/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'll try and impl it tomorrow
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  12. # [00:49] <annevk> Hixie, as far as I can tell event listeners are asynchronous which means that the UA could decide to not run process them directly but instead process some code further on...
  13. # [00:53] <Hixie> event listeners are synchronous.
  14. # [00:53] <Hixie> as in, when you dispatch an event, everything from that point to when it returns is synchronous
  15. # [00:53] <Hixie> see dom2 events
  16. # [00:53] <annevk> i guess i'll admit defeat
  17. # [00:53] * annevk wonders why everyone fails
  18. # [00:57] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  19. # [00:58] <Hixie> if nobody allows click() to nest, i can remove the test
  20. # [00:58] <Hixie> iirc, at least one browser nested at least once
  21. # [00:59] <annevk> could be
  22. # [01:02] * Philip` sees that http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/01/21/compatibility-and-ie8.aspx has reached exactly 666 comments
  23. # [01:03] <Philip`> It seems a bit odd that it's generated more noise than the Acid 2 post
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  25. # [01:03] <Hixie> why?
  26. # [01:03] <Hixie> microsoft has an image problem. people aren't going to be pro-ms until they have proven over years of not being evil that they are in fact good.
  27. # [01:03] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  28. # [01:04] <Hixie> acid2 is a small step in the right direction. the compatibility meta header is a giant step backwards.
  29. # [01:04] <billmason> I love the suggestion in the thread that any unknown doctype be rendered as XHTML 1.1. I think I'll stop reading the noise now.
  30. # [01:06] <Philip`> Hmm, okay, maybe it's not actually odd :-)
  31. # [01:08] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-c3bb25bd3744c6be)
  32. # [01:09] <annevk> Hixie, should access control and postMessage() align formats for origin etc?
  33. # [01:09] <annevk> (actually, the answer is yes, so we should probably resolve it...)
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  35. # [01:11] <Hixie> scheme://hostname:port
  36. # [01:11] <Hixie> it's just the uri format without a path
  37. # [01:13] <annevk> the differences were that your proposed format included a trailing slash and omitted the default port
  38. # [01:13] <annevk> from a very brief scan
  39. # [01:13] * annevk hasn't actually checked the spec though
  40. # [01:13] * annevk just the e-mail
  41. # [01:15] <annevk> sees that the spec doesn't have the trailing slash but does omit the default port
  42. # [01:16] <Hixie> yeah, i don't figure most people will include the port
  43. # [01:17] <annevk> ok, I suppose I could make that change to Access-Control-Origin
  44. # [01:18] <annevk> access-item is already flexible enough (does not allow / though)
  45. # [01:18] <Hixie> the / is part of the path
  46. # [01:18] <annevk> right
  47. # [01:18] <annevk> i was wondering whether to allow a trailing slash for copy & paste friendlyness
  48. # [01:19] <Hixie> well, postMessage() actually allows the entire URI
  49. # [01:19] <Hixie> it just ignores the path
  50. # [01:19] <Hixie> and it doesn't include it in event.origin, though that's poorly defined right now
  51. # [01:20] <annevk> k, i'm not going to change that for access-item
  52. # [01:23] <annevk> Hixie, maybe you should use the same syntax as access-item...
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  54. # [01:24] <Hixie> annevk: elaborate?
  55. # [01:26] <annevk> for the second argument of postMessage()
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  58. # [01:26] <Hixie> i mean, elaborate on what you would want changed in the syntax :-)
  59. # [01:26] <Hixie> right now, it's just a plain old uri/iri
  60. # [01:26] <annevk> so you can use postMessage("...", "example.org")
  61. # [01:27] <Hixie> oh
  62. # [01:27] <Hixie> why?
  63. # [01:27] <Hixie> that just seems like asking for confusion...
  64. # [01:27] <Hixie> i guess i'd recommend that access-item be simplified too :-)
  65. # [01:29] <annevk> hmm
  66. # [01:30] <Hixie> (in particular, i may just make postMessage("...", "example.org") resolve the uri locally instead of throwing an exception)
  67. # [01:31] <annevk> oh, and postMessage("...", "*.example.org") would work
  68. # [01:32] <Hixie> that would make it way more complex
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  70. # [01:32] <annevk> probably not so relevant for postMessage, indeed
  71. # [01:32] <Hixie> 99% of the time, you'll just do postMessage("...", e.origin);
  72. # [01:32] <Hixie> to prevent sending messages to new hosts
  73. # [01:32] <Hixie> and on the long run, you'll use endPoints, anyway
  74. # [01:33] <Hixie> and just use postMessage() to set up the original connection
  75. # [01:36] <annevk> suggestions for simplifying access-item are welcome on public-appformats btw :)
  76. # [01:37] <Philip`> Hmph, Opera (9.5) apparently doesn't let me add a doctype to a document
  77. # [01:37] <Dashiva> Opera only supports ninja doctypes
  78. # [01:38] <Philip`> Uhhh
  79. # [01:41] * Philip` makes it add a comment instead of a doctype
  80. # [01:45] * annevk -> bed
  81. # [01:45] <Philip`> Also, Opera deletes "--" from inside comments
  82. # [01:47] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.body.appendChild(document.createComment('a-b--c---d----e'))%3C%2Fscript%3E
  83. # [01:47] <Philip`> Looks like an Opera bug
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  87. # [02:00] <Hixie> does anyone have anything they'd like me to prioritise?
  88. # [02:04] <chrismurf> No, but thank you for asking :-)
  89. # [02:06] <Philip`> Someone should make something like JSON that can handle 'var x=[];x[0]=x'
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  91. # [02:30] <kingryan> Philip`: yaml can probably do that
  92. # [02:33] <Philip`> I think YAML has "&label" and "*label" to mark and refer to bits of structure when you want non-trees, and it seems to be quite handy when writing by hand
  93. # [02:33] <Philip`> (I've no idea how useful or ugly it is when automatically serialising, though)
  94. # [02:37] <Philip`> (But YAML is too crazy and complex to be used where interoperability matters - the spec is a hundred pages long)
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  96. # [02:39] <Hixie> so should U+0085 NEXT LINE (NEL) be a space character in html5?
  97. # [02:39] <Hixie> i'm thinking no.
  98. # [02:41] <Philip`> I'd like no because then I could pass UTF-8 through my ASCII parser and it'd still work alright
  99. # [02:42] * Hixie is randomly replying to feedback from random folders
  100. # [02:44] <Dashiva> Pick me, pick me!
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  102. # [02:45] <Hixie> which folder are you? :-)
  103. # [02:45] <Hixie> does dir="" always default to ltr?
  104. # [02:45] <Dashiva> Dunno, I just felt like saying it
  105. # [02:45] <Hixie> or is there a UA pref for the default?
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  107. # [02:54] <kingryan> Hixie: I would suspect that that's based on locales
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  137. # [08:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: re: NEL, please no
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  139. # [08:59] <hsivonen> Reason: non-ASCII syntax-significant chars => bad
  140. # [09:24] <annevk> Hixie, parsing could use an update
  141. # [09:37] <hsivonen> webben++ http://www.w3.org/mid/47B1B887.7040205@googlemail.com
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  158. # [12:15] <annevk> the DOM is so bloated :(
  159. # [12:15] <annevk> it's pretty sad
  160. # [12:15] <annevk> mostly because it's hard to change at this point
  161. # [12:18] <hsivonen> the DOM is very sad.
  162. # [12:19] <hsivonen> but the Attribute node thing might be changeable at this point
  163. # [12:19] <hsivonen> also getAttribute when the attribute is absent
  164. # [12:19] <annevk> so I was thinking about that
  165. # [12:19] <annevk> it seems to me that Attr is important because it has namespaceURI
  166. # [12:20] <annevk> so can we really change that?
  167. # [12:20] <hsivonen> do you mean enumerating the attributes instead querying one?
  168. # [12:21] <annevk> yeah
  169. # [12:24] <annevk> though maybe Attr could be changed in a way that it does not inherit from Node
  170. # [12:25] <annevk> because Note is fricking bloated
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  172. # [12:25] <annevk> s/Note/Node/
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  174. # [12:26] <hsivonen> it would be interesting to know if Attr is in practice used by any scripts except serializers
  175. # [12:26] <hsivonen> do Ajax libraries do that kind of looping over all attributes?
  176. # [12:30] <annevk> element.attributes is used I think
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  179. # [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen, btw, do you have a list of things where the DOM assumes UTF-16?
  180. # [13:05] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't.
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  182. # [13:06] <hsivonen> annevk: perhaps saying that the DOM requires it misses the point. it's JavaScript strings that assume 16-bit units
  183. # [13:07] <harri> DOM Range is a place where utf-16 is assumed
  184. # [13:07] <annevk> thanks
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  186. # [13:08] <annevk> i think i'll raise this with the SVG WG
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  188. # [13:08] <annevk> Opera does "UTF-16 units" for getNumberOfChars() and I think it makes sense to keep it that way
  189. # [13:08] <annevk> and not have a slightly different API just for SVG
  190. # [13:23] <gsnedders> hmm, Zs doesn't include u0009–u000D
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  193. # [13:30] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Feb/0017.html
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  198. # [14:29] <hsivonen> was there someone on this channel working on Comet stuff?
  199. # [14:30] <annevk> at some point
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  201. # [14:47] <annevk> man, who uses nodeiterator anyway?
  202. # [14:47] <annevk> complex :(
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  204. # [14:49] <annevk> and not just a little bit
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  212. # [15:11] <hsivonen> should OPTIONS on a non-existent URI path return 404?
  213. # [15:12] <hsivonen> presumably yes
  214. # [15:14] <annevk> as in, a non-existent GET URI path?
  215. # [15:16] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
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  217. # [15:16] <hsivonen> annevk: if the URI would be 404 on GET or POST
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  219. # [15:17] <annevk> either that or maybe METHOD NOT ALLOWED (405 or so?)
  220. # [15:19] <gsnedders> the method is allowed thoguh
  221. # [15:19] <gsnedders> *though
  222. # [15:19] <gsnedders> so that status code can't be used
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  226. # [15:38] <annevk> Hixie, where in DOM Level 2 Traversal is it defined what to do with incorrect return values for filters? Such as 'true' and 'false'?
  227. # [15:44] <hsivonen> something tells me Dmitry Turin hasn't paid good attention to what others (Hixie in particular) have written on public-html
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  230. # [15:45] <annevk> i always forget to bookmark those posts for reuse as I expect people to understand...
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  241. # [16:53] <hsivonen> I wonder if access-control is *now* stable enough to implement in Validator.nu...
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  246. # [16:57] <hsivonen> annevk: surely the GET algorithm should apply to HEAD as well
  247. # [16:57] <hsivonen> in access-control
  248. # [16:59] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  249. # [17:01] <annevk> I'm not sure how I far I want to open that door
  250. # [17:02] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  251. # [17:02] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Gecko source now has OPTIONS but still the Method-Check stuff
  252. # [17:02] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@76.111.161.30)
  253. # [17:02] * hsivonen implements per spec
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  260. # [17:06] <annevk> hsivonen, I'd wait for Firefox 3 to ship
  261. # [17:07] <hsivonen> annevk: do you expect changes to the single-URI policy version?
  262. # [17:12] <gsnedders> "from xxx import *" works fine as a normal import in Python, but how can you deal with such a thing when the module is bound to a variable?
  263. # [17:13] * Philip` wonders why #dom li:last-child::before doesn't work right in Firefox
  264. # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham__: maintaining backwards compat. is harder than I thought, because everything refers to specific classes/functions in the dom treebuilder
  265. # [17:17] <Philip`> Oh, it does work right in Firefox once you make it reflow or something
  266. # [17:25] <hsivonen> hrm. OPTIONS * seems like a useless complication that doesn't have an upside
  267. # [17:28] * Joins: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  268. # [17:28] <hsivonen> annevk: access-control could use a companion guide for server-side devs
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  271. # [17:41] <annevk> hsivonen, I hope on no changes whatsoever
  272. # [17:41] <annevk> however, I have hoped that for the past year
  273. # [17:45] <annevk> hsivonen, OPTIONS *? I'll remind you that you argued for using OPTIONS too :)
  274. # [17:46] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, OPTIONS is the right way to go, but OPTIONS * is still an unnecessary complication in RFC 2616
  275. # [17:47] <hsivonen> annevk: I've now deployed access-control on v.nu
  276. # [17:47] <annevk> have fun
  277. # [17:48] <hsivonen> annevk: but it seems that OPTIONS * stuff never reaches the servlet
  278. # [17:48] <hsivonen> not a problem. just weird
  279. # [17:48] <hsivonen> and useless
  280. # [17:49] <hsivonen> oops. And I broke html5.validator.nu and parsetree.validator.nu, it seems
  281. # [17:50] <annevk> that promises something for when less competent people start doing this :(
  282. # [17:51] <hsivonen> annevk: that's not related to handling options. it is another "fix" in the same checkout
  283. # [18:03] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  285. # [18:05] <hsivonen> fixed
  286. # [18:06] * gsnedders sighs, thinking his change to html5lib is finally working
  287. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Now, to commit.
  288. # [18:08] * gsnedders isn't sure if he ever has actually commited before, even though he's had perms for a while
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  290. # [18:13] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  291. # [18:30] <zcorpan> so the main reasons people use Transitional seems to be (1) be able to use target=_blank and (2) using software that emits markup that only validates as transitional (also mainly due to target=_blank)
  292. # [18:39] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
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  296. # [19:02] <webben> zcorpan: Isn't iframe also a factor?
  297. # [19:03] <webben> (a major factor, I mean)
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  301. # [19:04] <zcorpan> webben: less so than target=_blank, it seems. however, iframe is already valid html5
  302. # [19:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is this based on 10 answers to the sitepoint survey?
  303. # [19:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes, and the comments
  304. # [19:07] <zcorpan> s/people/people who are on sitepoint and read the thread and care enough to vote or comment/
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  308. # [19:16] <gsnedders> ergh.
  309. # [19:16] <gsnedders> html5lib relies on minidom's brokenness.
  310. # [19:18] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tools/parser/
  311. # [19:19] <Philip`> Currently missing quite a few bits (especially anything to do with CDATA or RCDATA etc) but generally it seems to work
  312. # [19:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: that your JS impl?
  313. # [19:19] <Philip`> Yes
  314. # [19:22] <gsnedders> <http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/trunk/python/src/html5lib/treebuilders/dom.py#97> — why do we set a readonly property?
  315. # [19:24] <Philip`> It's irritating that the DOM interface doesn't let you create as many DOMs as an XML parser or HTML parser can
  316. # [19:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: huh?
  317. # [19:25] <gsnedders> we set that readonly property to work around a bug in minidom, seemingly
  318. # [19:28] <Philip`> Oh, I suppose for ownerDocument you can just pass the doctype into createDocument and it'll work alright, so maybe you can do as much as an XML parser
  319. # [19:28] <Philip`> (but it's still not possible to write a proper HTML5 parser in JS because the DOM won't let you create elements and attributes with funny names)
  320. # [19:30] <zcorpan> Philip`: that's really useful
  321. # [19:31] * gsnedders wonders how else to work around that bug in minidom
  322. # [19:31] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why does the current workaround not work?
  323. # [19:32] <zcorpan> Philip`: are you catching invalid names for attributes?
  324. # [19:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: if you aren't using minidom, and you're using something that enforces the readonly-ness of the property, it breaks
  325. # [19:32] <gsnedders> How can I check if "Dom" is the module xml.dom.minidom?
  326. # [19:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: If the minidom bug doesn't affect any other DOMs, you could perhaps wrap the property-setting line in try/except and ignore failures
  327. # [19:33] <gsnedders> Philip`: the exception raised depends on what impl you're using, though
  328. # [19:35] <zcorpan> Philip`: is <foo:bar> handled correctly?
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  331. # [19:35] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oops, I wasn't checking attributes - fixed now
  332. # [19:36] <Philip`> zcorpan: Depends on what you mean by "correctly"
  333. # [19:36] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  334. # [19:36] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-2e0f0cf43efe1cc3)
  335. # [19:36] <zcorpan> Philip`: local name "foo:bar" rather than "bar"
  336. # [19:36] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  337. # [19:37] <gsnedders> zcorpan: some DOM's don't allow attributes to be created containing with a ":"
  338. # [19:37] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  339. # [19:37] <Philip`> zcorpan: It just does createElementNS('http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml', 'foo:bar'), which seems to work with localName correctly
  340. # [19:37] <zcorpan> gsnedders: the w3c dom does
  341. # [19:38] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  342. # [19:38] <gsnedders> s/'//
  343. # [19:38] <zcorpan> Philip`: i think that ends up being a "bar" element
  344. # [19:38] <Philip`> s/work/not work/
  345. # [19:38] <Philip`> I agree now :-)
  346. # [19:38] <Philip`> <foo:p><p> gets parsed wrongly
  347. # [19:38] <Philip`> (because my code just tests localName)
  348. # [19:38] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I get a "foo:bar" in Saf3
  349. # [19:39] * Philip` wonders how he should fix that
  350. # [19:40] <zcorpan> Philip`: either createElement() or throw when there are colons
  351. # [19:40] <Philip`> zcorpan: Could createElement work when I want these things to be in the HTML namespace?
  352. # [19:41] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  353. # [19:41] <zcorpan> Philip`: if the browser puts them in the html namespace then yes :)
  354. # [19:43] <Philip`> Why would it put them in the HTML namespace, when they're not being added into an existing HTML document?
  355. # [19:44] <zcorpan> ah. hmm. perhaps because dom5 core will require it? :)
  356. # [19:44] <Philip`> document.implementation.createDocument('a', 'b', null).createElement('foo:bar').namespaceURI only works in Opera :-(
  357. # [19:48] <zcorpan> Philip`: how come <foo:p><p> and <foo:a><a> are different?
  358. # [19:54] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  359. # [19:56] <Philip`> zcorpan: <foo:a> doesn't get added to the list of active elements, since it's not an "a" start tag, and so the <a> doesn't realise there's already an active "a"
  360. # [19:56] <Philip`> where <foo:p> does get added to the stack of open elements, and so the <p> does think there's already a "p"
  361. # [19:59] <Philip`> zcorpan: I've updated it to distrust anything that's not /^[a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9_.-]*$/, which will hopefully avoid those problems
  362. # [20:01] <zcorpan> Philip`: that seems a bit harsh
  363. # [20:01] <zcorpan> are there other characters than the colon that are problematic?
  364. # [20:02] <Philip`> zcorpan: Anything that's not an XML Name should cause an exception
  365. # [20:02] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah, but it did that before too, no?
  366. # [20:03] <zcorpan> (modulo browser bugs)
  367. # [20:03] <Philip`> It used to cause an exception and then catch it and get rid of anything that's /[^a-zA-Z_]/
  368. # [20:03] <Philip`> (except in browsers that failed to throw the exception)
  369. # [20:04] <Philip`> (in which case it'd act inconsistently with other browsers, which is probably undesirable)
  370. # [20:05] <zcorpan> well, i guess there are few valid reasons to use <embed ☺> anyway
  371. # [20:05] <Philip`> Or maybe I should just use createElement and forget about the namespace thing, at least for the DOM-viewer version
  372. # [20:05] <zcorpan> sounds reasonable
  373. # [20:06] <Philip`> except that shouldn't help because createElement and setAttribute should still throw exceptions if it's not an XML Name
  374. # [20:06] <zcorpan> it solves the colon problem
  375. # [20:06] <Philip`> (and the only difference is it doesn't have to be a QName)
  376. # [20:07] <zcorpan> and that createElement() takes local name as input rather than qname
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  379. # [20:10] <Philip`> zcorpan: Okay, I've changed it to just use createElement by default, and to be more permissive about characters
  380. # [20:10] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  381. # [20:12] <Philip`> (It accepts /^[a-zA-Z:_][a-zA-Z0-9:_.-]*$/, else it gets rid of all /[^a-zA-Z_]/)
  382. # [20:12] <zcorpan> why not check against the Name production?
  383. # [20:12] <Philip`> Because that seems long and complex and not very useful
  384. # [20:13] <zcorpan> ok, why not let the browser throw then?
  385. # [20:14] <Philip`> Because then it'll give different output in different browsers (depending on the browser's bugs), which will be a little confusing
  386. # [20:15] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-06dc43f1fd9b1143)
  387. # [20:17] <zcorpan> but testing nonascii or random junk is useful
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  390. # [20:18] * zcorpan is off for food
  391. # [20:18] <Hixie> "Either they continue to use HTML4 Transitional, or they stop to care about conformance, or they use
  392. # [20:18] <Hixie> scripts to insert the target attribute or use window.open().
  393. # [20:18] <Hixie> "
  394. # [20:18] <Hixie> the last two options are the same as the second option
  395. # [20:19] <Philip`> "the stop to care about the output of conformance checkers"
  396. # [20:19] <Philip`> s//y/
  397. # [20:20] <Hixie> conformance checkers should check script too
  398. # [20:20] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-06dc43f1fd9b1143)
  399. # [20:21] <Hixie> would be interesting to write a conformance checker that supported rewinding
  400. # [20:21] <Hixie> that just went down every branch
  401. # [20:21] <Hixie> checking arguments to every method, etc
  402. # [20:22] <Philip`> Bonus points if it doesn't take infinite time
  403. # [20:22] <Hixie> well obviously it wouldn't check everything
  404. # [20:23] <Hixie> but you could catch a number of simple things
  405. # [20:24] <Philip`> So some well-intentioned person will write some obfuscated code that opens windows in a way the conformance checker can't detect, and then other well-intentioned people will copy-and-paste that so that their pages validate successfully
  406. # [20:24] <Hixie> and they'll get a warning "warning: script could not be verified"
  407. # [20:25] <Hixie> if people want to ignore a validator, why would they use a validator?
  408. # [20:25] <Philip`> They'll ignore those warnings because every non-trivial script will give that warning
  409. # [20:25] <Hixie> i think most people don't realise that setting target from script is non-conforming
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  413. # [20:27] <Philip`> It's hard enough trying to decide that some code will always terminate, without always giving up and saying "can't verify code"
  414. # [20:32] <Hixie> i'm just sayin', it'd be useful
  415. # [20:32] <Philip`> Many impossible things would be useful :-)
  416. # [20:32] <Philip`> s/impossible/hard/
  417. # [20:33] <weinig> annevk: just to update you on what olliej mentioned last night
  418. # [20:33] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  419. # [20:33] <weinig> annevk: I am in the process of implementing the new postMessage
  420. # [20:33] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  421. # [20:34] <weinig> annevk: it has not landed yet though
  422. # [20:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: can you fix the occurrence of title"" in source?
  423. # [20:34] * weinig is now known as sweinig
  424. # [20:34] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
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  427. # [20:46] <Hixie> gsnedders: i thought i had
  428. # [20:47] <gsnedders> Hixie: oh, wait. I doing this from a local copy.
  429. # [20:47] * gsnedders looks at the current copy
  430. # [20:47] <gsnedders> yeah, it's fixed.
  431. # [20:47] <Hixie> k
  432. # [20:48] * gsnedders is too tired
  433. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: for the cross-referencing (per HTML 5) should I do any normalisation (of whitespace? of Unicode? or case?) before calculating cross references?
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  435. # [20:50] <Hixie> space characters should go to one space, yeah
  436. # [20:50] <Hixie> several of the title attributes and element contents span multiple lines
  437. # [20:50] <gsnedders> currently the spec says it must be exactly identical
  438. # [20:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: (I mean in the HTML 5 def of dfn)
  439. # [20:51] <Hixie> probably best to normaline case too
  440. # [20:51] <Hixie> yeah that's all gonna be dropped i think
  441. # [20:51] <gsnedders> ah.
  442. # [20:54] * gsnedders notes that on his private playing around copy that actually processing the DOM is now slower than parsing
  443. # [20:55] <Philip`> import psyco
  444. # [20:55] <Philip`> Makes things much faster!
  445. # [20:56] * gsnedders ponders
  446. # [20:56] * gsnedders expands graph
  447. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Okay, that isn't good.
  448. # [20:57] <gsnedders> Python is definitely too slow. That sucks.
  449. # [20:57] <Philip`> You could use Java
  450. # [20:58] <gsnedders> I know no Java, which is a slight issue.
  451. # [20:58] <Hixie> python is slow, generally, but i wouldn't bet on python's speed being the gating factor unless you're making a ray tracer or something
  452. # [20:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: or maybe `cat header_whatwg source` is too big for a python spec-gen :)
  453. # [20:59] <Hixie> shouldn't be
  454. # [20:59] <Hixie> i mean, the overhead isn't going to be _that_ big, regardless of what language you use
  455. # [21:00] <Hixie> (the spec splitter is a python script, e.g.)
  456. # [21:01] <zcorpan_> Hixie: ok, s/conformance/validating their documents/
  457. # [21:02] * gsnedders thinks he could try doing this another way, actually
  458. # [21:02] <zcorpan_> Hixie: also, window.open() isn't non-conforming, is it?
  459. # [21:02] <Hixie> zcorpan_: window.open with _blank is
  460. # [21:02] <Hixie> iirc
  461. # [21:02] <zcorpan_> window.open(url) works
  462. # [21:03] <Hixie> iirc that's non-conforming
  463. # [21:03] <Hixie> oh, i guess it's not explicitly non-conforming
  464. # [21:03] <Hixie> oh well
  465. # [21:03] <Hixie> anyway i think you're right, and _blank will just have to be made valid. we'll just have to make it optional to implement instead.
  466. # [21:04] * gsnedders thinks he'll be able to do it in a more memory expensive way
  467. # [21:04] <zcorpan_> makes sense
  468. # [21:04] <gsnedders> (but the overhead is still not that big)
  469. # [21:04] <Hixie> zcorpan_: any time the spec requires opening a new top-level browsing context, i think the current one should be selected instead
  470. # [21:04] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i'm getting more and more annoyed by sites that decide when i'm opening a page in a new tab
  471. # [21:05] <Hixie> and since all i have is a spec-hammer, all problems look like spec-nails to me
  472. # [21:05] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yeah, but that's configurable in the browser
  473. # [21:05] <bradee-oh> Hixie: weinig has a question for you (and he's a pansy)
  474. # [21:05] <Hixie> not currently, but yeah
  475. # [21:05] <Hixie> bradee-oh: brt
  476. # [21:06] <zcorpan_> Hixie: using the spec-hammer doesn't stop sites opening new windows, it just makes it harder to configure because it becomes an arms race
  477. # [21:06] <gsnedders> jgraham__: ping
  478. # [21:06] <Hixie> zcorpan_: yeah
  479. # [21:06] <weinig> Hixie: hey, we were just curious what an <ihost> refers to?
  480. # [21:07] <Hixie> weinig: same as <host>, but for IRIs
  481. # [21:07] <weinig> Hixie: ah, ok
  482. # [21:07] <Hixie> weinig: did i use it in a paragraph without a reference?
  483. # [21:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: in Resource metadata management
  484. # [21:08] <Hixie> oops
  485. # [21:08] <Hixie> someone send mail :-)
  486. # [21:08] <gsnedders> weinig: can you?
  487. # [21:08] <weinig> gsnedders: sure
  488. # [21:09] <weinig> Hixie: I will also send mail regarding this, but, is postMessage supposed to work with file: urls?
  489. # [21:09] <gsnedders> (i.e., not the guy who pointed out where it was, but the one who found it)
  490. # [21:09] <Hixie> weinig: basically, anything involving file: URIs is not my concern, since you don't need interop for anything that's using file: URIs. so it's up to you.
  491. # [21:09] <Hixie> weinig: but generally i would say i guess it would work, but origin would be null
  492. # [21:10] * weinig nods
  493. # [21:10] <gsnedders> Hixie: when replacing spaces for x-refs, what space characters should be done? just ASCII ones?
  494. # [21:12] <Hixie> i'd just do whatever falls under the "space character" definition in html5
  495. # [21:12] <gsnedders> k.
  496. # [21:12] <Hixie> but for me, it just needs to be space and linefeed
  497. # [21:12] <gsnedders> all "me" Hixie :)
  498. # [21:21] * gsnedders doesn't particually want to commit this to html5lib because he expects he'll be shot for it
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  506. # [22:11] <jgraham__> gsnedders: I'm kinda here
  507. # [22:12] <gsnedders> jgraham__: would I be shot if I committed a "except Exception"?
  508. # [22:12] <gsnedders> specifically, to work around a bug in minidom
  509. # [22:12] <jgraham__> No, well you would unless you just write except: (no need for the Exception bit) :)
  510. # [22:13] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Yeah, that seems like a reasonable use case
  511. # [22:13] <jgraham__> (I read the logs earlier)
  512. # [22:13] <gsnedders> the exact exception depends on the DOM impl, as I said
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  514. # [22:14] <jgraham__> Yeah, the alternative (if Dom == xml.dom.minidom) seems just as bad
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  517. # [22:18] <gsnedders> jgraham__: and should I add pxdom to the parser tests even though one test fails, due to a bug in pxdom?
  518. # [22:19] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Yeah, for sure. But email html5lib-discuss@googlegroups.com explaining why the test fails
  519. # [22:19] <gsnedders> k
  520. # [22:19] <gsnedders> (I've already emailed the author of pxdom about the bug, fwiw)
  521. # [22:23] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Have you looked at making multiple dom imps work with treewalkers
  522. # [22:24] <gsnedders> jgraham__: I haven't yet tried, but a quick look at the code made me think it would work
  523. # [22:24] <jgraham__> Yeah, I don't know how much woulkd need to be changed. Maybe just adding pyxdom to the tests
  524. # [22:24] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  525. # [22:25] <gsnedders> jgraham__: what file would they need to be added in for that?
  526. # [22:25] <gsnedders> test_treewalkers.py?
  527. # [22:26] <jgraham__> tests/testtreewalkers.py
  528. # [22:26] <jgraham__> yeah.
  529. # [22:27] <annevk> thanks weinig
  530. # [22:30] <gsnedders> jgraham__: yeah, it works fine with the DOM treewalker.
  531. # [22:30] <gsnedders> (pending the other bug that comes up again)
  532. # [22:30] <jgraham__> Great
  533. # [22:37] <gsnedders> I think I'll send a general email about what I've done
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  536. # [22:49] * gsnedders commits and sends email
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  538. # [22:53] <Hixie> updated http://www.hixie.ch/specs/dom/messages/0.9
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  540. # [22:56] <annevk> could you add some rational etc?
  541. # [22:57] <annevk> it's not really clear to me what problem it's trying to solve
  542. # [22:59] <Hixie> rationale, you mean?
  543. # [22:59] <Hixie> sure
  544. # [23:00] <annevk> yeah
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  554. # [23:36] <Hixie> it would be interesting to have a .reply() API for the postMessage() stuff
  555. # [23:47] <aroben> Hixie: in, e.g., step 2.4 of the postMessage() algorithm, does "these steps" mean the substeps of step 2 or all the steps of the algorithm?
  556. # [23:47] <aroben> Hixie: I assume the latter
  557. # [23:53] <Hixie> all of them
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  661. # Session Close: Thu Feb 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)