> jruderman, HTML4
  60. # [07:16] <Hixie> yeah, you said it when we passed through your dorm room iirc
  61. # [07:16] * karlUshi doesn't expect hixie to understand people down there :)
  62. # [07:17] <jruderman> dbaron: your desk was a compliant HTML4 UA? what were the quotes for?
  63. # [07:17] <dbaron> jruderman, conformant HTML4 UAs MUST render quotes around the contents of the Q element
  64. # [07:18] <jruderman> oh, and that was the only thing in the spec that was specific enough to apply to your desk?
  65. # [07:18] <jruderman> amazing
  66. # [07:18] <dbaron> jruderman, well, there are a bunch of statements about how certain things MUST be equivalent
  67. # [07:18] <dbaron> jruderman, but a UA that always does nothing handles everything equivalently
  68. # [07:18] <karlUshi> jruderman, indeed. amazing is the word.
  69. # [07:19] <dbaron> I'm not sure if we ever went through the spec to double-check, though...
  70. # [07:19] <Hixie> one of the only other requirements in html4 is that the UA not assume a default encoding... but i think you can argue your desk doesn't assume any encoding
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  72. # [07:31] <gsnedders> dbaron: but surely you aren't handling everything identically by doing nothing: you're handling them all with quotation marks around them?
  73. # [07:31] <Hixie> the spec doesn't say that's wrong as far as i can tell
  74. # [07:32] <dbaron> it doesn't *do* anything
  75. # [07:32] <gsnedders> No, I don't see anything wrong with that.
  76. # [07:33] <gsnedders> dbaron: it does something: it shows quotation marks, surely?
  77. # [07:34] <dbaron> that's like saying your computer shows a power button in response to your HTML
  78. # [07:34] <gsnedders> I guess.
  79. # [07:37] <gsnedders> Anyone want to make an HTML5 compliant desk?
  80. # [07:37] <Hixie> if anyone does, i recommend getting on with it, it'll become orders of magnitude harder as soon as i start writing the rendering section
  81. # [07:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: peh! just minor technical challenges, that's all :)
  82. # [07:42] <Hixie> it's already pretty difficult
  83. # [07:42] <Hixie> especially if you support scripting
  84. # [07:43] * gsnedders points at that corner of the desk for document.write() support
  85. # [07:43] <Hixie> does the corner have a computer on it? :-)
  86. # [07:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: no, two corners have speakers, one has paper, and the last has a copy of Trainspotting on it.
  87. # [07:44] <Hixie> does your desk have scripting disabled then? :_P
  88. # [07:44] <gsnedders> no, I just plan on implementing it in the far right corner :)
  89. # [07:46] <Hixie> i think i found a way in which a desk is not a compliant HTML5 UA
  90. # [07:47] <Hixie> i think HTML5 requires that UAs allow users to follow links
  91. # [07:47] * Hixie verifies this claim
  92. # [07:47] * gsnedders gets post-it note, and points at the desk at the other end of the room
  93. # [07:48] <gsnedders> (this is actually an interesting POV to look for any holes in the sec)
  94. # [07:48] <gsnedders> *spec
  95. # [07:48] <gsnedders> probably technically rather pointless, though, even for what changes might need to be made
  96. # [07:48] <Hixie> ah no, that's a should
  97. # [07:48] <karlUshi> http://www.mobilewhack.com/microsoft-coffee-table.jpg
  98. # [07:48] * gsnedders removes post-it note
  99. # [07:49] <gsnedders> karlUshi: that's cheating.
  100. # [07:49] <karlUshi> ;) I'm a user
  101. # [07:49] <Hixie> aha!
  102. # [07:49] <Hixie> i have found a way in which a desk isn't compliant!
  103. # [07:49] <Hixie> (though this may be a bug in html5)
  104. # [07:49] <gsnedders> karlUshi: I had thought of such things, though.
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  107. # [07:49] <Hixie> if you have a document with <link rel="stylesheet" href="..."> with no type="" attribute, the UA must fetch the resource
  108. # [07:49] <karlUshi> gsnedders: nobody defined yet what was a desk
  109. # [07:50] <Hixie> though i guess that we could just say the desk has no network, and therefore will fail network checks
  110. # [07:50] <Hixie> hm
  111. # [07:50] <Hixie> karlUshi: the original desk in this discussion was a very specific desk in dbaron's dorm room
  112. # [07:50] <karlUshi> which makes the geekery dick contest :) pointless
  113. # [07:51] <gsnedders> karlUshi: "desk |desk| noun a piece of furniture with a flat or sloped surface and typically with drawers, at which one can read, write, or do other work." (which annoyingly makes MS Surface a desk)
  114. # [07:51] <Hixie> (that is, it wasn't an arbitrary desk. nor, for what it's worth, is this hypothetical -- the discussion was a very relevant argument regarding spec quality at the time)
  115. # [07:51] <karlUshi> ;)
  116. # [07:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: can we not just get a person to go and get the stylesheet?
  117. # [07:52] <Hixie> gsnedders: the desk certainly isn't a compliant CSS UA
  118. # [07:52] <dbaron> of course, the person is required to get the style sheet and tap it on the desk in morse code, just like the document
  119. # [07:52] <dbaron> we didn't say the desk supports http
  120. # [07:52] <dbaron> just HTML
  121. # [07:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: we aren't attempting to be compliant CSS, are we?
  122. # [07:52] <Hixie> yeah
  123. # [07:52] <Hixie> gsnedders: true
  124. # [07:52] <gsnedders> dbaron: yeah, so we can have Human Transportation of Text Protocol!
  125. # [07:53] <gsnedders> (sorry, rather bad back-acronym, but it was the first I came up with)
  126. # [07:56] <Hixie> i think, under certain conditions (rendering section ignored, scripting disabled, not a conformance checker, not a document producer) it may be possible to classify a desk as a conforming HTML5 ua
  127. # [07:57] <Hixie> which makes sense, i mean we have to allow an empty script to be a valid data mining tool
  128. # [07:57] <Hixie> but i guess this comes from having more conformance classes than html4
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  132. # [10:07] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  133. # [10:07] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
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  145. # [11:16] <hsivonen> I'd be interested in finding out what visual features are considered "must have" in North American closed captioning
  146. # [11:17] <hsivonen> when I compare European (or Nordic at least) open subtitling practices with the W3C timed text spec, I see vast feature creep in the W3C spec
  147. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - so if I have my checker install in /opt/checker and I create a "foo" subdirectory, and I do "build run" from within /opt/checker, then the checker you be able to access the files in foo at the URL http://localhost:8888/foo/ -- right?
  148. # [11:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh. no, there's no serving of local files at all
  149. # [11:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: serving local files comes with access control issues and all that
  150. # [11:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so the Jetty setup only serves data generated in the servlet
  151. # [11:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in my deployment, I use Apache for serving flat files
  152. # [11:27] * MikeSmith remembers now
  153. # [11:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is this a problem? what kind of setup would you like?
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  155. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - no, no problem. I realize now that (using Apache to serve local files) was what I was doing before too (before my hard drive crashed and lost all my data)
  156. # [11:29] <hsivonen> a hard drive crash sound bad :-(
  157. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - wasn't so bad. I had most of my data backed up. But it crashed just before I had to travel -- two weeks of really unpleasant business travel, which I've just come back from. So, sorry for being daft. Haven't quite gotten back to normal yet.
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  181. # [17:18] * gsnedders wonders how well he did in the computing test
  182. # [17:23] <zcorpan> gsnedders: what did you write for the ascii and unicode questions? :)
  183. # [17:23] <gsnedders> zcorpan: didn't come up, sadly.
  184. # [17:24] <zcorpan> :(
  185. # [17:24] <gsnedders> zcorpan: nothing wrong came up. nothing interesting to write.
  186. # [17:24] <gsnedders> (well, I suppose I could've written at the end that my hand hurts)
  187. # [17:24] <zcorpan> ok
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  196. # [18:30] * gsnedders ponders
  197. # [18:31] <gsnedders> en-gb isn't really specific enough, as there are plenty of things that are totally different in meaning in Scotland and England
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  255. # [21:31] <Hixie> kingryan: it didn't work
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  257. # [21:31] <Hixie> oh
  258. # [21:31] <Hixie> ok, well, i'll tell him later
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  260. # [21:36] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T7e85.t.pppool.de) ("night")
  261. # [21:38] <Hixie> oh i think i see the error
  262. # [21:44] * gsnedders sighs at unicode
  263. # [21:45] * gsnedders sighs at how stupidly expensive a function call is in PHP
  264. # [21:47] <Philip`> gsnedders: You could pass the PHP code through a C preprocessor and rewrite the functions as macros
  265. # [21:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: meh.
  266. # [21:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: the function that is called so many times is stupidly small, I may as well just repeat it several times
  267. # [21:50] <gsnedders> heh. how ironic.
  268. # [21:50] <gsnedders> it's calling is_int() checking that the parameter is of the correct type that really slows it down
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  270. # [21:54] * gsnedders wants proper type-hinting in PHP
  271. # [21:54] <hsivonen> it bothers me that I don't know what timed text features are essential for captioning for the deaf and which features are gratuitous feature creep
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  274. # [22:15] <gsnedders> hsivonen: you want to see what I've been working on regarding Unicode support for PHP?
  275. # [22:19] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I'll assume you'll say yes due to your interest in unicode in PHP, and link you to <http://pastebin.ca/731146> :)
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  280. # [22:27] <jgraham> I am finding writing a release announcement for html5lib 0.10 much much harder than it ought to be
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  285. # [22:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: I have a habit of getting others to write such things :)
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  287. # [22:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well I guess I could have tried that
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  293. # [23:02] <jgraham> Would anyone with a blog login like to look at my html5lib release announcement for mistakes, style, etc?
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The end :)