/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-01 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 01 00:00:00 2008
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:03] <annevk> hmm, http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344298
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8. # [00:11] <jgraham> Hixie: "The tools will save us" could work if the tool in question is the browser itself
9. # [00:12] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
10. # [00:12] <annevk> for some things tools do work, such as PNG, JPEG, and GIF
11. # [00:13] <annevk> (though when I need simple graphics I find myself using <canvas>, to be fair)
12. # [00:13] <jgraham> specifically I think having byzantine rules for start tag inference in a format that is partially XML is a bad idea
13. # [00:13] <annevk> HTML is "partially" XML
14. # [00:13] <jgraham> On the other hand treating math like a particularly complex microformat might work OK
15. # [00:14] <jgraham> annevk: There is really nothing in HTML to compare to the idea of converting <mrow>1 + 2</mrow> to three elements
16. # [00:15] * annevk is satisfied with the <tbody> sample
17. # [00:15] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-cfd7adb17dacfe85) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18. # [00:15] <jgraham> Do you think authors even know that <tbody> exists?
19. # [00:16] <annevk> I don't think they do and I don't think it's much of a problem
20. # [00:16] <annevk> It started being a problem when people started using XHTML
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22. # [00:16] <annevk> but then XHTML is a lot more complex anyway
23. # [00:17] <hsivonen> annevk: tbody is a problem with child selectors and DOM scripting, too, if you don't know it is there
24. # [00:17] <jgraham> Right so it's not really comparable, unless you can come up with a maths format where e.g. <mo> is _never_ needed
25. # [00:17] <annevk> I don't think authors will know or care that <mo> is there
26. # [00:17] <annevk> they just want to write down the Math and have it look decently
27. # [00:17] <Dashiva> hsivonen: I can't find a single page saying anything about what smash actually is, just how awesome it's going to be.
28. # [00:17] <hsivonen> I'd just go with MathML elements without start tag inference and leave it to authors to choose their favorite tools to save them
29. # [00:18] <annevk> I'd like my text editor to save me :)
30. # [00:18] <hsivonen> what does OpenAjax Alliance actually do?
31. # [00:18] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202-183-124-126.cust.voipex.com.au)
32. # [00:18] <annevk> i've no idea, but they discuss stuff
33. # [00:18] <Dashiva> It sounds like something MS started :)
34. # [00:19] * annevk wonders if anyone else just got an e-mail he didn't
35. # [00:19] <annevk> s/anyone/everyone/
36. # [00:20] <hsivonen> annevk: I pasted a URL a while ago: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/woolf?entry=secure_mashups_with_smash?ca=drs-bl
37. # [00:21] * annevk finds http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/Steering_Committee
38. # [00:22] <annevk> "NEXAWEB/Coach Wei" was pushing XAL at some point in the W3C WAF WG...
39. # [00:27] <hsivonen> XAL?
40. # [00:29] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/dfaui/
41. # [00:29] <othermaciej> Dashiva: IBM started it I think
42. # [00:32] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks.
43. # [00:32] * hsivonen thinks HTML5 possibly with the XUL flex model in CSS is the right way forward
44. # [00:32] <sayrer> yeah, need some box model
45. # [00:33] <annevk> yeah, who's going to do that?
46. # [00:33] <sayrer> I think someone at Mozilla is going to
47. # [00:33] <annevk> awesomeness
48. # [00:33] <sayrer> but I forget who that is
49. # [00:33] <annevk> there are some alternate proposals for grid layouts but i think i prefer flexbox
50. # [00:34] <annevk> others being http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-css3-layout-20070809/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-css3-grid-20070905/
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52. # [00:35] <hsivonen> nn
53. # [00:35] <Hixie> who's the guy dan got to add the issues to the html issues list again?
54. # [00:36] <annevk> i think he's more busy now
55. # [00:36] <Hixie> shawn?
56. # [00:36] <annevk> yeah
57. # [00:36] <annevk> medero or so
58. # [00:36] <annevk> yeah, that's it
59. # [00:36] <annevk> (fwiw, the style attr issue was added by jgraham already)
60. # [00:38] <Hixie> ah ok
61. # [00:38] <Hixie> nevermind then
62. # [00:46] <jgraham> Hixie: You can add issues to the issues list fwiw
63. # [00:46] <Hixie> yes
64. # [00:46] <Hixie> i don't especially like doing so though :-)
65. # [00:46] <jgraham> OK
66. # [00:46] <Hixie> <mprescripts> is a weird element
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69. # [00:48] <annevk> where our you locked with the MathML stuff btw?
70. # [00:48] <annevk> or did you find a way to move forward?
71. # [00:50] <Hixie> i have the following problems:
72. # [00:51] <Hixie> * mathml content + presentation involves redundancy that i want to avoid, due to the known issues of the antipattern of including data twice
73. # [00:51] <Hixie> * presentational mathml is way too verbose too hand-author sanely
74. # [00:51] <Hixie> * some people want both mathml content + presentation to be included in html5
75. # [00:52] <Hixie> * some people want no inferred tags in anything we add to html5
76. # [00:53] <Philip`> (PNG is way too hard to hand-author too)
77. # [00:53] <annevk> PNG is pretty easy with <canvas> nowadays :)
78. # [00:53] <Philip`> Okay, JPEG then :-p
79. # [00:53] <annevk> Hixie, it seems only the first two are real problems
80. # [00:53] <Hixie> * non-mathml-syntax solutions, e.g. ASCIIMathML, are incomplete compared to MathML, and would require really hard work to support in teh html5 parser
81. # [00:54] <annevk> oh, that too :)
82. # [00:54] * jgraham invokes the priority of constituencies :)
83. # [00:54] <Hixie> so i don't know what to do
84. # [00:55] <Hixie> jgraham: ASCIIMathML is pretty non-intuitive for anything non-trivial
85. # [00:56] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
86. # [00:59] <jgraham> Hixie: it doesn't look so bad to me; at least from the point of view of people who already know LaTeX
87. # [01:01] <Hixie> the issues with doing something like ASCIIMathML or LaTeX are:
88. # [01:01] <Hixie> * very complicated parsing rules, far more so than anything so far in html
89. # [01:01] <Hixie> * isn't MathML, so we lose any kind of even remotely sane round-tripping
90. # [01:01] <Hixie> * very unclear how to style it
91. # [01:02] <Hixie> * incomplete compared to MathML
92. # [01:02] <jgraham> Hixie: It has to map into a MathML DOM internally
93. # [01:02] <Hixie> right, that's assumed
94. # [01:02] <Hixie> that's actually where most of the problems come from
95. # [01:03] <jgraham> I think that makes the round-tripping no worse than the almost-MathML-as-XML case
96. # [01:04] <Hixie> if we use mathml, you can do this:
97. # [01:04] <annevk> would the processing be on the tokenizer level or post processing during the parser stage?
98. # [01:04] <Philip`> Hixie: I'd guess http://www.whatwg.org/charter.pl should be updated
99. # [01:04] <jgraham> The styling thing isn't so critical for Maths but it can be solved using Firebug
100. # [01:04] <Hixie> use a tool, paste into text/html, right-click and choose mathml source, paste into mathml tool, repeat
101. # [01:05] <Hixie> if we use a mathml incompatible syntax, we lose that
102. # [01:05] <Hixie> i really don't think we should be relying on tools to solve any of these problems
103. # [01:05] <Hixie> we have historically seen that that simply doesn't work
104. # [01:05] <Hixie> Philip`: thanks
105. # [01:06] <jgraham> I tend to agree but I think MathML is so bad to hand author that you need to have a tool either for the authoring or for some other aspect of the process
106. # [01:07] <Hixie> i've hand-written mathml
107. # [01:07] <Hixie> if we could simplify it a bit, it would be ok
108. # [01:07] <jgraham> Me too. That's what I base my position on :)
109. # [01:07] <Hixie> but people are against simplifying it
110. # [01:08] <annevk> the copy source past into tool case will not work even if we don't simplify MathML at all
111. # [01:08] <jgraham> Hixie: I think you underestimate the disconnect between MathML and what ordinary authors are capable of
112. # [01:09] <Hixie> annevk: mozilla already supports exporting a mathml tree extracted from the dom
113. # [01:09] <Hixie> annevk: i agree that in general the tools will need html parsers to do that though, at which point the only disconnect is the serialiser
114. # [01:09] <Hixie> jgraham: if they can learn latex, they can learn mathml
115. # [01:10] <Hixie> jgraham: it's just more verbose, not more complicated
116. # [01:10] <jgraham> Hixie: If they know LaTeX and MathML is harder why would they bother?
117. # [01:10] <Hixie> i do not think that the number of latex authors outweighs the number of mathml authors over the next 30 years.
118. # [01:10] <gsnedders> Hixie: what way did you want me to help with indexing?
119. # [01:11] <Hixie> gsnedders: nothing yet :-)
120. # [01:11] <gsnedders> Hixie: s/did/will/
121. # [01:11] <gsnedders> :)
122. # [01:11] <jgraham> I could be wrong but I find that hard to believe
123. # [01:11] <Hixie> gsnedders: but eventually, if your tool can handle it, it'd be cool to have it autogenerate tables of elements, attributes, and that kind of thing
124. # [01:11] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, that would be :)
125. # [01:12] <jgraham> I can't imagine any of the academics I know learning MathML if they can use LaTeX instead
126. # [01:12] <annevk> that depends on whether or not we do the right thing with MathML :p
127. # [01:12] <jgraham> Even if the result ends up as MathML they will use LateX->MathML
128. # [01:12] <Hixie> jgraham: that's fine
129. # [01:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: I couldn't move to anything from LaTeX, maths languages are too complex and not really worth learning another
130. # [01:13] <Hixie> jgraham: but i believe if we put mathml into html, that going forwards we will see many people grow up on mathml
131. # [01:13] <jgraham> Hixie: That's a tools will ave us argument :)
132. # [01:13] <jgraham> s/ave/save/
133. # [01:14] <Hixie> jgraham: we're not putting actual latex into text/html, so if these authors aren't willing to do anything but latex, they will either use tools or won't use html (either of which are fine)
134. # [01:15] <jgraham> Hixie: But it prevents people from starting to use it seriously
135. # [01:15] <jgraham> (if they won't use html)
136. # [01:15] <jgraham> So everyone will always have to learn LaTeX to be published
137. # [01:16] <Hixie> jgraham: i've lost track of the antecedent of "it" and "they"
138. # [01:16] <gsnedders> they are wrong, it is right.
139. # [01:17] <Hixie> jgraham: if your primary use case is making people go from a latex workflow to a text/html workflow, and you have the constraint that people won't learn anything but latex, there is only one solution, and that's to allow latex in text/html. agreed?
140. # [01:18] <Hixie> (impressive. the only conflict between mathml and html in terms of tag names is <image>. not bad for hundreds of tag names.)
141. # [01:19] <jgraham> Hixie: My primary use case is getting mathematics on the web to be usable. I believe this requires that people who currently use LaTeX can easilly transition either their skills or their content to the web, which I think implies either judicious use of tools or a LaTeX-like syntax
142. # [01:19] <jgraham> (but not necessarily exactly LaTeX)
143. # [01:20] <Hixie> i don't understand why you believe that latex authors who are not willing to learn non-latex syntax form the primary relevant group of authors
144. # [01:21] <Hixie> it seems like there is an unstated assumption in your argument
145. # [01:22] <h3h> any plans to specify .pathname, .host, .hostname, .port, etc. on <a> elements?
146. # [01:22] <jgraham> Because I presume that the primary group of authors are similar to the people who currently publish mathematics, who by-and-large use LaTeX
147. # [01:22] <annevk> h3h, yes, they'll implement the Location interface in due course
148. # [01:22] <Hixie> h3h: yeah, i just haven't hooked it up yet
149. # [01:22] <h3h> neat
150. # [01:22] <Hixie> they won't implement Location
151. # [01:22] <jgraham> My experience with these people is that they are not very interested in learning new tools for old tasks
152. # [01:22] <annevk> oh
153. # [01:22] <h3h> there are some un-fun inconsistencies between browsers
154. # [01:22] <Hixie> the attributes have been factored out
155. # [01:23] <Hixie> same idea though
156. # [01:23] <Hixie> jgraham: i agree. but i don't understand why you think that population is the main one.
157. # [01:23] <annevk> oh right
158. # [01:23] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip5.unival.com) (".")
159. # [01:23] <Hixie> jgraham: in particular, i would have assumed that the many people who are yet to learn any syntax significantly outnumber the latex authors of today.
160. # [01:24] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
161. # [01:25] <jgraham> Hixie: I think those people will still have to learn LaTeX (to use in paper-based or PDF-based publications) and will not want to learn a second sntax that is significantly more complex
162. # [01:25] <jgraham> s/sntax/syntax/
163. # [01:25] <Hixie> jgraham: so why would they bother with html at all?
164. # [01:25] <Hixie> jgraham: put it this way. why do we need latex syntax for maths but not paragraphs?
165. # [01:26] <Hixie> and i really don't think that the majority of people writing maths on the web will be those publishing papers
166. # [01:26] <Hixie> i'd expect those publishing papers to be a minority
167. # [01:26] <jgraham> Hixie: Because HTML syntax or paragraphs isn't too bad. MathML syntax is orders of magnitude worse than LaTeX (which is already pretty annoying)
168. # [01:27] <jgraham> Hixie: It is true that sub-degree level mathematics is a rather different case
169. # [01:28] <jgraham> but expecting simpler maths to be published using a more complex syntax is not an obviously great idea
170. # [01:29] * jgraham -> bed
171. # [01:29] <jgraham> goodnight
172. # [01:29] <Hixie> jgraham: the long and short of it is that to address your use case we basically have to come up with a way to have the syntax of mathml in html be latex-compatible, which means significantly complex parsing rules, incomplete support for mathml, highly unintuitive styling and scripting behaviour, either freaky serialisation rules or no round-tripping behaviour, an inconsistent language, and trading in verbosity for complexity
173. # [01:29] <Hixie> nn
174. # [01:29] <Hixie> which i'm not sure really is a good trade
175. # [01:30] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
176. # [01:32] * Philip` wonders what that proof thing is called where you write a logical statement at the bottom then put a line above it and write the statements needed to prove the first one, and recurse upwards until you end up with axioms at the top
177. # [01:32] * Philip` then wonders if MathML can do that
178. # [01:32] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
179. # [01:33] <annevk> ah, yes, "URI decomposition attributes "
180. # [01:34] <othermaciej> Philip`: isn't that called a "proof"?
181. # [01:34] <othermaciej> (except that one might imagine starting from the axioms when writing your proof instead)
182. # [01:34] <annevk> it's a specific type of proof
183. # [01:35] <Philip`> It's a specific presentation for proofs, in particular
184. # [01:35] <othermaciej> well, whether you logically started from the bottom and wrote upwards or vice versa is not relevant when presenting the result
185. # [01:36] <othermaciej> so I guess it is only the lines between in particular that may be special
186. # [01:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think there's a bug in your mathml schema
187. # [01:38] <Hixie> hm, the dtd allows it too
188. # [01:38] <Hixie> that makes no sense
189. # [01:38] <Philip`> Oh, it's kind of like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_inference
190. # [01:38] <Hixie> <mrow><none/><mprescripts/></mrow> is surely invalid
191. # [01:38] <Philip`> with 'premises (horizontal line) conclusion', and '(horizontal line) axiom'
192. # [01:39] <Philip`> and it sounds like system that doesn't have any particularly compelling name
193. # [01:39] <Philip`> s/system that/that system/
194. # [01:40] <Hixie> wtf
195. # [01:40] <Hixie> the mathml dtd explicitly doesn't check certain things
196. # [01:40] <Hixie> that makes no sense to me
197. # [01:41] <gsnedders> Like what?
198. # [01:41] <Hixie> <mrow><none/><mprescripts/></mrow>
199. # [01:42] <gsnedders> heh.
200. # [01:42] * gsnedders ought to go sleep
201. # [01:42] * gsnedders is meant to be hill-walking tomorrow
202. # [01:43] <gsnedders> (despite having CFS)
203. # [01:43] <Hixie> wtf is:
204. # [01:43] <Hixie> <!ENTITY % prscrPresExpression " (%onePresExpression;,
205. # [01:43] <Hixie> ((%onePresExpression;|%none.qname;),(%onePresExpression;|%none.qname;))*,
206. # [01:43] <Hixie> (%mprescripts.qname;,
207. # [01:43] <Hixie> ((%onePresExpression;|%none.qname;),(%onePresExpression;|%none.qname;))*)?
208. # [01:43] <Hixie> )">
209. # [01:43] <Hixie> christ
210. # [01:43] <Hixie> some people
211. # [01:43] <gsnedders> SGML--
212. # [01:43] <gsnedders> XML--
213. # [01:43] <Hixie> would it kill them to write this without eighteen levels of redirection
214. # [01:44] <gsnedders> Yes, it wouldn.
215. # [01:44] <gsnedders> *would
216. # [01:44] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@adsl-75-5-98-41.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net)
217. # [01:44] <Hixie> what's the comma in sgml anyway
218. # [01:44] <Hixie> isn't in just "and"?
219. # [01:44] * Philip` wonders if you get much exponential growth when expanding out all the entities
220. # [01:44] <Hixie> oh, i get it
221. # [01:45] <Hixie> duh
222. # [01:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: followed
223. # [01:45] <Hixie> i forgot that the base had to be there
224. # [01:45] <Dashiva> Looks like they could've benefitted from + instead of just * :)
225. # [01:46] <Hixie> no, * is right
226. # [01:46] <Dashiva> Yeah, but x+ would be a lot easier on the eyes than xx*. Probably isn't part of the syntax, though.
227. # [01:47] <Hixie> it isn't xx*
228. # [01:47] <Dashiva> It's not?
229. # [01:47] <Hixie> it's "a (x x)* [b (x x)*]"
230. # [01:47] <Dashiva> Ah, I must've misread the parentheses
231. # [01:48] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
232. # [01:48] <Dashiva> I suppose that's another vote for the unreadability of it (or my level of sleepiness)
233. # [01:49] <gsnedders> ooo. April 1st now!
234. # [01:49] <Hixie> ok i think i have summarised the presentational mathml syntax
235. # [01:49] <Hixie> it's not tooooo bad
236. # [01:49] <gsnedders> Disclaimer: Anything I say today i probably bullshit.
237. # [01:49] <Dashiva> gsnedders: bullshit
238. # [01:49] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Don't fuck around with me, I'm a huge strong guy.
239. # [01:50] <gsnedders> 42 y/o policemen from Alabama.
240. # [01:50] <Dashiva> I'm looking forward to the whatwg blog post
241. # [01:50] <Dashiva> Hope this years' will be as good as the previous one
242. # [01:50] <Dashiva> *year's
243. # [01:50] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@87.102.14.81) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
244. # [01:50] * gsnedders gets dragged in to looking at suicide girls from a bug report.
245. # [01:50] <gsnedders> Ergh.
246. # [01:50] <gsnedders> (says the emo guy)
247. # [01:52] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/308
248. # [01:54] * gsnedders has to run off on call
249. # [01:56] <h3h> quick test case for the <a> properties: http://xkr.us/bugs/link-properties-test.html
250. # [01:57] <h3h> as it's written Firefox (2.0.x) is the only browser to pass
251. # [01:58] <Dashiva> What other browsers did you test?
252. # [01:58] <h3h> heh. IE doesn't even print results.
253. # [01:58] <h3h> Opera 9.2.x, IE 7, Safari 3.1
254. # [01:58] * Joins: roc (n=roc@59.167.238.168)
255. # [01:59] <h3h> though I just assume those expected values are correct
256. # [01:59] <h3h> in absence of a spec
257. # [02:00] <Dashiva> There's also the issue of the read/write-ability of the properties
258. # [02:00] <h3h> you can extend the test :)
259. # [02:00] <Dashiva> I did a test on these properties a while back, and the results were all over the place
260. # [02:00] <Dashiva> So I figured nobody uses them
261. # [02:01] <h3h> I did last week
262. # [02:01] <h3h> and had to come up with a normalization routine
263. # [02:01] * Joins: xShad0w_ (n=xShad0w@pool-72-83-145-52.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
264. # [02:01] <h3h> var path = '/' + el.pathname.replace(/^\/?([^\?]+).*/, "$1");
265. # [02:01] <Dashiva> I pondered using a strange URL for the testcase and copying that URL onto a link, so you could compare the location properties and link properties both in one
266. # [02:02] <h3h> yeah, it's worth testing them on the location object itself too
267. # [02:02] <Dashiva> h3h: http://dashiva.net/test/anchorprop.html
268. # [02:02] <h3h> but separate
269. # [02:02] <h3h> naet
270. # [02:02] <h3h> er neat
271. # [02:03] <h3h> Christmas in Opera :)
272. # [02:03] <Dashiva> Ayup
273. # [02:03] <Dashiva> It's odd that both opera and safari have switched host and hostname
274. # [02:04] <h3h> yeah, unsettling
275. # [02:04] <h3h> IE is almost all green...
276. # [02:04] <Dashiva> IE is all green, except that I decided the "correct" path had a / first
277. # [02:04] <Dashiva> So it gets two red for that
278. # [02:04] <h3h> yeah
279. # [02:05] <Dashiva> Safari treats the properties as readonly, opera allows writing but doesn't change href, IE and FF are fully readwrite
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281. # [02:06] <h3h> you have all sorts of fun tests in here
282. # [02:06] <Dashiva> And I can't tell you what half of them are supposed to test
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284. # [02:09] <Hixie> hm, here's one problem with implying <mo>, etc, open tags
285. # [02:09] <Hixie> <mrow> <mn> 1 + 2 </mn> </mrow> vs <mrow> 1 + 2 </mrow>
286. # [02:09] <Hixie> in the second one, we want the + to close the <mn>
287. # [02:09] <Hixie> but how do we know if the <mn> was implied or not?
288. # [02:10] <Hixie> that would be very different from past implication behaviour
289. # [02:10] <Hixie> maybe we should only allow end tags to be omitted
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291. # [02:10] <Dashiva> Is <mn>1+2</mn> meaningful?
292. # [02:11] <Hixie> probably not, but 1.2 is
293. # [02:12] <mpt> You're respecifying MathML now?
294. # [02:12] <Dashiva> Yeah, that's the problem with determining what's a decimal sign and what's an operator
295. # [02:13] <Hixie> mpt: we're looking into embedding mathml into text/html
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299. # [02:16] <Hixie> hey, we can omit end tags pretty well
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301. # [02:19] <Dashiva> Without requiring reparsing?
302. # [02:19] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Equations_in_HTML
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305. # [02:25] <tomg> http://www.neowin.net/news/main/08/03/31/microsoft-to-snub-standards-compliant-mode-in-ie8 :)
306. # [02:26] * Hixie turns off his news filters for the next 36 hours
307. # [02:26] <tomg> heh
308. # [02:27] <roc> Hixie, it seems slightly dodgy that you're putting multiple elements on a line in the new syntax but not the old syntax
309. # [02:28] <othermaciej> tomg: wait, does that mean switching the default back, or removing IE8 standards mode entirely?
310. # [02:28] <roc> uh
311. # [02:28] <roc> *that* would be exciting
312. # [02:28] <othermaciej> oh
313. # [02:28] * othermaciej realizes this post is probably meant for tomorrow
314. # [02:28] <tomg> it's rather lame that there's 03/31 in that article
315. # [02:29] <Hixie> roc: i'm writing them out the way i would write them out if i were writing using those syntaxeus
316. # [02:29] <tomg> it is tomorrow here, though
317. # [02:29] <tomg> i think.
318. # [02:30] <roc> I hate hate HATE this stupid day
319. # [02:30] <Hixie> roc: (reload)
320. # [02:30] <tomg> it'll be over soon.
321. # [02:31] <tomg> or less soon if it hasn't begun for you yet.
322. # [02:31] <roc> it has
323. # [02:32] <roc> but it's not over until California goes away
324. # [02:33] <Philip`> It won't be over for several days more, while people keep pointing you at fake news articles accidentally
325. # [02:34] <roc> it should be illegal
326. # [02:34] <Hixie> what should?
327. # [02:34] <Hixie> lying?
328. # [02:34] <Hixie> misleading people?
329. # [02:34] <Philip`> I think there are laws against making it illegal
330. # [02:34] <roc> pissing me off
331. # [02:34] <Hixie> heh
332. # [02:35] <Philip`> At least it's a potentially-useful reminder that not everything you read on the internet is true, regardless of what day it is
333. # [02:36] <Hixie> oh btw, if anyone is going to do a whatwg one, what i said last year still holds
334. # [02:36] <Hixie> you have to have a real blog post to post on the 2nd
335. # [02:36] <Dashiva> We could solve it like this: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29601
336. # [02:53] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/temp/mml is a list of all mathml2 elements, i think
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354. # [04:05] <Hixie> well
355. # [04:05] <Hixie> svg is sure going to be more of a pain
356. # [04:05] <Hixie> it has camelCase tag names
357. # [04:05] <Hixie> and 6 tag name conflicts
358. # [04:06] <Hixie> i guess we can make <a> automatically end up in the right namespace
359. # [04:06] <Hixie> based on the parent element
360. # [04:06] <Hixie> <font> is more of an issue though
361. # [04:06] <Hixie> oh wait, that's to define a font
362. # [04:07] <Hixie> maybe we can just throw all of that out in the text/html variant
363. # [04:07] <Hixie> <script> and <style> can just use the right namespace automagically
364. # [04:07] <Hixie> that leaves <title> and <image>
365. # [04:08] <Hixie> so. tempting. to fix svg.
366. # [04:11] <Hixie> christ. svg tiny 1.2 has only 47 elements to svg 1.1's 81, yet manages to have 2 extra tag name conflicts
367. # [04:12] <othermaciej> SVG "Tiny"
368. # [04:12] <othermaciej> "tiny" like a mob nickname
369. # [04:13] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/script.html#HandlerElement
370. # [04:13] <Hixie> that seems like something that as a spec editor, if i was writing it, it would immediately raise big red flags
371. # [04:14] <Hixie> "in the new and smaller version of this language, you must make your documents must more complex"
372. # [04:16] <Hixie> svg 1.1 u svg 1.2 has 92 element types
373. # [04:16] <Hixie> with 9 name clashes
374. # [04:17] <Hixie> svg is as bad as html
375. # [04:18] <Hixie> it has camelCase, hyphenated-words, half-acronym tag names (e.g. hkern), full acronym tag names (e.g. svg), abbreviated words (e.g. defs), combinations of abbreviated and hyphenated (definition-src)
376. # [04:18] <Hixie> etc
377. # [04:19] <Hixie> definition-src is especially funny because there's an element <defs> so they've already shortened "definition" once, but "src", which is shorter than "definition", is the word that gets shortened
378. # [04:19] <heycam`> :)
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380. # [04:20] <heycam`> tho definition-src was probably chosen to match the css descriptor name
381. # [04:21] <Hixie> which one?
382. # [04:22] <Hixie> it's love-hate relationship with svg is one of the biggest annoyances with svg
383. # [04:22] <Hixie> half the time it pretends css doesn't exist, and the other half of the time, it relies on it
384. # [04:22] <Hixie> while simultaneously breaking it (unitless numbers anyone)
385. # [04:22] <heycam`> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/fonts.html#descdef-definition-src ?
386. # [04:23] <Hixie> oh christ, svg adopted the disaster that is css2's fonts stuff?
387. # [04:23] <heycam`> in retrospect yes the use of unitless numbers for font-size was needlessly incompatible with css
388. # [04:23] <heycam`> but tiny fixed that to some extent
389. # [04:23] <Hixie> hey i complained about that issue before svg 1.0 was in CR, iirc
390. # [04:24] <Hixie> so it wasn't just a mistake in retrospect :-)
391. # [04:25] <heycam`> did css 2.1 drop that font stuff? in lieu of the css3 font stuff?
392. # [04:25] <Hixie> yeah, on the basis that it sucked and nobody implemented it anyway
393. # [04:25] <Hixie> i notice SVG 1.1's definition of definition-src is just as worthless as CSS2's, heh
394. # [04:25] <Hixie> i'd love to see the tests that proved interop enough to exit CR for _that_ feature :-)
395. # [04:26] <heycam`> jet:~/work/cvs/w3/WWW/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.1/svg $ grep 'definition-src' * | wc -l
396. # [04:26] <heycam`> 0
397. # [04:26] <Hixie> i rest my case :-)
398. # [04:27] <Hixie> i really don't know where to begin on allowing svg in text/html
399. # [04:27] <heycam`> i don't disagree that the 1.1 test suite was lacking
400. # [04:27] <Hixie> mathml is easy compared to this, heh
401. # [04:27] <heycam`> what's the toughest problem? the camel case stuff?
402. # [04:27] <Hixie> no that's trivial
403. # [04:27] <Hixie> it's the name clashes that pose the biggest problem
404. # [04:27] <Hixie> that and the fact that there's so many elements
405. # [04:27] <heycam`> svg:title vs html:title?
406. # [04:28] <Hixie> for instance
407. # [04:28] <heycam`> i'm against having tricky tag implication for svg
408. # [04:28] <heycam`> it's difficult enough for me to know which tags are implied for html
409. # [04:29] <Hixie> the clashing elements are: a audio font image script style textArea title video
410. # [04:29] <Hixie> i don't think tag inference makes sense for svg
411. # [04:29] <heycam`> if only we had some sort of... namespacing mechanism? :)
412. # [04:29] <Hixie> namespaces are dumb
413. # [04:29] <Hixie> in this kind of context
414. # [04:29] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@64-73-235-34.static-ip.telepacific.net)
415. # [04:29] <heycam`> i don't think namespaces are dumb. there may be aspects of xml namespaces that are dumb.
416. # [04:29] <Hixie> svg's verbosity problem isn't in the number of elements
417. # [04:29] <othermaciej> namespaces are neat, xml namespaces suck eggs
418. # [04:30] <Hixie> namespaces make sense for programmers
419. # [04:30] <annevk> namespaces on the Web don't make sense
420. # [04:30] <Hixie> they are dumb in a document authoring format
421. # [04:30] <heycam`> i do agree that their promise of magical extensibility doesn't really fly
422. # [04:31] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-2abe1ffc53081206)
423. # [04:31] <annevk> hehe, public-cdf...
424. # [04:31] <Hixie> svg's main problem is it has too many features
425. # [04:31] <Hixie> i mean wtf is <altGlyphItem>
426. # [04:31] <Hixie> there is _so_ no need for that on the web
427. # [04:31] <othermaciej_> namespaces as a prefix with collision avoidance by registry or convention would be fine
428. # [04:31] <heycam`> there is some weirdness in there with the altglyph stuff
429. # [04:31] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.105.99) (Nick collision from services.)
430. # [04:31] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
431. # [04:31] <heycam`> underdescribed in the fonts chapter
432. # [04:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: you just made me implement alt glyphs, you bastard!!!
433. # [04:32] <othermaciej> *now* you tell me it's an excess feature
434. # [04:32] <heycam`> and probably not solving any real solutions
435. # [04:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: blame heycam :-)
436. # [04:32] <heycam`> altGlyph isn't too bad, alyGlyphItem is probably unnecessary
437. # [04:32] <Hixie> i wonder if we can get away with removing many of these features in the text/html serialisation
438. # [04:32] <heycam`> i don't think many svg-oriented people would be in favour of that
439. # [04:33] <Hixie> i don't expect any of this to be popular with svg people
440. # [04:33] <Hixie> just like i'd hate it for the svg group to take something like text layout and make a tiny subset of that and put it in svg 1.2
441. # [04:34] <shepazu> I don't think HTML5 needs to specify anything about vector graphics or math... that work's been done elsewhere... HTML5 just needs to define a point of extensibility
442. # [04:35] <Hixie> sadly, nobody has yet suggested a plausible extension mechanism that doesn't involve hardcoding a bunch of tag names
443. # [04:35] <Hixie> (which is the approach i'm therefore taking)
444. # [04:35] <heycam`> Hixie, is that because of the naming conflicts?
445. # [04:35] * othermaciej wonders what Hixie will come up with for XBL
446. # [04:35] <othermaciej> (if anything)
447. # [04:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't plan to solve that problem
448. # [04:36] <Hixie> heycam`: partly
449. # [04:36] <Hixie> heycam`: the biggest problem is that there are many html documents out there today that use all matter of weird tag names
450. # [04:36] <shepazu> simply having an element like <ext> </ext> would seem to solve the problem nicely...
451. # [04:36] <heycam`> or the IE <xml> element?
452. # [04:36] <shepazu> (or some tag that isn't known to have conflicts)
453. # [04:36] <othermaciej> why not the IE <xml> element?
454. # [04:36] <othermaciej> as an escape to XML parsing?
455. # [04:37] <othermaciej> not that I love that
456. # [04:37] <othermaciej> but I wonder what fails to work about it
457. # [04:37] <shepazu> (rather, is known not to have conflicts)
458. # [04:37] <heycam`> othermaciej, yeah
459. # [04:37] <Hixie> heycam`: so for example, if we said "when you see <ext> you just start parsing elements using this particular process instead" then any pages that happen to hit that would stop working
460. # [04:37] <othermaciej> (other than IE assuming that content won't render)
461. # [04:37] <heycam`> you can't nest html5 inside there, at least
462. # [04:37] <heycam`> sorry i mean you can't nest html5 with another <xml> element in there
463. # [04:37] <heycam`> since it has <script>-like parsing
464. # [04:37] <shepazu> right
465. # [04:37] <heycam`> but apart from that, it seems ok to me
466. # [04:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: well apart from it being incompatible with IE, which is a blocker problem, it also prevents you from doing things like nested content
467. # [04:38] * shepazu didn't know about IE's <xml> element
468. # [04:38] <Hixie> which is also a blocker problem
469. # [04:38] <Hixie> (it's also not xml-compatible parsing in IE)
470. # [04:38] <Hixie> (though i forget the details)
471. # [04:38] <heycam`> Hixie, but what about having an svg context, where once you're inside an <svg> element, you can prefer the svg elements?
472. # [04:38] <shepazu> Hixie: what about working to define <foreignElement> and the like, for nested content?
473. # [04:38] <othermaciej> IE's <xml> doesn't parse as XML? yuck :-(
474. # [04:38] <heycam`> surely there wouldn't be many pages that randomly use <altGlyph> but also inside an <svg> element, e.g.
475. # [04:39] <othermaciej> shepazu: a google for "xml data islands" should find it
476. # [04:39] <Hixie> heycam`: that's basically what i'm looking at doing
477. # [04:39] <heycam`> Hixie, cool that should be useful information then
478. # [04:39] <Hixie> but for what it's worth, the devil in all of these suggestions is in the details
479. # [04:39] <shepazu> othermaciej: yes, just did that :)
480. # [04:39] <shepazu> that's how ASV did inline SVG in IE
481. # [04:39] <heycam`> Hixie, did you mean doing a study on the use of coincidentally svg-named elements are used in html?
482. # [04:39] <Hixie> i've looked at many ideas similar to what all of you are proposing here, but always run into blocker issues when trying to define the details
483. # [04:39] <heycam`> Hixie, or having an svg context for parsing?
484. # [04:40] <Hixie> the latter
485. # [04:40] <heycam`> ok
486. # [04:40] <shepazu> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_XML_Data_Islands_in_Mozilla
487. # [04:40] <heycam`> Hixie, it'd be great if you could document these problems somewhere (wiki?), since it seems to be a suggestion that a few people come up with
488. # [04:40] <heycam`> and these people (including me) probably don't know about the details that may make it fail to work
489. # [04:41] <Hixie> that would be a lot of work
490. # [04:41] <othermaciej> you can also smuggle XML in a <script> element
491. # [04:41] <heycam`> but you've done the work, right? of determining why it doesn't work?
492. # [04:41] * shepazu wonders if IE itself might change its behavior
493. # [04:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: can you help us figure out why it doesn't work, so we can record for posterity?
494. # [04:41] <Hixie> heycam: i haven't written it down, most of my design work is done in the shower
495. # [04:41] <shepazu> they seem rather eager to move on in some cases
496. # [04:41] <othermaciej> I'd be happy to write it up
497. # [04:41] <heycam`> Hixie needs an electronic whiteboard in his shower...
498. # [04:42] <shepazu> Hixie: use soap to write on the shower curtain :)
499. # [04:42] <othermaciej> data islands expect their content to form its own DOM document
500. # [04:42] <othermaciej> at least in IE
501. # [04:42] <othermaciej> perhaps that is the blocker
502. # [04:42] <heycam`> othermaciej, yeah i did notice that (a #document node in the live dom viewer)
503. # [04:43] <shepazu> IE is changing its behavior in other ways, such as the event flow
504. # [04:43] <othermaciej> wait, it makes the document node a child of an element??
505. # [04:43] <heycam`> yeah
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507. # [04:43] <othermaciej> !!!!@!#$%!#%
508. # [04:43] <heycam`> :)
509. # [04:43] <heycam`> conceivably there is content out there that calls getElementById() on that document node too, so you'd need to be careful if that were changed
510. # [04:43] <shepazu> well, if <xml> won't fly, then maybe another element name
511. # [04:44] * othermaciej rubs his eyes and blinks in disbelief
512. # [04:44] <shepazu> <xdi>
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514. # [04:44] <heycam`> shepazu, there is the <script> thing that othermaciej mentioned (and that rubys was using at one point)
515. # [04:44] <heycam`> seems a bit of a hack though, with that name
516. # [04:44] <othermaciej> <script> is your next-best bet, but then you can't nest script elements
517. # [04:44] <heycam`> same as <xml>
518. # [04:44] <shepazu> yeah, I didn't like that solution
519. # [04:44] <Hixie> feel free to send fully concrete proposals (down to the level of fixing the tokeniser and tree construction parts of the spec) to the mailing-list. if you manage to get it to that level of detail without running into problems, then it's worth considering. i haven't succeeded in finding any generic mechanism that survives that level of detail.
520. # [04:45] <Hixie> and no offense, but i really don't want to walk you all through your ideas until we find the problems :-)
521. # [04:45] <heycam`> Hixie, sure but i think there are few people on the list who are well versed in exactly how the tokeniser and tree construction works
522. # [04:45] <shepazu> I think this is worth the SVG WG looking into
523. # [04:46] <shepazu> hsivonen might could help
524. # [04:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: I believe you that there are problems but I want to record what they are (I am satisfied that I understand the problem with <xml>)
525. # [04:46] <othermaciej> hsivonen could probably help flesh out ideas, yes
526. # [04:46] <heycam`> there is certainly a lot of knowledge that you, othermaciej, hsivonen, etc. have about html parsing and the reasons for things having to be a certain way that aren't documented, and that many other people on the group don't know
527. # [04:46] <othermaciej> actually <xml> is adequate to be an inline solution for XML, other than the fucking insanity of making a document node a child node
528. # [04:46] <othermaciej> er
529. # [04:46] <othermaciej> for XBL2
530. # [04:47] <annevk> HTML parsing is pretty well documented now :)
531. # [04:47] <heycam`> annevk, but not the reasons for various things
532. # [04:47] <othermaciej> heycam`: I'm happy to help people step through proposals enough to flesh them out
533. # [04:47] <annevk> is there a wiki page with brief proposals?
534. # [04:47] <annevk> yeah, I'm willing to help pointing out issues too
535. # [04:47] <othermaciej> I don't understand IE's namespaces enough to totally get why using that won't work as a pseudo-extensibility hack, I guess probably the fact that Office inserts crazy namespaced tags
536. # [04:48] <othermaciej> annevk: we should probably start a wiki page with proposals and their known showstopper problems
537. # [04:48] <heycam`> othermaciej, that'd be great
538. # [04:48] <othermaciej> (perhaps smart people will think of a way around some of those problems)
539. # [04:48] <annevk> or don't see the problem...
540. # [04:49] <annevk> but i'm fine with doing this :)
541. # [04:49] <heycam`> if they don't see the problem, after viewing the wiki page, it's probably because there's some assumption that they and you don't share :)
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543. # [04:49] <heycam`> like, that xml sucks or something :)
544. # [04:50] <annevk> i'll try to refrain from using that argument :p
545. # [04:50] <heycam`> heh
546. # [04:50] <heycam`> tbh i think that is the cause of a lot of the conflict between people in the group
547. # [04:50] <heycam`> not xml in particular
548. # [04:50] <othermaciej> annevk: even if it just stops people from bringing up solutions with known flaws, that would be a useful service
549. # [04:50] <heycam`> but unstated assumptions about what is "good" or "bad"
550. # [04:51] <annevk> it seems that the math guys mostly find the roundtripping to be problematic
551. # [04:51] <othermaciej> I don't think Hixie would be looking at SVG at all if he was going solely by his own aesthetic preferences
552. # [04:51] <annevk> they don't really care what the final syntax looks like I get the feeling
553. # [04:51] <shepazu> I suggest the <aiui> element
554. # [04:52] <Hixie> othermaciej: no kidding
555. # [04:52] <heycam`> many people probably assume that it'd be easy to stick an extensibility point into html to allow inline svg etc.
556. # [04:52] <heycam`> as shepazu suggested
557. # [04:53] <heycam`> and so they probably don't think it's a big deal for you (as editor)
558. # [04:53] <heycam`> s/it's/it should be/
559. # [04:53] <heycam`> but if the devil really is in the details, well then hopefully this wiki page can help
560. # [04:53] <othermaciej> I must admit I do not know of a plausible generic extensibility point that would work for cut&pasting of totally as-is SVG
561. # [04:53] <Hixie> (actually, going all the way to tokeniser/tree construction is probably unnecessary -- just some examples of source markup and how they should parse would be enough in most cases)
562. # [04:53] <heycam`> othermaciej, sure, at least just because you can have whacky namespace prefixes
563. # [04:53] <heycam`> defined outside the svg fragment
564. # [04:54] <othermaciej> heycam`: that's not the kind of problem I am thinking of
565. # [04:54] <othermaciej> I mean more like the just-discussed problems with <xml>
566. # [04:54] * shepazu agrees that part of the larger solution is working with SVG authoring tools to sanitize and sanify SVG output
567. # [04:54] <othermaciej> and the fact that using <script>, you can't nest <script> tags, which could be a bummer for inline SVG certainly
568. # [04:54] <heycam`> othermaciej, it not being able to contain another <xml>?
569. # [04:54] <othermaciej> heycam`: no, the fact that it parses as a document node
570. # [04:54] <heycam`> othermaciej, yeah that's a good point (about <script>)
571. # [04:54] <othermaciej> in IE
572. # [04:54] <heycam`> othermaciej, oh, that too :)
573. # [04:55] <shepazu> for instance, there's really no need for all those crazy Inkscape namespaces
574. # [04:55] <othermaciej> and that IE's namespaces probably can't be emulated due to office-generated HTML inserting <o:p> tags
575. # [04:55] <othermaciej> or whatever
576. # [04:55] <othermaciej> which non-IE browsers need to just ignore
577. # [04:55] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Diagrams_in_HTML
578. # [04:55] <Hixie> add examples to that page
579. # [04:55] <heycam`> othermaciej, that office namespace stuff sounds like a good candidate for wiki-ing up too
580. # [04:55] <shepazu> I wonder if the MS Office Live people would be interested in working on this problem?
581. # [04:55] <othermaciej> heycam`: I don't know all the details on that one
582. # [04:55] <othermaciej> (annevk might)
583. # [04:56] <othermaciej> shepazu: sadly there is a shitload of Office-generated content on the web already
584. # [04:56] <othermaciej> some office fake namespaced tags are more common than some real html tags
585. # [04:56] <shepazu> yeah, but I think they are starting to take a different approach
586. # [04:56] <Hixie> i expect lots of examples of how you want to have a generic mechanism on that page when i get back from dinner. :-) http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Diagrams_in_HTML
587. # [04:56] <shepazu> lol... will do, Hixie
588. # [04:56] <heycam`> Hixie, i don't have the bandwidth to do that today unfortunately. maybe on the weekend.
589. # [04:56] <heycam`> s/today/this week/
590. # [04:56] <othermaciej> I gotta go
591. # [04:57] * shepazu hopes Hixie has a long dinner.... like, 2 weeks
592. # [04:57] <heycam`> heh
593. # [04:57] <othermaciej> I will write up problems with some generic "new vocabulary" approaches later if I can
594. # [04:57] <Hixie> i really hope to have this written up and specced by friday
595. # [04:57] <heycam`> hmm
596. # [04:57] <Hixie> i've been stuck on this for several weeks already
597. # [04:57] <Hixie> (for what it's worth)
598. # [04:58] <annevk> hmm, the MathML stuff digressed a bit, now I have to learn it better to write down 2+2=5
599. # [04:58] <Hixie> of course, if people find amazing ways of doing this that work better than what the spec ends up being, it can always change
600. # [04:58] <othermaciej> I do kind of like the aria- and data- namespace-by-convention approach for attributes
601. # [04:58] <annevk> though given the arguments from JD it's prolly ok
602. # [04:58] <heycam`> Hixie, in essence what will the spec end up being if there is no other suggestion?
603. # [04:58] <Hixie> heycam`: for svg? i dunno
604. # [04:58] <annevk> data- is toaly nice
605. # [04:58] <Hixie> heycam`: probably a hard-coded list of tag names and attribute names
606. # [04:58] <shepazu> does mathml have a way of validating evaluated content? that would be interesting
607. # [04:59] <Hixie> heycam`: and special rules for each one
608. # [04:59] <othermaciej> data- will be very nice for microformats
609. # [04:59] <othermaciej> brb
610. # [04:59] <heycam`> Hixie, hopefully not hard coding for every single tag/attribute
611. # [04:59] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-2abe1ffc53081206)
612. # [04:59] <Hixie> heycam`: only the camelCase ones and the ones in other namespaces, i expect
613. # [05:00] <heycam`> Hixie, what about defaulting to the svg ones in an "svg context", and having a way to get back to an "html context" if you need e.g. html <textarea>?
614. # [05:01] <shepazu> well, I expect we can keep revisiting this issue until a common solution is reached... there's plenty more to work on in HTML, I expect
615. # [05:01] <shepazu> we have until 2018, right?
616. # [05:01] <heycam`> =)
617. # [05:01] <annevk> for some overlapping tags you can prolly just default to the HTML one, such as html:a
618. # [05:01] <annevk> should work fine around SVG
619. # [05:01] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-67b1d23bb8a9fb10)
620. # [05:01] <annevk> although...
621. # [05:01] <Hixie> heycam`: that runs into the problem i mentioned before -- what if a page with a form in it has a random <svg> element strewn in the middle?
622. # [05:02] <heycam`> Hixie, hmm
623. # [05:02] <Hixie> shepazu: 2012 for CR, according to my timetable
624. # [05:02] <heycam`> Hixie, exercise your google webpage research fu, plz!
625. # [05:02] <shepazu> that's why I think the <ext> element would be best
626. # [05:03] <Hixie> heycam`: what should i search for?
627. # [05:03] <annevk> what if a random page uses <ext>?
628. # [05:03] <shepazu> any stray <svg>s are ignored or treated in an different manner
629. # [05:03] <Hixie> shepazu: describe what you are proposing: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Diagrams_in_HTML
630. # [05:03] <Hixie> or rather, just give several examples of it
631. # [05:03] <shepazu> annevk, yeah, that's just a placeholder name, not a real suggestion
632. # [05:03] <heycam`> things like that (an <svg> element that seems to contain html-ish stuff rather than svg-ish stuff, fsvo "seems to")
633. # [05:03] <heycam`> anyway, gotta get back to real work :(
634. # [05:03] <annevk> the question really goes for any name :)
635. # [05:04] <shepazu> annevk: true, but we could find a name without existing conflicts
636. # [05:04] <shepazu> we have google
637. # [05:04] <Hixie> heycam`: if you have any concrete ideas of what i should search for, i can look... not sure how to do what you describe
638. # [05:04] <shepazu> and still, we can define a processing model in case of future conflicts
639. # [05:05] <annevk> it seems fairly ugly to me
640. # [05:05] <Hixie> seriously though. i'll happily consider concrete proposals, even in just the form of examples on that wiki page or by e-mail or something
641. # [05:05] <Hixie> irc isn't the ideal medium for that though.
642. # [05:05] <shepazu> sure
643. # [05:06] <shepazu> we'll work on it
644. # [05:06] * annevk adds the idea from shepazu to the wiki
645. # [05:06] <shepazu> thanks, annevk
646. # [05:08] <annevk> feel free to check it
647. # [05:08] <annevk> it's there now
648. # [05:09] <annevk> maybe i should have used a prefix to make it more clear
649. # [05:11] <Hixie> edited
650. # [05:12] <annevk> do you think we can imply <foreignObject>?
651. # [05:12] <Hixie> with x=0 y=0 width=100% height=100%?
652. # [05:12] <Hixie> that doesn't seem overly useful
653. # [05:12] <Hixie> i'd just close the <svg>
654. # [05:13] <shepazu> annevk: mind if I prettyprint it?
655. # [05:13] <annevk> can table reparenting happen inside <svg>?
656. # [05:13] <annevk> shepazu, no
657. # [05:13] <annevk> as in, does <svg> create a slightly more sane parsing scope?
658. # [05:14] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-67b1d23bb8a9fb10)
659. # [05:16] <Hixie> annevk: ?
660. # [05:18] <annevk> what happens for <svg> <table> <div> </div> </ table> </svg>
661. # [05:18] <Hixie> shepazu: if you could elaborate on what you expect your error handling rules to be, that would be very useful
662. # [05:18] <Hixie> it's not clear from the example
663. # [05:19] <Hixie> annevk: i'd treat that the same as <svg> </svg (implied)><table> <div> </div> </table> </svg (ignored)>
664. # [05:19] <shepazu> Hixie: I'm not sure yet, but I'll ponder it and read up on HTML5 more to get the true spirit of it
665. # [05:19] <annevk> i see, that could work
666. # [05:20] <annevk> what happens for <svg> <foreignobject> <table> <div> </div> </ table> <foreignobject> </svg>
667. # [05:20] <shepazu> mind you, I'm just braindumping at this point
668. # [05:20] <Hixie> annevk: (just checking, you mean </table>, rightL)
669. # [05:20] <Hixie> ?
670. # [05:20] <annevk> yes
671. # [05:20] <annevk> oops
672. # [05:21] <shepazu> and </foreignobject>?
673. # [05:21] <annevk> also yes
674. # [05:21] <shepazu> :)
675. # [05:21] <Hixie> wait i'm confused
676. # [05:21] <Hixie> paste again what you are talking about :-)
677. # [05:21] <Hixie> without errors :-)
678. # [05:21] <shepazu> lol
679. # [05:21] <annevk> what happens for <svg> <foreignobject> <table> <div> </div> </table> </foreignobject> </svg>
680. # [05:22] <Hixie> same as today, except the <svg> and <foreignobject> elements end up in the svg namespace
681. # [05:22] <Hixie> and foreignobject becomes foreignObject
682. # [05:23] <shepazu> my intuition is that it should be processed according to the rules for the overall document (unless there's a way to specify which mime type is meant....)
683. # [05:23] <annevk> yeah, that's prolly fair enough
684. # [05:23] <annevk> i was thinking of having sane error handling inside the new stuff, but there's no real argument for doing that
685. # [05:24] <shepazu> could you do <html> <svg> <foreignobject> <html xmlns='...xhtml'> <div> </div> </html> </foreignobject> </svg> and have 2 different processing types for the html?
686. # [05:24] <Hixie> we can't
687. # [05:24] <Hixie> (that was to anne)
688. # [05:24] <shepazu> right
689. # [05:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-f1b011c928bc09f3)
690. # [05:24] <Hixie> annevk: you could totally have that markup today, and we don't want to change the processing for it
691. # [05:25] <Hixie> shepazu: again, that would likely break existing documents
692. # [05:25] <shepazu> fair enough
693. # [05:25] <shepazu> just thinking out loud
694. # [05:25] <Hixie> even if it didn't break existing ones, it would break new UAs during the transition, because people would use the new syntax, but test it in old UAs, forget that the new syntax is present, assume (unknowingly) that it is ignored, and publish it
695. # [05:26] <Hixie> so we'll end up with documents that use whatever new syntax we use, but that expect the legacy handling
696. # [05:26] <Hixie> which, come to think of it, is an argument against there ever being a name for <ext> that won't have problems
697. # [05:26] <shepazu> it's really edge anyway, I'm not concerned
698. # [05:27] <Hixie> what is?
699. # [05:27] <shepazu> my previous case
700. # [05:27] <Hixie> ah
701. # [05:27] <shepazu> still thinking about what you last said
702. # [05:27] <shepazu> and watching tv
703. # [05:28] <shepazu> sorry, what's the argument against <ext> (or whatever)?
704. # [05:29] * annevk added his <svg> as document element idea
705. # [05:29] <Hixie> whatever syntax we end up using, people will copy and paste it from documents that were written by competent authors that tested it against the new UAs, into documents written by authors who don't know about this, and who don't have the new UA
706. # [05:29] <shepazu> "(I being Anne.)" :)
707. # [05:30] <Hixie> and those new documents will effectively be new legacy documents
708. # [05:30] <Hixie> since they'll expect the legacy UA's processing
709. # [05:30] <shepazu> Hixie: I'm not sure we will be able to avoid all pain with any part of HTML5, but that's debatable, I guess
710. # [05:30] <annevk> the multiple UA thing is slightly less troublesome nowadays given that the "new UAs" have more market share
711. # [05:30] <shepazu> I agree it's a noble goal, though
712. # [05:30] <Hixie> i don't expect either firefox or IE to implement this first
713. # [05:31] <Hixie> and the other UAs have very little market share
714. # [05:31] <shepazu> no, Fx won't release for another 2 years, similar for IE
715. # [05:32] <Hixie> annevk: your use case isn't one of those on the list of problems i'm trying to solve, fwiw :-)
716. # [05:32] <shepazu> I expect first Opera or Safari, with the other following fast on the heels
717. # [05:32] <Hixie> christ it's late
718. # [05:32] <Hixie> i gotta go eat dinner
719. # [05:32] <Hixie> bbl
720. # [05:33] <shepazu> Hixie: but there might be an advantage in that, since implementors can play with it in the smaller browsers to get it right
721. # [05:33] <shepazu> later
722. # [05:33] <shepazu> thanks
723. # [05:33] * shepazu is tired, too :(
724. # [05:38] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-f1b011c928bc09f3)
725. # [05:38] <annevk> Hixie, hmm, good point, I added some rationale
726. # [05:59] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
727. # [06:04] <csarven> Off topic: anyone recommend any books (any)? :)
728. # [06:09] <annevk> The state of Africa from Marin Meredith
729. # [06:09] <annevk> Martin*
730. # [06:20] <csarven> Interesting
731. # [06:31] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
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742. # [08:06] <Hixie> christ there really are pages that use every element name under the sun
743. # [08:07] <Hixie> this apge expects something that looks like TeX as children of <math> elements http://dark-legion.org/sl/Čas
744. # [08:08] <Hixie> and this page says <FONT SIZE=+1><B>Влияние способа легирования кристаллов <MATH>n</MATH>-ZnSe медью на структуру центров свечения длинноволновой люминесценции
745. # [08:08] <Hixie> http://www.ioffe.rssi.ru/journals/ftp/1998/02/page-171.html.ru
746. # [08:08] <Hixie> no idea what they expect there
747. # [08:08] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-70-20.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
748. # [08:09] <Hixie> anyway long and short of it is that we can't turn <math>(bogus content)</math> into <math><merror><mtext>(bogus content)</text></merror></math>
749. # [08:09] <Hixie> or, for that matter, into <math><mi>(bogus content)</mi></math> as i was oproposing
750. # [08:10] <Hixie> we can probably do <math><mtext>(bogus content)</mtext></math>
751. # [08:11] <Hixie> ironically we can't even leave it as <math>(bogus content)</math> if we do use MathML, since the MathML rules would have that rendering an error inline
752. # [08:11] <annevk> i don't really like those rendering rules
753. # [08:12] <Hixie> i do
754. # [08:12] <Hixie> :-)
755. # [08:12] <Hixie> it's better than just ignoring the bogus stuff imho
756. # [08:13] * heycam` is now known as heycam
757. # [08:17] <annevk> hehe: http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html
758. # [08:17] <annevk> looks like a shot from star wars or something
759. # [08:21] <annevk> nn
760. # [08:21] <heycam> http://www.google.com/virgle/plan_3.html reminds me of the game Output
761. # [08:21] <heycam> er, Outpost
762. # [08:39] <BenMillard> "Crew members will communicate with these machines via an auditory Holistic Artificial Language interface visually mediated by a glowing red light."
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768. # [09:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: what should I do with <mrow><none/><mprescripts/></mrow> and why?
769. # [09:10] <Hixie> the dtd has two modes
770. # [09:10] <Hixie> a "compatibility" mode, and a strict mode that actually matches the spec
771. # [09:10] <Hixie> one checks for things like <mfrac> having two children, the other doesn't
772. # [09:11] <Hixie> the relax stuff you provided implements the wrong one
773. # [09:15] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@host86-164-140-117.range86-164.btcentralplus.com) ("The computer fell asleep")
774. # [09:19] <hsivonen> I don't like leaving HTML+MathML+SVG integration to CDF. They've dragged their feet with "by-inclusion" long enough
775. # [09:20] <Hixie> the great thing about cdf
776. # [09:21] <Hixie> is that even if they decide that this _is_ their responsibility
777. # [09:21] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
778. # [09:21] <Hixie> we'll be done and will have solved the problems long before they get their act together
779. # [09:21] <hsivonen> I think <ext> is worse than a new insertion mode on <svg> and <math>
780. # [09:24] <Hixie> http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/titaniumlabyrinth.html?cpg=70H is hilarious
781. # [09:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: i agree, it has all the problems of a new insertion mode, and then some
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783. # [09:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you have Google data on <math> not being able to establish a scope for backwards compat, do you have data that the Web would break if <svg> had its own tree builder scope?
784. # [09:31] <Hixie> i haven't looked at svg in much detail yet, only started looking today
785. # [09:31] <Hixie> but what kind of problem could you envisage
786. # [09:31] <Hixie> ?
787. # [09:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't expect the Web to break. I want an SVG insertion mode.
788. # [09:35] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
789. # [09:35] <Hixie> the problems mentioned with mathml exist with svg too
790. # [09:36] <hsivonen> does IE8 show the traits of having a tree builder scope for SVG and MathML?
791. # [09:37] <Hixie> ?
792. # [09:38] <Hixie> i have some more concrete numbers for mathml now
793. # [09:38] <Hixie> out of about 3/4 of a billion documents:
794. # [09:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: does IE8 already break you compat assumptions (if xmlns is present)?
795. # [09:38] <Hixie> ~50000 had a <math> or <foo:math> element
796. # [09:39] <Hixie> ~40000 had <math> and only presentational mathml elements, no content mathml, no <semantic>, no <annotation-xml>
797. # [09:40] <Hixie> ~800 seemed to have only content mathml
798. # [09:40] <Hixie> ~500 seemed to have both
799. # [09:40] <Hixie> ~900 seemed to have <semantics> or <annotation-xml> elements
800. # [09:40] <Hixie> ~10000 had <math> elements but didn't seem to have any other mathml elements
801. # [09:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: If you a couple at random and load them in Firefox, do you get a different content type from what google saw?
802. # [09:41] <hsivonen> If you take a couple...
803. # [09:41] <virtuelv> did anyone find out what the <hype> element did?
804. # [09:42] <Hixie> i screwed up the sampling for content mathml and pres+content mathml, so i can't give reliable urls for those two
805. # [09:43] <hsivonen> I didn't find out, but it sounds like it could be to <blink> what <em> is to <i> :-)
806. # [09:44] <Hixie> interesting, most of the presentational mathml pages seem to from freepatentsonline
807. # [09:45] <Hixie> http://www.hindawi.com/GetArticle.aspx?doi=10.1080/15604280212526&e=cta is another example
808. # [09:46] <Hixie> a strikingly worthless use of mathml if ever there was one...
809. # [09:47] <Hixie> http://www.emis.de/journals/HOA/JIA/2d12.html?doi=10.1155/JIA/2006/15063 is text/html
810. # [09:47] <Hixie> even in firefox
811. # [09:47] <Hixie> and contains mathml with prefixes
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813. # [09:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: checking IE8...
814. # [09:51] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
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817. # [10:10] <hsivonen> “Given that HTML5 is intended to be a replacement/evolution of HTML
818. # [10:10] <hsivonen> in an era when the semantic web is coming of age” :-)
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823. # [10:31] <sayrer> an XML notation for CSS
824. # [10:31] <sayrer> hmm
825. # [10:31] <sayrer> is this a time wasting tactic of some sort?
826. # [10:32] <sayrer> gah
827. # [10:32] <sayrer> this is the 5th April 1st joke I have fallen for
828. # [10:32] <sayrer> I think I will try to avoid the computer tomorrow
829. # [10:33] <sayrer> funny that one didn't seem so far-fetched
830. # [10:34] <hsivonen> I'm worried about the CSS versioning suggestion, though
831. # [10:34] <hsivonen> Levels are Good for Web formats
832. # [10:35] <sayrer> I try to avoid reading the CSS WG list
833. # [10:36] <sayrer> I don't know much about CSS for someone who works on browsers, and that list seems highly gamed
834. # [10:37] <virtuelv> sayrer: it's not really that far-fetched
835. # [10:37] <virtuelv> see Joe English' proposal, http://virtuelvis.com/archives/2005/01/css-history
836. # [10:38] <hsivonen> well, XSL-FO is basically Jukka Korpela's April Fools joke from a few years ago...
837. # [10:39] <hsivonen> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/xhtml3.html
838. # [10:40] <sayrer> hmm, wonder what the April 1st RFCs are this year
839. # [10:41] <sayrer> it will be difficult to best RFC 3252
840. # [10:43] <sayrer> hmm, looked under most recent RFCs
841. # [10:43] <sayrer> evidently RFC 5168 is from March
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851. # [11:42] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
852. # [11:43] <Lachy> it's always nice to see people quote mining. http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2008-April/000676.html
853. # [11:44] <Lachy> I really wonder what his intent is with pulling out statements like that, instead of responding directly with a counter argument.
854. # [11:45] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acbi254.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
855. # [11:53] <kfish> Lachy, perhaps that mode of disagreement falls somewhere between levels 2 and 3 in http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html
856. # [11:53] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@host86-151-79-160.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) ("The computer fell asleep")
857. # [11:56] <hendry> what's the form input switch between numbers and alpha characters defined as nowadays?
858. # [11:56] * hendry has forgotten
859. # [11:57] <hendry> i think in WF2 it's pattern="[0-9" though i wasn't there something else
860. # [12:00] <hendry> inputmode? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#inputmode however the link there is http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/sliceE.html is a 404
861. # [12:06] <Dashiva> Lachy: Maybe they wanted to raise the quality level of the posting, so they went to Hixie for content ;)
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865. # [12:37] <virtuelv> no blog post today?
866. # [12:39] <Lachy> virtuelv, on which blog?
867. # [12:39] <Lachy> the whatwg blog? feel free to write one
868. # [12:40] <virtuelv> nono, I've blogged once today already
869. # [12:40] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
870. # [12:42] * gsnedders still has no idea what to do in the next twenty minutes
871. # [12:44] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-75863e41da5c1b45)
872. # [12:48] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Write an excellent whatwg blog post
873. # [12:48] <gsnedders> Dashiva: My mind is void of ideas, though
874. # [12:50] <Dashiva> virtuelv: I wasn't aware that youtube hosted opera's press releases. I thought we were against using proprietary video ;)
875. # [12:51] <gsnedders> Double-standards! Opera are worthless!
876. # [12:51] <gsnedders> Scub!
877. # [12:53] <Dashiva> Are you pro or anti?
878. # [12:53] <gsnedders> I'm not a pro, I'm just an amateur
879. # [12:54] <Dashiva> You could write a post saying HTML5 is now defining scub a MUST NOT requirement
880. # [12:54] <gsnedders> Dashiva: not overly funny, though
881. # [12:55] <Dashiva> Of course not, that's just a seed idea. You have to plant and nourish it so it'll bloom into excellence :)
882. # [12:55] <Lachy> what is "scub"?
883. # [12:55] <gsnedders> scum spelt wrong
884. # [12:56] <Dashiva> No, no
885. # [12:56] <gsnedders> scub is… http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Scub
886. # [12:56] <gsnedders> I wobn't say here
887. # [12:56] <gsnedders> Well, there's more than one meaning
888. # [12:57] <gsnedders> But I meant scum, I just spelt it wrong :P
889. # [12:57] <Dashiva> There's also http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF020-Skub.gif
890. # [13:03] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-216-20.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
891. # [13:05] <gsnedders> HTML 5 is so pointless. We should just be moving to XHTML 5.
892. # [13:06] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
893. # [13:07] <Dashiva> You aren't even trying :/
894. # [13:08] <gsnedders> I mean, with XML 5!
895. # [13:09] <Dashiva> How about getting Hixie to resign as editor. That might work :)
896. # [13:09] <Lachy> gsnedders, april fools day articles need to be about something funny that is unlikely to ever happen. XML 5 is very likely to happen one day
897. # [13:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: I know :P
898. # [13:10] <Lachy> Dashiva, IIRC, Hixie said no to that one last year
899. # [13:11] <gsnedders> Lachy: last year on my blog: me getting a gf. Anyone who knows me well enough on IM, or how I acted in some IRC channels then, would find that totally implausible
900. # [13:11] <Lachy> though, I could be wrong. But I'm fairly sure it was thought of and there was some reason not to go for it
901. # [13:11] <Dashiva> We could try Hyatt, but who even knows he's also an editor
902. # [13:11] <gsnedders> I do!!1111!!1eleventy!
903. # [13:12] <Lachy> anyone know if the IETF will actually be publishing an RFC today?
904. # [13:13] <gsnedders> They didn't in 2007, did they?
905. # [13:13] <gsnedders> I dunno. I've not been in contact with the RFC editor for a while
906. # [13:13] <Lachy> yeah, last year was the semaphore flag signalling thing
907. # [13:13] <Lachy> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4824
908. # [13:13] <gsnedders> ah. I forgot that one.
909. # [13:13] <gsnedders> Bert was the year before, then?
910. # [13:14] <gsnedders> Yeah, he was
911. # [13:14] <Lachy> yes, 2006
912. # [13:14] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day_RFC
913. # [13:14] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
914. # [13:14] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("pike!")
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916. # [13:22] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
917. # [13:23] * gsnedders wonders whether to try to implement UTF-9 in an 8-bit language
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919. # [13:32] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
920. # [13:33] <zcorpan> so who's gonna write something on the whatwg blog?
921. # [13:37] <Lachy> zcorpan, I will if someone comes up with a good topic
922. # [13:38] <Lachy> everything I think of is just not funny enough
923. # [13:39] <zcorpan> there was some discussion yesterday
924. # [13:41] <Lachy> aargh! blog.whatwg.org has internal server errors
925. # [13:41] <Lachy> hmm. weird, it fixed after a reload
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933. # [13:58] * gsnedders really can't think of anything funny
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935. # [14:01] <tomg> http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/04/01/acid-3-opera-first-to-106
936. # [14:03] * gsnedders blames Hixie
937. # [14:03] <Dashiva> I'm not convinced, really. Six points for changing each block into an egg, but there should be a seventh point for making one of the eggs hatch!
938. # [14:06] <gsnedders> anyone know anyway to do URL normalisation in Python?
939. # [14:13] <Lachy> we should just introduce a bug that causes Acid3 to enter an infinite loop, and then we can claim to the first browser to reach infinity
940. # [14:13] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-31-53.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
941. # [14:14] <Philip`> Lachy: But an infinite loop will only ever have reached a finite number of repetitions...
942. # [14:15] <Lachy> Philip`, not if we leave the build running for eternity
943. # [14:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: can the test be changed to the easter egg version? :P
944. # [14:16] <Dashiva> zcorpan: Sure, if you reveal the triggers :)
945. # [14:16] <Lachy> maybe we could publish a UserJS that does it, like Opera did for Acid2 with the eyes
946. # [14:17] <zcorpan> acid2 with the eyes?
947. # [14:18] <Lachy> there was a build of Opera (and subsequent UserJS) released that caused the eyes to begin following the mouse after about a minute
948. # [14:19] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_of_the_Opera_web_browser#Opera_9_Acid2_easter_egg
949. # [14:21] <zcorpan> lol
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953. # [14:51] <gsnedders> Walking up stairs in walking boots is hard.
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961. # [15:43] <hendry> for same origin type security and offline resources file URLs like "file:///db" considered to be "domains"?
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964. # [15:48] <hendry> annevk: you might be able to help me :)
965. # [15:48] <annevk> ok...
966. # [15:48] <hendry> annevk: for same origin type security and offline resources file URLs like "file:///db" considered to be "domains"?
967. # [15:49] <annevk> ooh, that differs per browser
968. # [15:49] <annevk> not standardized as it doesn't affect interop
969. # [15:49] <hendry> using something like "file:///db" for implementing offline support, is that OK?
970. # [15:50] <hendry> I see Gears see to do stuff with a localhost type domain service IIRC
971. # [15:50] <virtuelv> I find it troubling that only one of the april fool's RFCs has been implemented
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973. # [15:59] <Lachy> virtuelv, I think 2 have been implemented
974. # [15:59] <Lachy> RFC 1149 (as mentioned in that wikipedia article) and the evil bit
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976. # [16:01] <Lachy> and UTF-9/UTF-18 were implemented in PDP-10 assembly language apparently
977. # [16:01] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-9_and_UTF-18
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981. # [16:19] * qwert666__ is now known as qwert666
982. # [16:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: the login box overlaps the text in the spec
983. # [16:22] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
984. # [16:23] <virtuelv> Lachy: I knew about 1149, but UTF-9 came as a surprise
985. # [16:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: also, it's not at the top of the spec when css is disabled :P
986. # [16:26] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
987. # [16:27] <Lachy> ha! http://uk.youtube.com/ - every featured video is Rickroll :-)
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990. # [16:28] <zcorpan> hmm that url crashed merlin
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1001. # [16:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: despite the claimed duality anti-pattern, I feel like saying +1 to what Neil Soiffer says about putting Content MathML in the DOM
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1003. # [16:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: pointer?
1004. # [16:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0016.html
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1012. # [17:25] <zcorpan> firefox doesn't the "invalid markup" for <math xmlns=...>foobar</math>
1013. # [17:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
1014. # [17:25] <zcorpan> so no need to imply <mtext>
1015. # [17:25] <zcorpan> s//render/
1016. # [17:26] <zcorpan> data:text/xml,<math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'><mfrac>foo</mfrac></math>
1017. # [17:26] <zcorpan> data:text/xml,<math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'>foo</math>
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1021. # [17:53] <annevk> hsivonen, I don't think the poisening is deliberate
1022. # [17:54] <annevk> hsivonen, as was already noted, doing generic parsing may not be feasible given deployed content
1023. # [17:58] <hsivonen> annevk: if there's a hard-coded list, putting additional entries on the list doesn't seem like a big deal
1024. # [18:00] <annevk> and what are the use cases if it isn't HTML anymore and very hard for the user to get to as it is never displayed?
1025. # [18:01] <annevk> s/HTML/XML/
1026. # [18:04] <hsivonen> annevk: the use case is math course material with vendor-independent excercise material
1027. # [18:04] <hsivonen> s/excercise/exercise/
1028. # [18:09] <annevk> how is MathML itself not vendor-independent?
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1034. # [18:42] <hsivonen> annevk: Presentation MathML alone doesn't everything you'd want to round-trip from a computer algebra package via the Web back to a computer algebra package (possibly from a different vendor)
1035. # [18:47] <annevk> that's true for HTML, CSS, etc. too
1036. # [18:58] <hsivonen> annevk: what's true? that HTML and CSS aren't rich enough to round-trip to computer algebra packages?
1037. # [19:11] <annevk> oh, maybe I missed your point
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1064. # [20:04] <andersca> Hixie?
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1070. # [20:23] <annevk> looking at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Diagrams_in_HTML it seems that while <ext> might be more "pure" (for some value) the first proposal is far easier to author
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1106. # [22:47] * gsnedders yawns
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1111. # [22:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: while adding the occasionaly element to a hard coded list is one thing, adding _140_ elements that in practicve are goign to be used in (number forthcoming)% of web pages, is just silly
1112. # [22:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: depends on the actual perf hit with binary search or a more clever mechanism (e.g. switch by length first)
1113. # [22:55] <hsivonen> With interned strings, the memore footprint increase should be around 140 * pointer size
1114. # [22:56] <Hixie> it really doesn't depend on anything
1115. # [22:56] <Hixie> it's over 140 elements!
1116. # [22:57] <hsivonen> says an editor who has spec bit involving checking the Unicode class of syntax-significant characters :-)
1117. # [22:58] <hsivonen> how is containment lookup from a set of 140 strings different from lookups from Unicode classes?
1118. # [23:00] <Hixie> i immediately rejected the idea of testing unicode character classes when you pointed out the problem with that, btw
1119. # [23:00] <Hixie> i am mildly embarassed that i forgot our goal :-)
1120. # [23:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's still on the above-DOM level in <time> element contents and <progress> contents, IIRC
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1122. # [23:01] <Hixie> yeah, dunno what we'll do about those. i'm sure you've sent feedback.
1123. # [23:01] <Hixie> still, that's not as serious as in the parser
1124. # [23:02] * hsivonen notes that XML requires crazy checking for the Name production. in the parser
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1126. # [23:03] <Hixie> oh actually i guess we do have that kind of checking in html5 too
1127. # [23:03] <Hixie> in some places
1128. # [23:04] <hsivonen> I think I have it only when the user of the parser has requested that XML violations not be passed through
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1132. # [23:13] * gsnedders is implementing UTF-9 in an octet-based language
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1134. # [23:15] <Philip`> gsnedders: The first step should be to write an emulator for a 9-bit CPU architecture, and then the rest is straightforward
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1136. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: But that takes out half the fun :P
1137. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Actually, it wouldn't
1138. # [23:15] <gsnedders> You just have the fun in the emulator
1139. # [23:15] <Philip`> gsnedders: Then make it 18-bit and you'll get that half back again
1140. # [23:16] <Philip`> You could base it on the EDSAC
1141. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: basically, I'm converting everything to nonets then doing all the hard work
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1146. # [23:39] * Hixie grins evilly
1147. # [23:39] <Hixie> we could make the &phi; entity resolve to different things in a mathml context than an html one...
1148. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Hixie: Oh piss off :P
1149. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Needless complexity ftl.
1150. # [23:40] <Dashiva> How long has &phi; been in MathML and HTML respectively?
1151. # [23:41] <hsivonen> Dashiva: Unicode changed underneath both...
1152. # [23:41] * hsivonen blames Unicode Consortium for giving into pressure from national interest groups
1153. # [23:41] <Dashiva> So, how 'bout them capital double s glyphs
1154. # [23:42] <hsivonen> case mappings for those will be a mess...
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1158. # Session Close: Wed Apr 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)