/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 18 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [01:05] * Philip` sees that at least one of the iPlayer shows has a sign language interpreter overlayed (seemingly with no way to disable it), which is a bit distracting
  15. # [01:17] <Hixie> many shows in the uk get broadcast twice, once with and once without the sign interpreter
  16. # [01:17] <Hixie> including, e.g., cartoons
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  19. # [01:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: how do i distinguish RDF from MathML and SVG in a generic sense?
  20. # [01:31] <Hixie> as in, "elements that are from non-XHTML namespaces and whose semantics define metadata" might describe RDF
  21. # [01:31] <Hixie> but i can't see how to describe MathML/SVG
  22. # [01:36] <othermaciej> what is the purpose of the distinction?
  23. # [01:42] <Hixie> i want to allow rdf anywhere metadata is allowed
  24. # [01:42] <Hixie> and want to allow svg anywhere prose content is allowed
  25. # [01:43] <Hixie> (without calling them out by name, since i don't want to close teh set of namespaces allowed)
  26. # [01:45] <Hixie> 25 points to anyone who finds a reason why we can't allow <ol>, <div>, <ul>, <p>, etc, in <address>
  27. # [01:47] <othermaciej> "elements ... whose semantics define metadata" and "elements ... whose semantics define content" maybe?
  28. # [01:47] <othermaciej> that's pretty vague
  29. # [01:47] <Hixie> that's what i have but i argued with myself that metadata is a kind of content
  30. # [01:48] <othermaciej> what isn't a kind of content?
  31. # [01:49] <othermaciej> (you could also ask, what isn't a kind of metadata?)
  32. # [01:49] <Hixie> yeah
  33. # [01:49] <Hixie> that's my problem
  34. # [01:50] <webben> Philip`: Do you have a link for that? The impression I got was that you'd get a choice of non-interpreted vs interpreted.
  35. # [01:51] <Hixie> while i'm boiling the oceans over here getting rid of hte block vs inline distinction, maybe i should make <body> optional too... http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2005/05/27/1055-adam-2
  36. # [01:51] <Hixie> (see the paragraph starting "Steven Pemberton")
  37. # [01:52] <Philip`> webben: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b008d36h.shtml is one (linked from the front page, with no link to an alternative version that I can see)
  38. # [01:52] <webben> ta
  39. # [01:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: isn't <body> already optional?
  40. # [01:52] <Philip`> (It's quite probable that the Windows downloadable version has more options than the Flash streaming one)
  41. # [01:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: not in the dom, only in the html serialisation
  42. # [01:53] <othermaciej> ah
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  45. # [02:11] <Hixie> as part of the liberation of html elements, i'm allowing <style scoped> virtually anywhere
  46. # [02:11] <Hixie> let me know if you think <style scoped> should be a little more oppressed
  47. # [02:15] <othermaciej> where was it previously not allowed?
  48. # [02:17] <Hixie> only in section, nav, div, and article
  49. # [02:17] <Hixie> (i'm still requiring that it be at the top of its parent)
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  57. # [03:37] <deltab> om_afk: in SGML terms at least, the body element is mandatory but its tags are optional
  58. # [03:38] <deltab> likewise html, head, and tbody
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  61. # [03:42] <Hixie> hsivonen is going to have a field day when this is done
  62. # [03:42] <Hixie> there are so many subtle changes
  63. # [03:43] <Philip`> Only one field day? That doesn't sound too bad
  64. # [03:43] <Hixie> hsivonen is good
  65. # [03:43] <Hixie> :-P
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  86. # [08:01] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  87. # [08:01] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 03:10:22
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  113. # [10:42] <Hixie> my edits are making the heading association algorithm even harder to understand
  114. # [10:43] <Hixie> so i'll definitely have to rewrite it at some point
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  136. # [12:06] <Hixie> good lord <ins> is going to make my head explode
  137. # [12:07] <Hixie> it just totally screwed up my entire carefully designed content model
  138. # [12:07] <Hemebond> Why?
  139. # [12:07] <Hemebond> You working on HTML5?
  140. # [12:07] <Hixie> yeah
  141. # [12:07] <Philip`> Replace it by an attribute, so you can have <p ins> and <b ins> and <blockquote ins> and whatever, which won't affect the content model
  142. # [12:08] <othermaciej> the XHTML2 solution!
  143. # [12:08] <Hixie> <article> <ins> <em> hello </em> </ins> <ins> world </ins> of pain <ins> <p> how are you </p> </ins> </article>
  144. # [12:08] <Hixie> that has to become 2 paragraphs
  145. # [12:08] <Hixie> but it is legal
  146. # [12:09] <Hixie> and <article> <em> hello <ins> world </ins> </em> </article> is legal too
  147. # [12:09] <Hemebond> ins is block?
  148. # [12:09] <Hixie> it's... something
  149. # [12:09] <Philip`> It's not like people do much processing of <ins> today, so it wouldn't hurt much to change it
  150. # [12:09] <Hemebond> Old INS was only inline, right?
  151. # [12:10] <Hixie> <ins> was neither inline nor block in html4
  152. # [12:10] <Hixie> it was an sgml inclusion
  153. # [12:11] <Hemebond> *boggle*
  154. # [12:11] <Lachy> Hixie, I thought this issue was solved using transparent content models, and that your first example wouldn't be legal
  155. # [12:24] <Hixie> what's wrong with the first example?
  156. # [12:25] <Hixie> the transparent content models don't really help determine where <ins> is allowed in the first place, only what's allowed inside it
  157. # [12:25] <Lachy> Hixie, because <article> <em></em> <p></p> </article> isn't allowed
  158. # [12:26] <Hixie> it is in the new model
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  160. # [12:27] <Lachy> why?
  161. # [12:27] <Hixie> we're removing the requirement that <p> be required around paragraphs
  162. # [12:27] <Hixie> apparently it was causing too much confusion
  163. # [12:27] <Lachy> who was confused by it?
  164. # [12:27] <Hixie> sam ruby, e.g.
  165. # [12:28] <Lachy> oh, he's confused by a lot of things, and I generally disagree with him
  166. # [12:28] <Hixie> heh
  167. # [12:28] <Hixie> he wasn't the only one
  168. # [12:29] <Hixie> basically paragraphs are implied much like sections get implied
  169. # [12:29] <Hixie> at least, that's the model i'm writing up
  170. # [12:29] <Hixie> who knows if we'll keep it
  171. # [12:30] <Lachy> but that makes it possible to do things like this: <div><p>foo</p> bar <p>baz</p></div> and it represents 3 paragraphs.
  172. # [12:31] <Lachy> I really don't like that model
  173. # [12:31] <Hemebond> Ugh
  174. # [12:31] <Hixie> me either, but it's hard to find a good argument for why that's not ok
  175. # [12:31] <Hixie> (and note that html4 strict allows it)
  176. # [12:31] <Lachy> where are the arguments that it is ok?
  177. # [12:31] <Hixie> (so a lot of people will hit that when transitioning to html5)
  178. # [12:32] <Hemebond> Allows what? Dropping of tags?
  179. # [12:32] <Hixie> Lachy: it doesn't cause anyone any harm, and it's unambiguous
  180. # [12:32] <Hixie> Hemebond: allows mixing inline and block content in <div> elements
  181. # [12:33] <Hemebond> Ah, right.
  182. # [12:34] <Hemebond> Hixie: Are you the BDFL for WHATWG?
  183. # [12:35] <Hixie> pretty much
  184. # [12:35] <Hemebond> The intawebs just told me so.
  185. # [12:35] <Hixie> (except maybe for the "FL" part)
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  187. # [12:35] <Hixie> Lachy: see, kinda hard to come up with a good counter argument
  188. # [12:36] <Lachy> Hixie, not hard, just busy with other stuff right now.
  189. # [12:37] <Hixie> well, if you can find an argument, do let me know, because i couldn't, and that backed me into the corner of allowing it.
  190. # [12:38] <Hixie> and i don't like it
  191. # [12:41] <Lachy> can you point me to Sam's arguments?
  192. # [12:45] <Hixie> he didn't really argue for anything as i recall
  193. # [12:45] <Hixie> but see the dogfood thread in public-html, e.g.
  194. # [12:46] <Hixie> wow i'm really confused about how to do <ins> and <del> with the implied paragraph stuff
  195. # [12:46] <Hixie> i'd better sleep and work on this tomorro
  196. # [12:46] <Hixie> nn
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  198. # [12:50] <Camaban> what the... so hang on, if <p> isn't required, does that mean whitespace in HTML is going to become something to think about? (aside from a couple of browser bugs)
  199. # [12:52] <Lachy> Camaban, no
  200. # [12:52] <Camaban> presume I'm missing something, I'll go look it up
  201. # [12:53] <Hemebond> What makes it an implied <P>?
  202. # [12:53] <Lachy> Camaban, white space can't become significant because it would seriously break compatibility
  203. # [12:53] <OmegaJunior> It already does... browser bug in MSIE
  204. # [12:54] <Hemebond> And isn't whitespace kept in Mozilla too?
  205. # [12:54] <Camaban> Lachy: that's what I'm thinking, but if <div><p>foo</p> bar <p>baz</p></div> represents 3 paragraphs, then it looks like whitespace would be significant
  206. # [12:54] <Hemebond> Between parent and child elements?
  207. # [12:54] <OmegaJunior> It shouldn't...
  208. # [12:55] <Lachy> Hemebond, <p> will never be implied directly. But rather, the concept of an implied paragraph is a little more abstract
  209. # [12:55] <Hemebond> I believe (maybe they fixed it) if you iterated through the children of an <OL>, you'd pick up the whitespace/line-returns too.
  210. # [12:55] <Lachy> Camaban, even if you took out the whitepace in that example, it would still represent 3 paragraphs in the new model
  211. # [12:55] <OmegaJunior> Yes, Hemebond, that is normal
  212. # [12:55] <Hemebond> Lachy: So it isn't marked up with anything except the DIV?
  213. # [12:55] <OmegaJunior> But it shouldn't be displayed by the browser
  214. # [12:56] <Hemebond> OmegaJunior: But.... why is there whitespace between elements where there shouldn't be any other child elements?
  215. # [12:56] <Hemebond> <OL> can only have <LI> as a child element, no?
  216. # [12:56] <Camaban> ok, so how would soemthing like http://pastebin.com/d367d5a2c be interpreted? as 1 paragraph, or 2?
  217. # [12:56] <OmegaJunior> Hemebond: because the source contains new-line or carriage-return?
  218. # [12:56] <OmegaJunior> That counts as whitespace, too.
  219. # [12:57] <Hemebond> OmegaJunior: I'm talking about the DOM though.
  220. # [12:57] <OmegaJunior> Yes
  221. # [12:57] <Lachy> the whitespace will still be present in the DOM, but as far as semantics are concerned, it's very much irrelevant
  222. # [12:57] <Lachy> I gotta go
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  224. # [12:57] <OmegaJunior> The DOM sees spaces, carriage returns, new-lines, tabs, etc. as white-space text nodes
  225. # [12:57] <OmegaJunior> unless they're already inside a text
  226. # [12:58] <Hemebond> OmegaJunior: I know.
  227. # [12:58] <Philip`> "Inter-element whitespace, comment nodes, and processing instruction nodes must be ignored when establishing whether an element matches its content model or not, and must be ignored when following algorithms that define document and element semantics."
  228. # [12:58] <Philip`> (says HTML5)
  229. # [12:58] <OmegaJunior> Excellent
  230. # [12:58] <OmegaJunior> Let's hope the browser vendors will implement it
  231. # [12:59] <othermaciej> that's not a requirement for browsers
  232. # [12:59] <OmegaJunior> How so?
  233. # [12:59] <Philip`> so they're in the DOM, and included in DOM childNodes and stuff, but are not relevant for conformance or for HTML5-defined algorithms (e.g. to find the list items in a list)
  234. # [12:59] <othermaciej> that rule applies to documents and validators
  235. # [13:00] <Philip`> othermaciej: The "must be ignored when following algorithms ..." sounds like browser conformance
  236. # [13:00] <othermaciej> "when following algorithms that define document and element semantics"
  237. # [13:00] <OmegaJunior> othermaciej: it applies to documents and validators but not to browsers? That seems contradictory.
  238. # [13:00] <Philip`> at least to the extent that browsers run those algorithms
  239. # [13:00] <othermaciej> in particular it wouldn't apply to the parsing algorithm, as written
  240. # [13:00] <Philip`> (which should be a non-zero extent, I guess)
  241. # [13:00] <othermaciej> since that does not define document or element semantics
  242. # [13:01] <OmegaJunior> No... but it interprets it...
  243. # [13:01] <Hemebond> The DOM isn't the document?
  244. # [13:01] <OmegaJunior> No, just a model of it
  245. # [13:01] <Hemebond> Which the browser uses to build the document.
  246. # [13:02] <othermaciej> I don't know what algorithms are considered to define document and element semantics and which browsers must follow
  247. # [13:02] <othermaciej> off hand
  248. # [13:02] <othermaciej> but I don't think the quote from Philip` is primarily aimed at browser algorithms that would be relevant here, thus, "let's hope browser vendors will implement it" is not really a proper response
  249. # [13:03] <OmegaJunior> I disagree
  250. # [13:03] * Philip` agrees with othermaciej :-)
  251. # [13:03] <othermaciej> it's true that <div><p>foo</p> <p>bar</p></div> should generate a text node in the DOM for the space, but not render it
  252. # [13:04] <OmegaJunior> What good does it do, to describe how whitespace should be handled, if that description doesn't apply to how a browser should handle whitespace while parsing and displaying a document?
  253. # [13:04] <othermaciej> but the reasons are the HTML5 parsing algorithm and CSS whitespace collapsing rules
  254. # [13:04] <othermaciej> there are descriptions of how whitespace should be handled while parsing and displaying a document
  255. # [13:04] <othermaciej> for parsing, that is the parsing algorithm
  256. # [13:05] <othermaciej> for display, it is CSS (mainly whitespace collapsing, possibly some other stuff)
  257. # [13:05] <Hemebond> the parsing alg is different to the alg for generating a DOM?
  258. # [13:05] <Philip`> The parsing algorithm is what generates the DOM
  259. # [13:05] <OmegaJunior> othermaciej, And as everyone will understand, the parsing algorythem is developed without any contact with the rest of the HTML5 spec.
  260. # [13:05] <OmegaJunior> Difficult word, algorythm
  261. # [13:05] <othermaciej> the HTML5 parsing algorithm describes how to take a text/html document and generate a DOM (with various possible side effects along the way)
  262. # [13:06] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  263. # [13:06] <Hemebond> This is confusing. And messy.
  264. # [13:06] <OmegaJunior> So how whitespace should be handled in a document has no bearing on how a parser should handle whitespace in a document?
  265. # [13:06] <OmegaJunior> Hemebond: I agree
  266. # [13:07] <Hemebond> I think I'll go learn XHTML2.
  267. # [13:07] <Philip`> If you have <div><p>foo</p> <p>bar</p></div> in XHTML, you get a text node between the two 'p' nodes, exactly the same as in HTML
  268. # [13:08] <Philip`> (in terms of the DOM, which the document gets parsed into)
  269. # [13:08] <OmegaJunior> Yes, I'd expect as much.
  270. # [13:08] <Philip`> (and if you write scripts to manipulate the DOM, you'll hit those text nodes)
  271. # [13:08] <othermaciej> the web is messy
  272. # [13:08] <Hemebond> Very.
  273. # [13:08] <Philip`> so XHTML2 won't make this any less confusing :-)
  274. # [13:08] <Hemebond> So why is HTML5 trying to validate that mess instead of cleaning it up?
  275. # [13:08] <OmegaJunior> The HTML5-project should try to avoid adding to the mess.
  276. # [13:09] <Philip`> What should HTML5 do instead?
  277. # [13:09] <Philip`> (in this particular case)
  278. # [13:09] <Hemebond> Well, is inline content allowed in a DIV?
  279. # [13:10] <Philip`> Today HTML5 says "Content model: Zero or more style elements, followed by either zero or more block-level elements, or inline-level content (but not both)."
  280. # [13:10] <Philip`> (but that is being rewritten by Hixie)
  281. # [13:10] <Philip`> so it depends on what "is" is :-)
  282. # [13:11] <OmegaJunior> Yes, inline-content is allowed in a DIV, but not together with block-content.
  283. # [13:11] <OmegaJunior> (current spec)
  284. # [13:11] <Hemebond> Then document is invalid and should fail.
  285. # [13:12] <Philip`> But the current spec says inter-element whitespace is not significant for whether a document is valid; otherwise it'd be horrible because you couldn't e.g. write a list with one <li>item...</li> per line
  286. # [13:13] <Hemebond> I was thinking of the original example that had text between the nodes.
  287. # [13:13] <Hemebond> Whitespace between elements should be ignored.
  288. # [13:14] <OmegaJunior> Agreed
  289. # [13:14] <OmegaJunior> That whitespace exists for the benefit of the source programmers and readers.
  290. # [13:14] <Philip`> Okay - that one is currently invalid, but apparently there has been no convincing reason why it should be invalid, and it causes problems for people migrating from HTML and provides no benefits
  291. # [13:15] <Hemebond> Boohoo. Their code is shit.
  292. # [13:15] <Philip`> Their code is valid HTML4
  293. # [13:15] <Hemebond> Yeah.
  294. # [13:15] <Hemebond> So they can stay with HTML4.
  295. # [13:15] <Hemebond> Or clean it up.
  296. # [13:15] <Hemebond> HTML4 allows inline and block in the same div?
  297. # [13:15] <OmegaJunior> Yeah
  298. # [13:16] <Hemebond> Awesome.
  299. # [13:16] <Hemebond> Why not allow it here in HTML5 then?
  300. # [13:16] <OmegaJunior> Hemebond: because the rendering is undefined
  301. # [13:16] <OmegaJunior> Which leads to differences between browser
  302. # [13:16] <Hemebond> I see.
  303. # [13:17] <Hemebond> Hmmm
  304. # [13:17] <Hemebond> Render it inline, at the top of the DIV.
  305. # [13:17] <Hemebond> With block elements rendering below it.
  306. # [13:17] <Hemebond> Haha
  307. # [13:17] <Philip`> http://validator.w3.org/check?fragment=%3C!DOCTYPE%20HTML%20PUBLIC%20%22-//W3C//DTD%20HTML%204.0//EN%22%3E%20%3Ctitle%3E%3C/title%3E%20%3Cdiv%3E%3Cp%3Efoo%3C/p%3E%20bar%20%3Cp%3Ebaz%3C/p%3E%3C/div%3E
  308. # [13:17] <Hemebond> That'd mess with people.
  309. # [13:17] <Philip`> This Page Is Valid HTML 4.0 Strict!
  310. # [13:17] <Hemebond> w3.org validator means nothing.
  311. # [13:18] <Hemebond> I mentally slap anyone who claims spec conformance by using that validator.
  312. # [13:18] <OmegaJunior> o.O.
  313. # [13:18] <Hemebond> In this case of course...
  314. # [13:18] <Hemebond> it does match.
  315. # [13:18] <Camaban> and the one you use is.....
  316. # [13:19] <Hemebond> Got a link somewhere....
  317. # [13:19] <Philip`> http://htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fmisc%2Fdivblockinline.html&warnings=yes
  318. # [13:19] <OmegaJunior> To my knowledge the w3 validator is authoritive?
  319. # [13:19] <Hemebond> It's no longer developed as far as I know.
  320. # [13:19] <Hemebond> And not complete.
  321. # [13:20] <Hemebond> According to ex-w3 members.
  322. # [13:20] <Hemebond> Philip`: Yes, I think that's the one.
  323. # [13:20] <Philip`> "Congratulations, no errors!"
  324. # [13:20] <Hemebond> Yeah... I know.
  325. # [13:20] <Hemebond> Because it is valid HTML4.
  326. # [13:20] <Hemebond> My comment was just slightly OT.
  327. # [13:21] <Hemebond> Just an aside.
  328. # [13:22] <Philip`> Hmm, Validome doesn't work at all - it says the doctype is missing
  329. # [13:23] <Philip`> Oh, right, it's just broken in Opera
  330. # [13:24] <Philip`> Hemebond: The W3C validator is still actively developed
  331. # [13:24] <Camaban> http://validator.w3.org/whatsnew.html#t2007-10-11 no longer developed?
  332. # [13:24] <Hemebond> *shrug*
  333. # [13:24] <Hemebond> Just repeating what I read.
  334. # [13:24] <Camaban> and that actually the validator at w3.org and htmlhelp are identical
  335. # [13:26] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  336. # [13:26] <Hemebond> 1:30am
  337. # [13:26] <Hemebond> Night all.
  338. # [13:28] <Philip`> Good night
  339. # [13:28] <OmegaJunior> Night!
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  343. # [14:30] * hdh thought of tagging white-space node with irrelevant
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  346. # [14:48] <Philip`> hdh: Adding the 'irrelevant' attribute to white-space text nodes in the DOM? I thought only Element nodes could have attributes
  347. # [14:50] <hdh> hm, okay
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  410. # [21:12] * nikola_tesla changes topic to ''
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  412. # [21:24] * gsnedders wonders what the point of \paragraph and \subparagraph is in LaTeX
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  414. # [21:29] <hsivonen> isn't \paragraph a bit like \theorem or somesuch--not a generic paragraph?
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  417. # [21:35] <zcorpan> is it possible to throw proper DOMExceptions with javascript? e.g. INVALID_STATE_ERR ?
  418. # [21:36] <zcorpan> throw new Error('INVALID_STATE_ERR') isn't it
  419. # [21:36] <gsnedders> hsivonen: \theorem? :P
  420. # [21:40] * Quits: nikola_tesla (n=nikola_t@gw.subscribermail.com) ("~ Computertron ~")
  421. # [21:40] <Philip`> He stole our topic :-(
  422. # [21:41] * gsnedders blames him
  423. # [21:41] * Philip` wonders if anyone has a backup copy
  424. # [21:42] <hdh> WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
  425. # [21:42] * gsnedders changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  426. # [21:42] <Philip`> Ah, thanks :-)
  427. # [21:42] <hdh> :) pidgin powered
  428. # [21:49] <hsivonen> gsnedders: isn't there a \theorem in LaTeX?
  429. # [21:49] <gsnedders> hsivonen: no idea. I've only started properly learning LaTeX tonight :P
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  434. # [22:28] <jgraham_> Er, well LaTeX can have \anything-you-like with the right style file :)
  435. # [22:29] <jgraham_> But I think \theorem is pretty standard
  436. # [22:31] <jgraham_> see http://www.math.uiuc.edu/~hildebr/tex/theorems.html - it seems to be included in amslatex
  437. # [22:33] <jgraham_> actually I think I'm wrong about that \begin{theorem} seems to be in ordinary LaTeX
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  442. # [23:23] * gsnedders wonders whether the following will confuse his computing teacher:
  443. # [23:23] <gsnedders> "Reliability is the consistency that the program creates the correct output
  444. # [23:23] <gsnedders> for any given input (to the extent that output can be found given
  445. # [23:23] <gsnedders> the halting problem)."
  446. # [23:25] <Philip`> I don't see why the halting problem is at all relevant
  447. # [23:25] <gsnedders> actually, it shouldn't create any output, should it, therefore meaning it is irrelevant
  448. # [23:25] * gsnedders headdesks
  449. # [23:25] <Philip`> Uh, I'm not sure what you mean
  450. # [23:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: don't worry, just how I ended up with the halting problem being relevant in my head (which is stupid)
  451. # [23:27] <Philip`> It might be relevant that something which doesn't give an incorrect answer because it doesn't give any answer (i.e. it doesn't terminate) is incorrect, but that's not the halting problem
  452. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: mainly down to whether it should be creating any output for a certain input that makes the algorithm fall into the halting problem
  453. # [23:28] * gsnedders has already forgotten half his reasoning for it anyway
  454. # [23:28] <gsnedders> and trying to re-create it is failing
  455. # [23:29] <Philip`> It's only a problem if you want to prove whether the program does or does not produce output, and I'm not sure why you'd want to prove that :-)
  456. # [23:29] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.9.100.getinternet.no)
  457. # [23:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: I did, indirectly, without explaining myself anywhere near enough :)
  458. # [23:30] <gsnedders> And it's so vaguely relevant and the halting problem isn't even taught so you couldn't really rely on my teacher having a clue what it is :\
  459. # [23:30] <Philip`> The halting problem is largely irrelevant in reality anyway, because a tool which decides "this program does terminate" or "I'm not sure this program terminates" is possible and useful (and e.g. implemented by Microsoft)
  460. # [23:32] <Philip`> Also, computers are finite
  461. # [23:32] * jgraham_ can suddenly access whatwg.org again :)
  462. # [23:32] <Philip`> So I don't understand why people use the halting problem as an excuse so often :-)
  463. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: "… we're only immortal for a limited time."
  464. # [23:37] <Philip`> (I also don't understand http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-02.txt talking about Turing completeness, because XML DTDs are not Turing complete and you can do things like the billion laughs attack in non-Turing-complete languages easily since a billion is finite)
  465. # [23:40] * gsnedders doesn't really under turning completeness
  466. # [23:40] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.9.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  467. # [23:41] <jgraham_> Philip`: Do you have any data on how many pages use <form method=foo> with foo not in the set (get, post, put, delete)?
  468. # [23:42] <Philip`> If a language is Turing complete, it kind of means you can emulate a Turing machine in the language and you can emulate that language on a Turing machine, and hence the language is equivalent in expressiveness to every other Turing complete language, except the details are a bit more complex and that's probably inaccurate :-)
  469. # [23:43] <jgraham_> (Turing machines are kinda hard to come by. Specifically the infinite rolls of tape aren't stocked by Tesco)
  470. # [23:44] <Philip`> (That's not a problem - you can predict how fast the tape will be used up, and just buy new rolls and sellotape them onto the end of the previous one when it's about to be used up)
  471. # [23:44] <gsnedders> (What's a turning machine?)
  472. # [23:44] <hsivonen> jgraham_: the tape only needs to be long enough for whatever you are computing if the program terminates :-)
  473. # [23:44] <hsivonen> of course, figuring out if it terminates so you can go buy tape is hard
  474. # [23:45] <Philip`> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BloopFloopAndGloop - you can do vaguely useful things without being Turing complete
  475. # [23:45] <Philip`> gsnedders: (Do you mean "Turing" rather than "turning"?)
  476. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: (yes)
  477. # [23:45] <gsnedders> (I always do that)
  478. # [23:45] <Philip`> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine is the obvious place to look :-) )
  479. # [23:45] <Philip`> (but, er, it looks quite a long page)
  480. # [23:47] <gsnedders> yeah
  481. # [23:47] <gsnedders> it is, and confusing.
  482. # [23:47] * gsnedders wonders what \relax is in LaTeX
  483. # [23:48] <Philip`> http://www.abelard.org/turpap2/tp2-ie.asp is more confusing
  484. # [23:48] <jgraham_> gsnedders: if you ever have quite a lot of time to spare you might enjoy something like The Emperor's New Mind by Roger Penrose. It touches on Turing machines, Godel's theorem and lots of other interesting things in a mostly-comprehensible way
  485. # [23:49] * gsnedders wishes he had more spare time
  486. # [23:49] * jgraham_ wishes he made better use of his time
  487. # [23:49] * gsnedders finishes computing homework for today
  488. # [23:50] <gsnedders> I better do the homework for the Friday before last tomorrow, then.
  489. # [23:51] <hdh> last tomorrow? end of the world ?-)
  490. # [23:51] <Philip`> jgraham_: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pjt47/misc/method.txt is total number of occurrences
  491. # [23:51] <Philip`> (out of ~15K pages)
  492. # [23:52] <Philip`> (with XML escaping that shouldn't be there)
  493. # [23:52] * Philip` fixes the escaping
  494. # [23:53] <jgraham_> Philip`: Thanks
  495. # [23:53] <Philip`> http://www.showroomnavi.com/ - <form name="area01" method=post" action="cgi-bin/awsearch.cgi" accept-charset="x-euc-jp"> - that is all the post" ones
  496. # [23:54] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  497. # [23:56] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  498. # [23:57] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) ("404: Not Found")
  499. # [23:58] <hdh> 410 fits better, no?
  500. # [23:59] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  501. # [23:59] * zcorpan made a new http://simon.html5.org/tools/js/innerhtml-viewer/
  502. # Session Close: Wed Dec 19 00:00:01 2007

The end :)