/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-03-28 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 28 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Philip` wonders how many people use normal U.S.-compliant configurations
  4. # [00:00] <roc> haven't those patents expired yet?
  5. # [00:00] <Philip`> http://freetype.sourceforge.net/patents.html says 1989 and 1992
  6. # [00:03] <hsivonen> patents should require the "apparatus" to be something more novel than a Turing-complete computer
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie> woah, the whatwg "html5" page is back up to 3rd spot on google
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> sweet
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> i didn't even have to go bribe anyone in the web search team
  10. # [00:03] <annevk> :p
  11. # [00:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: depends on local version, it seems
  12. # [00:03] <annevk> it's 1st for me btw
  13. # [00:03] <hsivonen> whatwg.org is today #1 in .fi
  14. # [00:03] <Hixie> cool
  15. # [00:03] * Philip` sees that Gentoo compiles Freetype with the patenting hinting, unless you're building a distributable binary package
  16. # [00:04] <Hixie> may be just personalised results
  17. # [00:04] <roc> It's #1 in .au
  18. # [00:04] <Philip`> hsivonen: Including if you don't have Google-cookies?
  19. # [00:04] <annevk> hmm, as in, Google thinks I prefer WHATWG over W3C? :D
  20. # [00:04] <othermaciej> Hixie: they're probably just counting on you to inject their evil bloatware pet features directly into the HTML5 spec
  21. # [00:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: I thought I had the tinfoil hat on
  22. # [00:04] <Philip`> It's first and third for me in different browsers
  23. # [00:04] <Hixie> oh wow. whatwg is first in the normal results
  24. # [00:04] <Hixie> but w3c is first when i'm logged in
  25. # [00:04] <Hixie> hahaha
  26. # [00:04] <Hixie> google thinks i prefer the w3c to the whatwg
  27. # [00:04] <Hixie> that is funny as hell
  28. # [00:04] <othermaciej> google personalization fails
  29. # [00:05] <annevk> lol
  30. # [00:05] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-e0461780e4673c02) ("The computer fell asleep")
  31. # [00:05] <Philip`> Maybe it knows you've already got bookmarks to the WHATWG and so you don't need even more ways to access it
  32. # [00:05] <Hixie> haha
  33. # [00:08] <hsivonen> hmm. google.fi has become less country-biased on my ego search
  34. # [00:08] * Philip` imagines SEO people aren't so happy about personalised results, because it's kind of hard to sell definite results
  35. # [00:08] <hsivonen> I used to be famous for totally different things on .fi and on .com
  36. # [00:09] <Philip`> Better than not being famous at all
  37. # [00:09] <roc> grrr
  38. # [00:10] <roc> My war with Eminem has no end ... http://www.google.com.au/search?q=I'm+back
  39. # [00:11] <hsivonen> zeldman is still in the lead: http://www.google.com/search?q=doctype
  40. # [00:11] <othermaciej> roc: are you the real Slim Shady?
  41. # [00:12] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@216.239.45.19)
  42. # [00:13] <roc> your sophisticated hip-hop references are lost on me
  43. # [00:15] <Hixie> you'd think that chris and dan would have given up on the html telecons by now
  44. # [00:16] <othermaciej> heh
  45. # [00:16] <Hixie> there are three people on the call. a chair, a w3c staff contact (who has no choice), and someone who just dropped off, who i think is laura
  46. # [00:17] <Dashiva> How many active on IRC?
  47. # [00:17] <Hixie> four
  48. # [00:17] <Hixie> two of which are IRC bots
  49. # [00:17] * Joins: tommorris_ (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  50. # [00:18] <Philip`> Sounds like the bots are beginning to take over
  51. # [00:18] <Hixie> strange place to start
  52. # [00:18] <Hixie> the htmlwg telecons :-)
  53. # [00:18] <Philip`> When humans succumb to apathy, their creations will rule the world
  54. # [00:20] <Hixie> six people active!
  55. # [00:20] <Hixie> well, four, and two bots
  56. # [00:20] <Hixie> the other two people being anne and myself, who apparently were both watching!
  57. # [00:21] * Philip` wonders why users who explicitly disable significant browser features should expect a good user experience
  58. # [00:22] <Hixie> hm?
  59. # [00:23] <Philip`> (Recent public-html email)
  60. # [00:23] <Hixie> ah
  61. # [00:35] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  62. # [00:36] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@216.239.45.19) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  63. # [00:37] <Dashiva> Philip`: Disabling scripting actually improves the user experience on some sites :)
  64. # [00:47] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@eto8.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  65. # [00:47] <gsnedders> It breaks a grand total of nothing on my site.
  66. # [00:48] <gsnedders> But there again, I see no need for scripting on my site.
  67. # [00:52] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com)
  68. # [00:55] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  69. # [01:14] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  70. # [01:24] <Hixie> maybe instead of .data['foo']
  71. # [01:24] <Hixie> we should have .getData('foo')
  72. # [01:24] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  73. # [01:24] <Hixie> but then it's not much better than .getAttribute('data-foo') anyway
  74. # [01:27] <annevk> .dataset.foo
  75. # [01:27] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@142.sub-75-209-78.myvzw.com)
  76. # [01:28] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  77. # [01:28] <Hixie> the advantage of .data.foo is that we could provide .data.foo.has('foo')
  78. # [01:28] <Hixie> or .data.foo.asList(',')[0] if it's a comma separated list or something
  79. # [01:28] <Hixie> i guess that'd just be .data.foo.split(',')
  80. # [01:29] <Hixie> i should look at the dojo source
  81. # [01:44] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@142.sub-75-209-78.myvzw.com) ("The computer fell asleep")
  82. # [01:47] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  83. # [01:49] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  84. # [02:05] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  85. # [02:10] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  86. # [02:10] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  87. # [02:14] <eseidel> othermaciej, Hixie: continueing from #webkit..
  88. # [02:14] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@dsl093-034-068.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  89. # [02:14] <eseidel> so you do you have an opinion on postMessage sync behavior?
  90. # [02:15] <eseidel> as I was saying in #webkit, I think sync is broken/bad for browsers
  91. # [02:15] <Hixie> i don't have any strong opinions
  92. # [02:15] <Hixie> i don't recall why we did it synchronous
  93. # [02:15] <eseidel> Hixie: my issue is in the scrollback of #webkit. but basically, postMessage being sync seems like it could cause issues for FF or Safari, once they land squirrel fish
  94. # [02:16] <othermaciej> I don't think postMessage being sync creates implementation-specific issues
  95. # [02:16] <eseidel> since with suspendable js, tabs can be running js in parallel
  96. # [02:16] <Hixie> wtf is squirrel fish
  97. # [02:16] <eseidel> Hixie: yet-another-re-write of the js interpreter
  98. # [02:16] <othermaciej> I'm also not sure we'd ever support different tabs running JS in parallel if it can be observed
  99. # [02:17] <othermaciej> it's our silly code name for a JS refactoring branch
  100. # [02:17] <eseidel> well, back to the basic issue. tab opens another tab. first tab posts to the second, second tab hangs
  101. # [02:17] <othermaciej> async feels right and works better if it is likely postMessage sequences will involve lots of replies back and forth
  102. # [02:17] <othermaciej> I can't really argue for it more than that
  103. # [02:17] <eseidel> assuming JS isn't run in teh UI thread
  104. # [02:17] <eseidel> which was always my point with bytecode work
  105. # [02:18] <Hixie> well i'm certainly ok with changing it
  106. # [02:18] <eseidel> I wanted an interruptable interpreter
  107. # [02:18] <Hixie> but i guess it depends on the browsers
  108. # [02:18] <othermaciej> keep in mind, if two windows are same domain they can call each other directly
  109. # [02:18] <Hixie> postMessage() has change a dozen times already
  110. # [02:18] <othermaciej> without postMessage
  111. # [02:18] <Hixie> the mozilla guys will kill me if it changes again
  112. # [02:18] <othermaciej> in Safari we turned it off for 3.1 due to spec changes
  113. # [02:18] <eseidel> othermaciej: so maybe i'm missunderstanding it. maybe it's when two tabs are opened independantly
  114. # [02:18] <othermaciej> I would not be against making it async
  115. # [02:18] <othermaciej> I don't feel strongly
  116. # [02:19] <othermaciej> eseidel: to use postMessage you still need a reference to the other window object
  117. # [02:19] <othermaciej> the only new thing it opens up is that this can be cross-domain
  118. # [02:21] <dglazkov> the async spec is what Hixie was working on?
  119. # [02:21] <Hixie> yeah there is an async message thing i'm working on too
  120. # [02:21] <Hixie> but that's separate really
  121. # [02:21] <Hixie> window.postMessage could be sync or async independent of this
  122. # [02:22] <dglazkov> http://hixie.ch/specs/dom/messages/0.9
  123. # [02:22] <Hixie> right
  124. # [02:22] <aroben> eseidel: what issues do you see that are unique to postMessage?
  125. # [02:25] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  126. # [02:25] <eseidel> you reply to a postMessage w/ another yes?
  127. # [02:25] <eseidel> if that's the case, than any time you reply, you're likely to get hung
  128. # [02:26] <eseidel> I guess we could add a timeout
  129. # [02:26] <eseidel> but postMessage feels very UDP to me
  130. # [02:26] <othermaciej> I see, that's essentially passing file descriptors over sockets
  131. # [02:26] <othermaciej> (in unix systems programming terms)
  132. # [02:26] <othermaciej> eseidel: you don't have to reply synchronously, though it does offer the API to do so
  133. # [02:26] <eseidel> you don't wait for your UDP response packet (since it returns void) :)
  134. # [02:27] <othermaciej> eseidel: you can store the source window instead and message it later at a time of your choosing
  135. # [02:27] <eseidel> honestly, the UDP comparison is what sells it for me
  136. # [02:27] <eseidel> if postMessage had a return value, I'd understand
  137. # [02:27] <eseidel> (and that would force it to be sync)
  138. # [02:27] <eseidel> but it's a UDP send call, that's all
  139. # [02:28] <eseidel> ok, time to mail the list
  140. # [02:28] * eseidel just sees postMessage as causing all sorts of deadlocks as-is
  141. # [02:28] <eseidel> list-posting post salsa-class however...
  142. # [02:28] <annevk> now in general dispatching events is synchronous
  143. # [02:29] <annevk> so making it async here doesn't make much sense to me
  144. # [02:29] <othermaciej> postMessage is not like UDP
  145. # [02:29] <othermaciej> it is not intended to be an unreliable transport
  146. # [02:29] <othermaciej> I do think that "message passing" often implies asynchrony
  147. # [02:31] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/mid/083D18C6B9B71F4CBCA7B76D97B7483102C681BD21@NA-EXMSG-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ... I hope he follows that e-mail with one that addresses the concerns raised.
  148. # [02:31] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com)
  149. # [02:32] <othermaciej> I'm still waiting for specifics on the security claims
  150. # [02:32] <Hixie> you won't get any
  151. # [02:32] <eseidel> othermaciej, annevk: so what happens when you message to a frame who is spinning/locked/whatever?
  152. # [02:32] <othermaciej> eseidel: in Safari at least, frames do not have separate threads of control
  153. # [02:32] <othermaciej> so it is not a meaningful question
  154. # [02:34] <eseidel> othermaciej: I guess that's true. gmail runs in the background via settimeout, refresh, etc. but when it hangs, it has already brought down the frame which was trying to talk to it
  155. # [02:35] <eseidel> anyway, I've got to run
  156. # [02:36] * eseidel wonders what other pieces of HTML5 will strike him as broken
  157. # [02:36] <eseidel> ;)
  158. # [02:36] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-45-39.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  159. # [02:37] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-98eecbac406a448b)
  160. # [02:42] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  161. # [02:44] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  162. # [02:44] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  163. # [02:44] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@dsl093-034-068.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  164. # [02:47] * Joins: cpst (n=Cameron@gepetto.cgl.uwaterloo.ca)
  165. # [03:06] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  166. # [03:13] * Parts: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com)
  167. # [03:14] * Joins: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com)
  168. # [03:16] * Parts: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com)
  169. # [03:17] <Hixie> man, why does <object> use data="" instead of src=""
  170. # [03:17] <Hixie> that's so dumb
  171. # [03:19] <othermaciej> it is
  172. # [03:20] <othermaciej> one of the dumber things about it
  173. # [03:26] <Hixie> i wonder if we can just get away with not having data-* on <object>
  174. # [03:26] <Hixie> or if we should just use another DOM name
  175. # [03:26] <Hixie> like anne's "dataset" suggestion
  176. # [03:30] <othermaciej> that's not bad
  177. # [03:30] <othermaciej> or maybe Data Access for Rich Internet Applications - daria
  178. # [03:30] * Joins: zudex (n=dean@203-211-95-63.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  179. # [03:36] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  180. # [03:47] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  181. # [03:48] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  182. # [03:51] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  183. # [03:51] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  184. # [03:52] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  185. # [04:10] * Joins: Thezilch (i=fuz007@cpe-76-170-20-41.socal.res.rr.com)
  186. # [04:14] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  187. # [04:19] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  188. # [04:33] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  189. # [04:48] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  190. # [04:54] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  191. # [05:10] <BenMillard> just to add another syntax suggestion to the custom data brew, how about meta="foo" with meta="bar:baz quux:quuz" for multiple pairs and replace ".data" with ".meta" for the DOM suggestions?
  192. # [05:19] <BenMillard> a single custom attribute for all custom data seems neater in some respects than an unrestricted number of custom attributes
  193. # [05:20] <BenMillard> the "meta" attribute name sort of complements the <meta> element name and they have a similar purpose
  194. # [05:21] <BenMillard> it's slightly fewer keystrokes for authors and slightly fewer bytes to transfer
  195. # [05:23] <BenMillard> meta="bar:baz" would be for a value whose key couldn't be determined from the element or context around that element
  196. # [05:36] <BenMillard> authors concerned about the accessibility and usability of data in title attributes have discussed solutions on Accessify Forums previously, so I've linked them to the recent IRC logs and am now linking you to them: http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=59246#59246
  197. # [05:37] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  198. # [05:47] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  199. # [06:23] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-8-145.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  200. # [06:25] * Parts: richardus (i=david@209.0.48.77) ("i'll standardize *your* markup")
  201. # [06:46] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@adsl-76-203-72-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  202. # [06:56] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@adsl-76-203-72-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  203. # [07:08] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  204. # [07:20] * MacDome is now known as MacDomeAFK
  205. # [07:43] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-63-199-241-42.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net)
  206. # [07:44] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  207. # [07:46] * MacDomeAFK is now known as MacDome
  208. # [07:48] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-45-39.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  209. # [07:48] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  210. # [07:53] <Hixie> i "transclution" a word?
  211. # [07:53] <Hixie> the fourth hit on google for that word is an e-mail i wrote
  212. # [07:53] <Hixie> and there are less than 100 hits
  213. # [07:53] <Pavlov> m-w.com?
  214. # [07:53] <Hixie> which leads me to suspect it's not
  215. # [07:53] <Hixie> but i don't know what the word would be
  216. # [07:54] <Hixie> Pavlov: m-w.com doesn't have it
  217. # [07:55] <jruderman> i think the word you are looking for is "transclusion"
  218. # [07:56] <Hixie> yes, so it seems
  219. # [07:56] <Hixie> thanks
  220. # [07:56] <Hixie> doesn't come up in m-w.com either, of course
  221. # [07:57] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  222. # [08:00] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  223. # [08:01] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies has some solutions on it now
  224. # [08:13] <mitsuhiko> data is a good word
  225. # [08:20] <mitsuhiko> i really hope that ie8 is a joke
  226. # [08:21] <mitsuhiko> interestinly ie 6 renders better than ie8 when it comes to what we do
  227. # [08:23] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  228. # [08:31] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  229. # [08:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  230. # [08:40] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  231. # [09:06] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  232. # [09:12] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  233. # [09:13] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  234. # [09:17] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  235. # [09:24] <hsivonen> Does anyone have experience on how much time it takes to get things running in Amazon EC2?
  236. # [09:39] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  237. # [09:50] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@eto8.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  238. # [10:19] * Parts: zudex (n=dean@203-211-95-63.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  239. # [10:27] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  240. # [10:34] <virtuelv> Hixie: am I missing something, or is an explanation of what the dirty* arguments to putImageData are missing?
  241. # [10:38] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-40054e4e7a13ea5d)
  242. # [10:41] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  243. # [10:42] * Joins: Camaban (n=adrianle@81.133.236.188)
  244. # [10:42] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  245. # [10:44] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  246. # [10:44] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  247. # [10:45] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  248. # [10:45] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  249. # [10:50] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  250. # [10:52] * svl is now known as Sander
  251. # [10:53] * Sander is now known as svl
  252. # [11:01] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  253. # [11:02] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  254. # [11:05] * Quits: Thezilch (i=fuz007@cpe-76-170-20-41.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  255. # [11:05] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-wai-aria-primer-20080204/#alookahead
  256. # [11:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: that section confuses me
  257. # [11:09] <hsivonen> there's no good reason why certain bits of HTML5 could not be implemented in the same schedule as some bits of ARIA
  258. # [11:10] <zcorpan> but the group seems to care more about getting to LC than getting implementations...
  259. # [11:11] <zcorpan> (at least that's the impression i get)
  260. # [11:11] <hsivonen> do PFWG specs need two interoperable impls to advance to REC?
  261. # [11:12] <zcorpan> no idea
  262. # [11:30] * Joins: deane (n=dean@203-211-95-63.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  263. # [11:41] <hsivonen> aaargh. annoying. The XPath attribute thingy requires quotes where CSS attribute selectors work without quotes
  264. # [11:44] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@eto8.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  265. # [11:52] <hsivonen> hmm. ../../ doesn't appear to actually work...
  266. # [12:06] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com)
  267. # [12:10] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  268. # [12:10] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  269. # [12:14] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  270. # [12:14] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  271. # [12:15] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  272. # [12:15] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  273. # [12:19] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  274. # [12:19] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  275. # [12:23] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  276. # [12:24] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@eto8.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  277. # [12:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  278. # [12:37] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  279. # [12:37] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  280. # [12:39] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  281. # [12:39] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  282. # [12:45] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  283. # [12:45] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  284. # [12:51] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  285. # [13:19] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  286. # [13:22] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  287. # [13:28] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-40054e4e7a13ea5d)
  288. # [13:47] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
  289. # [13:49] <Lachy> Hixie, can you zip up a copy of acid3 and all support files for me? The last copy you sent me seems to be a bit out of date and some tests aren't working properly.
  290. # [14:03] * Quits: deane (n=dean@203-211-95-63.ue.woosh.co.nz) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  291. # [14:11] <hsivonen> hmm. I have now sent 44% of all-time messages to public-pfwg-comments
  292. # [14:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: interesting
  293. # [14:17] <hsivonen> which makes me wonder where all the comments from accessibility professionals are
  294. # [14:17] <Philip`> Maybe some are on non-public lists?
  295. # [14:18] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-232-12-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  296. # [14:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: surely all the pros aren't members of the secret list. (then there's wai-xtech, but I'm not seeing much spec review in the archives)
  297. # [14:24] <zcorpan> i haven't seen much spec review at all
  298. # [14:24] <zcorpan> it's also not so easy to review the spec, since it's impossible to do diffs
  299. # [14:24] * hsivonen is just getting more grumpy when diving deeper into HTML5/ARIA integration issues
  300. # [14:24] <zcorpan> (unless you're an editor or in w3c staff or something)
  301. # [14:25] <zcorpan> i'll work on writing test cases for aria combined with native html semantics soonish
  302. # [14:26] <zcorpan> (i have no idea about pass conditions yet so they'll be demos initially)
  303. # [14:26] <zcorpan> i also don't know how to automate aria tests
  304. # [14:26] <zcorpan> i've heard it should be possible somehow
  305. # [14:26] <hsivonen> I think I'm just going to deploy an iteration of Validator.nu with part of the conformance reqs pulled out of my sleeve
  306. # [14:27] <zcorpan> that would be cool
  307. # [14:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: btw, the conformance stuff is updated in the Member-only draft
  308. # [14:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I had a quick look, and it didn't seem to address major issues. I keep reading the public draft otherwise in order to avoid leaking secrets in the Validator.nu SVN repo
  309. # [14:29] <hsivonen> It would be nice if the PFWG made their Editor's Drafts public
  310. # [14:29] <zcorpan> i agree
  311. # [14:29] <zcorpan> i don't get the impression that anything is intended to be secret
  312. # [14:30] <zcorpan> it's just behind closed doors due to cargo cult
  313. # [14:30] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  314. # [14:30] <zcorpan> or at least that's what i want to believe
  315. # [14:32] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com)
  316. # [14:32] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  317. # [14:49] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-bcdd9733edc6be26)
  318. # [14:50] <virtuelv> for what it's worth, http://labs.opera.com/news/2008/03/28/
  319. # [14:51] <virtuelv> 100/100, pixel perfect
  320. # [14:52] * Philip` thinks Acid3's definition of "pass" is too subtle
  321. # [14:52] <Philip`> since 100/100 isn't enough to pass, and being pixel-perfect to the reference isn't either
  322. # [14:53] <virtuelv> Philip`: thinking of the performance stuff?
  323. # [14:54] <Philip`> virtuelv: Yes
  324. # [14:55] <hsivonen> Safari's perf side wasn't smooth on my Mac
  325. # [14:55] <virtuelv> Philip`: clicking the "A" reveals it, but I agree -- it's too subtle
  326. # [14:55] <hsivonen> but it was a lot smoother on reload (but still not smooth)
  327. # [14:55] <virtuelv> which, I think is why we added that extra instruction to the build notice
  328. # [14:56] <Philip`> Particularly with people competing to be the first to 'pass', it's really not helpful if passing is partly subjective or depends on hardware and network conditions
  329. # [14:58] <hsivonen> does Opera on Linux and Windows use the system TTF rasterizer?
  330. # [15:03] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@207.225.184.131)
  331. # [15:05] <virtuelv> hsivonen: I'll have to admit to being a bit unsure about what we do on every platform
  332. # [15:06] <hsivonen> virtuelv: ok. (the OS X builds appear to use the same TrueType rendering code path as Firefox 3)
  333. # [15:12] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  334. # [15:12] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  335. # [15:22] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-232-12-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  336. # [15:30] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  337. # [15:32] * Quits: sayrer (n=chatzill@207.225.184.131) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  338. # [15:32] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  339. # [15:45] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  340. # [15:49] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-b2102183fb56f837)
  341. # [15:50] <BenMillard> zcorpan, section 6 confuses me as well
  342. # [15:50] <BenMillard> the "WCAG 1.0 Style Accessibility" could use a nested list to convey depth
  343. # [15:51] <BenMillard> the alt on the image for the + and - symbols could say "Expanded" or "Closed"
  344. # [15:51] <BenMillard> position would also be handled by using a nested list, AFAICT
  345. # [15:53] <BenMillard> upon expanding part of the tree, the number of items in that branch would become apparent by counting the <li>
  346. # [15:54] <BenMillard> you could use title="4 items" when a branch is closed
  347. # [15:55] <hsivonen> BenMillard: a screen reader saying "item two of fifteen" is chrome but title='' is content
  348. # [15:55] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  349. # [15:57] <BenMillard> according to that document: "Description/Help: Limited to HTML 4.0 - Alt Text, title text"
  350. # [16:03] <Lachy> othermaciej, does apple have any selectors api test cases to contribute to the test suite, which I need to start creating very soon?
  351. # [16:08] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I agree that title="Item x of y" on every item is unnecessary.
  352. # [16:09] <BenMillard> I think I've misunderstood their example. I thought aria-setsize="4" meant how many items were contained by the current item, but it actually seems to be the number of items in that level of the tree
  353. # [16:09] <BenMillard> so you don't need title for that
  354. # [16:11] <hsivonen> BenMillard: my point is that "item x of y" should probably be read in the chrome voice in screen readers that distinguish between content and chrome (like VoiceOver)
  355. # [16:12] <hsivonen> OTOH, untrusted content shouldn't be able to feed arbitrary text to the chrome voice for security reasons
  356. # [16:13] <BenMillard> if it were marked up as a nested list, announcements like that can be figured out by the screen reader without authors adding additional information
  357. # [16:13] <BenMillard> (or marked up as a new HTML form control)
  358. # [16:14] <BenMillard> aria-posinset and aria=setsize are made redundant by the structure of the markup if sensible elements are used as the basis, afaict
  359. # [16:16] <hsivonen> BenMillard: to me, aria-posinset and aria-setsize seem mostly redundant with native semantics, yes
  360. # [16:16] <hsivonen> BenMillard: if you are browsing a huge webmail inbox, it could make sense to allow a grid widget declare its starting offset, though
  361. # [16:17] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  362. # [16:23] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  363. # [16:26] <BenMillard> hsivonen, that makes sense. information like that can help everyone, so it might even be visible: "Messages 200-250 of 1,000"
  364. # [16:27] <hsivonen> BenMillard: I suggest posting your points about the setsize/posinset stuff to public-pfwg-comments
  365. # [16:28] <BenMillard> okies, I'll do that now
  366. # [16:30] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@library.xwi.xmission.com)
  367. # [16:32] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  368. # [16:35] * parcelbrat is now known as jredville
  369. # [16:38] * Quits: cpst (n=Cameron@gepetto.cgl.uwaterloo.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  370. # [16:38] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-1-178-197.area1.spcsdns.net)
  371. # [16:52] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  372. # [16:54] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  373. # [16:56] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  374. # [17:05] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  375. # [17:06] * Quits: jredville (n=parcelbr@library.xwi.xmission.com) (Connection timed out)
  376. # [17:06] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  377. # [17:14] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@ip67-91-91-195.z91-91-67.customer.algx.net)
  378. # [17:16] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-706e44c486d36bb1)
  379. # [17:16] * Joins: qwert666__ (n=qwert666@acao225.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  380. # [17:18] <othermaciej> Lachy: I'm sure we have at least a couple, I'll ask around
  381. # [17:21] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@dsl093-034-068.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  382. # [17:21] <Lachy> othermaciej, thanks
  383. # [17:21] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@dsl093-034-068.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  384. # [17:23] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-63-199-241-42.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  385. # [17:27] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  386. # [17:35] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-706e44c486d36bb1) ("The computer fell asleep")
  387. # [17:39] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@eto8.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  388. # [17:39] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  389. # [17:39] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  390. # [17:44] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  391. # [17:58] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  392. # [18:05] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-a226af42bb4576dc)
  393. # [18:07] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  394. # [18:11] <BenMillard> I've sent feedback: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2008JanMar/0100.html
  395. # [18:11] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) (Client Quit)
  396. # [18:12] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  397. # [18:12] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  398. # [18:17] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  399. # [18:24] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  400. # [18:33] * Parts: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  401. # [18:34] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  402. # [18:37] * Quits: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-a226af42bb4576dc)
  403. # [18:43] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-bcdd9733edc6be26)
  404. # [18:44] * Quits: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-1-178-197.area1.spcsdns.net)
  405. # [18:46] * Parts: Camaban (n=adrianle@81.133.236.188)
  406. # [18:49] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  407. # [18:58] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  408. # [18:59] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  409. # [19:16] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Connection timed out)
  410. # [19:20] * Joins: cpst (i=cwzwaric@CPE001b6393a746-CM00407b8601cd.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  411. # [19:22] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  412. # [19:23] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  413. # [19:24] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  414. # [19:38] * Parts: cpst (i=cwzwaric@CPE001b6393a746-CM00407b8601cd.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  415. # [19:40] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  416. # [19:44] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  417. # [19:50] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-19a262f6faabddcc)
  418. # [19:51] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@rrdhcp72-394.redrover.cornell.edu)
  419. # [19:54] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  420. # [20:01] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.129)
  421. # [20:10] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  422. # [20:10] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  423. # [20:12] * Joins: andersca (n=andersca@nat/apple/x-72f5001214911928)
  424. # [20:17] * Quits: G0k (n=hmason@rrdhcp72-394.redrover.cornell.edu)
  425. # [20:23] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  426. # [20:23] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) (Client Quit)
  427. # [20:30] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  428. # [20:38] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  429. # [20:46] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  430. # [20:48] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  431. # [20:53] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  432. # [21:00] * Quits: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  433. # [21:02] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-19a262f6faabddcc) ("The computer fell asleep")
  434. # [21:02] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-bb4c9bbe0d47fedb)
  435. # [21:03] * Joins: csarven- (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  436. # [21:05] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  437. # [21:06] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-7-99-191.area7.spcsdns.net)
  438. # [21:07] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Nick collision from services.)
  439. # [21:07] * csarven- is now known as csarven
  440. # [21:15] * Quits: tommorris_ (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  441. # [21:16] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-204-78-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  442. # [21:17] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  443. # [21:18] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-bb4c9bbe0d47fedb) (Success)
  444. # [21:23] * Quits: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  445. # [21:25] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  446. # [21:34] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-204-78-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  447. # [21:38] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  448. # [21:38] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  449. # [21:39] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  450. # [21:46] * Parts: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-7-99-191.area7.spcsdns.net)
  451. # [22:08] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com) ("Core Breach")
  452. # [22:09] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
  453. # [22:18] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  454. # [22:23] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  455. # [22:25] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  456. # [22:28] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-204-78-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  457. # [22:33] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  458. # [22:39] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-204-78-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  459. # [22:41] * Quits: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1) (Connection timed out)
  460. # [22:50] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  461. # [22:50] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-b2102183fb56f837)
  462. # [23:00] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-7-99-191.area7.spcsdns.net)
  463. # [23:02] * Quits: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-7-99-191.area7.spcsdns.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  464. # [23:02] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@205.127.247.229)
  465. # [23:03] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  466. # [23:06] * Joins: parcelbrat_ (n=parcelbr@99-204-164-228.area1.spcsdns.net)
  467. # [23:11] * Parts: parcelbrat_ (n=parcelbr@99-204-164-228.area1.spcsdns.net)
  468. # [23:12] * Joins: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  469. # [23:17] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Remote closed the connection)
  470. # [23:22] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  471. # [23:23] * Quits: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@205.127.247.229) (Connection timed out)
  472. # [23:32] * Joins: nickshanks (n=nickshan@p57A37DD4.dip.t-dialin.net)
  473. # [23:34] * Quits: roc (n=roc@124-171-48-187.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  474. # [23:37] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  475. # [23:44] * Joins: deane (n=dean@202-74-212-39.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  476. # [23:45] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-1-30-53.area1.spcsdns.net)
  477. # [23:45] * Parts: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@70-1-30-53.area1.spcsdns.net)
  478. # [23:48] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-148-24-200.range86-148.btcentralplus.com)
  479. # [23:48] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-130.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  480. # [23:49] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  481. # [23:50] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  482. # Session Close: Sat Mar 29 00:00:00 2008

The end :)