/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 03 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [01:50] * othermaciej wonders why it is not grossly offensive when Dr. Olaf suggests smell-o-vision
  16. # [01:51] <Philip`> Probably because of the context of the suggestion
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  18. # [02:14] <othermaciej> a long email that no one wants to read all the way through?
  19. # [02:15] <Dashiva> othermaciej: Obviously because the formal complaint has already been made, no need to dupe it :P
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  44. # [05:40] <Hixie> wow, whatwg@whatwg.org passed 800 members
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  76. # [09:55] <Hixie> i'm still getting e-mails from thursday
  77. # [09:55] <Hixie> poor ailed mailbox
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  79. # [10:24] <Hixie> right well the body of my annotation script is done
  80. # [10:24] <Hixie> now i just need the serverside
  81. # [10:24] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
  82. # [10:25] <annevk2> where is it again?
  83. # [10:25] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
  84. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie - yup
  85. # [10:26] <Hixie> MikeSmith: did you get a chance to the look at the server side of the annotation stuff by any chance?
  86. # [10:26] <Hixie> annevk: http://damowmow.com/playground/spec-annotation/001.html
  87. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> Hixie - nope, not much
  88. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> can make time this week unless you beat me to it
  89. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> I've had a few other things on my hands the last few weeks
  90. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> and weekends
  91. # [10:28] <Hixie> k
  92. # [10:28] <Hixie> no worries
  93. # [10:29] <annevk> it doesn't work in Opera
  94. # [10:29] <annevk> I get some errors in the console, such as 'backround' is not a CSS property
  95. # [10:29] <Hixie> reload
  96. # [10:29] <annevk> "Fatal network error: Not Found"
  97. # [10:29] <Hixie> yup
  98. # [10:29] <Hixie> no server side yet
  99. # [10:30] <annevk> when this tool works it will be awesome
  100. # [10:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: encodeAttributeValue and encodeTextValue need to use regexp with the "g" flag to replace all occurances
  101. # [10:30] <Hixie> (it also doesn't support the UI for creating an account, logging in, checking teh history of an entry, and viewing a user's history)
  102. # [10:30] <Hixie> zcorpan: good catch
  103. # [10:31] <Hixie> fixed
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  111. # [11:23] <othermaciej> meh
  112. # [11:23] * othermaciej can't sleep
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  143. # [18:27] <Catfish_Man> annevk: around?
  144. # [18:28] * anne-mac is
  145. # [18:28] <Catfish_Man> fair enough :)
  146. # [18:29] <Catfish_Man> had a question about getElementsByClassName case sensitivity; Specifically, I'm unconvinced that the case insensitive matching quirk shouldn't apply to it, for two reasons. The main one is that it seems really confusing to authors to have a situation where you attempt to match the exact same class(es) using two different methods, and get different results
  147. # [18:30] <Catfish_Man> the secondary not-actually-a-good-reason reason is that it's a lot harder for me to implement it inconsistently without a slight performance regression ;)
  148. # [18:30] <Catfish_Man> I've spoken with Hixie and sayrer (the moz implementer of it) and neither of them cares one way or the other, so I was curious what you thought
  149. # [18:31] <anne-mac> i guess i'm ok with it, if everyone is changing
  150. # [18:32] <Catfish_Man> is that a "don't care" or a "reluctant but willing"? If it's the latter, what's the reasoning? just avoidance of new quirks?
  151. # [18:33] <anne-mac> yeah, more if/else is annoying
  152. # [18:33] <anne-mac> although I know that in case of (at least) WebKit it's the reverse, so...
  153. # [18:33] <Catfish_Man> I'm actually surprised it's more if/else elsewhere as well
  154. # [18:33] <Catfish_Man> it seems like if the matching code is shared, in general the if would be as well
  155. # [18:34] * anne-mac has only seen the WebKit patch
  156. # [18:34] <anne-mac> so maybe it's not such a big deal
  157. # [18:36] <zcorpan> keeping the case-insensitive quirk for all APIs that interact with classes makes sense to me. hmm, i wonder how svg's class="" works in quirks mode
  158. # [18:37] <Catfish_Man> zcorpan: hm, good question :)
  159. # [18:38] <Catfish_Man> brb, switching to wireless
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  163. # [18:56] <anne-mac> quirks mode affects SVG too
  164. # [18:57] <anne-mac> in Safari 3 and Opera 9.5 at least
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  170. # [19:04] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/svg/quirks/001.htm
  171. # [19:04] <zcorpan> also firefox
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  185. # [21:09] * gsnedders smacks his head reading RFC2616
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  187. # [21:16] <Philip`_> gsnedders: You should look where you're going instead of reading RFCs while walking, and then you'd be less likely to bash yourself on low-hanging obstacles
  188. # [21:16] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
  189. # [21:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: or just try and make myself shorter
  190. # [21:20] <Philip`> That would work too, unless you become short enough that you keep hitting the undersides of tables
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  192. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: well, just make me even shorter
  193. # [21:23] <gsnedders> :)
  194. # [21:23] <gsnedders> oh, wait, the undersides of doors…
  195. # [21:23] <gsnedders> hmm…
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  213. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: ping
  214. # [22:35] <Lachy> can anyone recommend an easy to use svn client for OSX?
  215. # [22:35] * gsnedders resists the temptation to say the CLI client :P
  216. # [22:36] <gsnedders> (honestly, having spent a year or so using various GUIs, I concluded the CLI was by far the best)
  217. # [22:36] <Lachy> CLI = command line interface?
  218. # [22:37] <gsnedders> yeah
  219. # [22:37] <Lachy> I'll have to learn how to use it properly
  220. # [22:38] <Lfe> If you're into TextMate - it has a svn bundle which is (imo) "ok"
  221. # [22:38] * virtuelv is tempted to say "Don't use OS X"
  222. # [22:39] * Dashiva is tempted to say "lol"
  223. # [22:39] <virtuelv> but yeah, I'd go with the command line client
  224. # [22:39] <virtuelv> 'svn help' is a good place to start
  225. # [22:39] <gsnedders> (I'd go with the command line client on any POSIX OS)
  226. # [22:40] <virtuelv> gsnedders: well, for most of my Ubuntu use, I've found both esvn and rapidsvn to be good
  227. # [22:40] <gsnedders> virtuelv: I don't really like either :P
  228. # [22:42] <Philip`> There's KDESvn too
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  230. # [22:42] <Philip`> which seems quite like TortoiseSVN, though less good
  231. # [22:45] <Lachy> TortoiseSVN is awesome. That's what I use on windows
  232. # [22:46] <Lachy> one option is that I just run TortoiseSVN on Windows using VMWare on my mac
  233. # [22:46] <Lachy> though it might not be such a bad idea to learn the command line client
  234. # [22:46] <Philip`> You could use Mercurial instead of SVN, and then you wouldn't be tempted by all these fancy graphical tools
  235. # [22:46] <Hixie> gsnedders: pong
  236. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Hixie: see what I said yesterday about Content-Type, or should I repeat it?
  237. # [22:47] <gsnedders> yeah, Mercurial > SVN
  238. # [22:47] <Philip`> Lachy: The command line is basically "svn up", "svn diff | less", "svn commit", so it's not that hard :-)
  239. # [22:48] <Hixie> gsnedders: hmm
  240. # [22:49] <virtuelv> Philip`: sometimes you don't have a choice of VCS
  241. # [22:49] <gsnedders> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20071202#l-202
  242. # [22:49] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah i saw the question, was just thinking about it
  243. # [22:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: just for anyone else interested, more than anything, I thought that was what the hmm was :)
  244. # [22:50] <Hixie> :-)
  245. # [22:50] <Hixie> gsnedders: i would say that on the long run it is something we'd want to in the http spec, but that on the short run on a purely pragmatic basis we probably want it in the html5 spec for now, since it'll get more review that way
  246. # [22:53] * gsnedders sighs at the irony: to reverse engineer error handling needed for HTTP an HTTP implementation is needed :\
  247. # [22:58] <Dashiva> It's hard to reverse engineer something without an implementation :)
  248. # [22:58] <gsnedders> That's true.
  249. # [22:58] <Philip`> When you don't have an implementation but need one, that's just engineering
  250. # [22:59] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@203-217-91-18.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  251. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Now, a dilemma: IIS is "quite strict" because of earlier security holes, but other servers aren't; clients aren't strict at all — do I use the same code-path for both requests and responses which isn't strict and risk IIS never implementing it?
  252. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Or do I add a second code-path for requests that is more strict?
  253. # [23:02] <gsnedders> Hixie: maybe I'll merge it in after -00 is published
  254. # [23:02] <Philip`> By "risk", I assume you mean "increase the already-significant risk of"?
  255. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: I got the impression that if it doesn't make it more lax (or, possibly slightly moreso than currently), they probably would
  256. # [23:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: Ah, okay, that sounds reasonable
  257. # [23:04] <gsnedders> (But that's purely my impression from private discussions, so it may be totally wrong :P)
  258. # [23:08] <gsnedders> Part of me wants to only have one code-path as that will reduce the attack area, but knowing that it won't ever be used by IIS is big issue with that.
  259. # [23:08] <gsnedders> It's also less work for me, which is always nice
  260. # [23:21] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@203-217-91-18.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Remote closed the connection)
  261. # [23:21] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  262. # [23:21] <hsivonen> so I gave a presentation on HTML5 to a handful of interested people
  263. # [23:22] <hsivonen> among the feedback I got:
  264. # [23:22] <hsivonen> HTML5 is already a couple of years late considering competition from Flash and Silverlight
  265. # [23:22] <hsivonen> and
  266. # [23:23] <hsivonen> concern about the W3C having dropped the development of browser-relevant stuff (except CSS) for quite a while
  267. # [23:23] <Hixie> yup, that's why we started
  268. # [23:24] <Lachy> I've tried the svn command line, but when I try "svn commit", this is the error I get:
  269. # [23:24] <Lachy> svn: Commit failed (details follow):
  270. # [23:24] <Lachy> svn: Could not use external editor to fetch log message; consider setting the $SVN_EDITOR environment variable or using the --message (-m) or --file (-F) options
  271. # [23:24] <Lachy> svn: None of the environment variables SVN_EDITOR, VISUAL or EDITOR is set, and no 'editor-cmd' run-time configuration option was found
  272. # [23:24] <Hixie> because the w3c wasn't doing anything and we saw that we were getting competition and we had to response
  273. # [23:25] <Philip`> hsivonen: Were they already concerned, or were they unaware of problems and only became concerned because of your presentation?
  274. # [23:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: unclear
  275. # [23:25] <Philip`> Lachy: It's lucky that the error message tells you several ways to solve the error yourself ;-)
  276. # [23:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: I got a feeling that the audience didn't have a precise idea about the events that have lead to HTML5
  277. # [23:26] <Lachy> how do I set the $SVN_EDITOR environment variable and what do I set it to?
  278. # [23:27] <Hixie> Lachy: just use the -m parameter
  279. # [23:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: but I also got the impression that people had observed spec stagnation on their own
  280. # [23:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: get them to speak to the "html4 is fine, why are we changing it" camp
  281. # [23:28] <hober> and the "html4 was big enough, we should dump the new parts of html5 (like parsing)" camp
  282. # [23:28] <Lachy> Hixie, thanks
  283. # [23:28] <Philip`> Lachy: Hmm, I can't remember how you set it on OS X, but it's probably via some command in a ~/.bashrc or something
  284. # [23:28] <Philip`> (I can't remember how you do it on Linux either)
  285. # [23:28] <Lachy> -m worked
  286. # [23:30] <Philip`> Lachy: I like having the external editor thing so it can show what files it's going to check in, and I can stop it if it's doing something stupid, but it's easy to revert mistakes so that's probably just me being unnecessarily fussy :-)
  287. # [23:30] <Hixie> that's what 'svn diff' is for
  288. # [23:30] <Hixie> i always diff before committing
  289. # [23:31] <jgraham_> Lachy: presumably export SVN_EDITOR=emacs or something would work, no?
  290. # [23:31] <Philip`> Hixie: That introduces a race condition - my other self might change some files in the meantime and I wouldn't notice
  291. # [23:31] <Philip`> jgraham_: s/emacs/vim/
  292. # [23:31] <hsivonen> oh and most of the questions I got were about video codec patent licensing, MPEG-LA and codec pluggability in upcoming browsers
  293. # [23:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah, and s/emacs/nano/ :)
  294. # [23:32] <jgraham_> nano?!
  295. # [23:32] <gsnedders> nano.
  296. # [23:32] <Hixie> nano is awesame
  297. # [23:33] <Hixie> for small edits
  298. # [23:33] <hsivonen> jgraham_: GNU pico
  299. # [23:33] <gsnedders> totally awesame.
  300. # [23:33] <Philip`> I like how Gentoo encourages nano by default
  301. # [23:33] <Hixie> but emacs is what one has to use for real work
  302. # [23:33] <jgraham_> I guess for this kind of thing nano is actually quite sensible
  303. # [23:33] <hober> for small edits, mg is pretty nice, since it's so similar to emacs
  304. # [23:33] <Philip`> since it's actually reasonably easy to use
  305. # [23:33] <Hixie> Philip`: i actually have that problem with the html5 spec, because the spec generation takes so long that i edit the spec before it's done (and before i see the diff to commit)
  306. # [23:33] <gsnedders> hsivonen: GNU pico? doesn't exist…
  307. # [23:34] <gsnedders> hsivonen: GNU nano is a pico clone
  308. # [23:34] <hsivonen> gsnedders: nano is the GNU approximation of pico
  309. # [23:34] <Hixie> that's what he meant
  310. # [23:34] <gsnedders> meh.
  311. # [23:34] <gsnedders> not clear.
  312. # [23:34] <Philip`> Not a very good approximation - they were off by three orders of magnitude
  313. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: which is what confused me so much.
  314. # [23:34] * jgraham_ has accidentally started an editor war
  315. # [23:34] <Hixie> Philip`: i worked around that by working on a different file, which is copied over to my working copy when i generate the spec, so that even if i do edit the spec, the file that's diffed is the one i commit :_)
  316. # [23:34] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I thought jgraham_ was asking what nano was
  317. # [23:35] * hsivonen has trouble telling apart rhetorical and actual question marks at this hour
  318. # [23:35] <hsivonen> bed time
  319. # [23:35] <hsivonen> nn
  320. # [23:35] <Hixie> nn
  321. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: what does the generation actually do?
  322. # [23:35] * gsnedders waves to hsivonen
  323. # [23:35] <Hixie> gsnedders: cross-refs and section numbering, mostly
  324. # [23:36] <Hixie> gsnedders: also, sticking on the header
  325. # [23:36] <gsnedders> ah
  326. # [23:36] <gsnedders> anyone have any thoughts about using two code paths instead of one for HTTP request/response parsing?
  327. # [23:42] <Philip`> gsnedders: Would that be written as two separate versions of the parser, or would it work as one with "If (some condition), this is an error. Do (something crazy for legacy compatibility)" and a global "If you are a strict parser, stop at the first error"?
  328. # [23:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: for the tokeniser, the latter. For the actual parsing of header values, it would need to be two totally different algorithms.
  329. # [23:46] <gsnedders> (actually, for the parsing of header values, I could probably get away with, "There is an error if any header/value pair doesn't match its [RFC 2616] definition, with the following exceptions: …")
  330. # [23:47] <gsnedders> so it probably is doable without _too_ much extra text
  331. # [23:48] * Philip` wonders why Thunderbird is complaining that cpop.corp.google.com's certificate expired two years ago
  332. # [23:49] <gsnedders> Also, seeming IIS gets away with using a strict parser, it would probably with worth saying that, "It is RECOMMENDED that requests are parsed with a strict parser, and that responses are parsed with a weak/lax(?) parser."
  333. # [23:49] * Hixie wonders how Philip`'s computer can even get to a cert on cpop.corp.google.com
  334. # [23:50] * gsnedders wonders whether weak or lax would be better
  335. # [23:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: "liberal"?
  336. # [23:51] <gsnedders> or follow RFC 3986's example of "non-strict" :)
  337. # [23:51] <gsnedders> (which means I only need to name one)
  338. # [23:52] <Philip`> Hixie: I have no idea, but I'm just downloading from pop.googlemail.com like normal, so it must be someone else's fault :-)
  339. # [23:52] <Hixie> weird
  340. # [23:52] * gsnedders applies a SEP field around Gmail
  341. # [23:52] <gsnedders> (and paints it pink, otherwise it wouldn't work)
  342. # [23:54] * Quits: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-db3f9f32d581608b)
  343. # [23:54] <Philip`> http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Problem-solving/browse_thread/thread/137a15fe56fc1c2c?hl=en - ah, sounds like not just me
  344. # [23:55] <gsnedders> anyhow, enough talking to myself (more or less). If anyone has any comments on the HTTP stuff, feel free to drop me an email.
  345. # [23:55] * gsnedders falls alseep
  346. # [23:55] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-145-188-131.range86-145.btcentralplus.com) ("404: Not Found")
  347. # [23:56] <Philip`> The "continue" buttons on these certificate security warning boxes always look very tempting since they make the visible problem go away immediately
  348. # [23:56] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@241.sub-70-212-185.myvzw.com)
  349. # Session Close: Tue Dec 04 00:00:00 2007

The end :)