/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-21 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 21 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> jgraham: is the bug in lxml 2 or html5lib?
  4. # [00:02] <jgraham> Hixie: It's in html5lib
  5. # [00:03] <jgraham> We were using a kind of hack to make lxml work (using a technically invalid tag name to represent the notional root node), which worked OK in lxml 1 but not in 2 which actually checks
  6. # [00:03] <Hixie> ah
  7. # [00:05] <jgraham> (it's actually mostly fixed in svn but there are a few issues with treewalkers and so that need to be ironed out)
  8. # [00:06] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@70-2-96-174.area5.spcsdns.net)
  9. # [00:08] <bzed> jgraham: thanks for the info, I'll ping you again in a fwe weeks :)
  10. # [00:08] <jgraham> bzed: Yeah do.
  11. # [00:09] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  12. # [00:22] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-3223.bb.online.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  13. # [00:23] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  14. # [00:24] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  15. # [00:29] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.222)
  16. # [00:32] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acdd157.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  17. # [00:36] <Hixie> jgraham: ok, i think i got all the kinks out of the algorithm
  18. # [00:37] <Hixie> jgraham: if you have a moment, i'd love to make sure it's not broken before checking it in :-)
  19. # [00:37] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#processing
  20. # [00:40] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Success)
  21. # [00:43] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-1ac4b0281ea6aea2)
  22. # [00:43] <jgraham> Hixie: I'll have a look but I don't have a good way to check for mistakes
  23. # [00:44] <Hixie> i am relying on your brain :-)
  24. # [00:44] <jgraham> As I said...
  25. # [00:45] <Hixie> i've checked it in, anyway
  26. # [00:45] <Hixie> i figure if there are issues, we'll find them soon enough
  27. # [00:45] <Hixie> oh crap i forgot to update the next section
  28. # [00:47] <jgraham> A row group is a set of rows anchored at a slot (0, groupy) with a particular height such that the row group covers all the slots with coordinates (x, y) where 0 ≤ x < x_width-1
  29. # [00:48] <jgraham> should that be 0 ≤ x < x_width
  30. # [00:48] <jgraham> ?
  31. # [00:48] <jgraham> (since x = x_width-1 is the last column)
  32. # [00:48] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  33. # [00:48] <Hixie> yes
  34. # [00:48] <Hixie> good catch
  35. # [00:48] <Hixie> will fix
  36. # [00:48] <jgraham> Similarly wih column groups
  37. # [00:50] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-35-111.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  38. # [00:50] <jgraham> Can a cll be in 0 row groups now? I thought that there was always at least 1 implied row group before
  39. # [00:51] <jruderman> does Opera have an email address for reporting security issues?
  40. # [00:51] <Hixie> it's always been able to be in zero groups
  41. # [00:51] <Hixie> xhtml: <table><tr><td>cell with no groups</td></tr></table>
  42. # [00:52] <Hixie> ok, fixed the problems above, and the section after (assigning), too. (reload if you care to check)
  43. # [00:52] <jgraham> Ah, XHTML
  44. # [00:53] <jgraham> jruderman: I think you use the form at http://www.opera.com/support/bugs/
  45. # [00:53] <jruderman> jgraham: you can't attach files there, so it's kinda useless for reporting security holes
  46. # [00:54] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  47. # [00:54] <jgraham> jruderman: "When your report is submitted, you will get an e-mail address to which you can send updates and attachments relevant to your report. "
  48. # [00:54] <jruderman> oh
  49. # [00:54] <jruderman> thanks
  50. # [00:54] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-8-145.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  51. # [00:55] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  52. # [00:56] * Joins: eseidel__ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  53. # [01:04] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-8-145.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  54. # [01:06] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  55. # [01:07] * eseidel__ is now known as eseidel
  56. # [01:12] * Quits: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  57. # [01:12] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.98.222)
  58. # [01:13] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  59. # [01:16] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-14d44576faeafc49) ("a")
  60. # [01:20] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@174.sub-75-209-164.myvzw.com)
  61. # [01:25] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaicje
  62. # [01:28] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-e118416477faa999)
  63. # [01:29] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-1ac4b0281ea6aea2) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  64. # [01:29] <jgraham> Hixie: I can't see any obvious errors in the rest of the algorithm, but I didn't rigorously check everything, particularly the places where you changed the constraints so x_current always <= x_width and similarly with y_current
  65. # [01:33] <Hixie> k
  66. # [01:33] <Hixie> as always, let me know if you run into problems ever :-)
  67. # [01:34] * Quits: othermaicje (n=mjs@17.255.98.222)
  68. # [01:42] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  69. # [01:54] <gsnedders> Can someone get me held back in school, just so I can stay in Secondary 5?
  70. # [02:03] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  71. # [02:06] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.222)
  72. # [02:07] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@174.sub-75-209-164.myvzw.com) ("The computer fell asleep")
  73. # [02:07] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-3874152933d0a0df)
  74. # [02:11] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.222) (Nick collision from services.)
  75. # [02:11] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  76. # [02:17] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  77. # [02:21] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  78. # [02:28] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  79. # [02:31] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@204.9.178.253)
  80. # [02:38] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  81. # [02:38] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com)
  82. # [02:41] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-e118416477faa999)
  83. # [02:44] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  84. # [02:48] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  85. # [02:50] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  86. # [03:07] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  87. # [03:13] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Remote closed the connection)
  88. # [03:30] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  89. # [04:09] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  90. # [04:12] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com)
  91. # [04:13] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1177683986.dsl.bell.ca)
  92. # [04:24] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@204.9.178.253) ("The computer fell asleep")
  93. # [04:28] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  94. # [04:30] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  95. # [04:31] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com)
  96. # [04:36] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-3874152933d0a0df)
  97. # [04:43] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@118.sub-70-210-153.myvzw.com)
  98. # [04:47] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  99. # [04:50] * Quits: Thezilch (i=fuz007@cpe-76-171-105-220.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  100. # [04:50] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  101. # [05:26] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  102. # [05:26] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com)
  103. # [05:30] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-232-12-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  104. # [05:31] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@118.sub-70-210-153.myvzw.com) ("The computer fell asleep")
  105. # [05:33] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  106. # [05:52] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-THREE-O-EIGHT.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  107. # [06:52] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("g'night")
  108. # [07:31] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  109. # [07:58] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1177683986.dsl.bell.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  110. # [08:13] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@p9258c3.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  111. # [08:17] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@p9258c3.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  112. # [08:29] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  113. # [08:54] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0033.html
  114. # [09:15] <hsivonen> http://www.dehora.net/journal/2008/03/20/html5-obs/
  115. # [09:32] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  116. # [09:34] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0058.html
  117. # [09:35] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0061.html
  118. # [09:39] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-4082.bb.online.no)
  119. # [09:58] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  120. # [10:04] * Quits: anttik (n=antti@c-98-210-186-181.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  121. # [10:11] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  122. # [10:14] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  123. # [10:15] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  124. # [10:17] <svl> To see "Aunt Tilly" and "simply deploy RDF documents" in the same sentence...
  125. # [10:18] <hsivonen> regarding UTF-8 as a token default alongside windows-1252: it seems that people who use UTF-8 have a clue about declaring it
  126. # [10:28] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  127. # [10:38] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  128. # [10:45] * Joins: a-ja (n=chatzill@adsl-70-237-201-197.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net)
  129. # [10:48] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbj251.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  130. # [11:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: did you examine the behavior of getProbableCharsets() in jchardet? Is the *last* entry in the array always the most probable?
  131. # [11:08] * Joins: Cerbera (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  132. # [11:12] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess I should just let the detection fail if UTF-16 is the most probable
  133. # [11:12] <hsivonen> instead of trying to take the next most probable
  134. # [11:25] * Quits: a-ja (n=chatzill@adsl-70-237-201-197.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) ("Chatzilla 0.9.77-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.4/2006060814]")
  135. # [11:49] * Parts: Cerbera (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  136. # [12:24] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-35-111.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  137. # [12:53] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  138. # [12:58] <hsivonen> Hixie, annevk: the discussion in this Mozilla bug might be of interest: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=289938
  139. # [13:21] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  140. # [13:32] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8466472551c02a99)
  141. # [13:37] <virtuelv> I believe annevk is on vacation
  142. # [13:39] <hsivonen> right. I forgot
  143. # [13:46] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  144. # [13:48] <hsivonen> http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2008-March/000660.html
  145. # [14:09] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  146. # [14:11] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8466472551c02a99) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  147. # [14:11] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cb036c79c95842fc)
  148. # [14:22] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  149. # [14:23] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com)
  150. # [14:24] <BenMillard> hi all, Simon 'Zcorpan' Pieters told me Hixie had gotten to table issues
  151. # [14:25] <BenMillard> he linked me to the tracker and the recent IRC chat
  152. # [14:27] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  153. # [14:27] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-232-12-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  154. # [14:31] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cb036c79c95842fc) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  155. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - have you tested install of your conformance checker on OSX?
  156. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> virtuelv - I really wish there were some way I could easily install the latest opera snapshot/weekly without needing to the goddamn desktop team blog page to check and manually get the link
  157. # [14:35] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: you want build feeds?
  158. # [14:35] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1279588668.dsl.bell.ca)
  159. # [14:36] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-4082.bb.online.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  160. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> Dashiva - I was going to say to virtuelv that I really don't care what the mechanism is as long as I've got some automated way to install the test build when I want to
  161. # [14:43] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  162. # [14:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I develop on Mac OS X, but I haven't tested a clean install on OS X in a while
  163. # [14:44] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  164. # [14:44] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L991f.l.pppool.de)
  165. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK, just wondering. I've been messing around a bit lately with shell stuff under Darwin on OSX and just wondering if there were any gotchas
  166. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> one thing I noticed so far is that it's not really obvious what JAVA_HOME is
  167. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> but eventually managed to figure out it's /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/CurrentJDK/Home
  168. # [14:50] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  169. # [14:55] * Quits: Charl (n=charlvn@196-209-25-154-nngy-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za) ("Leaving")
  170. # [14:57] <BenMillard> I've told Accessify Forums (as "Cerbera") about the tables section of HTML5 changing. I hope it's a fair summary: http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=59125#59125
  171. # [15:24] * csarven finds http://csseleven.com/ lame on so many levels
  172. # [15:26] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  173. # [15:27] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  174. # [15:30] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-232-12-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  175. # [15:46] <hsivonen> ouch. the spec has grow past the Validator.nu size limit again
  176. # [15:48] <zcorpan_> Hixie: while you're working on tables, i think the table processing should look at child <col> elements of <table>
  177. # [15:48] <zcorpan_> (and that it should be allowed and perhaps that the html parser shouldn't imply <colgroup> -- i've sent email about this if i recall correctly)
  178. # [15:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: re: attributes defaulted from a DTD: If the user chooses DTD processing, Validator.nu processes the DTD. If that sucks for the user, the users shouldn't ask for DTD processing
  179. # [15:49] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: fair enough :)
  180. # [15:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: however, I have considered cloning Gecko's DTD behavior and offering that as an option
  181. # [15:50] <hsivonen> but I don't want to do it unless there's agreement that Gecko's DTD behavior should be grandfathered into the Web platform
  182. # [15:55] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-bb5170bceba95f84)
  183. # [15:57] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com)
  184. # [16:04] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-3272.bb.online.no)
  185. # [16:05] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  186. # [16:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: I haven't tried using getProbableCharsets at all
  187. # [16:07] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  188. # [16:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  189. # [16:07] * Joins: jgraham_mibbit (i=836f44b5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6eddfcb2cc4f2d60)
  190. # [16:08] <hsivonen> csarven: is there any point other than self-promotion with pictures and minibios?
  191. # [16:09] <jgraham_mibbit> BenMillard: I think tha's a fair summary although I guess Hixie can come up with an entirely novel algorithm
  192. # [16:11] <csarven> hsivonen My thoughts exactly!
  193. # [16:16] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  194. # [16:24] <BenMillard> jgraham_mibbit, thanks and that's a possibility zcorpan mentioned.
  195. # [16:31] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  196. # [16:40] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@bas16-montreal02-1279588668.dsl.bell.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  197. # [16:55] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  198. # [16:55] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  199. # [16:55] * Parts: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com)
  200. # [16:56] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
  201. # [17:03] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com)
  202. # [17:12] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  203. # [17:13] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  204. # [17:22] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  205. # [17:44] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  206. # [17:44] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  207. # [17:44] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com)
  208. # [17:46] * Quits: jgraham_mibbit (i=836f44b5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6eddfcb2cc4f2d60) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
  209. # [17:49] * Joins: anttik (n=antti@17.203.15.216)
  210. # [17:52] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-69-181-78-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  211. # [17:57] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  212. # [18:00] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@241.sub-75-209-236.myvzw.com)
  213. # [18:01] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  214. # [18:10] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  215. # [18:11] * Quits: weinig|away (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  216. # [18:20] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@T7969.t.pppool.de)
  217. # [18:27] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-3272.bb.online.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  218. # [18:32] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@241.sub-75-209-236.myvzw.com) ("The computer fell asleep")
  219. # [18:34] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-9e2e59d7db3611fa)
  220. # [18:38] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L991f.l.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  221. # [18:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: if you want to let the html4all people know, there will be a gigantic e-mail coming out relatively soon discussing all the table edits in great detail
  222. # [18:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: i just didn't want to delay the edits until i'd done editing the spec
  223. # [18:39] <Hixie> er, until i'd done replying to the e-mail, i mean
  224. # [18:57] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-e22b4a592eb0e372)
  225. # [18:58] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-3272.bb.online.no)
  226. # [19:00] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  227. # [19:23] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  228. # [19:28] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  229. # [19:39] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  230. # [19:50] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  231. # [19:51] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-48c0b22d508b32a8)
  232. # [19:56] * Joins: Philip`_ (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
  233. # [20:02] <Philip`_> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges - Mpsingh looks like a spammer
  234. # [20:08] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-48c0b22d508b32a8) ("The computer fell asleep")
  235. # [20:09] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-e22b4a592eb0e372) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  236. # [20:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-99c824d67bf84fd9)
  237. # [20:11] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  238. # [20:12] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@T7969.t.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  239. # [20:19] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-9e2e59d7db3611fa)
  240. # [20:30] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  241. # [20:31] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@c-71-198-2-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  242. # [20:32] <andersca> Hixie: found a tiny typo in the spec
  243. # [20:32] <andersca> Explicit entries can also be marked as foreign, which means that they have an manifest attribute but that it doesn't point at this cache's manifest.
  244. # [20:32] <andersca> an manifest => a manifest
  245. # [20:33] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  246. # [20:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: mentioned as part of replying on html4all
  247. # [20:44] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  248. # [20:52] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  249. # [20:53] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-99c824d67bf84fd9) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  250. # [20:54] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-a09865f0d90538a7)
  251. # [20:55] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  252. # [20:56] <andersca> Hixie: also, ping
  253. # [20:56] <andersca> :)
  254. # [20:57] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  255. # [20:58] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  256. # [21:01] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-3272.bb.online.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  257. # [21:01] * Pavlov_ summons hixie too, for good measure
  258. # [21:02] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8c4138b9515adacc)
  259. # [21:02] <andersca> cool
  260. # [21:05] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-202-38-38.client.mchsi.com)
  261. # [21:05] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com)
  262. # [21:06] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-4041.bb.online.no)
  263. # [21:08] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  264. # [21:13] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-a09865f0d90538a7) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  265. # [21:13] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-d790f4c9f3809ec6)
  266. # [21:13] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-a2dc90cecee07946)
  267. # [21:19] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-a2dc90cecee07946)
  268. # [21:24] * Joins: mfinkle (n=mfinkle@m7b0f36d0.tmodns.net)
  269. # [21:30] * Joins: JohnResig (n=jresig@c-66-31-203-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  270. # [21:33] <Hixie> andersca, Pavlov_: here
  271. # [21:33] * Quits: mfinkle (n=mfinkle@m7b0f36d0.tmodns.net)
  272. # [21:34] <Hixie> andersca: and sorry to be a pain, but if you could, please mail the typo to me :-) (either the list or ian@hixie.ch if you don't want to spam the list)
  273. # [21:34] <andersca> Hixie: I would rather have all those typos exposed on the whatwg list ;)
  274. # [21:35] <Hixie> sure thing :-)
  275. # [21:35] <andersca> Hixie: also, I was wondering why null characters in the manifest file should be converted to fffd?
  276. # [21:36] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.10)
  277. # [21:36] <Hixie> to avoid any problems with implementors wanting to use null-terminated strings
  278. # [21:37] <Hixie> it's been a source of many problems in other parts of the web platform
  279. # [21:38] <andersca> ap: did you see that
  280. # [21:39] <ap> Hixie: the problems in other parts were fixed without changing decoding of nulls - I think it would be better to have a consistent approach
  281. # [21:39] <Hixie> the html5 parser handles nulls in much the same way
  282. # [21:39] <ap> Hixie: hmm, do any browsers follow that?
  283. # [21:40] <ap> Hixie: for all I know, WebKit just treats nulls as normal characters
  284. # [21:40] <Hixie> some do. others treat them as nulls, and yet others have security bugs (they just strip out the nulls, or truncate at nulls, both of which can be used for xss or similar behaviours)
  285. # [21:41] <Hixie> to be honest it really doesn't matter much what we do with nulls here, since none of the magic strings contain nulls, and URIs aren't allowed to contain nulls.
  286. # [21:41] <Hixie> (or fffds)
  287. # [21:41] <Hixie> i don't really understand why it's a problem
  288. # [21:41] <Hixie> so long as the behaviour is indistinguishable from treating nulls as FFFDs
  289. # [21:41] <ap> Hixie: I'd just prefer to avoid introducing yet another mode in the decoder
  290. # [21:42] <Hixie> the spec doesn't say anything about how you implement it
  291. # [21:42] <ap> Hixie: hmm, I think andersca was talking about this phrase from the spec: "All U+0000 NULL characters must be replaced by U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTERs."
  292. # [21:43] <Hixie> right, so long as the result is equivalent to this, it doesn't matter how you do it
  293. # [21:43] <Hixie> in fact i think that line is effectively redundant, so long as you correctly detect whether URIs are valid or not
  294. # [21:44] <othermaciej> why not just wait for Opera to fix their null character handling bugs
  295. # [21:44] <Hixie> since both FFFD and 0000 are invalid in URIs
  296. # [21:44] <ap> Hixie: ok, I guess I didn't have enough context, and thought that this had practical consequences
  297. # [21:44] <andersca> oh, sorry about that :(
  298. # [21:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: this isn't about those bugs
  299. # [21:44] * andersca is now known as ac_lunch
  300. # [21:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: but the null->fffd stuff in the parser is there because nulls have caused far many more problems than just in opera
  301. # [21:45] <Hixie> e.g. the status bar bug several years back
  302. # [21:45] <Hixie> and since there really is no use case for U+0000 on the Web, it seems far safer to just remove it altogether
  303. # [21:45] <othermaciej> nulls are certainly risky when you mix with C APIs
  304. # [21:45] <othermaciej> but converting them in some places but not others is an annoying burden
  305. # [21:45] <ap> Hixie: sounds like a warning could have better effect than a somewhat misguiding requirement in a sample algorithm
  306. # [21:46] <othermaciej> and you really want your code to be safe against nulls in strings anyway
  307. # [21:46] <Hixie> ap: send mail :-)
  308. # [21:46] <ap> Hixie: k
  309. # [21:46] <Hixie> thanks
  310. # [21:46] <othermaciej> but if the conversion doesn't affect results of the algorithm then it does not matter much in this case
  311. # [21:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: in the manifest case, i don't think there's any noticeable effect, and we can probably remove it
  312. # [21:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: in the html parser case, i agree that it is unfortunate that you can still introduce nulls through the DOM APIs
  313. # [21:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: not much i can do about that, though
  314. # [21:48] * othermaciej blames the Unicode consortium
  315. # [21:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: still seems far safer and better to make nulls become FFFDs, since you already have to have code to turn a number of other things into FFFDs and have to do newline normalisation anyway
  316. # [21:48] <Hixie> anyway
  317. # [21:48] <Hixie> please discuss this on a mailing list :-)
  318. # [21:48] * Hixie is working on tables
  319. # [21:50] <gsnedders> eww! you can't use tables! they're presentational! divs ftw!
  320. # [21:54] * hsivonen likes \0 to FFFD substitution in the parser
  321. # [21:56] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
  322. # [21:57] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  323. # [21:58] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8c4138b9515adacc)
  324. # [22:00] <BenMillard> hixie, is there anything I can be doing to help your work on tables?
  325. # [22:06] * Philip` sees the last paragraph of http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2008-March/000663.html and conducts some research
  326. # [22:06] <Philip`> Out of about 130,000 random pages from dmoz.org, the 'axis' attribute is used on http://www.cdsm.co.uk/ and http://centerville.lionwap.org/ and http://gazianteplionsclubtr.lionwap.org/
  327. # [22:06] * Philip` concludes that it's quite rare, and that he has insufficient data to conclude anything else
  328. # [22:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: I assume you keep a local cache of 130000 pages?
  329. # [22:07] <Philip`> hsivonen: Yes
  330. # [22:08] <hsivonen> how much disk space does the cache take?
  331. # [22:08] <Philip`> I wouldn't want the cost of downloading ~3GB of content every time I wanted to find a little more information :-)
  332. # [22:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: ~3GB
  333. # [22:08] <Philip`> (having clamped each page to 256KB)
  334. # [22:09] <Philip`> (since the (unclamped) mean size of a page is infinite)
  335. # [22:10] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  336. # [22:10] <Philip`> If disk space was a concern, I imagine compression could help significantly
  337. # [22:10] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-4041.bb.online.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  338. # [22:11] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti132110a341-4041.bb.online.no)
  339. # [22:13] <Philip`> (http://triin.net/archive/kool/webstat/figure-8.png suggests almost everything is <=256KB, so that seems a reasonable limit to impose)
  340. # [22:13] <Philip`> (though actually I picked the value pretty arbitrarily)
  341. # [22:15] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  342. # [22:15] <hsivonen> If I have understood axis correctly (not a safe assuption), http://gazianteplionsclubtr.lionwap.org/ uses axis in a useless way
  343. # [22:15] <hsivonen> as does http://centerville.lionwap.org/
  344. # [22:16] <hsivonen> and http://www.cdsm.co.uk/
  345. # [22:16] * Parts: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.10)
  346. # [22:17] * jgraham_ is pretty sure axis is useless
  347. # [22:18] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  348. # [22:20] <Philip`> At least it's abused far less frequently than many other attributes
  349. # [22:32] * BenMillard agrees with jgraham
  350. # [22:35] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-5e58f09e86c3aac6)
  351. # [22:37] <BenMillard> I'm off for some supper, some TV and then bed. bye all
  352. # [22:37] <hsivonen> ye
  353. # [22:37] <hsivonen> bye even
  354. # [22:38] <BenMillard> cya
  355. # [22:38] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  356. # [22:39] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-d790f4c9f3809ec6) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  357. # [22:40] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-0d5d87560327b48f)
  358. # [22:50] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-bb5170bceba95f84)
  359. # [22:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-0d5d87560327b48f) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  360. # [22:50] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-698290138093b359)
  361. # [23:15] * ac_lunch is now known as andersca
  362. # [23:18] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  363. # [23:19] <jgraham_> http://james.html5.org/graph_2.svg -> possibly all the state transitions made in the html5lib treebuilder testcases (assuming I didn't screw up)
  364. # [23:20] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  365. # [23:20] * jgraham_ will work out how to distinguish "real" transitions from "reprocess as if in" transitions next (that graph should have both)
  366. # [23:21] <Hixie> how do you go from AfterBodyPhase to InFramesetPhase?
  367. # [23:22] <Hixie> oh that's the "process using the rules for" thing
  368. # [23:22] <Hixie> nevermind
  369. # [23:22] <Hixie> there are iirc only four insertion modes that can be subject to that, btw
  370. # [23:22] <Hixie> if that helps optimise code
  371. # [23:23] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-199-53.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  372. # [23:29] * Joins: anttik_ (n=antti@17.255.105.109)
  373. # [23:31] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acbh19.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  374. # [23:44] * Quits: anttik (n=antti@17.203.15.216) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  375. # [23:47] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbj251.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  376. # [23:49] * Joins: anttik (n=antti@17.203.15.216)
  377. # [23:53] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  378. # [23:57] <Philip`> jgraham_: That's quite nice :-)
  379. # Session Close: Sat Mar 22 00:00:00 2008

The end :)