/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 05 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:16] <jgraham> Highly unpolished and quite probably wrong at least sometimes: http://james.html5.org/outliner.html
  8. # [00:17] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  9. # [00:22] <Hixie> does it work on the spec? :-)
  10. # [00:23] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
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  12. # [00:23] <jgraham> Hixie: Define work :)
  13. # [00:23] <annevk> cool stuff
  14. # [00:24] * annevk plyed with <h1>1</h1><h5>2</h5><section><h3>3</h3><section><h2>4
  15. # [00:24] <annevk> played, even
  16. # [00:27] <jgraham> Oh and fwiw, I have serious doubts about making <td> a sectioning root element. My guess is that that will make the algorithm useless for a significant amount of real-world content
  17. # [00:27] <annevk> the algorithm is already useless for that if it only takes into account <h1>-<h6>
  18. # [00:28] <annevk> for real world content you want to base this stuff on computed style information
  19. # [00:28] <jgraham> annevk: A non-trivial number of pages use <h1>-<h6> in a semi-sane way
  20. # [00:28] <annevk> so given that you might as well discourage table for layout madness
  21. # [00:29] <annevk> jgraham, inside <table>?
  22. # [00:29] <Hixie> jgraham: i would agree, if it wasn't for the problem of legitimate uses of headers inside cells being cases where you _would_ want it treated a sectioning root
  23. # [00:29] <jgraham> Hixie: Example?
  24. # [00:30] * jgraham can't really think of why you would want headers in tables at all
  25. # [00:30] <Hixie> a character sheet where one of the cells is the characters's background story
  26. # [00:31] <jwalden> a page using tables for layout
  27. # [00:31] <jgraham> And the story has multiple subheadings?
  28. # [00:31] <Hixie> yeah
  29. # [00:31] <Hixie> jwalden: we already know that's non-conforming :-)
  30. # [00:32] <jwalden> just stating the practical response :-)
  31. # [00:32] <jgraham> jwalden: That's the case that is currently unsupported by the algorithm
  32. # [00:32] <jwalden> er, pragmatic
  33. # [00:32] <jgraham> and that I think needs to be supported
  34. # [00:33] <Hixie> if i made it a sectioning element it still wouldn't work
  35. # [00:33] <Hixie> for real content
  36. # [00:34] <jgraham> I think for real content it would have to be ignored.
  37. # [00:35] <Hixie> right, which isn't compatible with conforming content
  38. # [00:35] <jgraham> I'm not sure how to deal with the character sheet example other than to say "don't use a table for that", which seems a stretch as a table isn't obviously wrong
  39. # [00:35] <Hixie> and as much as we want to make legacy pages work, valid semantic pages have to be a higher priority imho
  40. # [00:37] <jgraham> I guess it would be nice to look at how headings as descendants of table content are actually used in the real world
  41. # [00:39] <jgraham> On an (not) entirely different topic, is there a good reason to call the current outline element /current outlinee/ rather than, say, /current outline element/
  42. # [00:41] <jgraham> which looks less like a typo and prevents me from having to make the same translation every time in my head
  43. # [00:41] <Hixie> heh
  44. # [00:41] <Hixie> well it's not the "current outline element"
  45. # [00:42] <Hixie> it's the "element that is currently having an outline created for it"
  46. # [00:42] <Hixie> i don't mind changing it to something else if you have a suggestion that's correct :-)
  47. # [00:42] <Hixie> so supporting <table><select><table> turned out way simpler than i expected
  48. # [00:43] <Hixie> i must have misunderstood something
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  50. # [00:47] <jgraham> Oh I hadn't read outlinee like that at all. I guess that's wwhat happens when you use made up words even if they do follow standard morphological rules :)
  51. # [00:48] <Hixie> :-)
  52. # [00:50] <annevk> <input> closes <select>, interesting
  53. # [00:53] <Hixie> yeah a webkit bug was just filed on this
  54. # [00:54] <annevk> btw, browsers other than IE7 also reprocess <select> when found in "in select"
  55. # [00:55] <annevk> (tested Firefox and Opera)
  56. # [00:55] <annevk> nn
  57. # [00:55] * annevk -> bed
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  59. # [00:57] <Hixie> doesn't the spec already say that?
  60. # [00:59] <Hixie> heh, i think my script handles "<!DOCTYPE html> <table border> <b><p>a</b> <td> b" as we'd want because it pushes a <#bucket> node onto the stack when doing foster parenting
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  65. # [01:07] <Hixie> jgraham: i pasted the html5 spec into the outliner algorithm and it didn't do anything (After hanging safari for a few minutes)
  66. # [01:07] <Hixie> just said "updating..."
  67. # [01:08] <jgraham> Hixie: The HTML5 spec seems to kill lxml, which I;m using to construct the tree
  68. # [01:08] <Hixie> ah
  69. # [01:09] <jgraham> (I haven't got as far as making the updating... thing go away if there is an error)
  70. # [01:09] <jgraham> specifically lxml 1.3.6 doesn't like the doctype <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
  71. # [01:16] <Hixie> heh
  72. # [01:18] * jgraham fixes the bug in html5lib; will deploy tomorrow
  73. # [01:18] * eseidel wonders if jgraham is the author of html5lib
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  77. # [01:23] <jgraham> eseidel: I am one of the authors along with annevk and various others
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  79. # [01:26] <jgraham> Hixie: It doesn't work quite right on the spec atm
  80. # [01:27] <jgraham> but that's another problem for tomorrow
  81. # [01:27] * jgraham -> bed
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  83. # [01:34] <Hixie> nn
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  86. # [01:40] * Philip` looks at some data and discovers surprisingly that the web is a mess
  87. # [01:41] <Philip`> It looks like it's actually about as broken as the rest of the internet
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  90. # [02:03] <Philip`> On the positive side, 100% of pages that declare themselves as iso-8859-1 can be decoded with no errors
  91. # [02:04] <Philip`> On the less positive side, only 94% of pages declared as utf-8 can be decoded without errors
  92. # [02:04] <Philip`> and 84% of gb2312
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  94. # [02:10] <Philip`> http://validator.nu/?doc=http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc303 - some people can't even get us-ascii right
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  99. # [02:47] <Philip`> How does MetaSniffer think that pages like http://fqq.com/ have charset "x-windows-874"?
  100. # [02:48] <Philip`> There's 58 of them, and none seem to actually say "x-windows-874" anywhere inside them...
  101. # [02:51] <Philip`> Oh, that's because I'm asking it for the canonical name of the sniffed charset
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  231. # [05:55] <Hixie_> these fixes are proving remarkably easy to do
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  245. # [08:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: would you consider the pause of a WebKit release build on Acid3 (around test 26) to constitute a failure?
  246. # [08:14] <othermaciej> (I think it pauses less than any other browser but it's still noticeable)
  247. # [08:17] <Hixie> yes, though obviously nowhere as serious as anything else
  248. # [08:18] <othermaciej> I'm not sure it is possible to pass then
  249. # [08:19] <othermaciej> but I guess we'll look at it once we fix everything else
  250. # [08:19] <othermaciej> (up to 90/100 now)
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  274. # [09:01] <annevk> Hixie, not, the current spec treats a <select> start tag specially in "in select" and different from <input>
  275. # [09:04] <Hixie> hm?
  276. # [09:05] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  277. # [09:06] <annevk> <select><option>...<select><option>...
  278. # [09:06] <hsivonen> annevk, jgraham: are you fixing the html5lib tests to match Hixie's spec changes?
  279. # [09:06] <annevk> In Firefox and Opera that generates 2 selects
  280. # [09:06] <annevk> In IE and HTML5 it generates 1
  281. # [09:07] <Hixie> ok...
  282. # [09:07] <Hixie> that's good, no?
  283. # [09:07] <annevk> yeah, maybe it is
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  285. # [09:08] <annevk> Hixie, btw, you're still going to fix EOF handling, etc right?
  286. # [09:08] <annevk> and hopefully form parsing
  287. # [09:09] <Hixie> actually nobody mailed about that, but yes, there's a big red note about that in the spec, no?
  288. # [09:09] <Hixie> oh crap did i remove that note?
  289. # [09:09] <Hixie> hm
  290. # [09:09] <Hixie> send mail!
  291. # [09:09] <Hixie> :-)
  292. # [09:10] <Hixie> bbiab
  293. # [09:11] <annevk> i e-mailed about form parsing, i'll complain about eof handling once i've read the rest of your e-mail and the spec changes
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  295. # [09:14] <Hixie> k thanks
  296. # [09:14] <Hixie> please do mail me, i'll try to address it relatively soon if you send it tonigth
  297. # [09:15] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  298. # [09:15] <om_sleep> Hixie: fwiw, Safari would have to be 3-4x faster to avoid visibly pausing (to my eye) on test 26
  299. # [09:15] <om_sleep> I hope SJ has some sweet hardware announcements this year
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  303. # [09:19] <annevk> in revision 1345 it was removed
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  305. # [09:26] <annevk> so the problem with html5lib is that all these other projects rely on it and when I want to fix parser bugs I have to fix their testcases too
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  313. # [10:04] <Philip`> annevk: Also the problem is that when I want to fix the test cases so they work in my parser, I have to fix html5lib because it's not nice to leave failing tests
  314. # [10:12] <annevk> i agree that that's not ideal
  315. # [10:13] <annevk> i don't really have good ideas other than to fork html5lib to make it about parsing again
  316. # [10:14] <annevk> Because I did really like having the Python reference implementation
  317. # [10:14] <annevk> "reference"
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  319. # [10:17] <Philip`> Maybe it'd help to move the testdata into a separate project, so it can be updated independently of any one implementation, and then occasionally import certain revisions into html5lib once html5lib is made to pass those tests?
  320. # [10:18] * Philip` might try looking at the updated parser spec in the next week or so, to see what's changed and to fix tests and things
  321. # [10:19] <annevk> we could put the test stuff in http://code.google.com/p/html5/
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  327. # [11:04] <zcorpan> i remember someone had a master's thesis about mobiles and xhtml
  328. # [11:05] <zcorpan> ah found it
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  330. # [11:06] * annevk makes some new HTML parsing tests to cover the changes
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  332. # [11:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: out of curiosity, whose thesis was that? hendry's?
  333. # [11:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah
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  335. # [11:11] <jgraham> annevk: I don't see why you would need to fork html5lib to update the tests
  336. # [11:11] <hendry> zcorpan: heh :)
  337. # [11:11] <hendry> not sure if any bits are relevant. I want to rewrite it. ;)
  338. # [11:11] <annevk> jgraham, the problem is all the related projects
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  340. # [11:11] <jgraham> My opinion is that if we are broken per spec then there's no problem with fixing the tests and sending mail
  341. # [11:12] <jgraham> annevk: Related to what?
  342. # [11:12] <jgraham> Also note that c.g.c/p/html5lib -> c.g.c/p/html5 involves a small license change
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  344. # [11:13] <annevk> true, i don't really want to fork it
  345. # [11:14] <hsivonen> fwiw, I don't mind if the html5lib tests move ahead of the Validator.nu parser
  346. # [11:14] <hsivonen> it won't break my build or anything like that
  347. # [11:15] <hsivonen> actually, I'm kind of hoping that someone other than me fixed the tests :-)
  348. # [11:16] <jgraham> Although it's not quite the tdd philosophy, I'd much rather have some already failing tests to help get the changes right
  349. # [11:17] <annevk> i'll fix the html5lib python parser and the tokenizer and parser tests
  350. # [11:17] <annevk> everything else is screwed
  351. # [11:17] * jgraham still isn't sure what constitutes "everything else" here
  352. # [11:17] <annevk> i made a runparsertests.py that only does "test_tokenizer.py", "test_parser.py", "test_parser2.py"
  353. # [11:18] <annevk> and not serializer, validator, etc.
  354. # [11:24] <Philip`> I think the html5lib tokeniser tests are up to date now
  355. # [11:24] <Philip`> though I could have easily missed some bits
  356. # [11:25] <hsivonen> virtuelv: about.validator.nu now has a table of contents
  357. # [11:26] <virtuelv> hsivonen: thanks
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  365. # [12:15] <annevk> jgraham, yt?
  366. # [12:16] <annevk> I need some help with the table crap. HTML5 now has this concept of tainted tables where we only have some table insertion magic. Do you (or anyone else) see an easy way to change html5lib to make it aware of the new concept?
  367. # [12:46] <hsivonen> I find it interesting how out=gnu seems to be getting more attention than the fancy XML and JSON outputs
  368. # [12:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://validator.nu/?doc=http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source&out=gnu&asciiquotes=yes
  369. # [13:09] <annevk> I'm getting somewhere...
  370. # [13:09] * annevk makes more tests
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  374. # [13:54] <Philip`> annevk: "unpexted-hidden-input-in-table" - s/pex/expec/
  375. # [13:55] <Philip`> Hmm, I added some new error strings in the html5lib tokeniser a short while ago, but didn't add a descriptive English version - should I have?
  376. # [13:55] <Philip`> (in r1104)
  377. # [13:56] <Philip`> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/html5lib/changeset/1104 - ooh, Trac still works)
  378. # [14:00] <annevk> dunno, don't really care about it too much
  379. # [14:06] <annevk> it doesn't have my changes
  380. # [14:06] <annevk> local checkout or something?
  381. # [14:07] <Philip`> It only updates every six hours or so
  382. # [14:07] <annevk> k
  383. # [14:07] <Philip`> (since Trac requires a local repository, so I have to sync from the remote one)
  384. # [14:16] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html
  385. # [14:16] * Philip` wonders if he's missing something useful on there
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  387. # [14:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm surprised at how many pages claim to use MacRoman one way or another
  388. # [14:22] <annevk> the <meta content=" ... charset .." > case that doesn't have http-equiv
  389. # [14:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: it would be interesting to check if invalid gb2312 would be valid and sane if decoded as gb18030
  390. # [14:28] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  391. # [14:28] <Philip`> annevk: The thing I called "http-equiv" is misleading because actually it entirely ignores the http-equiv value
  392. # [14:29] <Philip`> (It just looks at 'content', like the spec says)
  393. # [14:32] <Philip`> But I'll add a list of the actual http-equiv values that were seen
  394. # [14:38] <Philip`> Quite a lot of people put <meta> charset declarations inside <style> contents
  395. # [14:40] <annevk> <select>xxx why does "xxx" end up in the DOM per HTML5?
  396. # [14:41] <annevk> oh, IE does that
  397. # [14:42] <annevk> ok
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  399. # [14:49] <Philip`> <meta http-equiv="Содержимое-Тип" content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
  400. # [14:51] <annevk> in select in table is now supported
  401. # [14:59] <takkaria> heh, http://www.glassdoctors.co.uk/chipsandmot.html begins with </html>
  402. # [15:04] * Philip` gives up trying to use Unicode ids and #id links, and replaces everything with ASCII
  403. # [15:11] <annevk> ok, after after phases are just a more verbose trailing phase
  404. # [15:12] <annevk> hsivonen, not many tests were affected... i added tests7.dat though which has a bunch of new tests
  405. # [15:18] <Philip`> Of 760 declared gb2312 pages, 120 have errors decoding as gb2312, 8 have errors as gbk, 8 have errors as gb18030
  406. # [15:26] <annevk> and gb2313 < gbk < gb18030 is the order?
  407. # [15:29] <Philip`> Yes
  408. # [15:33] <Philip`> (I don't know how many of these errors are caused by e.g. actually using utf-8 instead of gb*, where it happens to be a subset of gbk and not of gb2312)
  409. # [15:33] <Philip`> (*a subset of the byte sequences allowed by)
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  414. # [15:47] <annevk> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm
  415. # [15:48] <annevk> "Six connections per host instead of two for broadband scenarios and a scriptable property allow for more improved performance by allowing parallelization of downloads in Internet Explorer 8."
  416. # [15:49] <annevk> "XMLHTTPRequest Enhancements include a timeout property that can be set to cancel the request if necessary, allowing developers to manage the request better."
  417. # [15:49] <annevk> it's good to know MS is still taking the W3C serious...
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  419. # [16:06] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. thanks
  420. # [16:06] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  421. # [16:07] <annevk> hsivonen, please make more tests as you introduce changes, that will give us more coverage
  422. # [16:09] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  423. # [16:09] <annevk> IE also has their own cross-site XHR
  424. # [16:09] <annevk> "XDomainRequest"
  425. # [16:10] <annevk> No idea if cross-document messaging matches HTML5 or not. I guess it matches given MS their editorial comments
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  428. # [16:27] <takkaria> nice, they even use hatom without actually using hatom
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  430. # [16:43] <Philip`> annevk: I can't click the "Install Internet Explorer 8" link on that page in Opera :-(
  431. # [16:43] <annevk> hit the lower end of the p
  432. # [16:43] <annevk> but yeah...
  433. # [16:44] <annevk> works fine in post-9.2
  434. # [16:44] * Philip` likes shift+arrow link navigation
  435. # [16:45] * Philip` guesses IE8 won't work in Wine
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  438. # [16:48] <Philip`> "Web sites that unknowingly access objects after they are freed may find such access failing in Internet Explorer 8" - why would an object be freed if it was still possible to access it?
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  442. # [16:51] <gsnedders> namespaces are interesting
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  444. # [16:52] <gsnedders> looks like they're changing what they already have
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  450. # [17:07] <othermaciej> I'm certainly curious what XHR stuff they have done
  451. # [17:08] <virtuelv> hm, no word on canvas or svg?
  452. # [17:08] <virtuelv> oh, "Internet Explorer 8 offers Web developers the opportunity to write standards-compliant HTML-based Web pages that support features (such as SVG, XUL, and MathML) in namespaces, provided that the client has installed appropriate handlers for those namespaces via binary behaviors. (A binary behavior is a type of ActiveX control.)"
  453. # [17:09] * Philip` wonders how they can do standards compliant namespace handling in HTML
  454. # [17:10] <Philip`> (particularly without breaking the people who depend on IE6's namespace handling)
  455. # [17:10] <Philip`> (unless the plan is to break a lot of people during the beta, so customers will demand that IE8 goes back to rendering in IE7 bug mode by default, so Microsoft will have a good reason for choosing to do so)
  456. # [17:12] <annevk> othermaciej, look like an ontimeout attribute that cancels the request after some amount of time and XDomainRequest, whatever that is...
  457. # [17:12] <othermaciej> Philip`: it looks like the only real namespace change is making it simpler to load a "binary behavior"
  458. # [17:12] <othermaciej> (from their description)
  459. # [17:13] <othermaciej> annevk: it would be nice to know how it differs from XXX
  460. # [17:13] <annevk> it seems like something completely new
  461. # [17:13] <annevk> :(
  462. # [17:13] <annevk> like a new type of object, a la JSONRequest
  463. # [17:14] <annevk> but there's not much information
  464. # [17:14] <annevk> i asked the interwebs, but so far there's nothing :)
  465. # [17:15] <virtuelv> I'm wondering why they are specifically mentioning XUL among those ActiveX controls
  466. # [17:16] <annevk> to show that they're trying not to be evil or something? dunno, XUL on the Web would not be good
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  468. # [17:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: namespace change in IE8 standards mode only, I expect. Quirks doesn't change, nor does those who opt-in to IE7 Standards
  469. # [17:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: I expect most of those that rely on the namespace handling are quirks anyway
  470. # [17:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'd expect those that rely on it to be standards, because they're fancy scripts used by people who want to write proper XHTML 1.0
  471. # [17:26] <Philip`> (The namespace syntax itself might be more quirky, but that's not very interesting - it's the scripted interaction with HTML-namespaces that matters)
  472. # [17:26] <gsnedders> why would the scriped based ineraction change?
  473. # [17:28] <Philip`> It's a new browser version which claims to have changes to its namespace support, so I'd assume its namespace support (quite possibly including how it interacts with DOM scripting) has changed
  474. # [17:30] <gsnedders> I was assuming the difference was an HTML serialisation
  475. # [17:30] <annevk> I also thought it was yet another quirk, but simpler, for text/html
  476. # [17:31] <Philip`> Uh, I'm not quite sure what people are saying
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  480. # [17:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: looking at http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/colon-vs-dash/ it seems that ie doesn't differ from the other browsers with the colon when it comes to .getAttribute() and .attributes
  481. # [17:41] <zcorpan> but namespace magic with \: in selectors is probably taking place, even for attribute selectors, which is why it doesn't match
  482. # [17:41] <annevk> I thought the issue was styling and it not being equivalent in HTML and XHTML
  483. # [17:42] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
  484. # [17:42] <annevk> "just say no"
  485. # [17:43] <zcorpan> i'm just making sure we don't use non-issues as arguments :)
  486. # [17:46] <annevk> IE8 adds support for ARIA...
  487. # [17:48] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  488. # [17:49] <annevk> also, IE fixed their page zoom: "Primary features in this release include the elimination of horizontal scroll bars for the majority of mainstream scenarios and the introduction of persistent zoom states."
  489. # [17:49] * annevk remember someone praising that.. glazou?
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  491. # [17:50] <Philip`> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2008/02/11/Is-fullZoom-zooming
  492. # [17:51] <Philip`> I guess he'd say Google Maps zooming isn't zooming either, because the map changes (e.g. place names popping up) when you zoom
  493. # [17:52] <Philip`> so I'm not sure it's the most user-friendly definition of zooming
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  518. # [18:26] <zcorpan> i wonder if ie8 fixed the bugs i pointed out in ie7b2
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  524. # [18:50] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I expect it has, and introduced totally new bugs
  525. # [18:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's what beta is for - we can test it, report all the bugs, and they will all be fixed before release
  526. # [18:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: because all bugs get found :P
  527. # [18:53] <Philip`> and fixed
  528. # [18:54] <Philip`> The web is too important to let people get away with releasing software with bugs
  529. # [18:55] <gsnedders> We need Acid4.
  530. # [18:55] <Philip`> What will it test?
  531. # [18:56] <SadEagle> Philip`: so not software should ever be released?
  532. # [18:56] <gsnedders> Everything. It will make sure nothing ever is released with bugs.
  533. # [18:56] <Philip`> http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/iemix08labs works now
  534. # [18:58] <Philip`> xdr = new XDomainRequest();
  535. # [18:58] <Philip`> xdr.onerror = err;
  536. # [18:58] <Philip`> xdr.ontimeout = timeo;
  537. # [18:58] <Philip`> xdr.onprogress = progres;
  538. # [18:58] <Philip`> xdr.onload = loadd;
  539. # [18:58] <Philip`> xdr.timeout = tbTO.value;
  540. # [18:58] <Philip`> xdr.open("get", tbURL.value);
  541. # [18:58] <Philip`> xdr.send();
  542. # [18:59] <Philip`> then the callbacks can read xdr.responseText, xdr.contentType
  543. # [19:00] <Philip`> XMLHttpRequest has xmlHttp.ontimeout=timeoutFired; xmlHttp.timeout = 5000;
  544. # [19:00] <gsnedders> "In this vain, Internet Explorer 8 will ship with an additional layout engine that is fully CSS 2.1 compliant upon final release."
  545. # [19:01] <Philip`> vain?
  546. # [19:02] <gsnedders> following on from other browsers approaching full support
  547. # [19:08] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  548. # [19:10] <Philip`> <activity category="define">
  549. # [19:10] <Philip`> <activityAction context="selection">
  550. # [19:10] <Philip`> <execute action="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/{selection}" method="get"/>
  551. # [19:10] <Philip`> </activityAction>
  552. # [19:11] <Philip`> </activity>
  553. # [19:11] <Philip`> Those braces seem like a familiar idea
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  556. # [19:19] <Philip`> Oh, http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/ie8whitepapers exists too
  557. # [19:21] <Philip`> "Internet Explorer 8 hopes to implement some of the most requested CSS3 features by web developers and designers."
  558. # [19:21] <Philip`> (Apparently currently box-sizing and vertical text)
  559. # [19:22] <annevk> euhm, IE dispatches "hashChanged" while the event is named "hashchanged"
  560. # [19:23] <annevk> also, window.globalStorage["http://www.contoso.com"]
  561. # [19:23] <annevk> also, their API is asynchronous
  562. # [19:23] <annevk> ...
  563. # [19:24] <annevk> and yet they claim standards compliance
  564. # [19:26] <Philip`> Apparently they support
  565. # [19:26] <Philip`> <html>
  566. # [19:26] <Philip`> ...
  567. # [19:26] <Philip`> <svg width="600" height="300" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
  568. # [19:26] <Philip`> <rect x="0" y="0" width="100" height="100" style="fill:url(#gradient)" />
  569. # [19:26] <Philip`> ...
  570. # [19:26] <Philip`> </svg>
  571. # [19:26] * Joins: dveditz (n=dveditz@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  572. # [19:28] <Philip`> Also <li role="treeitem" aria-expanded="false"> and treeitem.ariaExpanded = "false";
  573. # [19:28] <annevk> :(
  574. # [19:30] <annevk> maybe making a checklist for them will help...
  575. # [19:32] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Remote closed the connection)
  576. # [19:33] <Philip`> Maybe making test cases would help too
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  580. # [19:37] <annevk> "When the title is absent, for accessibility Internet Explorer falls back to the alt attribute for a tooltip."
  581. # [19:37] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  582. # [19:38] <Philip`> "Attempting to navigate to a DATA URI via the address bar is not allowed. Data URIs may not be used as a source for FRAME or IFRAME elements. An OBJECT tag is limited to supporting non-navigable file types [i.e. not text/html]."
  583. # [19:40] <met_> annevk, "I was wondering if someone on the interwebs has more information on the various things listed on that page." Di you watched the IE8 streaming several minutes ago?
  584. # [19:40] <annevk> the stuff they released now is what i was looking for
  585. # [19:41] <met_> ok
  586. # [19:41] <met_> download still doesn't work
  587. # [19:42] <met_> some video are archived at http://visitmix.com/Default.aspx
  588. # [19:42] <met_> but not the official introduction yet
  589. # [19:43] <met_> only explanation of Web Slices
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  592. # [19:49] <annevk> document.documentMode
  593. # [19:53] * met_ is download IE8 now
  594. # [19:53] * Hixie_ realises the html5 parser has draconian error handling for one class of errors
  595. # [19:54] <gsnedders> that shouldn't happen.
  596. # [19:54] <Hixie_> actually, i intend to keep it
  597. # [19:54] <Hixie_> the class of errors is "unexpected end of file" :-P
  598. # [19:55] <gsnedders> EOF when?
  599. # [19:55] <gsnedders> met_: download? where?
  600. # [19:55] <jandem> gsnedders: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/Install.htm
  601. # [19:55] <Hixie_> gsnedders: anywhere it's not allowed :-)
  602. # [19:55] <met_> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/Install.htm
  603. # [19:55] <gsnedders> so they work now
  604. # [19:55] <met_> looks like some mirros are syncing
  605. # [19:56] <met_> one minute it works, the second not
  606. # [19:56] * gavin__ is now known as gavin_
  607. # [19:56] * met_ is installing...
  608. # [19:58] <annevk> Hixie_, how is it draconian?
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  611. # [20:03] <Hixie_> annevk: it stops parsing!
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  616. # [20:05] <met_> It has big 'Emulate IE7' button. But you have to restart IE after switching.
  617. # [20:06] <annevk> Hixie_, :p
  618. # [20:07] <itpastorn> Anne, I've written on Wikipedia that you was indeed the first to blog about Acid3. Can you confirm this?
  619. # [20:07] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237)
  620. # [20:07] <annevk> the interwebs is near-infinite, how can I tell?
  621. # [20:08] <met_> Score 17/100 in Acid3 and it doesn't pass Acid2 completelly.
  622. # [20:08] <itpastorn> As far as you know?
  623. # [20:09] <annevk> maybe...
  624. # [20:09] * SadEagle gives kudos to annevk & co for opera passing this incredibly evil testcase
  625. # [20:09] <itpastorn> (There was nothing on Technorati before Jan 10)
  626. # [20:10] <annevk> itpastorn, ok
  627. # [20:11] <itpastorn> Thanks!
  628. # [20:11] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  629. # [20:11] <itpastorn> Right now I am editing the (X)HTML 5 article on the Swedish WP. Anyone on this channel that speaks Swedish is invited to help.
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  632. # [20:23] <Philip`> IE8 takes a long time to install compared to other web browsers
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  634. # [20:28] <annevk> SadEagle, you make me curious :)
  635. # [20:30] <SadEagle> annevk: it's not that big of a deal, on second thought --- only mozilla gets it wrong (sequencing in reference evaluation in JS)
  636. # [20:30] <annevk> k
  637. # [20:31] <annevk> Philip`, it's 3 browsers!
  638. # [20:32] <Philip`> Also it takes an extra two years to finish installing when you reboot
  639. # [20:32] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  640. # [20:35] <annevk> XBL2 in 8k of JS, nice
  641. # [20:36] <othermaciej> annevk: Microsoft has a whitepaper up now, but it doesn't seem to document XDocmainRequest
  642. # [20:36] * Philip` waits while Windows continues rebooting
  643. # [20:37] <Philip`> othermaciej: http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/ie8whitepapers/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=581 seems to document it (to some extent)
  644. # [20:37] <annevk> othermaciej, it seems to be XHR but slightly different
  645. # [20:38] <annevk> it doesn't send cookies/auth data and requires the server to reply with a header that's basically a boolean
  646. # [20:41] <Philip`> Hmm, they do the address bar significant-part-of-domain highlighting thing that FF3 used to do
  647. # [20:42] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  648. # [20:42] <Philip`> Live DOM Viewer looks ugly and says "Line: 127 Error: Not implemented"
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  652. # [20:43] <Philip`> Node.attributes.length is not implemented
  653. # [20:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  654. # [20:52] <Philip`> and .item(n) is not implemented either
  655. # [20:59] <hsivonen> Hixie_: according to a new MS whitepaper, IE8 will do aria-*
  656. # [20:59] <roc> I'm sure Ian's reading those whitepapers right now
  657. # [20:59] <roc> just like we are :-)
  658. # [20:59] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/live-dom-viewer-ie8.html
  659. # [20:59] <Philip`> It still does non-tree DOMs
  660. # [21:05] <Hixie_> actually i'm busy fixing the spec
  661. # [21:05] <Hixie_> hsivonen: sure hope they document how it interacts with html
  662. # [21:05] <hsivonen> Hixie_: yeah.
  663. # [21:06] <hsivonen> Hixie_: what I'm thinking is that with Firefox 3, Opera 9.5 and IE8 on board, having the TAG second-guess the syntax at this point wouldn't make sense
  664. # [21:07] <Hixie_> would there ever be a point where having the TAG second-guess the syntax makes sense?
  665. # [21:07] <hsivonen> well, no, but now it would make even less sense
  666. # [21:08] <Philip`> annevk: It does seem to be 'hashchange' and not 'hashChange', though attachEvent('hash[cC]hange', ...) doesn't work so I can't see how to test it except with onhashchange
  667. # [21:08] <annevk> apparently mousewheel is also dispatched for vertical scrolling, I didn't know
  668. # [21:08] <hsivonen> I want to see documentation explaining how their new namespace stuff integrates with parsing
  669. # [21:08] <Hixie_> hsivonen: less than no sense is still... no sense
  670. # [21:08] <annevk> Philip`, you can check event.type maybe?
  671. # [21:09] <Philip`> annevk: That says "hashchange"
  672. # [21:09] <hsivonen> looks like we will have to follow IE8 on the namespace thing now that HTML5 didn't spec SVG integration before they got on the case
  673. # [21:09] <annevk> Philip`, cool
  674. # [21:10] <hsivonen> does message grouping on validator.nu work in IE8?
  675. # [21:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: re: Charset usage data: my wild guess is that TIS-620 needs to be treated like ISO-8859-11. that is, treat as alias for the windows-* superset
  676. # [21:13] <Philip`> <svg xmlns="..."><circle/>foo in the Live DOM Viewer is parsed into an SVG element with attribute name 'xmlns="..."><circle' and value '...">circle', followed by a CIRCLE element
  677. # [21:13] <Philip`> (It's happier if you use xmlns:something instead)
  678. # [21:14] <Philip`> (but it does the old non-XML IE unknown-element parsing, as far as I can tell)
  679. # [21:16] <Philip`> (It's the same in real pages as well as the Live DOM Viewer)
  680. # [21:18] <Philip`> (As far as I can tell, the namespace support here is exactly the same as in IE6)
  681. # [21:18] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-194-45.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
  682. # [21:19] <Philip`> (except for that xmlns parsing bug)
  683. # [21:19] <annevk> Philip`, Acid3 screenshot?
  684. # [21:19] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-b7e9da815088fbdd)
  685. # [21:20] <Philip`> Do MacBook Pro keyboards have a print-screen key?
  686. # [21:20] <gsnedders> fn+somethig
  687. # [21:21] <roc> their performance improvements are all JS and DOM
  688. # [21:21] <Philip`> That still leaves a hundred possibilities, assuming there aren't any other modifier keys :-p
  689. # [21:21] <roc> oops wrong channel
  690. # [21:24] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  691. # [21:24] * Philip` uses the on-screen keyboard, then finds that Paint.NET has expired
  692. # [21:26] <annevk> someone else told me they got 17
  693. # [21:27] <Philip`> I see 17 too
  694. # [21:27] <Philip`> (eventually)
  695. # [21:27] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-3030.bb.online.no)
  696. # [21:27] <Philip`> and some XML errors before that
  697. # [21:29] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ie8-acid3-partial.png - http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ie8-acid3.png
  698. # [21:30] <Philip`> I think it didn't quite pass
  699. # [21:31] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  700. # [21:38] <Philip`> On the WHATWG HTML5 spec: "Line: 40 Error: Object doesn't support this property or method"
  701. # [21:38] <Philip`> Oh, that's just addEventListener
  702. # [21:38] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-194-45.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
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  704. # [21:39] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-219-050.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  705. # [21:42] <met_> i am not able to pass the http://webkit.org/perf/slickspeed/ every 15 seconds IE8 popup alert wifth Want-to-stop-the-script?
  706. # [21:42] <Philip`> It can sort of load the HTML5 spec, but it freezes for literally 20 seconds to highlight a link when you mouse over it
  707. # [21:42] <Philip`> and 10 seconds when I move the mouse out again
  708. # [21:51] <Philip`> The numbers on http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#serialising go "1.", "1.", "2."
  709. # [21:51] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  710. # [21:51] <Philip`> and the next section goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13
  711. # [21:51] <Hixie_> is that my fault?
  712. # [21:51] <Philip`> I think it's IE8's fault
  713. # [21:52] <Hixie_> how they heck do you get _counting_ wrong
  714. # [21:52] * Quits: jandem (n=jandem@unaffiliated/jandem) (Remote closed the connection)
  715. # [21:53] <Hixie_> ok browsers need to stop asking me if i want to change my default browser
  716. # [21:54] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-3030.bb.online.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  717. # [21:54] * Quits: dveditz2 (n=dveditz@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  718. # [21:58] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  719. # [21:59] <othermaciej> roc: wrong channel or not, I'm curious what exactly their perf improvements are - have you tried any benchmarks?
  720. # [22:00] <roc> totally unscientific, but one of our guys ran sunspider and they're 2x slower than FF3 trunk
  721. # [22:00] <roc> currently
  722. # [22:00] <annevk> from the release notes: "The Internet Explorer 8 AJAX features Cross Document Messaging and DOM Storage are based on the HTML 5.0 specification. The specification is in draft stage and is continually being updated. Therefore, our implementation of the specification may be based on an older version. The Internet Explorer team will look into updating the implementation when possible after Beta 1."
  723. # [22:00] <roc> I presume you know exactly where you are relative to FF3 trunk :-)
  724. # [22:01] <Philip`> The HTML5 spec does not give positive indications of IE8 performance
  725. # [22:01] <hsivonen> annevk: is there any indication where the XDomainRequest stuff came from?
  726. # [22:02] <Philip`> a:after{content:attr(href}} shows the absolute resolved URI instead of the href attribute, in case anyone is trying to collect a list of IE8 bugs
  727. # [22:03] <annevk> hsivonen, no
  728. # [22:04] <annevk> actually, maybe the open ajax alliance
  729. # [22:04] <annevk> but that's just a wild guess
  730. # [22:05] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  731. # [22:06] <Hixie_> oh THAT's why my site slowed down
  732. # [22:06] <Hixie_> acid3 is on slashdot
  733. # [22:08] <gsnedders> /. slow a site down? never!
  734. # [22:10] <Hixie_> the site would be fine if i increased my memory allocation
  735. # [22:10] <Hixie_> and the site is responding fine
  736. # [22:11] * gsnedders pastes the entire HTML 5 spec into jgraham's outline tester
  737. # [22:11] <itpastorn> And once again the talk on /. is full of insighful remarks... NOT!
  738. # [22:11] <gsnedders> itpastorn: +1 informative
  739. # [22:12] <othermaciej> roc: I was wondering how they do compared to themselves, but 2x slower than FF3 trunk would have to be considerably faster than they used to be
  740. # [22:12] <roc> yeah
  741. # [22:12] <gsnedders> what is FF3 compared with FF2 anyway?
  742. # [22:12] <roc> if you read the whitepaper, they talk about string and array improvements in particular
  743. # [22:13] <roc> gsnedders: "a lot faster"
  744. # [22:13] <gsnedders> roc: I'm well aware :)
  745. # [22:13] <othermaciej> ~2x I think
  746. # [22:14] <gsnedders> so IE8b1 is approx FF2? that's even further than I thought
  747. # [22:14] <met_> Philip`, did you see acid2 correctly or not?
  748. # [22:14] <roc> I suggest you benchmark it yourself :-)
  749. # [22:14] <met_> this guy see it correcly http://www.arcanology.com/2008/03/05/ie8-beta-1-is-released/ but not me
  750. # [22:14] <gsnedders> nor me
  751. # [22:15] <met_> I see texarea in the right eye
  752. # [22:15] <hsivonen> itpastorn: re: (X)HTML 5 Swedish wikipedia page: the history part focuses on contrasting HTML5 with XHTML2. It would be good to mention the Opera/Mozilla position paper from The Workshop.
  753. # [22:15] <gsnedders> met_: ditto
  754. # [22:16] <gsnedders> met_: what OS? I was trying on Vista
  755. # [22:16] <met_> Win XP
  756. # [22:17] <annevk> itpastorn, Selectors API did not come from HTML5
  757. # [22:17] <annevk> itpastorn, and if "Utvidgningar" means extensions, those did not come from HTML5 / Web Forms 2 either
  758. # [22:18] <annevk> re: talk page
  759. # [22:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: There's little point in doing that; I haven't fixed the bugs that stop it working yet :)
  760. # [22:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: and it crashes Saf :)
  761. # [22:19] <annevk> ouch, you need one account per language, that sucks
  762. # [22:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: Really? Cool
  763. # [22:19] <hsivonen> annevk: indeed.
  764. # [22:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: well, not crash. just pasting is slow in Safari.
  765. # [22:20] * hsivonen so far has accounts for en, fi, fr, sv and de
  766. # [22:20] <Philip`> met_: I didn't see Acid2, and I can't now because all the sites are dead
  767. # [22:20] * jgraham finishes reading scrollback and goes bug hunting
  768. # [22:20] <annevk> i have two on en by accident
  769. # [22:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: well, not noticeably slow normally, but when pasting something of the size of HTML 5…
  770. # [22:20] <met_> yes both
  771. # [22:20] <met_> looks like whole world is acid-testing now 8-)
  772. # [22:21] <Philip`> and Google Cache is not the best place for running such tests
  773. # [22:21] <Philip`> Does anybody have a mirror? :-)
  774. # [22:21] <annevk> heh, the whole Hixie_ server is down
  775. # [22:21] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237)
  776. # [22:22] <takkaria> gsnedders: re: benchmarks, sunspider took ff2 ~30s, it takes ff3 ~8s
  777. # [22:22] <takkaria> gsnedders: http://ajaxian.com/archives/firefox-3-performance-numbers
  778. # [22:24] <gsnedders> takkaria: thx
  779. # [22:24] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  780. # [22:24] <itpastorn> Anne: You are a brave soull, trying to read Swedish (multipart)
  781. # [22:25] <itpastorn> Utvidgningar means additions. But "beslktad" means realted. So it is not *from* HTML 5, but related to it.
  782. # [22:25] <annevk> http://code.google.com/p/xbl/wiki/Features
  783. # [22:25] <Philip`> met_: I see the textarea, and the left eye is orange and has a red line underneath it
  784. # [22:25] <met_> yeh
  785. # [22:26] <Philip`> (when I strip the header junk out of the Google cache copy, which is hopefully about correct)
  786. # [22:26] <met_> strange this guy has it correct http://www.arcanology.com/2008/03/05/ie8-beta-1-is-released/
  787. # [22:26] * Joins: weinig__ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  788. # [22:26] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  789. # [22:26] <Philip`> (running on Vista)
  790. # [22:26] <met_> (WinXP)
  791. # [22:26] <Philip`> Um, I can't scroll up or down the page
  792. # [22:26] <Philip`> Is that a(nother) bug?
  793. # [22:28] * Joins: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  794. # [22:29] <Philip`> Ah, yes, overflow:hidden disables scrolling
  795. # [22:29] <Philip`> (or at least scrolling via user interaction)
  796. # [22:29] <itpastorn> annevk: "related" in spirit, more than formally (It's a to do list for more articles rather than the article at hand. I needed to dump it quickly somewhere...)
  797. # [22:30] <annevk> k
  798. # [22:31] <annevk> most of the CSS features came in existence because of XForms intitially
  799. # [22:32] <takkaria> I take it people have seen http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/css3tests/selectorTest.html?
  800. # [22:32] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-95f262154b5e2a15)
  801. # [22:32] * Joins: marcos (n=chatzill@124-171-128-9.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  802. # [22:33] * marcos is now known as marcosc
  803. # [22:33] <Philip`> IE8 seems to render its standards mode like other browsers' standards mode, not like almost standards
  804. # [22:33] <itpastorn> updated the talk page...
  805. # [22:33] <itpastorn> Added this conversation as reference ;-)
  806. # [22:34] <Philip`> (and it doesn't have an almost standards mode of its own)
  807. # [22:37] <virtuelv> acid2 fails from acidtests.org, according to a cow-orker
  808. # [22:37] <SadEagle> probably due to the load
  809. # [22:39] <virtuelv> and passes on webstandards.org
  810. # [22:39] <virtuelv> I meant to write "acid2 in IE8"
  811. # [22:39] <hasather> virtuelv: the eyes were slow loading
  812. # [22:39] * Parts: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  813. # [22:41] <annevk> http://realtech.burningbird.net/standards/ie8-first-looks/ is funny
  814. # [22:41] <virtuelv> quoting, "seems the object fallback fails if the 404 page is longer than a certain limit"
  815. # [22:44] <roc> annevk: I don't get that XBL2-in-JS page. How can it make the nodes anonymous?
  816. # [22:44] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237) (Connection timed out)
  817. # [22:44] <met_> in commnents people also complain about noncompleted acid2 http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/05/internet-explorer-8-beta-1-for-developers-now-available.aspx
  818. # [22:44] <annevk> roc, i suppose it doesn't, unless it provides a wrapper for the actual DOM or so
  819. # [22:45] <roc> ok, so it's just a kind of preprocessor with XBL2 syntax
  820. # [22:45] <roc> that's useful
  821. # [22:45] <roc> but maybe the advertising is misleading :-)
  822. # [22:46] <gsnedders> "The test doesn't work from the other domains you listed because the call for the eyes is cross domain; IE8 currently doesn't trust that cross domain call. We're working through whether we can change that for beta 2 safely."
  823. # [22:48] <met_> some complaint how thay changed microformat hAtom http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/
  824. # [22:49] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237)
  825. # [22:50] <gsnedders> met_: Tony has just said they'll post about that later
  826. # [22:51] <met_> looks there is some problem with opacity e.g. http://www.debian-linux.cz/ in IE7 mode has opaque articles, but not in IE8 mode
  827. # [22:55] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
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  830. # [22:58] <roc> apparently opacity is just broken in the new engine. Sounds like they rushed things out for MIX
  831. # [23:01] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ie8/ is what I've stumbled upon so far
  832. # [23:02] <Philip`> Did they mix up "beta" with "untested build we copied off some developer's machine last night"?
  833. # [23:03] <met_> They cannot show Acid2 demo in MIX08 http://twitter.com/mollydotcom/statuses/767242657
  834. # [23:03] <annevk> thanks to /. lol
  835. # [23:05] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  836. # [23:07] * jgraham discovers that his computer gets unhappy when FF is using all the available memory
  837. # [23:08] <roc> I hope you're using FF3beta at least
  838. # [23:10] <jgraham> roc: Yeah it's the latest nightly. If I was guessing I'd say it was a problem with firebug anyway...
  839. # [23:11] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  840. # [23:13] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.237) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  843. # [23:25] <annevk> "Text nodes that have siblings appear as separate nodes in the HTML tree. If the text node is empty, an empty node will appear in the HTML tree."
  844. # [23:25] <annevk> -- http://support.microsoft.com/kb/949787
  845. # [23:26] <annevk> (some weird stuff listed there that i don't really get)
  846. # [23:29] <roc> "Internet Explorer 8 Beta 1 crashes when you access the following Adobe AIR Download Center Web site:"
  847. # [23:29] <roc> I get that!
  848. # [23:29] <roc> boy, they still have a lot of work to do for IE Standards Mode
  849. # [23:30] <roc> accessibility
  850. # [23:30] <roc> printing
  851. # [23:31] <gsnedders> how much needs to be done for printing? I didn't see much wrong
  852. # [23:32] <roc> apparently it uses IE7 mode for printing
  853. # [23:32] <othermaciej> annevk: empty text node?
  854. # [23:33] <othermaciej> are they using that as a funny way to say "all whitespace"?
  855. # [23:34] <annevk> i was thinking the same, but i don't know
  856. # [23:36] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@c-71-58-68-65.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  857. # [23:39] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ie8/5.html
  858. # [23:39] <Philip`> IE8 says: 1, 2, 4
  859. # [23:42] <Philip`> If I add more content inside the <object>, it says 4, 5, 6
  860. # [23:43] <Philip`> Bugs are fun, particularly when they're not your own
  861. # [23:44] <met_> http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html works again
  862. # [23:44] <met_> and the Acid2 there too
  863. # [23:44] <met_> looks like there is difference between http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html and acid2.acidtest.org
  864. # [23:45] <Philip`> The eye lines fail on both those versions
  865. # [23:47] <annevk> as gsnedders quoted above there's something about a cross-site request
  866. # [23:48] <met_> oh looks like it, there is difference in the line
  867. # [23:48] <met_> line 132
  868. # [23:48] <met_> <div class="eyes"><div id="eyes-a"><object data="data:application/x-unknown,ERROR"><object data="http://www.webstandards.org/404/" type="text/html"><object data="data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAGAAAAAYCAYAAAFy7sgCAAAGsUlEQVRo3u2ZbWwcZxHHf3s%2B7LNbO3ZjXBtowprGODRX0qpNQCjmJKuVKhMl1P2AkCwhFOIKkCBSm9IXavGFKAixIAECwkmWo5MrhRI3Ub40IEwQgp6aIDg3Cd6eEqyIHEteah%2B1E69vhw%2BZtTaX8704ZzkKjHS6271nZ56ZZ%2BY%2F%2F%2BdZKF%2FCwYshx3EkkggLsD1v4FQkEZZYL
  869. # [23:48] <met_> CbAKyG9%2Ba9EIsG6hnUAf8x74K3aUC3j4%2BM54HcsR2oAIomwZOezkv%2FnSHpYNh%2BNCmAE7xv94zvFdd1bHsjMZmQkPSxAJP%2B%2FfuBLwK54PC7JZFKAVJmzXLBt2w%2FMvcDLwIb8QS8CeJ4nkURYIomw7J%2FYJ8BvSiiXptGGxWds2%2Fa9%2Bnaxh%2BYAD%2Bgt04NDgABTpQY2cvvSFLzw86gWeBVwC8SzlOSv2YeBPfmDBoBHgKmR9LBEEmHZfDTqGykqfkUE0nA78BzQGfSgUeP3wNeTXwXg7MwZDhw4UHL6ra2ti79%2FOvljgG8AZ4H64Lhm4MvAocxsRppGG%2FxcXihlwLIs6R%2FfKV2HO%2F26uA94pdDYUKUZUU7W1RQYXA98Gnhaf5%2FXWX0HeAHYoQonqa4sZSOsSWMCWeC9Yko%2BCQwBe
  870. # [23:48] <met_> 4E6oNc0Tc91XTl1%2BaTsn9gnI%2Blhyc5nZWxsrBIkKSbl2tiic3tW53YDEwOKaoFBrcOfqKee53lG9xsPMjV784r%2F4lO%2FpPvyJ9iyZcuvFSaXK5XYeAZ4CDgGvB3MS4B54LQuWYPeuy4iRFsevsXqpuYoqVQKIH2bK1CuDQNo11o4XUzh%2FcDWYIe1LEtyuZx4niee54njOGKapgfsqlL%2Bl2OjEXg8nxrc1dJ0h3hbtL%2BGCtz7KPBF4CuBe9uB15VafE8hr9qylI3HgG8C2%2FK7VyHZoJj7MrBRm30qFotJMpkU27YlHo%2F7Ha5a%2BV%2FKRkSJ4KuKRLVLKapTjB1SzAVIjY2NSXY%2BKyPpYdk%2FsU9OXT4pruv6BdZbBQfKsVGnvWlIe1VB6VQO8JxC1vZYLCbZ%2BaxsPhpdZDyRRFhG0sPiOE6ld
  871. # [23:48] <met_> KBg2lRg4xF1YCDIIIKN7DGgD3gH%2BBXwejKZfPrs2tPs%2FvPN2bKuYR1nd7xLKBSSJeqoXKnERjPwNWAG%2BLn2rZuM%2B4Tpml6vaWlp4eLcxVusZq5lCgVgOVKJjRqdX86ffL4D5wIoZACnTpw4wRMdT96i%2FImOJxERAs4uVyqxUacF%2FPdiCj%2BjdRBRGFtwXVdG0sPSdbhTmkYbpH98p2RmM2JZlig1vl0GWo4NQ%2Fn%2Bs5pKRXfwjweaxy7TND3HcRZbfC6X8xVPVQlGy7WxVWlO5XRXFXm6EZmrQuSXYyPE3SiVoEhE6Wyr0u2rumO6zv%2B21AFdQAswC1wCMuUCXCmyWQus103Qg8qlDO0lxwOb%2Fl4FiK3AB3VS%2FuKKLtK%2FgbeAnwG%2FvUODuRw%2FFrR0H1UC75fwu8oJ%2FhFsW5VIG%2FB
  872. # [23:48] <met_> UgEIN6Y65O4AHu4Ap0zQ9y7LEcZyb9lRBUHQcRyzL8unZVBW5bFWAvAp%2BhDQ2g4F47dUYtlU6obXA54DnVdFLekjUGGifh4AFy7LEdV3xj3X9I66m0QZpGm2QrsOd0j%2B%2BU0bSw5KZzYjrun6HWlAd961i4FfCj0aN1Usau%2Bc1lmuXPFwvAEumUut7tQQvAb%2FXb%2FT0bCAej9cODg7yt%2
  873. # [23:48] <met_> ooops
  874. # [23:49] <met_> and the second <div class="eyes"><div id="eyes-a"><object data="data:application/x-unknown,ERROR"><object data="http://www.damowmow.com/404/" type="text/html">.....
  875. # [23:53] <Philip`> "The Internet Explorer 8 AJAX features Cross Document Messaging and DOM Storage are based on the HTML 5.0 specification. The specification is in draft stage and is continually being updated. Therefore, our implementation of the specification may be based on an older version. The Internet Explorer team will look into updating the implementation when possible after Beta 1."
  876. # [23:54] <annevk> i quoted that earlire
  877. # [23:54] <annevk> earlier*
  878. # [23:54] <met_> good time for DOM storage, changed already
  879. # [23:54] <Philip`> annevk: Oh, I missed that
  880. # [23:54] <Philip`> and was too lazy to check upwards :-p
  881. # [23:55] <annevk> met_, same for postMessage
  882. # [23:55] <met_> 8-)
  883. # [23:55] * annevk wonders if Firefox 3 is going to fix DOM storage in time
  884. # [23:55] <met_> someone is really lucky
  885. # [23:56] <Hixie_> my site should be back up again
  886. # [23:57] <Hixie_> i upgraded the server from like a 500MHz machine to a 2000MHz machine and quadrupled the RAM
  887. # [23:57] <Hixie_> i'll downgrade it again once /. is gone
  888. # [23:57] <Hixie_> interesting that /. is way harder on the site than reddit
  889. # [23:58] * Quits: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  890. # [23:58] <roc> annevk: do you have the bug#?
  891. # [23:58] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  892. # [23:59] <annevk> roc, no
  893. # [23:59] <annevk> i wonder if there's even a definite bug on it
  894. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Hixie_: maybe reddit sux :P
  895. # [23:59] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.111.222)
  896. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Hixie_: /. is older, which probably helps the number of readers
  897. # Session Close: Thu Mar 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)