/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-06 / end

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  33. # [03:06] <zcorpan> Hixie: can't you write valid html? :) http://tech.gtaero.net/2008/01/depressing-validation-results.html
  34. # [03:09] <Philip`> Validity is just a guideline :-)
  35. # [03:15] <othermaciej> I wonder why Apple's homepage fails to validate
  36. # [03:18] * zcorpan runs apple.com through v.nu
  37. # [03:21] <zcorpan> Error: Stray / in tag. The /> syntax is not permitted in HTML4. (HTML4-only error)
  38. # [03:21] <zcorpan> Error: Bad value search for attribute type on element input.
  39. # [03:21] <zcorpan> Error: Required attributes missing on element script.
  40. # [03:21] <zcorpan> Error: Duplicate attribute id.
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  42. # [03:25] <zcorpan> apart from duplicate id, those are not errors per html5, but validating as html5 yields many more other errors
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  57. # [07:03] <Hixie> zcorpan: fixed (except for the error that's actually an error in the html4 spec)
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  61. # [07:23] <G0k> hixie: any thoughts on my server-sent events proposal?
  62. # [07:44] <Hixie> i haven't looked at server-sent events recently
  63. # [07:45] <Hixie> however all feedback sent to the list ends up in the server-sent events folder and will be dealt with in due course
  64. # [07:45] <G0k> heh oki
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  74. # [08:44] <Hixie> 29 tests to go
  75. # [08:45] <Hixie> I'm looking for tests that fail in one of the top four browsers that cover any of the following subject areas but which are justifiable using only specifications that were in REC in 2004 or earlier:
  76. # [08:46] <Hixie> HTTP, URI, data:, NodeIterator, TreeWalker, Range, DOM Core, DOM Events, DOM Views, DOM Style, Selectors, HTML4, DOM2HTML, DOM manipulation, accessors, tables, forms, JavaScript, XHTML
  77. # [08:46] <Hixie> ...and which can be demonstrated purely from script
  78. # [08:46] <Hixie> i.e. that don't depend on rendering
  79. # [08:52] <jruderman> does IE still refuse to render application/xhtml+xml ?
  80. # [08:52] * MacDome bets there are lots of JS errors in svg usage :)
  81. # [08:54] <Hixie> i'm trying to avoid entering svg
  82. # [08:54] <othermaciej> do you have any http ones?
  83. # [08:54] <othermaciej> there's gotta be something good
  84. # [08:54] <Hixie> jruderman: yeah, they have no xhtml support. already have a basic test for that though.
  85. # [08:55] <othermaciej> or URI
  86. # [08:55] <Hixie> othermaciej: some simple ones, but i want to avoid anything that needs too much fancy server side config
  87. # [08:55] <othermaciej> yeah
  88. # [08:55] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm all ears if you know of anything to test
  89. # [08:55] <Hixie> othermaciej: i just can't find any more justifiable bugs! :-)
  90. # [08:56] <othermaciej> I dunno, it's hard to even think of techniques for testing
  91. # [08:56] <Hixie> well i'm really just looking for bugs
  92. # [08:56] <Hixie> i can come up with testing techniques
  93. # [08:58] <jwalden> Hixie: are there tests for things like |window.alert instanceof Function| and |window.alert.apply(null, ["stuff works!"])| ? I'm guessing yes but have to ask :-)
  94. # [09:01] <Hixie> "window" isn't justifiable using only specifications that were in REC in 2004 or earlier
  95. # [09:01] <Hixie> nor is anything relating to how DOM functions are exposed in JS, really
  96. # [09:04] <jwalden> sigh
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  100. # [09:15] <Lachy> Hixie, can you test for constants like Node.ELEMENT_NODE? IE lacks support for them
  101. # [09:18] * MacDome notes that IE already fails basically every test anyway :)
  102. # [09:18] <MacDome> if they passed Acid3 test as-is I'd be happy :)
  103. # [09:19] * MacDome notes that Safari 3.0.4 gets 60% while TOT gets 77%
  104. # [09:20] <Lachy> What's TOT?
  105. # [09:20] <MacDome> I lied, 61%
  106. # [09:20] <MacDome> top-of-tree/tip-of-tree, aka HEAD, aka the latest sources. TOT is an appleism
  107. # [09:21] <Lachy> ok, you mean the latest webkit?
  108. # [09:21] <MacDome> opera 9.5b1 gets 67%, FF3b2 gets 71%
  109. # [09:21] <MacDome> Lachy: yes, the latest webkit
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  111. # [09:21] <MacDome> although a new nightly hasn't been built yet
  112. # [09:21] <MacDome> I bet the most recent nightly gets like 75%, there have been a couple fixes tonight
  113. # [09:22] <MacDome> of course, hixie hasn't finished making the test yet, so there are still 30+ chances for failure
  114. # [09:22] <MacDome> so it' more like 40-something %
  115. # [09:23] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah that's already tested
  116. # [09:23] <Hixie> MacDome: safari screws up the rendering way more than, say, mozilla
  117. # [09:23] <MacDome> Hixie: it does render differently than your test expects, yes.
  118. # [09:23] <Hixie> :-)
  119. # [09:24] <MacDome> Hixie: I don't know all of the things which are being tested in the CSS parts yet
  120. # [09:24] <MacDome> Hixie: like what's that red square?
  121. # [09:24] <Hixie> the one with the cat?
  122. # [09:24] <Hixie> that's testing the <object> handling that acid2 failed to test, and which safari therefore failed to get right when fixing acid2
  123. # [09:26] <Lachy> cool, internal builds of Opera do slightly better than 9.5b1
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  125. # [09:27] <jwalden> Hixie: which part of object handling, incidentally?
  126. # [09:27] <Hixie> processing of Content-Type headers, iirc
  127. # [09:28] <jwalden> haha, exactly the bug I mentioned in a recent whatwg email :-)
  128. # [09:29] <jwalden> and filed, incidentally, as <http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16690>
  129. # [09:31] <Lachy> Hixie, how stable are the existing tests in acid 3? If I start extracting them and making individual test cases from them, are they likely to change in the future?
  130. # [09:33] <zcorpan> Lachy: does it matter, so long as the tests are correct? :)
  131. # [09:33] <Hixie> Lachy: very likely to change, but that doesn't matter, if you find bugs feel free to file them, they don't become less important
  132. # [09:33] <MacDome> Hixie: so we're supposed to ignore it due to the 404? http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16760
  133. # [09:34] <Hixie> i don't know if that's the bug, but yes, 404s should cause fallback
  134. # [09:34] <Hixie> but that shouldn't be the bug
  135. # [09:34] <Hixie> acid2 tested for that too
  136. # [09:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: testing <link rel=stylesheet href=not-css> will introduce yet another difference between quirks mode and standards mode...
  137. # [09:37] <Hixie> that's already a difference in firefox
  138. # [09:37] <zcorpan> true
  139. # [09:37] * zcorpan doesn't like differences though
  140. # [09:37] <Hixie> and it's important not to treat non-css files as css
  141. # [09:38] <Hixie> otherwise how will we introduce a new stylesheet language? or differentiate css from xslt?
  142. # [09:38] <zcorpan> you honor type=""
  143. # [09:39] <zcorpan> and let absense of type="" mean "text/css"
  144. # [09:39] <Hixie> what if you don't know in advance?
  145. # [09:40] <zcorpan> with xml-stylesheet, i've specced that absense of type="" means text/css. that's what browsers do. i guess <link> could work the same...
  146. # [09:42] <zcorpan> (i.e., to use xslt you have to specify type="" in the PI, or it doesn't work)
  147. # [09:44] <zcorpan> (xml-stylesheet currently requires the resource to be dropped if content-type doesn't match what was expected, like in firefox, but i might change that)
  148. # [09:46] <Hixie> but what if you don't know what the remote resourc's type is?
  149. # [09:47] <Hixie> we need some sort of mechanism for distinguishing remote content's type, whether that be content-type or sniffing or something else
  150. # [09:48] <zcorpan> with <link>, you would always know the type if the type defaults to text/css
  151. # [09:48] <zcorpan> no?
  152. # [09:49] <Hixie> no i mean say i have a URI that points to a stylesheet resource
  153. # [09:49] <Hixie> but nobody knows whether that resource is CSS or XSLT
  154. # [09:49] <Hixie> as it changes from day to day
  155. # [09:49] <zcorpan> ah
  156. # [09:49] <Hixie> what do i put in my markup?
  157. # [09:49] <zcorpan> if you load it in the top-level browsing context then you honor content-type
  158. # [09:50] <Hixie> not that helpful for a stylesheet
  159. # [09:50] <Lachy> why would an author link to a resource that randomly changes between CSS and XSLT?
  160. # [09:51] <zcorpan> oh, now i see the scenario. seems like a non-real-world scenario though
  161. # [09:51] <Hixie> it's not realistic today
  162. # [09:51] <Hixie> but what about in 100 years when we have a new stylesheet language that's insanely better than css?
  163. # [09:52] <zcorpan> you specify <link type="text/inherently-better-than-css"
  164. # [09:52] <zcorpan> s/inherently/insanely/
  165. # [09:52] <Lachy> you mean when the CSS working groups takes the XHTML2-approach to spec development?
  166. # [09:52] <Hixie> but you don't know if it's css or ibtcss
  167. # [09:52] <Hixie> some designers will use css, some won't
  168. # [09:52] <Lachy> by starting over instead of just making CSS better?
  169. # [09:53] <Hixie> and also, you don't want to require that ibtcss have this extra attribute, when the server can tell the client what the type is
  170. # [09:53] <Hixie> Lachy: occasionally, languages come along that are better enough that they really are worth boiling the oceans for
  171. # [09:53] <zcorpan> Hixie: that's already the case with XSLT and xml-stylesheet, though
  172. # [09:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: and that's a problem we should solve, rather than making it worse
  173. # [09:54] <zcorpan> i don't see requiring an attribute as a big problem
  174. # [09:55] <zcorpan> when we also have the requirement to work with mislabeled content
  175. # [09:55] <zcorpan> (well, at least in quirks mode)
  176. # [09:55] <Hixie> we can avoid that requirement in standards mode
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  178. # [09:57] <zcorpan> should i change xml-stylesheet to not default to text/css when type="" is absent?
  179. # [09:58] <Hixie> i would make the type="" attribute entirely advisory, just like with <link>
  180. # [09:58] <Hixie> and make the server have the final say
  181. # [09:58] <Hixie> just like http requires
  182. # [09:58] <zcorpan> also, type="text/xml" and type="application/xml" means xslt in browsers (except ie)
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  184. # [09:59] <Hixie> well, if the type is xml, the browser should parse it as xml, and if the namespace is xslt, then treat it as xslt
  185. # [09:59] <zcorpan> yeah
  186. # [10:01] * zcorpan revamps xml-stylesheet
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  192. # [10:36] <othermaciej> so is there anything in the Gears image manipulation API proposal that should be in Canvas?
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  194. # [10:40] <othermaciej> (it doesn't look like it can do anything that canvas can't do, actually)
  195. # [10:41] <annevk_zeist> yeah
  196. # [10:41] <annevk_zeist> maybe they implement it on top of <canvas>?
  197. # [10:42] <othermaciej> no idea
  198. # [10:42] <Hixie> afk
  199. # [10:43] <annevk_zeist> seems they also want to implement postMessage() from the WHATWG
  200. # [10:43] <othermaciej> I suggested that they just make it match the <canvas> API
  201. # [10:44] * MacDome met one of the gears dudes the other day
  202. # [10:44] * MacDome can't even remember his name, sadly
  203. # [10:45] <othermaciej> I don't really understand what Google really wants out of Gears
  204. # [10:46] <othermaciej> sometimes they seem to begrudge the idea that browsers would implement the same functionality natively
  205. # [10:46] <othermaciej> and seem uninterested in working with standards
  206. # [10:46] <othermaciej> but I figure we need to implement equivalent functionality in WebKit anyway
  207. # [10:46] <annevk_zeist> they did contribute to the HTML5 stuff a lot on the WHATWG list...
  208. # [10:46] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  209. # [10:46] <othermaciej> since Gears for Safari is not in a usable state right now and will probably always be behind
  210. # [10:47] <othermaciej> yes, they did help once stuff started getting added to the spec
  211. # [10:47] <othermaciej> which was good
  212. # [10:47] <MacDome> othermaciej: I would expect that gears is most useful for Google for IE
  213. # [10:47] * MacDome doesn't know though
  214. # [10:48] <MacDome> othermaciej: as IE doesn't have any gears functionality natively
  215. # [10:48] <MacDome> gears is much less exciting for Safari or FF
  216. # [10:48] <MacDome> IMO
  217. # [10:50] <othermaciej> it's certainly true that IE is less likely to add useful functionality needed for web apps in the near term
  218. # [10:51] <othermaciej> but I would think they might want to make feature requests to browser vendors who are interested in working with them (individually, cause I know they have the channels, or collectively via WHATWG) rather than just slap it all in a browser extension
  219. # [10:54] * MacDome shrugs
  220. # [10:54] <MacDome> I would guess that for some of those things it's easier to implement, try it out, and iterate
  221. # [10:54] <MacDome> since certainly some of those things need iteration
  222. # [10:54] <MacDome> feedback from app developers, etc.
  223. # [10:54] <MacDome> and writing your own, does make that an easier process
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  225. # [10:58] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5#processing updated
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  227. # [11:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Re: xml-stylesheet: Validator.nu does not check any PI contents. Should it?
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  229. # [11:00] <annevk_zeist> yes
  230. # [11:01] <hsivonen> annevk_zeist: which ones and to which specs?
  231. # [11:01] <annevk_zeist> http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 ?
  232. # [11:02] <hsivonen> annevk_zeist: any other? access-control perhaps?
  233. # [11:02] <annevk_zeist> access-control and xbl should probably wait until there are more implementations
  234. # [11:03] <hsivonen> ok
  235. # [11:03] <annevk_zeist> I would expect those to use the same tokenization rules as simon uses for xml-stylesheet btw
  236. # [11:03] <hsivonen> xml-stylesheet5 doesn't look like a stable spec...
  237. # [11:04] <annevk_zeist> maybe it's better to wait then
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  246. # [12:46] <kig> http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/cakenu.png well, that got out of hand. the svg renders at 15fps though so all i need is a lot of caching and only redrawing changed parts :|
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  249. # [13:08] <MacDome> kig?
  250. # [13:08] <kig> doing webdesign
  251. # [13:08] <MacDome> kig: if you have an SVG which performs poorly, I'd like to know about it so we can make it much better :)
  252. # [13:08] <kig> by mixing svg, canvas and html
  253. # [13:09] <kig> (or, planning to)
  254. # [13:09] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  255. # [13:10] <MacDome> kig: well, please file a bug if Safari's SVG implementation doesn't blow you away speed-wise :)
  256. # [13:10] <MacDome> we haven't done much profiling, but we'd love to make slow SVGs faster :)
  257. # [13:11] * kig renders svgs on canvas ...
  258. # [13:11] <kig> but yeah, i'll check if the svg renders correctly on safari, sec
  259. # [13:20] <kig> nice, 30fps on safari
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  261. # [13:21] <kig> but no gaussian blur filter (not that firefox has one either)
  262. # [13:25] <kig> and svg hasn't got much in the way of blend modes
  263. # [13:25] <kig> (even in the spec)
  264. # [13:30] * gsnedders wonders how quickly Hixie will reply to email
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  266. # [13:34] <kig> though svg 1.2 draft has all the good stuff
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  270. # [13:47] <MacDome> kig: if you have features you want from SVG 1.2, you should file bugs :)
  271. # [13:47] <MacDome> kig: however... we mostly think SVG 1.2 is totally wacko
  272. # [13:47] <MacDome> and are ignoring it for now
  273. # [13:47] <kig> yes, that
  274. # [13:48] <MacDome> kig: every time I sit down to hack on webkit, I check the list of SVG bugs :) Rob often scans through them as well and picks of easy ones
  275. # [13:48] <kig> it has everything! including all the things it shouldn't have!
  276. # [13:48] <MacDome> like my favorite: Socket :)
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  278. # [13:52] <kig> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/rendering.html <- comp-op would be nice, i haven't read the other things
  279. # [13:53] <kig> around 1/3 down
  280. # [13:53] <kig> heck, those'd be nice to have in canvas too
  281. # [13:54] <MacDome> kig: just file a bug asking for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/rendering.html#comp-op-prop supportr
  282. # [13:54] <MacDome> kig: we could probably do that pretty easily.
  283. # [13:54] <kig> yeah, i think CG already has all of those
  284. # [13:55] <kig> core image stuff or whatwasit
  285. # [13:55] <othermaciej> I'm not sure it has color-dodge or color-burn
  286. # [13:55] <othermaciej> I'm not even sure what those are
  287. # [13:56] <othermaciej> oh, that's not the 1.2 Tiny draft
  288. # [13:56] <othermaciej> that's an old draft of 1.2 Full
  289. # [13:56] <MacDome> yeah
  290. # [13:57] * kig never really understood the purpose of the porter-duff ops
  291. # [13:57] <MacDome> looks like it was dropped from tiny
  292. # [13:57] <MacDome> kig: I doubt we'd implement something out of an old draft of full
  293. # [13:57] <MacDome> unless there were folks actually gonna use it
  294. # [13:57] <kig> yes, i understand
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The end :)