/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:03] <annevk> jgraham__, looking through your code, does it work with scope=ROW ?
  6. # [00:03] <jgraham__> annevk: No, I noticed that bug when I wrote the email
  7. # [00:03] <jgraham__> I suppose I could check in the fix :)
  8. # [00:03] * gsnedders waves good night
  9. # [00:03] <jgraham__> nn
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  12. # [00:05] <annevk> i see
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  16. # [00:15] <Hixie> annevk: send mail, i'm in meetings a lot right now
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  20. # [00:23] <annevk> done
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  22. # [00:48] <Hixie> thanks
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  26. # [01:09] <takkaria> Hixie: not the dreaded meetings? I hope they're not regular ones
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  40. # [02:16] <tomg> I stupidly wrote an email to whatwg@whatwg.org before I'd confirmed my list membership, will it eventually get approved? :)
  41. # [02:16] <tomg> or be lost forever in a rampant jungle of spam
  42. # [02:17] <Philip`> tomg: Things in the moderation queue never get approved
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  44. # [02:22] <tomg> I shall resend
  45. # [02:22] <tomg> ta
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  69. # [06:22] * Hixie steels himself for a flaming
  70. # [06:24] <hober> oh?
  71. # [06:25] <Hixie> the js list
  72. # [06:27] <hober> ahh. that's in my other emacs. looking...
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  74. # [06:39] <Hixie> hey i hadn't seen this before http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/2000/PX02991.pdf
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  83. # [08:52] <Hixie> http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/010807/PLEX_5735.pdf is interesting too
  84. # [08:55] <Hixie> http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/010807/PLEX_5803.pdf too
  85. # [09:07] <Hixie> http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/010807/PLEX_5906.pdf brings up an interesting point
  86. # [09:08] <Hixie> one way to make the Web platform safer from proprietary embrace-and-extend attempts would be to have a certification mechanism that only certifies web pages that don't use anything proprietary
  87. # [09:08] <Hixie> sort of like the "Valid HTML4" buttons, but not specifically for conformance, but for lack of using anything that isn't part of the core cross-platform Web standards
  88. # [09:09] <Hixie> i just talk to hsivonen about this
  89. # [09:11] <roc_> Myhrvold is smart
  90. # [09:13] <Hixie> Myhrvold?
  91. # [09:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: the billg email about Office HTML export is interesting.
  92. # [09:14] <hsivonen> especially considering the colon legacy today
  93. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: detecting the absence of proprietary stuff programmatically will be a hard game of whack-a-mole
  94. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: first, checking script API exposure statically is hard
  95. # [09:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: second, whitelisting standard stuff is not enough due to things like conditional comments
  96. # [09:16] <Hixie> it would be hard work, yes
  97. # [09:16] <roc_> Myhrvold sorry
  98. # [09:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: proprietary stuff would appear where version n of the checker wouldn't know to look and n+1 would have to blacklist that stuff
  99. # [09:17] <roc_> he's the primary author of PLEX_5803. The first two paragraphs are Gates, the rest is Myhrvold
  100. # [09:17] <Hixie> ah ok
  101. # [09:17] <Hixie> oh the nathan guy
  102. # [09:17] <Hixie> yes
  103. # [09:17] <Hixie> very
  104. # [09:17] <roc_> not long after that memo he got bored with Microsoft and left to do research on dinosaur tails
  105. # [09:18] <Hixie> seems to have respect issues with other employees
  106. # [09:18] <Hixie> but that's another story
  107. # [09:18] <Hixie> heh
  108. # [09:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, it would be difficult. might be an interesting thing to persue nonetheless, i think. :-)
  109. # [09:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: I doubt all schemes where software gives a Web author a badge. Software like Validator.nu works when the author uses it in order to solve his development issues privately.
  110. # [09:21] <hsivonen> but when you start giving out badges, the motivations of the users get distorted badly
  111. # [09:21] <Hixie> the problem this would be solving has, frankly, little to do with the author's own goals
  112. # [09:21] <Hixie> i agree that gaming the system is a tough one, though
  113. # [09:22] <Hixie> as in, a danger to any such scheme
  114. # [09:22] <hsivonen> consider accessibility checking
  115. # [09:22] <Hixie> it would have to be continuously monitored and maintained
  116. # [09:22] <hsivonen> if you really want to make an accessible site, you need to hire people
  117. # [09:22] <Hixie> automated accessibility checking is a non-starter.
  118. # [09:22] <Hixie> it's like usability checking. hell it _is_ usability checking.
  119. # [09:23] <hsivonen> if you want to give the appearance of having done something in the hope that you don't get sued or in the hope of selling stuff to non-disabled buyers, you game an accessibility checker program
  120. # [09:24] <Hixie> yup
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  123. # [09:37] <hsivonen> http://del.icio.us/rogerjohansson/dictatorship
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  125. # [09:40] <roc_> ooh, nice ligatures in the header in Firefox 3!
  126. # [09:42] <hsivonen> http://a.viary.com/tools/ they sure are advancing on a lot of fronts simultaneously. too bad it's flash--not canvas
  127. # [09:44] <jruderman> ligatures on http://blog.fawny.org/2007/12/23/janefonda/ ? yeah, easy to see the difference between firefox trunk and safari 3 there
  128. # [09:44] <jruderman> zapfino i'm guessing (domi seems to be broken)
  129. # [09:47] <Hixie> http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/122106/PLEX0_2272.pdf is funny because they very bluntly put the Web's openness in the "con" category
  130. # [09:53] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  131. # [09:56] <Hixie> http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/122106/PLEX0_2278.pdf documents their intent to embrace-then-extend HTML
  132. # [10:02] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  133. # [10:03] <annevk> it also says to keep Office formats alive and not allow other formats as that might make it easier for people to use other software
  134. # [10:03] <annevk> (other format cited is HTML)
  135. # [10:04] <Hixie> holy shit, http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/122106/PLEX0_2494.pdf suggests putting hte IE code out there to let peopl experiment with it
  136. # [10:04] <annevk> what is this stuff about?
  137. # [10:04] <Hixie> i guess that didn't go down well!
  138. # [10:04] <Hixie> files from Comes v. Microsoft
  139. # [10:06] <annevk> interesting
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  141. # [10:08] <annevk> the embrace and extend HTML thingie also mentions Blackbird as other strategy
  142. # [10:08] <annevk> they're trying that one again now... it's called SilverLight
  143. # [10:08] <hsivonen> what was Blackbird?
  144. # [10:08] <annevk> similar thing to SilverLight as I understand it
  145. # [10:10] <Hixie> blackbird was their msn client, i believe
  146. # [10:10] <Hixie> aol competitor
  147. # [10:10] <Hixie> i may be wrong, the google probably knows
  148. # [10:10] <Hixie> http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/122106/PLEX0_2658.pdf suggests they knew that IE was killing Windows years before they finally pulled the plug
  149. # [10:10] <annevk> wikipedia says: "Online content authoring technology developed alongside MSN 1.0 but cancelled in favor of HTML and ActiveX"
  150. # [10:10] <Hixie> right
  151. # [10:11] <annevk> from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_codenames
  152. # [10:11] <hsivonen> ok
  153. # [10:12] <annevk> "I agree that making sure applicatiosn are primarily on Windows is something we lost ... of"
  154. # [10:13] <annevk> "I rail against the people who want to just give things away like DirectX"
  155. # [10:14] <annevk> "We should have people laughing at the idea of 100% pure Java whether they wnte in JAVA or not"
  156. # [10:14] <annevk> s/wnte/write/
  157. # [10:15] <annevk> (character recognition is not perfect)
  158. # [10:23] <Hixie> IE4 usability study report http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/122106/PLEX0_2701.pdf
  159. # [10:23] <Hixie> interesting to note that they barely changed any of the things that that report lambasts
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  161. # [10:25] <hsivonen> how many times does the U.S. legal process fax or photocopy these docs?
  162. # [10:27] <Hixie> yeah i love how these docs started as digital data and got utterly mangled before turning back into digital data
  163. # [10:28] <Hixie> some of these papers are really amusing given what Microsoft is doing with .NET/Silverlight/WPF
  164. # [10:29] <Hixie> like, it's exactly the same thing, just 12 years later and with a different name
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  166. # [10:31] <annevk> guess they still hae the same strategy
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  170. # [10:52] <roc_> it's not the same thing
  171. # [10:52] <roc_> the funny thing is that Silverlight is Microsoft's best play right now and it's cross platform
  172. # [10:53] <roc_> Jim Allchin must be mad
  173. # [10:53] <annevk> http://simonwillison.net/2008/Mar/11/high/ how does it download scripts in parallel?
  174. # [10:54] <annevk> that shouldn't be possible without <script async>
  175. # [10:54] <roc_> it's not that hard
  176. # [10:54] <roc_> you parse ahead and prefetch things that look like <script> tags
  177. # [10:54] <roc_> we have a bug on it
  178. # [10:55] <Philip`> I guess that'd go wrong when the first script does document.write('<!--')
  179. # [10:55] <Camaban> "The HTTP 1.1 spec recommends that browsers only download two items in parallel per hostname, but the spec was written in 1999. Today?s clients and servers can support more parallel downloads, so IE8 has increased the number of downloads per hostname from 2 to 6."
  180. # [10:55] <annevk> yeah, that'd make parsing non-deterministic
  181. # [10:55] <roc_> no
  182. # [10:55] <roc_> you fetch optimistically
  183. # [10:56] <roc_> you don't actually parse or execute anything until you've finished the earlier script
  184. # [10:56] <annevk> <script src=hideevil.js></script><script src=evil?delete=foo></script>
  185. # [10:56] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  186. # [10:56] <roc_> yeah you could do that
  187. # [10:56] <roc_> feel free :-)
  188. # [10:56] <Philip`> Fortunately <script src> does GET and GET doesn't have side effects
  189. # [10:57] <annevk> hah
  190. # [10:57] <roc_> yeah right
  191. # [10:57] <roc_> BTW Blackbird was back from when MSN was building a "walled garden" like AOL
  192. # [10:58] <roc_> so you'd negotiate with Microsoft to get your Blackbird app installed in the MSN garden
  193. # [10:58] <roc_> I knew a guy at CMU who had a contract with Microsoft to get the Internet Chess Club into MSN
  194. # [10:58] <roc_> then MS saw the writing on the wall, cancelled the entire idea and tore up all the contracts
  195. # [10:59] * Philip` remembers a neat 3D chat client on the old MSN
  196. # [10:59] <Philip`> but I don't remember anything more than its existence :-(
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  198. # [11:01] * hsivonen has never been on AOL or MSN
  199. # [11:01] <hsivonen> or Minitel for that matter
  200. # [11:02] <hsivonen> the Web is larger that any country-focused walled garden
  201. # [11:02] <Philip`> The web was much more boring back then
  202. # [11:07] <Hixie> http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/122106/PLEX0_5879.pdf is interesting, for those who were interested in the office/IE link earlier
  203. # [11:07] <Hixie> roc_: how is it not the same thing?
  204. # [11:08] <Hixie> roc_: silverlight seems almost identical to their reaction to java, as well as their reaction to netscape
  205. # [11:08] <roc_> IE ended up being Windows only
  206. # [11:08] <Hixie> roc_: create a platform, put it on all the other platforms (mac and unix), and then pull the rug out of those when you have enough of the market
  207. # [11:08] <annevk> that stuff is great Hixie
  208. # [11:08] <roc_> IE was never really on Mac and Unix
  209. # [11:08] <Hixie> silverlight will be windows only too
  210. # [11:09] <Hixie> neither is WPF now
  211. # [11:09] <roc_> I'm not a big Silverlight fan, as you may be aware
  212. # [11:10] <Hixie> who is :-)
  213. # [11:10] <Hixie> apart from miguel, i mean
  214. # [11:10] <Camaban> my boss :|
  215. # [11:10] <roc_> but Silverlight looks a lot more cross-platform than IE ever did
  216. # [11:10] <roc_> a big part of the IE story was ActiveX
  217. # [11:10] <annevk> i thought some open source guy ported SilverLight
  218. # [11:11] <annevk> (related to mono maybe?)
  219. # [11:11] <roc_> annevk: are you joking with us?
  220. # [11:11] <annevk> iirc it is sort of cross-platform though
  221. # [11:11] <Hixie> roc_: silverlight is the tiny part of WPF in the same way that HTML was the tiny part of IE
  222. # [11:11] <roc_> I don't think so
  223. # [11:11] <roc_> Silverlight is the small, auto-updating download
  224. # [11:11] <annevk> http://www.mono-project.com/news/archive/2007/May-05.html
  225. # [11:11] <roc_> WPF is huge, requires .NET 3
  226. # [11:12] <roc_> and is slow and bloated according to the MS shippingseven blogger
  227. # [11:12] <Hixie> well i'm not saying their execution is any good
  228. # [11:12] <Hixie> i'm just describing the theory
  229. # [11:12] <roc_> I agree there are multiple ways they could leverage Silverlight in the future
  230. # [11:13] <roc_> but right now it does not protect Windows
  231. # [11:13] <Hixie> silverlight is "WPF/E"
  232. # [11:13] <Hixie> sure
  233. # [11:13] <hsivonen> so is the next step for Adobe to put Flash Player under MPL/GPL/LGPL?
  234. # [11:13] <roc_> silverlight is done by a different team BTW
  235. # [11:13] <Hixie> just like IE doesn't protect windows
  236. # [11:14] <roc_> IE does protect Windows because MS never shipped a compatible IE on Mac
  237. # [11:14] <Hixie> roc_: different team, or different division? because each opera device is done by a different team, for example, doesn't stop them being the same product :-)
  238. # [11:14] <hsivonen> given the Flash legacy out there, I'd like to have Gecko-native Flash support with nice integration with Cairo and the event loop
  239. # [11:14] <Philip`> hsivonen: About the only time I use Flash content is for watching videos, and I guess it's quite unlikely for the video codecs to be released as MPL/GPL/LGPL
  240. # [11:15] <Hixie> roc_: from these papers, it doesn't seem like they considered IE/Mac an incompatible alternative, they always refer to it more as a subset
  241. # [11:15] <roc_> it ended up being an incompatible alternative
  242. # [11:15] <Philip`> (I've heard Moonlight has the same problem with video, and relies on a binary component from Microsoft)
  243. # [11:15] <roc_> one of these memos said "why are we doing IE4 cross platform! stop that!" and they did
  244. # [11:16] <roc_> Philip`: that is true
  245. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: Flash is used awfully lot on sites that try to create a brand image
  246. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's crazy how much it is used on sites of clothing brands
  247. # [11:16] <hsivonen> even though a big use case for the sites of clothing sites is using a store locator when you are on the move
  248. # [11:16] <roc_> Hixie: the environment currently demands that a credible Internet platform be cross-platform
  249. # [11:16] <roc_> but two things have changed since the mid 90s
  250. # [11:17] <roc_> Apple is no longer going down the toilet
  251. # [11:17] <hsivonen> I remember a case when my mother called me from abroad and asked me to act as a voice interface to the Web in order to locate a store
  252. # [11:17] <roc_> and there's a big market of phones that Microsoft doesn't control
  253. # [11:17] <hsivonen> the relevant site used flash in a bad way
  254. # [11:17] <hsivonen> and I had to try three browsers until I was able to extract the information
  255. # [11:18] <Hixie> roc_: like i said, i'm not saying their execution is any good :-)
  256. # [11:18] <Hixie> roc_: it does still seem to me like they're just going through the same motions again though
  257. # [11:19] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-55-144.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  258. # [11:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: anyway, in order to dig into a store locator from a browsing setup that Adobe hasn't taken care of, integrated Open Source Flash would be good even without patented codecs
  259. # [11:20] <roc_> I think the same thinking is going on internally, but conditions are different, and not as favourable to MS
  260. # [11:21] <roc_> I don't see that they will be able to compromise on the cross-platform-ness of Silverlight any time soon
  261. # [11:21] <roc_> and if we and Adobe don't drop the ball, we can keep pushing that out
  262. # [11:22] <roc_> that leaves Windows unprotected indefinitely
  263. # [11:25] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  264. # [11:26] <Hixie> yeah, i agree that it's not a good position for them this time
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  277. # [13:59] <Philip`> It's odd how http://online.wsj.com/public/page/election2008.html sends the request headers back as part of its response
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  283. # [15:09] <hendry> http://test:test@basic.webvm.net/ # this is probably a http issue, but i had this crazy notion earlier that these types or urls were deprecated. I guess i was wrong or?
  284. # [15:13] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@71.9.18.123)
  285. # [15:22] <annevk> they are
  286. # [15:28] <hendry> annevk: is there a reference to that somewhere?
  287. # [15:30] <annevk> RFC3896?
  288. # [15:30] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2006/02/alt#comment-6505
  289. # [15:30] <annevk> about showing alt= in a tooltip ^^
  290. # [15:32] <hendry> RFC3896 = Definitions of Managed Objects for the DS3/E3 Interface Type ?
  291. # [15:34] <annevk> 3986
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  295. # [15:43] <hendry> 3.2.1. User Information # isn't the clearest passage I've ever seen. So hashes or implementations not showing the password are allowed? Bit confused.
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  298. # [15:44] <annevk> 'Use of the format "user:password" in the userinfo field is deprecated.'
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  300. # [15:51] <annevk> roc_, if you still think ClientRect.height/width is a good idea let me know and I'll add them, they probably wouldn't make Opera 9.5 though
  301. # [16:11] <Philip`> Hmm, my regexp-based spec-to-OCaml compiler is not absolutely happy when the spec is all rearranged
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  304. # [16:17] * Philip` wonders why people sound optimistic about XBL2, when it seems like there's approximately no activity in implementing it
  305. # [16:20] <krijnh> http://code.google.com/p/xbl/ no?
  306. # [16:21] <Philip`> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/03/not_a_crossbrow.html says no
  307. # [16:22] <krijnh> Ah, what does he know about it
  308. # [16:22] <krijnh> *runs*
  309. # [16:42] <Philip`> From <meta> parsing: "change the encoding to the encoding encoding" sounds funny
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  319. # [17:28] <hsivonen> Sam is right about the tiredness of the trajectory
  320. # [17:28] <hsivonen> too bad this issue is closely related to a rathole topic
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  323. # [17:39] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11446 looks a bit off
  324. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: isn't that the UTF-8 for U+FFFF?
  325. # [17:40] <gsnedders> yeah, it is. sod.
  326. # [17:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: I mean the bits like "That is: “?>." and "Well, let’s have a completely valid line of PHP: ."
  327. # [17:41] <Philip`> I love blogs that don't have a comment preview and/or don't tell you what the comment syntax is
  328. # [17:41] <gsnedders> ah.
  329. # [17:44] <Philip`> (U+FFFF is %ef%bf%bf in UTF-8, and it's the only UTF-8 sequence I've ever memorised, but I can't see what your question is referring to)
  330. # [17:44] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acbb6.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  331. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: well, if he doesn't even allow trackbacks I'm not particularly fused about clarifying it
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  349. # [19:19] <hsivonen> http://blog.vlad1.com/2008/03/10/silverwhat/
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  355. # [19:36] <hsivonen> did the correctness flag just change to force quirks with true/false flipped or was there something else?
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  360. # [19:59] <Dashiva> hsivonen: say what?
  361. # [20:01] <annevk> hsivonen, it was just a renaming afaict
  362. # [20:02] <annevk> hsivonen, though some small changes have been made to the tokenizer
  363. # [20:04] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-230.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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  365. # [20:05] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. thanks
  366. # [20:05] <hsivonen> Dashiva: the tokenizer changed
  367. # [20:17] <hsivonen> http://annevankesteren.nl/2006/11/dot-mobi#comment-6506
  368. # [20:20] * eseidel is now known as grumpyeric
  369. # [20:23] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  370. # [20:26] <Hixie> man, people start debating solutions really quickly
  371. # [20:26] <Hixie> there's been like one or two e-mails on the problems solved by namespaced content in text/html tops
  372. # [20:27] <Hixie> and ironically, most of those are likely best solved by solutions that nobody has even considered
  373. # [20:27] <Hixie> e.g. using <script> and changing the syntax of SVG so that angle brackets use square brackets instead
  374. # [20:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: I should resist responding better even when questions are directed at me :-(
  375. # [20:29] <Hixie> no, your responses are very useful
  376. # [20:29] <Hixie> as are their own e-mails, by and large
  377. # [20:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: anyway, the thread might get back on track if you responded to Sam's last email in the thread
  378. # [20:29] <Hixie> cool, will see if i can respond when i get to it
  379. # [20:30] <Hixie> (today, i mean)
  380. # [20:30] <hsivonen> cool
  381. # [20:32] <Hixie> not clear how to reply
  382. # [20:34] <hsivonen> aren't there any open technical issues needing answers?
  383. # [20:34] <hsivonen> or research items, rather.
  384. # [20:35] <Hixie> the primary problem i have is that the only use cases i'm aware of are the ones you listed
  385. # [20:35] <Hixie> while i'm sure there must be other use cases, because if those are the only ones, then the solution i come up with is going to look a hell of a lot different than what people are talking about
  386. # [20:36] <hsivonen> that looks like a way to reply :-)
  387. # [20:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: I fail to see how you can get to a hell of a lot different if you take the constraint of being able to paste source created in an SVG editor and the requirement to have the same kind of DOM as in the XHTML+SVG case
  388. # [20:39] <Hixie> well, maybe no that different
  389. # [20:40] <hsivonen> somehow I remember flipping the boolean of the doctype token to the exact opposite once before...
  390. # [20:41] <Hixie> m?
  391. # [20:42] <hsivonen> the boolean value should be the opposite when modeling force quirks compared to modeling correctness
  392. # [20:43] <Hixie> oh, you're using a boolean for that
  393. # [20:43] <hsivonen> perhaps I should just call it dontForceQuirks to avoid breaking the interface
  394. # [20:43] <Hixie> i would have used constants other than "true" and "false" :-)
  395. # [20:45] <Philip`> The tokeniser test JSON files have true/false meaning "don't force quirks"
  396. # [20:45] <Hixie> ah
  397. # [20:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: that probably dates from before the previous flip...
  398. # [20:46] * grumpyeric is now known as eseidel
  399. # [20:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: when you have a flag that has states "on" and "off", implementing it as a boolean is not that far-fetched...
  400. # [20:47] <Hixie> sure :-)
  401. # [20:47] <Hixie> i usually prefer using constants that map to true and false to make it clearer what they mean in argument calls
  402. # [20:47] <Hixie> so instead of foo(true, true, false) you have foo(doThis, doThat, doTheOther)
  403. # [20:48] <Hixie> question about inkscape. Does it always output un-prefixed content?
  404. # [20:48] <Philip`> setDoctypeCorrectness(true) seems clear enough to me
  405. # [20:48] <Philip`> (I tend not to call my functions foo :-p )
  406. # [20:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: leopard broke my inkscape, so I can't test, but IIRC, yes at least for docs started in Inkscape
  407. # [20:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: for SVG elements, that is
  408. # [20:49] <Hixie> k
  409. # [20:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: inkscape's own cruft (that renderers are supposed to ignore) has colons
  410. # [20:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, the documentation about its own cruft on the inkscape wiki is incomplete
  411. # [20:51] <Hixie> shocking
  412. # [20:52] <hsivonen> considering the inkscape cruft and the DOM fragment serialization idea I mentioned, it would be desirable to put sodipodi: and inkscape: stuff in the right namespaces...
  413. # [20:52] <hsivonen> which kinda opens the door for xmlns...
  414. # [20:53] <hsivonen> then there's the embedded RDF stuff...
  415. # [20:53] <Hixie> we can't use xmlns="" itself
  416. # [20:53] <Hixie> so any solution that ends up going towards a geeric solution loses copy/paste.
  417. # [20:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: we could if it happens only in SVG scope
  418. # [20:53] <Hixie> not in any sane way that is compatible with IE
  419. # [20:53] <hsivonen> :-(
  420. # [20:54] <Hixie> btw what is it about this use case that would exclude using MathML and application/xhtml+xml?:
  421. # [20:54] <hsivonen> anyway, when I uttered inkscape, I wasn't thinking about its app-specific cruft
  422. # [20:54] <Hixie> * Publishing the kind of content that is published on
  423. # [20:54] <Hixie> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/ using a
  424. # [20:54] <Hixie> legacy PHP content management system that is not XML-ready.
  425. # [20:54] <hsivonen> the "legacy PHP content management system that is not XML-ready" bit
  426. # [20:55] <Hixie> oh you just mean that you can't be affected by ysod?
  427. # [20:55] <Hixie> ok
  428. # [20:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah
  429. # [20:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: I gather the only way for Jacques Distler's colleagues to publish MathML is by using a system carefully patched by Distler with him on the ysod firefight alert
  430. # [20:57] <Hixie> makes sense
  431. # [20:58] <hsivonen> btw, you might also look into copypasteability from Illustrator
  432. # [20:58] <hsivonen> the illustrator output is evil
  433. # [20:58] <hsivonen> it uses the internal subset to define entities for the namespace URIs
  434. # [20:59] <Hixie> that's fine, i have no reason to believe we ever need to look at namespaces here
  435. # [21:00] <Hixie> does LaTeX have vector graphics
  436. # [21:00] <Hixie> ?
  437. # [21:00] <Hixie> or did you just mean mathematics?
  438. # [21:00] <hsivonen> yes
  439. # [21:00] <Hixie> k
  440. # [21:01] <hsivonen> LaTeX has packages for graph theory and stuff that plots vector graphics
  441. # [21:01] <hsivonen> (plus imported PDF images)
  442. # [21:03] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that sounds incredibly evil
  443. # [21:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: see http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001475.html for example of LaTeX code and what it might look like using Web languages
  444. # [21:07] <Hixie> wow that page has use cases!
  445. # [21:07] * Hixie notes them
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  448. # [21:08] <Hixie> you know, none of the use cases you list in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0039.html give any reason not to just have a <latex> element
  449. # [21:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: I amend the requirements by saying that you should be able to resize the CSS formatter view box without re-executing a LaTeX program
  450. # [21:10] <Hixie> :-)
  451. # [21:10] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-147-236-233.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  452. # [21:10] <Hixie> that seems like an optimisation issue :-)
  453. # [21:10] <DxSadEagle> hsivonen: is one allowed to re-execute metafont? :p
  454. # [21:10] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.201) (Nick collision from services.)
  455. # [21:10] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  456. # [21:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, CSS should be able to tweak the color etc. of math bits from CSS
  457. # [21:11] <hsivonen> DxSadEagle: :-)
  458. # [21:11] <Hixie> oh i agree, i'm just saying that that wasn't on your use cases
  459. # [21:11] <Hixie> and if resizing the CSS allows you to rerun the truetype hinting programs, why can't it also rerun latex?
  460. # [21:12] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU)
  461. # [21:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: even though MathML doesn't integrate with a CSS formatter perfectly, it sure integrates a lot better than LaTeX
  462. # [21:12] <Hixie> indeed
  463. # [21:12] <Philip`> TrueType hinting is designed to execute in real-time, LaTeX isn't
  464. # [21:13] <hsivonen> I think I've written about this on the whatwg list a couple of years ago
  465. # [21:13] <Philip`> and it's cheating to just say that's merely performance
  466. # [21:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: probably
  467. # [21:13] <Hixie> Philip`: i agree
  468. # [21:13] <Hixie> i'm just being a devil's advocate
  469. # [21:13] * hsivonen searches the archives
  470. # [21:13] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  471. # [21:13] <Philip`> because if you don't care about performance you could use a web service API that sends the equation to someone who can write it on a piece of paper and scan it in and send it back
  472. # [21:16] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@rrdhcp72-437.redrover.cornell.edu)
  473. # [21:16] <Philip`> LaTeX is more useful if you're writing a whole document in it, so you can define macros for whatever you're writing about - it'd be much more painful if the LaTeX environment was just a single box on the screen, repeated lots of times
  474. # [21:16] <hsivonen> lists.whatwg.org htdig looks broken
  475. # [21:17] <Hixie> yeah it sucks
  476. # [21:17] <Hixie> there are other sites that let you search the archives
  477. # [21:17] * hsivonen tries google
  478. # [21:17] <Hixie> do a google search for "whatwg archives"
  479. # [21:17] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm not in any way seriously suggesting embedding latex anywhere
  480. # [21:18] <hsivonen> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2005-July/032308.html
  481. # [21:18] <hsivonen> goanet?
  482. # [21:18] <Hixie> i was just illustrating that the use cases as given in that e-mail don't necessarily preclude solutions that are far removed from what people are discussing
  483. # [21:18] <Hixie> o_O
  484. # [21:18] <Hixie> http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
  485. # [21:18] <Hixie> that's what one gets for using shared hosting i suppose
  486. # [21:18] <Hixie> :-)
  487. # [21:19] <Hixie> though why that url ever came to be, i dunno
  488. # [21:19] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/
  489. # [21:19] <Hixie> ah
  490. # [21:19] <Hixie> heh
  491. # [21:21] <hsivonen> hmm. I'm pretty sure I've sent email explaining embedded LaTeX renderer baseline and linebreaking problems, but I can't find it
  492. # [21:24] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.188)
  493. # [21:25] <hsivonen> fwiw, about sending math renderer to an outside service: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000106.html
  494. # [21:26] * Joins: dveditz (n=dveditz@dsl-63-249-104-137.cruzio.com)
  495. # [21:26] <hsivonen> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000632.html is better
  496. # [21:27] <hsivonen> “There’s no way to get the baselines to automatically line up, and there’s no way to automatically leave the correct amount of horizontal space in the text to accommodate the equations.”
  497. # [21:29] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T7a70.t.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  498. # [21:30] <Philip`> Has someone already suggested Wikipedia as an example that has lots of maths, and could benefit from higher-resolution text and more consistent fonts and fewer resource requests etc?
  499. # [21:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: did you mean your mail dated Tue, 30 May 2006 ?
  500. # [21:33] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.101.113) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  501. # [21:33] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  502. # [21:33] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.101.113)
  503. # [21:34] <shepazu> Philip`, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ is also a place that could benefit from inline MathML... have they spoken up on the list?
  504. # [21:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: yt?
  505. # [21:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, sort of
  506. # [21:35] <othermaciej> (in meeting but can reply slightly asynchronously)
  507. # [21:36] <Hixie> k
  508. # [21:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't see mail from 2006-05-30 from me. I do see http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-May/006468.html though
  509. # [21:36] <Hixie> that's the one
  510. # [21:36] <Hixie> i guess timezone issues
  511. # [21:37] <hsivonen> which, surprisingly, doesn't explain well how bad it would be
  512. # [21:41] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  513. # [21:43] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.101.113) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  514. # [21:43] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.101.113)
  515. # [21:43] * Quits: G0k (n=hmason@rrdhcp72-437.redrover.cornell.edu)
  516. # [21:44] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.188)
  517. # [21:44] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.201)
  518. # [21:48] <annevk> i do have some sympathy for allowing RDFa kind of things in HTML
  519. # [21:48] <annevk> it allows communities to do their own stuff with it without having to resort to quirky things (see microformats)
  520. # [21:49] <Dashiva> Outsource the entire mess
  521. # [21:49] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.188)
  522. # [21:50] <Hixie> how is RDFa less quirky than microformats?
  523. # [21:50] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.188) (Client Quit)
  524. # [21:52] <hsivonen> it's funny how that question is bracketed by tantek joining and leaving
  525. # [21:53] <Dashiva> There's a lesson to be learned here, kids.
  526. # [21:54] <annevk> Hixie, something better than RDFa would be cool
  527. # [21:57] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  528. # [22:02] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  529. # [22:04] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.101.113) (Connection timed out)
  530. # [22:08] * Hixie got his mac to just read a lot of the table feedback while he was showering, and noticed for the first time that Alex actually takes a breath when talking.
  531. # [22:08] <Hixie> that's crazy
  532. # [22:08] <Hixie> cool, but crazy
  533. # [22:09] * eseidel suggests Hixie not use his mac in the shower
  534. # [22:10] <Hixie> well it wasn't IN the shower
  535. # [22:11] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  536. # [22:11] * jwalden would rather this not go further
  537. # [22:16] <Dashiva> Macbook Water
  538. # [22:20] <Philip`> I can't imagine what a MacBook Fire would be, but I think I want one
  539. # [22:22] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip25.unival.com) (".")
  540. # [22:23] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip25.unival.com)
  541. # [22:31] <roc> Try building Gecko on a Macbook Pro on your lap
  542. # [22:32] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@99-200-237-33.area2.spcsdns.net)
  543. # [22:32] <Dashiva> Maybe it would just have a million firewire ports
  544. # [22:36] * Joins: tantek__ (n=tantek@70-13-1-19.area2.spcsdns.net)
  545. # [22:37] <othermaciej_> roc: sounds painful
  546. # [22:37] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  547. # [22:38] <roc> instead of -j, 'make' should have an option that caps the maximum temperature
  548. # [22:39] * Philip` uses 'cpufreq-set -g powersave' to keep the temperature (and fan noise) down, which is quite effective
  549. # [22:39] <othermaciej> I would not dare build Gecko on a MacBook Pro
  550. # [22:39] <othermaciej> building WebKit is bad enough
  551. # [22:40] * jgraham__ wonders if he should mention "being able to use existing authoring tools with minimal amounts of effort" as a requirement for maths in text/html
  552. # [22:41] <jgraham__> It may already be covered
  553. # [22:41] <Philip`> jgraham__: What/which existing authoring tools?
  554. # [22:41] <roc> I do all my development on a MacBook Pro, it's actually great if I avoid skin contact
  555. # [22:41] <jgraham__> Philip`: That matters less to me, as long as they exist.
  556. # [22:42] <jgraham__> (in practice I think that requirement means LateX-like syntax or MathML-like syntax)
  557. # [22:42] <roc> and apart from the fact that some combination of gdb, Firefox and sleeping leaks VRAM on 10.4
  558. # [22:42] <Philip`> jgraham__: Microsoft Office / OpenOffice.org equation editors might be significant too
  559. # [22:43] <jgraham__> Philip`: I believe oo.o can output MathML
  560. # [22:43] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@109.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  561. # [22:43] <roc> MathML is the native math format for OpenOffice
  562. # [22:43] <roc> for ODF, I should say
  563. # [22:44] <jgraham__> (in practice LaTeX doesn't need an intermediary but MathML does so my real requirement is "no gratuitous syntax changes from MathML")
  564. # [22:44] * Philip` notes the same issue applies to SVG, because only crazy people write vector graphics by hand and everyone else uses Flash or Illustrator or Inkscape
  565. # [22:45] <hsivonen> roc: does OOo now really read back MathML instead of sticking StarMath somewhere and reading it back instead?
  566. # [22:45] <roc> I actually don't know
  567. # [22:45] <jgraham__> Philip`: This is why I would be against e.g. <script type="svg"> and replacing angular brackets with square brackets, fore example
  568. # [22:46] <roc> but at least the MathML is there, and SVG too. It's great to be able to just pull that out and render it
  569. # [22:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: Sam writes SVG in vim...
  570. # [22:47] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@99-200-237-33.area2.spcsdns.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  571. # [22:47] <jgraham__> hsivonen: Sam is abnormal :)
  572. # [22:47] * Quits: tantek__ (n=tantek@70-13-1-19.area2.spcsdns.net)
  573. # [22:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: He is crazy people ;-)
  574. # [22:48] <Philip`> (Of course I might be generalising a bit...)
  575. # [22:49] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  576. # [22:49] <Philip`> Incidentally, I use SVG export from Graphviz and Gnuplot much more than from direct editing programs
  577. # [22:49] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  578. # [22:50] <roc> Quite a few people are using SVG export from Omnigraffle
  579. # [22:50] <roc> Personally I use OpenOffice Draw
  580. # [22:50] <Philip`> hsivonen: OO.o at least keeps both equation formats when saving, like
  581. # [22:50] <Philip`> <math:math xmlns:math="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML"><math:semantics><math:mrow><math:mrow><math:msup><math:mi>e</math:mi><math:mrow><math:mi>i</math:mi><math:mo math:stretchy="false">π</math:mo>[snip]</math:mrow><math:annotation math:encoding="StarMath 5.0">e^{i %pi}+1=4</math:annotation></math:semantics></math:math>
  582. # [22:50] <hsivonen> last year, I discovered that OmniGraffle Pro SVG export sucked big time
  583. # [22:50] <hsivonen> so I didn't buy pro
  584. # [22:50] <roc> it outputs some gnarly filters that we have to optimize for
  585. # [22:51] <hsivonen> and instead drafted stuff in OmniGraffle, expoted to PNG and redrew over the PNG in inkscape
  586. # [22:52] <Philip`> If I keep both MathML and StarMath, the StarMath takes precedence when loading
  587. # [22:52] <hsivonen> that's dirty if not evil
  588. # [22:52] <roc> if you delete the StarMath, does it load the MathML?
  589. # [22:52] <Philip`> If I delete the StarMath, it loads from the MathML
  590. # [22:52] <roc> ok cool
  591. # [22:52] <Philip`> and says "{e^{i π} + 1} = 4"
  592. # [22:53] <Philip`> which is about reasonable, except it'd be easier to edit if it said %pi
  593. # [22:53] <roc> it'd be more reasonable if the equation was correct :-)
  594. # [22:54] <Philip`> (Incidentally, the content.xml file says <!DOCTYPE math:math PUBLIC "-//OpenOffice.org//DTD Modified W3C MathML 1.01//EN" "math.dtd"> - I don't know how that differs from normal MathML)
  595. # [22:54] <Philip`> roc: Pfah, that's just constant factors
  596. # [22:56] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  597. # [22:58] <jgraham__> Hmm. When I tested OO.o also seemed to have some sort of binary cache for the math object which I had to delete. But I guess I could have been mistaken.
  598. # [22:59] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.201) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  599. # [22:59] <Philip`> jgraham__: When I just save from OpenOffice.org Math (i.e. not part of a bigger document), it only has XML files and a thumbnail.png
  600. # [22:59] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.201)
  601. # [23:00] <jgraham__> Ah, I was saving as part of a bigger document
  602. # [23:00] <Philip`> Yay XML - <config:config-item config:name="PrinterSetup" config:type="base64Binary">VAH+/0dlbmVyaWMgUHJpbnRlcgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAU0dFTlBSVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWAAMAmgAAAAAAAAABAAhSAAAEdAAASm9iRGF0YSAxCnByaW50ZXI9R2VuZXJpYyBQcmludGVyCm9yaWVudGF0aW9uPVBvcnRyYWl0CmNvcGllcz0xCm1hcmdpbmRhanVzdG1lbnQ9MCwwLDAsMApjb2xv
  603. # [23:00] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  604. # [23:03] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com)
  605. # [23:03] <Philip`> When I save from Writer, it has an ObjectReplacments directory containing a binary file for the equation
  606. # [23:03] <Philip`> s//e/
  607. # [23:04] <Philip`> (...in addition to the standard XML version of it)
  608. # [23:04] <jgraham__> Yeah, that's what I saw
  609. # [23:06] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-3b22390c7387d34f) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  610. # [23:06] <annevk> It's pretty hard to come up with use cases for "generic extensibility"
  611. # [23:07] <annevk> * metadata annotations (internal format expressed in HTML)
  612. # [23:07] <annevk> * game objects (cf. voidwars.com)
  613. # [23:08] <annevk> maybe in applications it woud sometimes be easier to mint your own elements too
  614. # [23:08] <Philip`> Come up with use cases for specific extensibility, and show that the generic extensibility solution is the 'best' way to handle those cases
  615. # [23:08] <annevk> I try not to think of solutions, but it's hard
  616. # [23:09] <jgraham__> One example of specific extensibility that could, in principle be interesting is distributed references/citations
  617. # [23:09] <annevk> XBL sort of solves the component story, but does something that's optional makes sense if you bind it to <div class="cart"/>
  618. # [23:09] <annevk> or should it be <cart/>
  619. # [23:10] <annevk> (same goes for <planet/> in voidwars fwiw)
  620. # [23:10] <jgraham__> OTOH I don't know if that would actually happen even if the mechanism to make it happen was there
  621. # [23:11] <jgraham__> I've also heard biologists express an interest in embedding machine-readable data in HTML but I forget the details
  622. # [23:11] <annevk> oh, ChemML
  623. # [23:12] <annevk> i wonder if there's a chance that those vocabularies have been hold back because there hasn't been a good way to implement them on top of browsers so far
  624. # [23:13] <annevk> if you have XBL, SVG, and <canvas> you can probably implement most languages as a simple library
  625. # [23:13] <jgraham__> Oh yeah, the Royal Society for Chemistry were doing something that embedded chemistry-specific data in web pages
  626. # [23:13] <Philip`> annevk: But we don't have XBL :-p
  627. # [23:14] <annevk> agreed that XBL is not really realistic right now, but i want it to be!
  628. # [23:16] <Philip`> If it requires all browsers to implement support for it, it seems unlikely it'll ever be realistic
  629. # [23:16] <annevk> why's that?
  630. # [23:16] <Philip`> Because browsers tend to not implement features
  631. # [23:17] <roc> we *want* to implement XBL2
  632. # [23:17] <Philip`> and nobody would use it until it works adequately in IE
  633. # [23:18] * Philip` wants to do lots of things that he'll probably never get around to doing :-(
  634. # [23:24] <othermaciej> all major browsers seem to be on a decent clip of adding features right now
  635. # [23:25] <Philip`> Are any of those features anywhere near as complex as XBL2?
  636. # [23:26] <Philip`> (particularly in terms of interactions with existing code, which presumably makes things much harder)
  637. # [23:26] <othermaciej> SVG is way more complex than XBL2
  638. # [23:29] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acbb6.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  639. # [23:29] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/January-February_2008_Newsletter#head-f76a3e869082c8af2d5c659357614b51f5756ca9
  640. # [23:30] <Philip`> Browser developers having been working on SVG for several years, and they're still all a bit rubbish at it
  641. # [23:31] <roc> othermaciej: that's arguable
  642. # [23:31] <roc> XBL2 is kind of invasive, it requires changes to a lot of core stuff
  643. # [23:31] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-232-12-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  644. # [23:31] <annevk> hsivonen, wow
  645. # [23:32] <roc> SVG is more modular, especially if you don't care about foreignObject really working
  646. # [23:32] <Philip`> (I gave up the last time I tried to do some dynamic SVG stuff, and switched to OpenGL, because things kept crashing or failing to redraw or silently failing in Opera and Firefox)
  647. # [23:32] <othermaciej> SVG wins by far on sheer size though
  648. # [23:32] <annevk> hsivonen, guess they redefined the meaning of "Forms TF"
  649. # [23:32] <othermaciej> and it does have some interaction complexities
  650. # [23:32] <annevk> SVG has <svg:use>
  651. # [23:32] <annevk> that's some simple XBL right there
  652. # [23:32] <annevk> in SVG :)
  653. # [23:32] <roc> I can tell you which of XBL1 and SVG causes *us* more maintenance headaches :-)
  654. # [23:32] <othermaciej> annevk: looks like clever shifting of what "we" refers to
  655. # [23:33] <othermaciej> <svg:use> is a giant crock of shit
  656. # [23:33] <roc> oh yes
  657. # [23:33] <othermaciej> it's so poorly designed compared to XBL, it's not even funny
  658. # [23:34] * Philip` wonders what's wrong with it
  659. # [23:34] <roc> that's because we learned from all the mistakes in XBL1
  660. # [23:34] <othermaciej> use has multiple references to a single underlying element
  661. # [23:34] <othermaciej> and at the point of use, you get things that aren't real Elements at all
  662. # [23:35] <roc> and style is supposed to cascade through each use point, somehow
  663. # [23:35] <annevk> true, XBL has had the unique opportunity to be redesigned from "scratch" without the usual Web compat issues
  664. # [23:35] <othermaciej> if you <use> a plugin multiple times for instance
  665. # [23:35] <othermaciej> each instance has to draw and process mouse events but they must all be in sync
  666. # [23:35] <othermaciej> in theory
  667. # [23:36] <annevk> roc, XBL2 has that feature as well (allowing selectors through and things like that)
  668. # [23:36] <othermaciej> I doubt anyone will ever bother to make that really work
  669. # [23:36] <roc> annevk: at least you don't have to have a variable number of computed styles applying to *the same element*
  670. # [23:36] <othermaciej> annevk: XBL2 multiply instantiates the shadow elements, rather than having the fake SVGElementInstance thing
  671. # [23:37] <roc> we actually clone anonymous nodes for <use>
  672. # [23:37] <annevk> ah ok, though updates to the binding have to be reflected everywhere it's bound
  673. # [23:46] <Philip`> Would browser developers willingly implement something as complex as SVG, now that they have some experience of the complexity that's involved?
  674. # [23:47] <annevk> it would've been useful if someone was there back in the days to decrease the feature creep
  675. # [23:49] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  676. # [23:56] <annevk> Philip`, http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11453 :p
  677. # [23:57] * Philip` will have to start charging people for his services as an ill-formedness consultant
  678. # [23:57] <annevk> what a lame excuse from the other guy btw
  679. # [23:58] * eseidel wonders how many people hacked on xbl
  680. # [23:59] <Philip`> annevk: "the other guy" = Aristotle?
  681. # Session Close: Wed Mar 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)