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- # Session Start: Fri Dec 14 00:00:00 2007
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
- # [00:17] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.230)
- # [00:20] <Hixie> zcorpan: i think your proposal is pretty good
- # [00:20] <Hixie> i think i'm going to take this opportunity to discard the "block" and "inline" terms though
- # [00:20] <Hixie> in favour of something like "paragraph-level" and "phrasing-level" or something
- # [00:22] <Hixie> i don't know that we want video to be strictly speaking inline/phrasing-level... after all it has to contain blocks (i agree it's transparent)... consider this:
- # [00:23] <Hixie> <section> The screen should now look like <object ...> <pre> <samp> ... </samp> </pre> </object> which...
- # [00:23] <Hixie> i suppose it's ok for paragraphing to be loosely defined
- # [00:24] <Hixie> in fact i guess we can throw all of that to the winds and just say that you apply css rules to determine "blocks" for the purposes of rendering, even if you don't support css itself
- # [00:26] <Hixie> *ponder* *ponder*
- # [00:39] <jruderman> Hixie: neat, so "block in inline" will unambiguously refer to the CSS layout issue rather than the HTML parsing issue
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- # [01:06] <Hixie> jruderman: yeah
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- # [09:04] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [09:04] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 03:10:22
- # [10:16] <krijnh> Ping
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- # [10:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [10:17] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 03:10:22
- # [10:17] <krijnh> Shitty connection today :/
- # [10:25] <krijnh> Pong
- # [12:08] <krijnh> Grmbl
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- # [12:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [12:08] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 03:10:22
- # [12:09] <hsivonen> the source line numbering is right
- # [12:10] <krijnh> Hey, I'm back
- # [12:10] <hsivonen> but the parser line numbering goes into the weed but there's nothing particularly strange in the source at that point...
- # [12:18] <madness> Camaban: re: opera, yes, that too
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- # [12:52] <Philip`> "[whatwg] [html5] Unsubcribe me!" -- that's not fair - artificially inflated subscriber numbers are the most useful outcome of the Ogg issue, but it will be lost if people just unsubscribe :-(
- # [12:52] <stijntje> hahaha wtf
- # [12:52] <stijntje> :SD
- # [12:53] <stijntje> "$$ka-ching$$"
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- # [12:55] <Lachy> looks like mo0n_sniper just subscribed to send that pointless message and now wants to unsubscribe
- # [12:57] <othermaciej> that was pretty sad, yeah
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- # [13:07] <hsivonen> yay. I managed to minimize Sam's dogfood case to 5 lines of XML
- # [13:08] <maikmerten> stijntje, yeah, I totally love this professional unsubscripe request, too
- # [13:08] <maikmerten> "hit and run"
- # [13:08] <maikmerten> *unsubscribe
- # [13:08] <hsivonen> unsophisticated advocacy doesn't reflect well on any community :-(
- # [13:09] <maikmerten> yeah, and I always get a slight stomache when seing things like this
- # [13:10] <stijntje> did I miss something? I don't seem to have the mail Shannon is replying to in his latest
- # [13:10] <maikmerten> err... stomachache
- # [13:12] <hsivonen> stijntje: I don't see what (s)he is replying to, either
- # [13:12] <stijntje> might be a private mail from Dave
- # [13:13] <hsivonen> in-reply-to points to the same domain as message-id
- # [13:13] <maikmerten> which reminds me how I often just hit "reply" on a mailing list post and thus accidentially answer off-list
- # [13:13] <stijntje> that happens to me too
- # [13:14] <maikmerten> back in ye olde days "reply" would always get back to the list
- # [13:14] <maikmerten> I'm not sure why all lists seem to have changed this
- # [13:15] <maikmerten> (I now hit "reply all" and then kill all non-list addresses so people won't get the same thing twice)
- # [13:16] <stijntje> is Shanon a male or female name, by the way?
- # [13:17] <hsivonen> stijntje: it is at least female, but I don't know it works as a male name, too
- # [13:17] <stijntje> hsivonen: thank you
- # [13:18] <maikmerten> on the stomachache thing: It's nice if people show support for free formats and all... but why can some guys not stick to minimum social standards? (even if impulse and passion drives them away)
- # [13:18] <stijntje> or read up on the thing about which they're upset :)
- # [13:20] <maikmerten> (having said that I must confess I also did write some messages to the list I wished I wouldn't have sent)
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- # [16:36] <hsivonen> What foreign namespaces are reasonable in XHTML5 other than SVG, MathML and RDF (plus whatever happens in the RDF subtree)?
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- # [16:38] <hsivonen> is there any good-for-the-Web reason to use XLink in XHTML5?
- # [16:41] <hsivonen> the XBL2 spec has an example that embeds XBL2 in SVG. is it reasonable to embed XBL2 in XHTML5?
- # [16:41] <Philip`> There's XLink in SVG subtrees
- # [16:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, embedding SVG covers that case
- # [16:43] <annevk> it's reasonable
- # [16:44] <annevk> XLink should be avoided when possible
- # [16:44] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. what's our XBL2 in text/html story?
- # [16:44] <annevk> CSS
- # [16:44] <annevk> for now anyway
- # [16:44] <hsivonen> ok. XHTML5 > HTML5 then :-)
- # [16:45] <annevk> euh, run
- # [16:45] <hsivonen> does RDF have some kind of notion of correctness that doesn't involve knowledge about a particular vocabulary/ontology/whatever
- # [16:45] <hsivonen> ?
- # [16:46] <hsivonen> I'm wondering if I should make RDF a black hole or plug in Jena
- # [16:46] <hsivonen> (though I'm only going to plug in Jena if it's useful and low-hanging fruit)
- # [16:47] <hsivonen> is it legitimate to use XHTML5/SVG/MathML elements inside an RDF subtree?
- # [16:47] <annevk> given how widely RDF is deployed I would prioritize other things personally
- # [16:47] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah.
- # [16:47] <hsivonen> black hole it is
- # [17:00] <Dashiva> RDF is like prolog, it's all backwards
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- # [17:01] <Dashiva> Talking about correctness is tricky
- # [17:02] <gsnedders> I. am. correct.
- # [17:02] <gsnedders> That wasn't hard.
- # [17:02] * gsnedders looks up logs to see what he just said
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- # [17:46] <gsnedders> god. another 51 emails on whatwg.
- # [17:46] <G0k> i have a solution for you
- # [17:46] <stijntje> mostly ogg drama
- # [17:46] <G0k> if contains 'ogg' -> junk
- # [17:50] <gsnedders> :P
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- # [17:59] <oxygenws> in globalStorage, what happen to IP browsing sites?
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- # [18:07] <G0k> so has anyone even considered implementing the network connections stuff (section 6.3) ?
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- # [18:48] <Hixie> wow, lots of mail
- # [18:49] <inimino> I have replied to some off-list
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- # [18:51] <Hixie> the internet gods aren't wanting me to reply to this mail
- # [18:51] <Hixie> every time i try, my connection dies
- # [18:52] <inimino> it seems there are widely divergent opinions on the coercive value of a SHOULD in the spec
- # [18:52] <Hixie> it seems pretty academic, since all the browser vendors who would be coerced have already implemented Theora, and the others have said they won't do it
- # [18:52] <inimino> and perhaps of the value of <video> without a real agreed-upon baseline
- # [18:53] <Hixie> i think it's pretty clear that <video> without a common codec would be a failure
- # [18:53] <inimino> right
- # [18:53] <inimino> I think a token SHOULD mentioning Ogg could be as great of a failure
- # [18:54] <Hixie> sure, since it wouldn't be a common codec
- # [18:55] <inimino> specifically if some other format is actually interoperable across any sizeable group of UAs
- # [18:56] <Hixie> if some format is interoperable, and it doesn't suck too much, it'll be successful
- # [18:56] <Hixie> regardless of what the spec says
- # [18:56] <inimino> right
- # [18:56] <inimino> and regardless of whether it is interoperable by free software
- # [18:56] <inimino> s/interoperable/implementable/
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- # [19:44] <gsnedders> Flow 5.0: <http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/14/art-installation-made-up-of-hundreds-of-case-fans-is-full-of-air/>
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- # [22:37] <Philip`> Is it bad to write web content using __defineGetter__?
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- # [22:38] <Philip`> (particularly for something around canvas-3d, so I can make some assumptions about what browsers users will have)
- # [22:39] <Dashiva> It's part of es4, so sure
- # [22:39] <gavin_> is it part of es3?
- # [22:40] <gavin_> does it work in safari/opera?
- # [22:40] <Philip`> I guess I only really care about Firefox 3 and Opera 10 and Safari 4, since my code won't work in anything else
- # [22:40] * gavin_ is just curious
- # [22:41] <Philip`> I vaguely remembering hearing that Opera 9.5 added it
- # [22:41] <Philip`> s/ering/er/
- # [22:45] <Philip`> Woah, my code works :-o
- # [22:46] * Philip` can now automatically create a shader object to say e.g. shader.lightPosition = [1,2,3] to set the correspondingly-named GLSL variable, instead of lots of ugly getUniformLocation/uniformf calls
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- # [22:55] <Dashiva> gavin: Not in es3, mozilla started it in their js 1.7 or so. Opera added support in 9.5. Not sure about Safari
- # [22:59] <gavin_> er, __defineGetter__?
- # [22:59] <gavin_> pretty sure that existed long before js1.7
- # [23:00] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
- # [23:00] <gavin_> it was landed in Mozilla CVS on 2000-03-02 15:19 with the comment "Added ECMA3 compliant getter/setter syntax."
- # [23:01] <gavin_> now, that commit message may not mean __defineGetter__ itself
- # [23:01] <gavin_> but that does suggest that it was pre-1.7 :)
- # [23:06] <Dashiva> I expect "ECMA3 compliant" means it doesn't extend the syntax, like { get a : function(){} } and function getter a() {}
- # [23:25] <Philip`> "most users don't install third-party products" ... except for Flash?
- # [23:25] <Hixie> most users don't install flash, it comes pre-installed
- # [23:26] <Philip`> Oh, does Windows do that?
- # [23:26] <Hixie> not sure what the status is these days. it used to, i believe.
- # [23:26] <Hixie> most OEMs do too
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- # [23:29] <Philip`> Hmm, apparently at least XP does
- # [23:29] <Philip`> That sounds boringly non-anti-competitive
- # [23:29] <Hixie> XP is from before SilverLight
- # [23:29] <Hixie> :-)
- # [23:29] <parcelbrat> i didn't think MS was allowed to do that
- # [23:29] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go get lunch
- # [23:29] <parcelbrat> (be non-anti-ompetitive)
- # [23:34] <Philip`> parcelbrat: Indeed - I think we should sue them for it
- # [23:34] <parcelbrat> You and me, sholdn't be a problem ;)
- # [23:35] * Philip` starts writing the press release and preparing interviews
- # [23:35] * parcelbrat hides his money
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- # Session Close: Sat Dec 15 00:00:00 2007
The end :)