/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 10 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: HERE
  4. # [00:07] <Hixie> er
  5. # [00:07] <Hixie> here
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  14. # [01:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: about <link> pointing to text/html... wouldn't this satisfy the requirements (except being HTTP compliant, perhaps)?: treat text/plain, text/html, text/css and bogus as text/css. this could work for both quirks and standards mode
  15. # [01:20] <zcorpan> and still allow for new styling languages to be introduced in the future
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  23. # [01:53] <Hixie> zcorpan: it certainly would be better.
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  61. # [08:01] <jwalden> Hixie: I assume you were asking for spec references (beyond just to ensure test correctness) to aid in writing an acid3 guide a la <http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/guide/>?
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  66. # [09:08] <Hixie> jwalden: no, not really
  67. # [09:08] <Hixie> jwalden: not sure what i'm gonna do for a guide yet
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  90. # [11:53] <kig> http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/redesign.html that sure is slow and heavy
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  92. # [12:28] <kig> but 60kB after stripping comments and gzipping (25k js.gz, 35k svg.gz)
  93. # [12:32] <Philip`> kig: Slow and heavy and probably not entirely practical, but still a pretty nice demonstration :-)
  94. # [12:33] <Philip`> It might be nice to send http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/cakenu2.svg with the right content-type, so that it works in proper SVG viewers too
  95. # [12:33] <Philip`> Incidentally, the page needs scrolling up/down annoyingly since my screen is too short :-(
  96. # [12:33] <kig> have to go bug the admin about the content-type
  97. # [12:35] <kig> i had a version that scaled the document to fit the page but i haven't made the html inserts work correctly with it
  98. # [12:37] <kig> all of those would be a lot easier to do with plain svg + foreignObjects for the textarea and canvas, heh
  99. # [12:42] <kig> width="100%" height="100%", align to bottom-left
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  105. # [14:29] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/xml/styling/pi/internal/xsl/001.xml and 003 are invalid... they produce malformed output
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  109. # [15:06] <Philip`> zcorpan: Maybe you could do BNF with error handling sort of vaguely like http://philip.html5.org/misc/xmlπ.txt
  110. # [15:10] <Philip`> (That's definitely not correct, but I think it's probably not fundamentally incorrect)
  111. # [15:17] <Philip`> (Oh, and entity expansion needs to be added as an extra post-parsing step)
  112. # [15:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: interesting
  113. # [15:23] <zcorpan> though i'm not sure it's worth rewriting it...
  114. # [15:24] <zcorpan> maybe i can have BNF as well in a Writing PIs with pseudo-attributes section, which doesn't deal with error handling
  115. # [15:25] <Philip`> It only has to be (re)written once, compared to lots of people reading it, so you should optimise for reads :-)
  116. # [15:25] <zcorpan> true... :)
  117. # [15:25] <Philip`> I don't know if the BNF is better or worse that the state machine, though
  118. # [15:25] <Philip`> (at least when including error handling, which makes the BNF more confusing)
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  120. # [15:26] <zcorpan> if anything, i think i'm gonna have both, and without the error handling in the BNF
  121. # [15:26] <Philip`> (s/that/than/)
  122. # [15:27] * gsnedders remembers he was going to email Hixie seeming he's been avoiding me here :P
  123. # [15:30] <zcorpan> Philip`: not sure if entity handling can be done as post-parsing without changing the algorithm, since it affects how duplicate pseudo-attrs are handled
  124. # [15:31] <zcorpan> <?xml-stylesheet href='&' href='x'?>
  125. # [15:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, allowing common attributes on a charset meta a at least a theoretical problem when it comes to converting between HTML and XHTML
  126. # [15:32] <zcorpan> oh, i guess it could if dropping duplicates is also done post-parsing
  127. # [15:32] <hsivonen> I wonder if I've said that before
  128. # [15:32] <Philip`> zcorpan: It can be done after the BNF parsing, and before the bit where it finds the matching productions an sticks them in the array
  129. # [15:32] <hsivonen> I get the feeling that I keep rediscovering issues each time a do a review sweep over the spec
  130. # [15:32] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah
  131. # [15:33] <hsivonen> is the meta name=dns thingy implemented somewhere?
  132. # [15:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: don't think so
  133. # [15:34] <hsivonen> ok
  134. # [15:34] <hsivonen> I wonder if it is worth the trouble
  135. # [15:34] * Philip` doesn't know how people usually define how to go from a BNF grammar into a useful data structure
  136. # [15:35] <zcorpan> Philip`: lack of whitespace between pseudo-attrs should also be a parse error
  137. # [15:35] <hsivonen> ooh. <style scoped> has changed substantially
  138. # [15:35] <Philip`> zcorpan: Does that parse error do anything at all?
  139. # [15:35] <zcorpan> Philip`: no
  140. # [15:35] <Philip`> Then why is it a problem to omit it? :-)
  141. # [15:36] <zcorpan> Philip`: because it doesn't work in opera, ie and safari, iirc
  142. # [15:36] <zcorpan> perhaps i should require it instead
  143. # [15:36] <Philip`> I did try to add that in, but then I realised it was hard (because of the "reconsume the current input character") and couldn't be bothered :-p
  144. # [15:36] <hsivonen> time to send mail about style scoped...
  145. # [15:39] <zcorpan> Philip`: does your BNF do "stop parsing" correctly?
  146. # [15:39] <Philip`> (By "hard" I just mean I couldn't work out how to do it nicely; there might still be a nice obvious way that I just haven't seen)
  147. # [15:40] <zcorpan> although i guess i could change the parsing rules slightly, it doesn't really matter if = in name stops parsing or not
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  149. # [15:42] <Philip`> zcorpan: Hmm, no, I think it parses '<?... foo bar...' totally wrong because it'll get the name foo and then skip the WS and then match the b and be an error and then go back around and match the ar as a name
  150. # [15:42] <Philip`> ...but that's easy enough to fix by adding a 'ANYTHING* EOF' in the 'stop parsing' places, I guess
  151. # [15:44] <zcorpan> perhaps it's because i'm not very used to BNF, but i don't see where the holes are... :) seems fragile
  152. # [15:45] <Philip`> I'd expect it's possible to automatically prove that it handles every input deterministically
  153. # [15:46] <zcorpan> that's good
  154. # [15:46] <Philip`> and then use test cases to show that it does what you expect it to do :-)
  155. # [15:46] <zcorpan> i'll have a look at this later
  156. # [15:46] <zcorpan> thanks for the help :)
  157. # [15:47] * Philip` wonders if it's easier to invent a new formal grammar system that does error handling
  158. # [15:48] <Philip`> or maybe just a more compact syntax for the English prose state machines that are so popular nowadays
  159. # [15:48] <anne-mac> gsnedders, I didn't forget it, I knew you'd fill it in :p
  160. # [15:48] <gsnedders> :P
  161. # [15:57] <Philip`> (By the way, SFTP to Dreamhost doesn't really like Unicode filenames :-( )
  162. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Advance Higher Computing isn't quite as bad as I originally thought! Not only is the course mostly correct(!), but the programming can be done in any language you want!
  163. # [16:00] <Philip`> Befunge!
  164. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Brainfuck!
  165. # [16:01] <Philip`> Perl 6!
  166. # [16:04] * gsnedders , realistically, could do with learning C++ better
  167. # [16:05] * Philip` likes C++
  168. # [16:05] * jwalden suggests whitespace
  169. # [16:06] <Philip`> so much so that I've got open a window showing Valgrind logs of memory leaks inside five levels of stack trace lines that just say "?"
  170. # [16:06] <gsnedders> that's even worse.
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  172. # [16:07] <Philip`> Oops, I meant "???", not "?"
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  180. # [17:09] <hsivonen> hrm. the issue of xml:space in XHTML5 is still not addressed in the spec
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  182. # [17:10] <anne-mac> ?
  183. # [17:10] <hsivonen> anne-mac: the XML spec says that it up to the vocabulary spec to say where xml:space is allowed
  184. # [17:11] <hsivonen> anne-mac: HTML 5 is silent
  185. # [17:11] <anne-mac> that means it's not allowed, no?
  186. # [17:11] <hsivonen> anne-mac: yes, and that's bad
  187. # [17:11] * anne-mac thinks xml:space is bad
  188. # [17:12] <hsivonen> anne-mac: for practical purposes, at least pre, textarea, style and script should allow xml:space='preserve'
  189. # [17:12] <zcorpan> i think xml:space should be allowed on all elements in the html namespace
  190. # [17:12] <hsivonen> anne-mac: well, in practice, not having xml:space sucks if you edit in e.g. oXygen
  191. # [17:13] <zcorpan> actually, i think xml:space should be allowed on all elements, regardless of namespace
  192. # [17:13] <zcorpan> (that or drop xml:space :) )
  193. # [17:14] <anne-mac> are XML editor allowed to drop inter-element whitespace if there's no DTD present?
  194. # [17:14] * gsnedders wonders what anne-mac will rely on me saying next
  195. # [17:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. for now, I'm making xml:space='preserve' a common attribute in XHTML5
  196. # [17:16] <anne-mac> seems this only applies to validating XML parsers which is not relevant for XHTML5
  197. # [17:16] * anne-mac notes that SVG redefines xml:space to mean something different
  198. # [17:16] <zcorpan> anne-mac: i would presume that an editor can do whatever it wants, so long as the result is conforming... no?
  199. # [17:16] <hsivonen> anne-mac: in practice, XML editors tamper with whitespace unless you tell them not to
  200. # [17:16] <hsivonen> anne-mac: especially if you as the editor to format source
  201. # [17:18] <anne-mac> hmm, maybe they should be fixed?
  202. # [17:19] <hsivonen> anne-mac: would you remove commands for reindenting source? or would you make the feature have vocabulary-specific knowledge?
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  204. # [17:22] <anne-mac> the latter
  205. # [17:23] <anne-mac> doesn't seem entirely unreasonable given the target audience of the language
  206. # [17:25] <hsivonen> does IE7 render some kind of quotation marks for <q> in the standards mode?
  207. # [17:25] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no
  208. # [17:26] <zcorpan> iirc
  209. # [17:26] <gsnedders> no, definitely.
  210. # [17:26] <hsivonen> thanks
  211. # [17:26] <hsivonen> <font color='...'> is probably more useful than <q>...
  212. # [17:28] <hsivonen> "Although there is no formal way to indicate the language of computer code being marked up, authors who wish to mark code elements with the language used, e.g. so that syntax highlighting scripts can use the right rules, may do so by adding a class prefixed with "language-" to the element." when did *that* appear?
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  216. # [17:38] <zcorpan> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1143&to=1144
  217. # [17:38] * Philip` wonders if web-apps-tracker can do something like 'svn blame'
  218. # [17:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. can I get the date of the change from the tracker?
  219. # [17:39] <zcorpan> yeah, from the main page... 2007-12-11 04:29
  220. # [17:39] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  221. # [17:49] <anne-mac> Philip`, patches accepted
  222. # [17:55] <gsnedders> anne-mac: can you set svn:mime-type on the XML5 repo so I can read the spec in the repo itself?
  223. # [17:55] * anne-mac is not familiar enough with SVN to configure such things
  224. # [17:55] <gsnedders> anne-mac: svn ps svn:mime-type .
  225. # [17:56] <gsnedders> hmm
  226. # [17:56] <gsnedders> that's not how :\
  227. # [17:56] <gsnedders> `svn pe svn:mime-type .`
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  229. # [17:58] <gsnedders> anne-mac: `svn ps svn:mime-type text/html trunk/specification/Overview.html`
  230. # [17:58] <gsnedders> that'll change it.
  231. # [18:00] * gsnedders wonders how to define finding the character encoding
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  253. # [20:12] <Lachy> hmm. this an incredibly complex solution to a problem that actually has an easy, though not quite ideal, solution http://monkey.paularms.com/awesome/almost/reverse-list/
  254. # [20:12] <Lachy> <ol><li value="10">item 10 <li value="9">item 9 ... <li value="1">item 1</ol>
  255. # [20:20] <hsivonen> gloves!
  256. # [20:23] <zcorpan> question: should <ol reverse> be inherited?
  257. # [20:23] <Lachy> no
  258. # [20:23] <Lachy> well, not if it's a boolean
  259. # [20:23] <zcorpan> ah, indeed
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  262. # [20:43] <zcorpan> so i guess the choise of boolean vs ascending/descending depends on the utility and impl complexity of inheritance
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  265. # [20:46] <zcorpan> i don't think i would expect it to be inherited. it would change the meaning of a list when it is pasted somewhere else (consider e.g. if you have a <blockquote> in between)
  266. # [20:50] * jgraham quite likes the idea of a step attribute but can't think of any truly compelling usecase
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  271. # [21:44] <zcorpan> perhaps i should make a tower defence game in <canvas>
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  273. # [21:46] <zcorpan> ...multiplayer
  274. # [21:47] <Philip`> ...with OpenGL
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  276. # [21:52] <Hixie> i have been thinking of making one of those, though not with opengl
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  301. # [22:41] <webben> hsivonen: As per spec, uses of font color=: 1) Making things pretty (but not in any way that CSS couldn't do). Uses of Q: 1) Unambiguously distinguish quotations from direct speech, scare quotes, etc. 2) Unambiguously associate a quotation with its source, for extraction, comparison, or backtracking. 3) CSS-based stylings for quotations, direct speech, and square allow you to repurpose text for different house styles.
  302. # [22:42] <webben> hsivonen: Q suffers from IE's implementation, but it's hard unique in that.
  303. # [22:44] <webben> Q also suffers from: poor implementations of CSS 2.1 generated content spec in other browsers, the insufficiency of CSS spec for quotation styling (although this is also a problem with raw markup), and the lack of an element for direct speech.
  304. # [22:44] <webben> Beyond that, it's alright.
  305. # [22:47] <webben> *and scare quotes allow you to repurpose, that should have read.
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  309. # [22:58] <Hixie> i'm amused that dean edridge, in one thread, tells me that he has self-declared himself my enemy, and then in a later thread he complains that i am ignoring him
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  311. # [23:00] <Hixie> HAHAHAHAHA
  312. # [23:00] * Hixie gets to the e-mail where dean claims we are trying not to upset the xhtml2 wg
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  331. # Session Close: Fri Jan 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)