/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 17 00:00:01 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [18:07] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  5. # [18:07] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  6. # [18:07] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  7. # [18:08] <annevk> i see they're still busy trying to understand Web architecture
  8. # [18:08] <annevk> ;)
  9. # [18:09] <Dashiva> Let's try not antagonizing more people than we have to :)
  10. # [18:11] <annevk> Apparently they also didn't understand that IE has had namespace in text/html support for ages
  11. # [18:13] <zcorpan> annevk: i think that was known by everyone present... what makes it apparent that it wasn't?
  12. # [18:14] <annevk> That this whole debate is triggered by some release notes of the IE8 beta
  13. # [18:15] <zcorpan> yeah, i don't understand what ie8's namespace changes have got to do with this or why it was discussed in the telecon
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  17. # [18:25] <KevinMarks> morning
  18. # [18:26] <KevinMarks> we need to help encourage Joel to use his rhetorical skills to promote the HTML5 solution: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html
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  20. # [18:27] * annevk was just reading that
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  23. # [18:30] <KevinMarks> he explains the problem well, but clearly doesn't know about the "deterministic algorithm for graceful (non-draconian) error handling" idea
  24. # [18:31] <Philip`> The existence of such a deterministic algorithm is no guarantee that web browsers are actually going to implement it
  25. # [18:32] <Philip`> (As far as I'm aware, no browser developer has indicated that they want to rewrite their HTML parser - they'll just keep patching holes until nobody important is complaining about it)
  26. # [18:32] <KevinMarks> agreed, but if it is based on their common behaviour then there is a better chance of convergence
  27. # [18:33] <annevk> we'll just test it extensivily in Acid5 and they will be forced to implement it :)
  28. # [18:34] <Philip`> The browser developers will gang together and produce an Acid6 which is trivial to pass and they'll post it to lots of news sites and say "we already pass Acid6, who cares about Acid5"
  29. # [18:35] <annevk> that seems very unlikely
  30. # [18:36] <Philip`> Or everyone will get fed up with Acid tests because there's been lots already and browsers are still rubbish and buggy so the tests are just a waste of time
  31. # [18:36] <annevk> that also seems unlikely
  32. # [18:36] <annevk> we like tests :)
  33. # [18:37] <KevinMarks> markp's comments on how RSS/Atom was converged are interesting: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/15/dead-fish
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  35. # [18:43] <Philip`> It's not generally true to say that pages not working in IE8b1 are due to compatibility issues - they're often not working just because IE8b1 is buggy
  36. # [18:46] <Philip`> (e.g. failing to count up to 3 is a bug, not a standards-compliance or IE7-compatibility issue)
  37. # [18:51] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-4ce565f4a8580902) ("The computer fell asleep")
  38. # [18:58] <gsnedders> And that's the exact reason why I see no point in hacking for IE8b1
  39. # [19:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: How dare they produce Acid6!? 5 > *.
  40. # [19:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: Maybe it'd be 5.5
  41. # [19:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: 5.5 < 5.
  42. # [19:01] <annevk> if it comes from browsers it'd be 5.2
  43. # [19:01] <gsnedders> still < 5 :(
  44. # [19:02] <Philip`> Is 5 > ∞?
  45. # [19:02] <Philip`> (It would make more sense for them to be incomparable, since there's no reason for a total order)
  46. # [19:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: yes
  47. # [19:02] <annevk> gsnedders, that comparison is in integer values and 5.2 casted to an integer would give the right result
  48. # [19:03] <gsnedders> annevk: well, in C (int) 5.99 == 5 :P
  49. # [19:03] <Philip`> This would kind of disrupt most of the properties of arithmetic that make it sane
  50. # [19:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"
  51. # [19:03] <Philip`> particularly since you're saying 5 > 5 too
  52. # [19:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: that's the only bit that I've yet to get my head round
  53. # [19:04] <Philip`> Logic and sanity are orthogonal concepts :-)
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  56. # [19:07] <Philip`> You can work perfectly logically in a system where your ordering relation is > ⊆ {(5, n) | n ∈ S} for whatever the appropriate S is, but it wouldn't be a particularly sane system
  57. # [19:08] <gsnedders> true
  58. # [19:09] <Philip`> By the way, my font here lacks sufficient glyphs :-(
  59. # [19:09] <gsnedders> heh.sux.
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  63. # [19:35] <virtuelv> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html
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  75. # [20:22] <tomg> heh
  76. # [20:22] <tomg> good post
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  80. # [20:32] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0030.html
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  129. # [23:08] <itpastorn> Hi, does anyone know if IE 8 supports "grey" spelled with an e?
  130. # [23:09] <Hixie> if you have access to IE8 it should be easy enough to test :-)
  131. # [23:09] <itpastorn> I don't
  132. # [23:10] <Philip`> itpastorn: Supports in what context?
  133. # [23:10] <Philip`> (CSS?)
  134. # [23:10] <itpastorn> css color background-color border
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  136. # [23:13] <Philip`> itpastorn: It does support "grey" in CSS
  137. # [23:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: "XHTML 1.1 documents SHOULD be labeled with the Internet Media Type text/html" -- http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/conformance.html#strict
  138. # [23:13] <itpastorn> Jay, thanks!
  139. # [23:13] <Philip`> (regardless of any x-ua-compatible or quirks mode etc)
  140. # [23:14] <itpastorn> Even in IE7 mode, actually interesting!
  141. # [23:14] <Philip`> (I haven't tried the "Emulate IE7" mode, so I don't know if that's different)
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  143. # [23:15] <Philip`> (and, so far as I can tell, simply clicking the button then closing all IE windows doesn't make it go into IE7-emulation mode)
  144. # [23:16] <Philip`> (and I'm not going to bother restarting Windows for this :-p )
  145. # [23:16] <itpastorn> Ok, I have got all info I need at the moment
  146. # [23:16] <itpastorn> Thanks
  147. # [23:19] <Philip`> Hmm, IE8 also supports <body bgcolor=grey>, whereas IE6 treats that as green (#00e000)
  148. # [23:21] <Philip`> http://www.bebt.com/
  149. # [23:22] <Philip`> The box at the top is a nice green in IE6, but ugly grey in IE8 and other browsers :-(
  150. # [23:24] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2008Mar/0036.html ...
  151. # [23:24] <annevk> i hope that's not their explanation for why they completely dismissed Access Control
  152. # [23:24] <Philip`> Who needs Content-Type anyway?
  153. # [23:25] <jwalden> scream
  154. # [23:25] <Philip`> They might as well send requests without that header at all
  155. # [23:25] <annevk> Content-Type is a distraction
  156. # [23:25] <annevk> it's that they completely disregard better solutions without justification
  157. # [23:26] <annevk> and come up with something proprietary instead and try to push that through the WG...
  158. # [23:26] <annevk> after over a year of work on Access Control with near zero involvement of Microsoft
  159. # [23:29] <Philip`> (Woah, IE6 in Wine actually plays background music on web pages - that's quite impressive and very irritating)
  160. # [23:30] <jwalden> I read "Microsoft would like to submit XDR to the W3C for standardization so that other browsers can benefit from this technology." and think, how magnanimous of them to submit another proposal to do something already being addressed elsewhere :-\
  161. # [23:30] <Philip`> It sounds like they want to freeze their current XMLHttpRequest implementation and not make any non-trivial changes to it
  162. # [23:31] <Hixie> is |foo in bar| ES3 syntax?
  163. # [23:31] <annevk> for(x in y) is
  164. # [23:31] <jwalden> yes, 'tis
  165. # [23:32] <jwalden> "length" in []
  166. # [23:32] <Hixie> aha, yes, 11.8.7
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  168. # [23:33] <jwalden> also nice: "or it could be inserted into a DOM as static text (using .innerText)"
  169. # [23:34] <Hixie> http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/2000/PX02991.pdf is why office documents are such a mess, presumably
  170. # [23:34] <jwalden> and really, "1" as the value of the header instead of "yes", "true", "enabled", etc.?
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  172. # [23:41] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  173. # [23:41] <annevk> Hixie, documents like that make me wonder why i'm so fricking naive
  174. # [23:42] <annevk> the thought that they're actually making office suck on purpose never occured to me
  175. # [23:43] <othermaciej> hmmm
  176. # [23:43] <othermaciej> do they have any real security risks in mind?
  177. # [23:43] <othermaciej> I keep asking and they keep giving vague answers
  178. # [23:43] <vlad_> Hixie: wow
  179. # [23:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: man, lots of juicy emails from that case, eh?
  180. # [23:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: indeed
  181. # [23:45] * annevk blogs this one
  182. # [23:45] <vlad_> I'm sure Microsoft has turned over a new leaf, though
  183. # [23:45] <vlad_> Silverwhat will user in a new era of happy compatability and openness
  184. # [23:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: these emails are very interesting to me in the huge difference of the kinds of issues Gates cares about vs. the kind of issues my CEO cared about
  185. # [23:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: same here
  186. # [23:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: if our CEO tried that kind of stuff here, there would be a riot
  187. # [23:46] <othermaciej> I don't even mean the evil
  188. # [23:46] <othermaciej> SJ is no saint
  189. # [23:46] <othermaciej> he just would not care about long-term strategic impact of tiny technical details
  190. # [23:46] <Hixie> ah
  191. # [23:46] <othermaciej> he has people to think about that kind of thing for him
  192. # [23:47] <vlad_> isn't it a CEO's job to care about long-term strategic impact?
  193. # [23:47] <roc> that's an oldie but a goodie
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  195. # [23:48] <roc> I'm actually quite impressed by billg's grasp of details
  196. # [23:49] <roc> what annoys me is that if you take this stuff seriously and behave reasonably in response, you end up being painted as some sort of anti-Microsoft zealot freak
  197. # [23:50] <vlad_> roc: or that there's always a claim that it's always "old-microsoft" that did this
  198. # [23:51] <roc> yeah "we've changed, give us another chance"
  199. # [23:52] <Hixie> i didn't note it down, but one of the e-mails referred to the previous DOJ case, whining about how unjust it was
  200. # [23:52] <Hixie> which would seem to suggest that they haven't figured out why that behaviour is wrong
  201. # [23:52] <Hixie> so it seems unlikely they'd have changed
  202. # [23:52] <roc> it's cultural
  203. # [23:52] <roc> hard to change
  204. # [23:53] <Philip`> othermaciej: I think Bill Gates sent more emails than the ones that were used as evidence in that case, so there are probably many more things he cares more about which are perfectly good things, and it only looks so different because of the bias in the selection
  205. # [23:53] <Philip`> or, uh, something like that
  206. # [23:54] <othermaciej> Philip`: I'm not even saying he's more evil, just different focus
  207. # [23:54] <Philip`> Indeed, I should have read your subsequent lines too :-)
  208. # [23:54] <roc> the problem isn't that he's more evil, it's that he's better at it
  209. # [23:54] <roc> or was
  210. # [23:54] <othermaciej> vlad_: SJ is much more concerned about the user experience as opposed to platform wars (which is what I perceive as BillG's focus)
  211. # [23:55] <othermaciej> both can of course be laden with strategic concerns
  212. # [23:55] <vlad_> othermaciej: yeah, true
  213. # [23:55] <vlad_> though both seem like valid things for a CEO to focus on.. but billg does definitely seem to be more focused on crush-competition
  214. # [23:55] <othermaciej> and of course, Apple has a mixed record on interoperability, although I would like to think we are doing very well on that in the web space
  215. # [23:55] <jwalden> it's not SJ's job to think, it's his job to be an artist</fakesteve>
  216. # [23:55] <jwalden> :-)
  217. # [23:56] <vlad_> true.. apple's interop record is nowhere near as bad as microsoft's, though -- and it never really seemed all that bad
  218. # Session Close: Tue Mar 18 00:00:00 2008

The end :)