/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 01 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:39] <gsnedders> http://geekninja.blogspot.com/2007/12/html5s-canvas-tag-are-we-using-it.html
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  7. # [00:50] <kig> as webcore is lgpl and canvas is a part of webcore and lgpl has a patent release clause...
  8. # [00:57] <Hixie> Philip`: .width doesn't just reflect the content attribute?
  9. # [00:59] <Philip`> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cimg%20src%3Dimage%20style%3Dwidth%3A100%25%20onload%3Dw(this.width)%3E
  10. # [00:59] <Philip`> At least Opera and Firefox return the rendered width, and I think I remember IE doing that too
  11. # [00:59] <Hixie> well crap
  12. # [00:59] <Hixie> does html5 require that?
  13. # [00:59] <Philip`> I think it does
  14. # [01:00] <Philip`> HTML5 says "The DOM attributes height and width must return the rendered height and width of the image, in CSS pixels, if the image is being rendered, and is being rendered to a visual medium, or 0 otherwise. [CSS21]"
  15. # [01:01] <Philip`> (As far as I could see when I last wanted to do this, it's impossible to find the actual bitmap size of the image, which is a bit irritating)
  16. # [01:02] <Philip`> ((except for maybe adding it to the document and having it rendered and then seeing how big it is, but that's nasty))
  17. # [01:11] <Hixie> well cool, glad the spec is right
  18. # [01:12] <Hixie> and yes 'width' would be a way to do it then
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  21. # [01:56] <gsnedders> kig: only LGPL v.3. LGPL v.2 doesn't.
  22. # [01:58] <kig> 2 has a "if you can't redistro this code due to you wanting to destroy competitors with patent wars, you can't redistro this code"
  23. # [01:58] <kig> i.e. if you do distro the code, you don't want to patentwar
  24. # [01:59] <kig> but i don't know
  25. # [01:59] <kig> the canvas source files have a different license header too, wtf's up with that
  26. # [02:00] <kig> usual marketing bs? "webcore is LGPL super open source yay <smallprint>except for the parts that we edited</smallprint>"
  27. # [02:01] <gsnedders> kig: no, it doesn't say that. it says if you have restrictions that contradict the license, you can't redisribute it.
  28. # [02:01] <G0k> kig: i think basically the stuff they took from KTML is lgpl, but the new stuff is mostly BSD
  29. # [02:01] <gsnedders> kig: that doesn't affect Apple.
  30. # [02:01] <gsnedders> kig: their own stuff is BSD licensed, which is more lax than LGPL
  31. # [02:02] <G0k> *KHTML
  32. # [02:02] <gsnedders> kig: yeah, the canvas stuff is two clause BSD license.
  33. # [02:03] * kig pops a new beer
  34. # [02:03] <gsnedders> kig: the marketing bs is, "WebCore is LGPL super open source yay <smallprint>some stuff is even more free!</smallprint>"
  35. # [02:03] <gsnedders> kig: but there's nothing directly about patents in the LGPL
  36. # [02:04] <gsnedders> (nor the BSD license — the license header in the canvas files is the entire license)
  37. # [02:06] <kig> lgpl2 has "Therefore, we insist that any patent license obtained for a version of the library must be consistent with the full freedom of use specified in this license."
  38. # [02:06] <kig> in the preamble
  39. # [02:07] <G0k> yeah i disagree about that part gsnedders
  40. # [02:07] <G0k> iirc the LGPL basically says you implicitly license your patent rights to users of the code
  41. # [02:09] <Lachy> Happy New Year everyone
  42. # [02:10] <G0k> happy 2008 to gmt-1 and earlier people
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  79. # [13:07] <gsnedders> kig: the preamble isn't the license. it has no legal meaning.
  80. # [13:07] <gsnedders> Lords Of HTML, forgive me, for I said "alt tag".
  81. # [13:09] <kig> so use the opengl canvas instead..
  82. # [13:11] <Philip`> Why would that be less likely to be affected by patents?
  83. # [13:12] <kig> because it's opengl
  84. # [13:14] <kig> unless the patent is the usual heh heh patent of the form "hypertext document space in which there may be pixels and which may be programmatically changed"
  85. # [13:14] <kig> which it probably is
  86. # [13:14] <Philip`> But it's OpenGL inside a web browser, which maybe is an innovative new idea and patentable
  87. # [13:15] <kig> MPL doesn't have a patent release?
  88. # [13:15] <Philip`> (I can't see why 2D canvas does anything that isn't trivially obvious, since it's just a wrapper around boring standard 2D graphics libraries)
  89. # [13:17] <kig> because some legal eagle at apple said so
  90. # [13:18] <kig> waiting for adobe to sue all browser makers for having vector graphics that is not flash/pdf
  91. # [13:19] <kig> and my catmull-rom spline drawer needs more work
  92. # [13:20] <Lachy> open source software is generally incompatible with patents, so I doubt Mozilla has any patents for their opengl canvas implementation
  93. # [13:20] <gsnedders> kig: if you read the whole post, they have no issue if it moved to a standards body with a patent policy (i.e., the W3C). Once FPWD is published there, after 90 days, Apple's requirements are met
  94. # [13:20] <Philip`> kig: I'd guess the W3C patent whatsits make it hard for Adobe to complain about patents on things like SVG
  95. # [13:20] <Philip`> Lachy: People other than Mozilla still could, though
  96. # [13:21] <Philip`> Lachy: Also, some Mozilla software does have patents
  97. # [13:21] <Philip`> http://developer-cluster.mozilla.org/en/docs/SpiderMonkey_Internals:_Thread_Safety#Patent
  98. # [13:22] <Lachy> yeah, royalty free patents are ok
  99. # [13:25] <Philip`> kig: Is there any chance your SVG renderer could output things (triangles?) for OpenGL to draw? I'd quite like to have SVG embedded in X3D embedded in XHTML...
  100. # [13:26] <kig> if you have a tesselator/renderer/magic for quadratic/cubic bezier splines, sure
  101. # [13:26] <kig> cubic'll suffice, quadratics can be done with those
  102. # [13:27] <Philip`> That sounds not impossible
  103. # [13:27] <kig> http://www.mdk.org.pl/2007/10/27/curvy-blues
  104. # [13:27] <kig> gradients and stroking may be, ah, more interesting
  105. # [13:28] <Philip`> I'd guess gradients wouldn't be too hard with pixel shaders
  106. # [13:30] <kig> guess i should move all the rendering primitives under the same backend, then implementing the ops in that would get you going
  107. # [13:31] <kig> or write a canvas context that calls opengl
  108. # [13:34] <kig> best performance by caching the paths generated by svg, compile into vertex array
  109. # [13:34] <kig> s/generated by/in/
  110. # [13:36] <kig> now i'm compiling the SVG d="..." -paths into [['moveTo', [0,4]], ['lineTo', [400,230]], ...] and for (var i=0;i<segs.length;i++) ctx[segs[i][0]].apply(ctx, segs[i][1])
  111. # [13:38] <kig> but with ogl you could store the geometry in a VBO, which should make it fly
  112. # [13:39] <kig> http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvas.html#CatmullRom hooray!
  113. # [13:42] <Philip`> kig: Would it be better/worse to compile into eval('function(ctx){ctx.moveTo(0,4), ...}')
  114. # [13:43] <kig> haven't tried, that's really evil though :)
  115. # [13:43] <Philip`> Could you do constant-velocity movement along the spline?
  116. # [13:45] <kig> when i find the algo to compute a segment's length
  117. # [13:45] * Philip` likes evil
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  120. # [13:57] <kig> i had a fleeting thought of parsing truetype fonts with javascript and compiling them into quadraticCurveTo:s but then i took a look at the specs
  121. # [13:58] <Philip`> Could something like FreeType provide you with a list of curves?
  122. # [13:58] <kig> it could
  123. # [13:58] <Philip`> (then precompute the JS-compatible font representation on a server)
  124. # [14:02] <Philip`> Do you happen to know if Opera's drawImage(svgimage, ...) can draw SVG text onto a canvas?
  125. # [14:02] <Philip`> (I can't remember if I ever tested that or not)
  126. # [14:02] <kig> haven't tried, i guess it should
  127. # [14:03] <Philip`> I think it refused to draw foreignContent onto canvas, so HTML text won't work :-(
  128. # [14:05] <kig> if you look at the svgparser transformed text (e.g. coord systems.. -> skew) things with a webkit nightlie, it has madness (the text element has -webkit-transform matrix)
  129. # [14:13] <kig> time to read freetype docs
  130. # [14:14] <kig> oh oh idea
  131. # [14:14] <kig> compute the JS-compatible font representation on a server on the fly
  132. # [14:16] <kig> ok, it's not much of a change, is it :|
  133. # [14:17] <kig> or have a list of fonts, query with js / server-side include
  134. # [14:19] <kig> font server ..
  135. # [14:22] <Philip`> You'd probably want the font server to only send the characters are needed, and not the other tens of thousands of glyphs in the original font file
  136. # [14:23] <Philip`> (so it couldn't just be a static file server)
  137. # [14:24] <Philip`> ((I'm assuming the JS representation of the font would be pretty inefficient, so you couldn't send everything, but maybe I'm wrong))
  138. # [14:26] <kig> gzipped array of numbers, shouldn't be much larger than the original font file (? only one way to find out...)
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  140. # [14:27] <Philip`> Is the original font file just a list of curves, rather than something more programmatic?
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  142. # [14:27] <Philip`> (ignoring all the hinting and stuff, which presumably could never work in SVG-in-canvas)
  143. # [14:28] <kig> truetype fonts have the curves and then some nutty bytecode system for doing the hinting afaik
  144. # [14:28] <kig> i don't really know
  145. # [14:29] <kig> i guess they have something extra to handle all the different types of type
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  147. # [14:35] <Philip`> (Is there a better touchpad driver for Windows in Boot Camp? I don't like taking twenty seconds to right-click on a folder just because right-clicking requires two fingers on the touchpad which then makes the window scroll wildly up and down even if I keep my fingers almost stationary)
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  154. # [16:46] <kig> just what i needed: http://www.geometrictools.com/Documentation/MovingAlongCurveSpecifiedSpeed.pdf
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  158. # [17:18] <anne-mac> Philip`, where in ECMAScript does it state that \0 is to be stripped?
  159. # [17:18] <anne-mac> Philip`, presumably the Acid3 test bases that on some statement?
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  162. # [17:39] <Philip`> anne-mac: As far as I'm aware, it shouldn't be stripped - it's just a normal character, so "foo\0bar" != "foo"
  163. # [17:40] <Philip`> (except Opera (and no other browser) tends to strip off everything after the first \0 presumably because it's treated like a C string)
  164. # [17:40] <Philip`> (and so I'm assuming Opera is wrong, because it's the odd one out and it doesn't seem sensible behaviour)
  165. # [17:41] <anne-mac> other browsers strip \0 characters
  166. # [17:42] <anne-mac> I guess one can claim that treating \0 as terminating character is wrong, but stripping it out isn't in the specs either
  167. # [17:43] <Philip`> I don't see it being stripped out in any browser
  168. # [17:43] <Philip`> (except Opera)
  169. # [17:45] <Philip`> (...and IE - oops)
  170. # [17:46] <anne-mac> Firefox and Safari at least strip it when doing alert('x\0x')
  171. # [17:46] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3Dw(document.getElementById('fo%5C0o'))%3E%0A%3Cspan%20id%3Dfo%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20id%3Dfoo%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A
  172. # [17:48] <Philip`> Oh, that sounds more likely to be a problem with alert than with the general DOM API system
  173. # [17:48] <anne-mac> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=310037
  174. # [17:49] <Philip`> alert('x\0x') in Safari on Windows outputs just "x", and FF3 on Windows says "xx"
  175. # [17:49] <anne-mac> Safari on Mac says "xx" ...
  176. # [17:50] <Philip`> "Version 3.0.4 (523.15)"
  177. # [17:51] * Philip` doesn't know if newer versions changed it
  178. # [17:51] <anne-mac> Version 3.0.4 (5523.10)
  179. # [17:51] <Philip`> That sounds futuristic
  180. # [17:51] <anne-mac> it's a literal copy
  181. # [17:52] * Philip` wonders what the extra 5 means
  182. # [18:02] <Philip`> WebKit nightly on Windows seems to still say "x"
  183. # [18:03] <anne-mac> maybe stripping \0 is done at the OS level on Mac and Windows doesn't do that
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  188. # [18:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: extra 5 is on leopard, but not in UA string
  189. # [18:47] <gsnedders> anne-mac: seems to be within OS string type for alerts
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  198. # [19:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: "If you the automatic choice of parser ..." fixed. thanks
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  204. # [20:18] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3E[align%3D%22A%22]%2C%20[align%3D%22B%22]%2C%20[align%3D%22i%22]%2C%20[align%3D%22%C4%B1%22]%20{%20background%3Ayellow%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cp%20align%3Da%3Ea%20A%3Cp%20align%3Da%3EB%20b%3Cp%20align%3D%C4%B0%3E%C4%B0%20i%3Cp%20align%3DI%3EI%20%C4%B1
  205. # [20:19] <G0k> oo
  206. # [20:20] <zcorpan> um, make that http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3E[align%3D%22A%22]%2C%20[align%3D%22b%22]%2C%20[align%3D%22i%22]%2C%20[align%3D%22%C4%B1%22]%20{%20background%3Ayellow%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cp%20align%3Da%3Ea%20A%3Cp%20align%3DB%3EB%20b%3Cp%20align%3D%C4%B0%3E%C4%B0%20i%3Cp%20align%3DI%3EI%20%C4%B1
  207. # [20:23] * Quits: G0k (n=hmason@c-67-164-171-32.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  208. # [20:23] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3E[align%3D%22A%22]%23a%2C%20[align%3D%22b%22]%23b%2C%20[align%3D%22i%22]%23c%2C%20[align%3D%22%C4%B1%22]%23d%20{%20background%3Ayellow%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cp%20id%3Da%20align%3Da%3Ea%20A%3Cp%20id%3Db%20align%3DB%3EB%20b%3Cp%20id%3Dc%20align%3D%C4%B0%3E%C4%B0%20i%3Cp%20id%3Dd%20align%3DI%3EI%20%C4%B1 even...
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  213. # [21:50] <Philip`> If I have some XML (specifically XSLT) which uses QNames in attribute values, and I want to extract a subtree and move it into a new document and want the QNames to continue working, is there a proper way to do that?
  214. # [21:54] <hsivonen> Should I remove text/xsl support from Validator.nu even in the lax mode?
  215. # [21:57] <hsivonen> I see application/xslt+xml in mime.types on Leopard. Is that an Apple addition or does Apache now qualify unregistered types in the default list?
  216. # [21:58] <gsnedders> hsivonen: it'll be Apple
  217. # [21:58] <hsivonen> ok
  218. # [21:58] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  219. # [21:59] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Apache policy hasn't changed (and Apple will've taken the Apache version in Leopard before WWDC in June)
  220. # [22:06] * Joins: Thezilch[FH] (n=fuz007@ip68-111-154-116.sd.sd.cox.net)
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  222. # [22:13] <takkaria> http://ewx.livejournal.com/459902.html
  223. # [22:14] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  224. # [22:14] <MacDome> takkaria: would you like to file a bug? http://webkit.org/quality/reporting.html
  225. # [22:14] <MacDome> it will end up being a CFNetwork bug
  226. # [22:14] <MacDome> which dates back from NeXT in part :)
  227. # [22:14] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  228. # [22:14] <takkaria> heh
  229. # [22:15] <takkaria> OK, I will
  230. # [22:15] <takkaria> I bet it's done like that for a reason though
  231. # [22:15] <MacDome> takkaria: thank you. don't be surprised if your bug is moved into Radar
  232. # [22:15] <MacDome> since CFNetwork is handled by a non-opensource team
  233. # [22:15] <MacDome> takkaria: but bugs are the only way to get fixes :) not sure if that's your blog post (I'm assuming not), but blog posts certainly don't get fixed :)
  234. # [22:15] <takkaria> it's not mine, no
  235. # [22:16] <MacDome> takkaria: anyway, thanks in advance for the bug~!
  236. # [22:16] * MacDome goes back to fixing webkit bugs
  237. # [22:17] <takkaria> I just saw it pasted in #netsurf (channel for a small browser written in C) and thought it would be of interest here
  238. # [22:17] <MacDome> takkaria: of most interst in bugzilla :) and secondly #webkit, but here works too :)
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  243. # [22:36] * gsnedders realises he is capitalising MUST and SHOULD and MAY in an email… Need less to do with RFC 2119…
  244. # [22:44] <takkaria> everyone should use OpenID, I'm sick of registering more than usual today
  245. # [22:44] <Philip`> Everyone should allow anonymous access
  246. # [22:47] * Quits: digx (n=rick@c-76-109-201-140.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) ("Leaving...")
  247. # [22:54] <jgraham> Philip`: That doesn't make sense for e.g. flickr
  248. # [22:54] <jgraham> (at least, not for the part you currently hav to register for)
  249. # [22:56] * jgraham notes that the word charset has 7 letters
  250. # [22:58] <jgraham> Philip`: Did you have a single page copy of the issues list somewhere?
  251. # [22:59] <Philip`> jgraham: canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/expand though it's maybe a little slow to generate
  252. # [22:59] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  253. # [23:00] <Philip`> That charset thing has been mentioned before
  254. # [23:00] <jgraham> Ah, I thought it would have been but I thought I should check
  255. # [23:01] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/011596.html
  256. # [23:01] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/message/%3Cea09c0d10706011740l797240ebncf31cf1403b0c5cb@mail.gmail.com%3E - hooray, Google has indexed the issues list
  257. # [23:05] * Philip` should perhaps add a search box
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  263. # [23:31] <rubys> Phillip`, hsivonen: fixed. Thanks!
  264. # [23:35] <Philip`> rubys: http://intertwingly.net/blog/?q=%00%80 looks unintended
  265. # [23:39] <Philip`> Also, it's annoying how everyone keeps fixing their code so my attempted demonstrations that XML is hard stop working :-p
  266. # [23:40] <hsivonen> rubys: cool
  267. # [23:45] <MacDome> Hixie: you reference ES4 with your \3 argument
  268. # [23:45] <MacDome> I found this in ES3: Informative comments: An escape sequence of the form \ followed by a nonzero decimal number n matches the result of the nth set of capturing parentheses (see 15.10.2.11). It is an error if the regular expression has fewer than n capturing parentheses. If the regular expression has n or more capturing parentheses but the nth one is undefined because it hasn't captured anything, then the backreference always succeeds.
  269. # [23:45] <Hixie> er i meant es3
  270. # [23:45] <MacDome> which doesn't quite seem to answer the question
  271. # [23:45] <MacDome> Hixie: could you be more specific in your ES3 reference?
  272. # [23:45] <Hixie> sure hold on
  273. # [23:45] <MacDome> Hixie: thank you
  274. # [23:48] <rubys> Phillip`: again, fixed. (Sorry! :-))
  275. # [23:49] * hsivonen just read a paper explaining the dire consequences of backreferences in "regular expressions"
  276. # [23:52] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-198-209.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  277. # [23:54] <Philip`> rubys: Seems to work - thanks :-)
  278. # [23:54] <rubys> try some UTF-8. :-)
  279. # [23:56] <Philip`> http://intertwingly.net/blog/?q=xyzzy%ef%bf%bf
  280. # [23:57] <Philip`> ...gives a parse error in Opera, not Firefox
  281. # [23:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: I get the YSoD in Firefox 2
  282. # [23:58] <hsivonen> not in Minefield, though
  283. # [23:58] <Philip`> Ah - FF3 automatically converts it to %EF%BF%BD
  284. # [23:59] <Philip`> (judging by what it shows in the magical address bar thing)
  285. # Session Close: Wed Jan 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)