/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-11-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> it's surprising how many scripts have pretty unique filenames
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> (a strong argument against namespacing being needed, imho)
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> and that's in a space with no need for unique names, given that we have domains and so forth to disambiguate
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  7. # [00:02] <Lachy> I've made a start on the document http://lachy.id.au/temp/html5-authors.html
  8. # [00:02] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.180.114.137)
  9. # [00:04] <Hixie> "and un XHTML examples"
  10. # [00:04] <Hixie> s/un/in/
  11. # [00:04] <Lachy> fixed in local copy
  12. # [00:05] <Hixie> you can probably cut a lot out of the Terminology section
  13. # [00:05] <Lachy> yeah, I know. I cut out a bit already
  14. # [00:05] <Lachy> going to rewrite some of it to be more author-friendly
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> in fact you should probably assume that nobody will read that section, they'll just jump to the subsection they care about, and thus the language should be unambiguous even without the terminology section
  16. # [00:06] <Lachy> ok, good point
  17. # [00:06] <Hixie> you have the advantage that you don't need it to be perfectly defined, since this isn't normative
  18. # [00:06] <Lachy> ok
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  20. # [00:26] <Hixie> wtf is this tmv11.js thing
  21. # [00:26] <Hixie> i can find lots of sites using tmv11.js, but they're all different
  22. # [00:26] <Hixie> yet the name seems unlikely to be coincidentally chosen by multiple different groups
  23. # [00:26] <Hixie> http://www.postimees.ee/lib/tmv11.js is one
  24. # [00:27] <Hixie> i wanna see avenue q again.
  25. # [00:27] <Hixie> er, wrong channel.
  26. # [00:27] <Hixie> http://www.diskusjon.no/tmv11.js
  27. # [00:27] <hsivonen> looks like a statistics tracker script
  28. # [00:28] <Hixie> yeah but normally i can track these down to someone who made it
  29. # [00:28] <Hixie> oh hey they both point to statistik-gallup.net
  30. # [00:28] <Hixie> 'course that returns a 404
  31. # [00:30] <Dashiva> To the web archive-mobile
  32. # [00:31] <Dashiva> Or not, robots.txt'd
  33. # [00:32] <Hixie> i'll just call it the statistik-gallup.net tracking script
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  36. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Heh, I forgot all the heading elements in that HTML element quiz
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  38. # [00:53] <Hixie> i wanna see the results for that quiz
  39. # [00:53] <Hixie> which elements do people remember?
  40. # [00:54] <Dashiva> Well, even though I forgot option, I still remember to use it :)
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  42. # [00:57] <Hixie> 30 seconds left
  43. # [00:57] <Hixie> 18 elements remain
  44. # [00:58] <Hixie> hmmm
  45. # [00:58] <Philip`> They should make it like The Typing of the Dead, so you have to type in HTML element names to fend off hordes of zombies
  46. # [00:58] <Hixie> i forgot BASE, BASEFONT, BDO, DFN, DIR, KBD, LABEL, MENU, NOFRAMES, NOSCRIPT, OPTGROUP, PRE, Q, SAMP, SUB, SUP, TITLE
  47. # [00:59] <Dashiva> I got some of the obscure ones like bdo just because I remember them as obscure :)
  48. # [00:59] <Hixie> heh
  49. # [00:59] <Hixie> i'm just bad at remembering things like this
  50. # [00:59] <Hixie> i'm amazed i got 74
  51. # [01:00] <Hixie> wtf is http://cpro.baidu.com/cpro/ui/cp.js
  52. # [01:03] <Dashiva> I'd guess it's for embedding flash in an iframe based on that big function
  53. # [01:05] <Dashiva> Assembles lots of vars, then pushes them as query string to a PHP script used as src for the iframe...
  54. # [01:07] <Philip`> The variables like cpro_client and cpro_h look like inputs the script, so presumably they're set before this script is called
  55. # [01:07] <Philip`> *inputs to the script
  56. # [01:08] <Dashiva> Yeah, probably local config done similar to google's urchin thing
  57. # [01:09] <Philip`> http://www.516545.com/bbs/archiver/?tid-280.html
  58. # [01:10] <Hixie> i just called it Baidu.
  59. # [01:11] <Hixie> wow, a lot of pages refer directly to http://s.wordpress.com/wp-content/plugins/highlight/shCore.js
  60. # [01:14] <Philip`> I imagine Baidu has plenty of other scripts, so maybe it's better to call it "Baidu contextual advertising" or something
  61. # [01:15] <Hixie> that's ok, i have lots of things that share the same name
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  63. # [01:17] * Philip` wonders if Baidu offers language translation services too
  64. # [01:18] <othermaciej> what does shCore.js do?
  65. # [01:20] <Philip`> It highlights
  66. # [01:20] <Hixie> syntax highlighter plugin for wordpress
  67. # [01:21] <Hixie> oddly, that url seems to be addressed more often than any other wordpress urls
  68. # [01:22] <Hixie> i'm amazed at how many of these scripts are for stats collection
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  76. # [01:57] <Hixie> i wish i spoke russian
  77. # [01:57] <Hixie> anyone know anything about http://autocontext.begun.ru/autocontext.js ?
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  79. # [01:59] * Lachy is disabling comments on old whatwg blog posts.
  80. # [01:59] <Hixie> too much spam?
  81. # [02:00] <Lachy> I'm getting annoyed with the constant moderation requests slipping through the spam filter
  82. # [02:00] <Hixie> can we point people to help@whatwg.org or something in the "comments are closed" message?
  83. # [02:00] <Lachy> it's only about 5 per day that get through (4910 sitting in the Akismet spam filter, though)
  84. # [02:01] <Lachy> I supppose I could update the template
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  86. # [02:02] <Hixie> i think it'd be helpful, so that we don't lose potential contributors
  87. # [02:06] <Hixie> man, this is mind numbing work
  88. # [02:07] <Lachy> I also need to delete the bogus users that have registered. I cleared about 50 of them a few weeks ago and about a hundred have registered :-)
  89. # [02:07] <Hixie> i have seen so much bad JS today
  90. # [02:07] <Hixie> heh
  91. # [02:07] <Hixie> i wouldn't worry too much about bogus users
  92. # [02:07] <Hixie> do they cause any harm?
  93. # [02:07] <Hixie> not that i want to discourage you from maintaining the blog, i just don't want you to burn out doing it :-)
  94. # [02:08] <Lachy> although it's difficult to tell if some are legit, the obvious ones like "alltickets" and "handbagcollection" can go :-)
  95. # [02:08] * Hixie stares at http://www230.clickeye.cn/common/clickeye.js
  96. # [02:08] <Hixie> Lachy: hehe
  97. # [02:09] <Lachy> not much effort, it only took about 20 min to disable comments and should only take about 5 to sort out the bogus users
  98. # [02:09] <Hixie> k :-)
  99. # [02:09] <Hixie> i went it a few months ago and promoted those names i recognised
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  101. # [02:12] <Hixie> does "export/sites/www/shared/scripts" mean anything to anyone?
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  105. # [02:16] <Lachy> all done
  106. # [02:18] <Hixie> i have labelled 435 src="" attribute values
  107. # [02:19] <Hixie> and am about ready to shoot myself
  108. # [02:19] <Hixie> maybe i should take a break!
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  110. # [02:21] <Lachy> I updated the authoring document with sections about the body and section elements
  111. # [02:21] <Lachy> http://lachy.id.au/temp/html5-authors.html
  112. # [02:22] <Lachy> it'll be similar to the spec, but with extra sections for talking about start/end tags, i18n and accessibility
  113. # [02:24] <Philip`> "XHTML Example: <img src="image" alt="example">" - s/X//
  114. # [02:25] <Philip`> Also maybe s/image/image.png/ so it's more obvious what's going on
  115. # [02:25] <Lachy> ok. Then I should be consistent and use movie.ogv
  116. # [02:26] <Dashiva> Could always use file.ext to avoid specifics
  117. # [02:26] <Philip`> Why avoid specifics?
  118. # [02:26] <Hixie> oo, only two more days until the two questionnaires are up
  119. # [02:26] <Philip`> Incidentally, .ogv seems an odd choice since I mentally expand it to "Ogg Vorbis" which is totally wrong
  120. # [02:27] <Dashiva> Because some people might complain about the spec endorsing specific formats
  121. # [02:27] <Lachy> realistic examples using real file extensions is better
  122. # [02:27] <Hixie> people will complain regardless of what you do
  123. # [02:27] <Lachy> ogv is ogg vorbis
  124. # [02:27] <Hixie> might as well be helpful :-)
  125. # [02:27] <Philip`> Lachy: It seems to be Ogg Video
  126. # [02:27] <Lachy> (I think that's what I saw in that draft RFC for video/ogg)
  127. # [02:27] <Philip`> which is Theora more than Vorbis
  128. # [02:27] <Lachy> oh right, I meant ogg video
  129. # [02:28] <Dashiva> Hixie: Then I vote for mkv instead :P
  130. # [02:29] <Hixie> i vote for mpg :-)
  131. # [02:29] <Philip`> I think we should put videos in a PNG container, to get backward-compatibility with old UAs - they can still load the 600MB movie file and will just display the first frame
  132. # [02:29] <Hixie> Philip`: :-P
  133. # [02:29] <Philip`> (i.e. put the poster frame in the IDAT, and use decent compression in custom chunks for the actual video)
  134. # [02:30] <Philip`> It's not that insane, really
  135. # [02:30] <Lachy> Philip`, we could just use APNG for the video
  136. # [02:30] <Lachy> or GIF
  137. # [02:31] <Philip`> Lachy: That would be insane, since it's even worse than MJPEG compression :-p
  138. # [02:31] <Lachy> yeah but PNG is lossless compression, so it's better quality
  139. # [02:32] <webben_> Would be possible (I'm not talking about useful) to declare the HTML serialization of HTML5 in SGML terms? And if not, is there a handy list anywhere of fundamental incompatibilities that make that impossible?
  140. # [02:32] <Philip`> Good point - and you could use 16-bit colour channels if you want really excellent quality
  141. # [02:33] <Hixie> webben_: yes, you could describe a serialisation of html using any tree-based syntax
  142. # [02:33] <Hixie> webben_: you could describe a JSON serialisation, e.g.
  143. # [02:33] <webben_> no
  144. # [02:34] <webben_> I mean could you describe the HTML serialization (not fully, but compatibly) using an SGML declaration and DTD?
  145. # [02:34] <Hixie> oh, i see
  146. # [02:34] <Hixie> hmm
  147. # [02:34] <Hixie> probably not
  148. # [02:34] <Philip`> webben_: Does that include error handling, or only parsing conformant HTML-serialised character streams into the same tree as the HTML5 algorithm?
  149. # [02:34] <Hixie> it has some weirdass things
  150. # [02:34] <Lachy> Philip`, what about audio? AFAIK, PNG doesn't support audio tracks :-)
  151. # [02:34] <Hixie> you could probably get quite close
  152. # [02:34] <Hixie> but i doubt you could exactly define it
  153. # [02:35] <webben_> Philip`: I don't know enough about SGML-parsing conformance requirements to say.
  154. # [02:35] <Philip`> Lachy: Just define an Audio PNG extension
  155. # [02:35] <webben_> I'm not talking about expressing everything that html5 forbids necessarily, but perhaps everything it allows?
  156. # [02:35] <Philip`> Encode the audio track as a greyscale image, and stick that into the movie somewhere
  157. # [02:36] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0080.html
  158. # [02:40] <Hixie> webben_: there are weird things like the way we treat entities in <textarea> that i don't think you can describe
  159. # [02:40] <Hixie> in sgml
  160. # [02:40] <Hixie> but i could be wrong
  161. # [02:40] <Hixie> so i would answer "no" to your question
  162. # [02:40] <webben_> Hixie: OK. Thanks. :)
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  165. # [03:10] <Lachy> Hixie, re your post to public-html, does google really care about keeping documents small? I assume they realise that if it was really that really that important, the could save a whole heap just by cleaning up their homepage
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  176. # [06:38] <othermaciej> wow, I hadn't heard that Opera is opening a Mountain View office
  177. # [06:38] * othermaciej hopes he will get to meet Opera people more often
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  181. # [07:09] <Hixie> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/22/001228 - "
  182. # [07:09] <Hixie> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/22/001228 - "Ecma Receives 3,522 Comments on Open XML Standards
  183. # [07:09] <Hixie> pah
  184. # [07:09] <Hixie> html5 has received more comments than that
  185. # [07:12] <othermaciej> clearly there's a need for better marketing
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  214. # [10:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: OK if I allow any space characters in the space production for file upload accept: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#accept0 ?
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  218. # [11:05] <hsivonen> email sent
  219. # [11:05] <hsivonen> to public-html this time
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  231. # [12:05] <hsivonen> charset list and map coordinates to go...
  232. # [12:06] <hsivonen> aargh. a dependency on HTML4!
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  234. # [12:07] <hsivonen> "Authors must not specify an encoding other than UTF-8 or US-ASCII in the accept-charset attribute when the method used is get and the action indicates an HTTP resource." yay. that's a fun requirement
  235. # [12:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: the requirement depends on the document base URI
  236. # [12:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: hence, the document may cease to be conforming if you move it
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  242. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: regarding my email to public-html about accept-charset: it would help to get your current guess about where the requirements are headed
  243. # [13:16] <Lachy> hsivonen, allowing commas as separators in accept-charset makes sense because the value can then be consistent with the HTTP AcceptCharset header value
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  245. # [13:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: it still sucks from the SGML/XML/HTML design patterns point of view
  246. # [13:24] <Lachy> have you tested to see what browsers actually support?
  247. # [13:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: I have not
  248. # [13:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: same argument with <area coords>?
  249. # [13:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah
  250. # [13:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but too late
  251. # [13:25] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm always kinda hoping that someone else would reply to my messages with browser testing results :-)
  252. # [13:30] <hsivonen> while I'm at it: it also sucks that SVG allows commas in its coordinate lists
  253. # [13:38] <hsivonen> I wonder whose idea it was to allow single quotes as part of the IANA charset token syntax...
  254. # [13:40] <hsivonen> how do I output <var> or <samp> from mediawiki? should I just settle for <i> and <code>?
  255. # [13:43] <hsivonen> ISO reaches out with advocacy FAQs: http://www.iso.org/iso/support/faqs/faqs_widely_used_standards/widely_used_standards_other/date_and_time_format.htm
  256. # [13:43] <hsivonen> now if they could serve their PDFs without zip wrappers...
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  261. # [14:59] <Philip`> http://www.iso.org/iso/date.jpg - it's weird how my brain can decode the tiny letters there, but if I zoom in then it turns into a meaningless lump of grey pixels
  262. # [14:59] <Philip`> (It's also weird how they don't link to a larger version of that image)
  263. # [15:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: damn you and your eye-sight!
  264. # [15:03] <virtuelv> Philip`: heh. Same experience here
  265. # [15:16] <Philip`> X3D appears to have a lot more undefined behaviour than what web browsers seem to appreciate :-(
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  267. # [16:36] <Lachy> Philip`, I have seen a larger version of that image previously. Though I have no idea where to find it
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  288. # [20:47] <jruderman> Philip`: zooming with smoothing or with nearest-neighbor?
  289. # [20:47] <jruderman> Philip`: with smoothing, zooming doesn't seem to hurt the readability for me
  290. # [20:48] <hsivonen> I could use examples of invalid IDNs, but the obvious google terms don't help me
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  292. # [20:54] <hsivonen> Do I understand correctly that there is no proper spec for IDN-aware mailto: IRI scheme?
  293. # [21:05] <hsivonen> am I right that "foo@" is an invalid email address? or is there something I'm missing?
  294. # [21:05] <hsivonen> hmm. I think I have established that the Jena IRI library doesn't do proper scheme-aware mailto: IRI validation
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  296. # [21:15] <Philip`> jruderman: Nearest-neighbour (i.e. what Opera and FF3 do)
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  298. # [21:24] <hsivonen> does anyone remember off-hand whether XMPP addresses are defined by reference to RFC 2822 or whether it is a similar-looking standalone syntax?
  299. # [21:25] <gsnedders> I want to say a subset of RFC 2822, but I might be wrong
  300. # [21:25] <hsivonen> http://www.xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc3920.html section 3.1.
  301. # [21:25] <hsivonen> looks like they defined their own
  302. # [21:26] <hsivonen> in a remarkably sane way I might add
  303. # [21:26] <gsnedders> hsivonen: doesn't 2822 make anything look sane? :)
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  308. # [22:44] * Philip` wonders why X3D uses the "DEF" attribute for IDs, instead of "id" or "xml:id" or something
  309. # [22:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: are they really IDs?
  310. # [22:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: CML makes id non-ID
  311. # [22:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: The schema says <xs:attribute name="DEF" type="xs:ID"> so I assume that means they're IDs
  312. # [23:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  313. # [23:00] <Philip`> I guess getElementById won't work, which is a pain
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  317. # [23:28] <Philip`> Is XPath like //*[DEF="foo"] likely to be horribly slow in Firefox/Opera?
  318. # [23:33] <Dashiva> Compared to what? gEBTN and attribute checking?
  319. # [23:34] <Philip`> Compared to precomputing a hash of DEF->object, I guess
  320. # [23:35] <Philip`> I suppose it depends on how many lookups I'm doing and how big the document is, and I've got no idea about those at the moment, so I should forget about it unless it becomes a problem in practice
  321. # [23:36] <Dashiva> Sounds like a plan. No need to overoptimize something that might not even be a bottleneck
  322. # [23:36] <Philip`> Also no need to optimise something that will probably never get anywhere near completion either :-)
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  324. # Session Close: Fri Nov 23 00:00:00 2007

The end :)