/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 01 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  19. # [01:24] <mcarter__> Hello
  20. # [01:24] * mcarter__ is now known as mcarter
  21. # [01:25] <mcarter> In the Server-Sent-Events specification, the 301 Moved Permanently response says that the UA must reconnect to the new URI. What URI should be provided to the removeEventSource function to disconnect it? the original URI, or the redirected URI?
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  25. # [01:27] <Hixie> mcarter: good question. send mail. :-)
  26. # [01:28] <mcarter> ok, will do
  27. # [01:29] <Hixie> (probably the origin one)
  28. # [01:29] <mcarter> Hixie, something else I need to mention on the list is that the terminology is a bit confusing. On the one hand you have the "event-source" dom element, but then you can call addEventSource on an event-source
  29. # [01:29] <Hixie> er, original
  30. # [01:30] <Hixie> you can call addEventSource on anything
  31. # [01:30] <mcarter> so when I see something like "(It doesn't affect other event sources with the same URI unless they also receive 301 responses, and it doesn't affect future sessions, e.g. if the page is reloaded.)" I don't know if "event sources" means the dom element, or one of the event sources attached to that dom element
  32. # [01:30] <Hixie> it means the event sources unless it is spelt event-sourcen orange
  33. # [01:30] <Hixie> er
  34. # [01:30] <Hixie> man i suck at typing today
  35. # [01:30] <Hixie> "it means the event sources unless it is spelt event-sourc in orange"
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  37. # [01:31] <mcarter> Hixie, hmm, then that sentence seems to imply that you can call addEventSource(url) multiple times on the same event-source element with the same url
  38. # [01:33] <Hixie> yes
  39. # [01:34] <Hixie> <event-source> as an element is the same as <span>
  40. # [01:34] <Hixie> except for one thing
  41. # [01:34] <Hixie> which is that its src="" attribute causes addEventSource() and removeEventSource() to be called
  42. # [01:34] <Hixie> on itself
  43. # [01:34] * andersca_ is now known as andersca
  44. # [01:34] <Hixie> we could in fact remove <event-source> altogether, it's just there for convenience
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  46. # [01:36] <mcarter> well, what I'm getting at is that the spec seems to imply that a dom element that implements the RemoteEventTarget interface can have its addEventSource function called twice with an identical url. I'm not sure what that would mean -- that you make two connections to the same URI? how would you close a particular one?
  47. # [01:38] <Hixie> the spec doesn't provide a way to remove a particular one
  48. # [01:38] <Hixie> it'll remove one each time you call removeEventSource(), but you can't control which one
  49. # [01:39] <mcarter> ok
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  53. # [01:57] <Hixie> so much for a non-confidential xhtml2 wg
  54. # [01:57] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2008AprJun/
  55. # [01:57] <andersca> ha
  56. # [01:58] <Hixie> oh ok it was a mistake
  57. # [01:58] <Hixie> nevermind
  58. # [01:59] <Hixie> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0404.html)
  59. # [02:00] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  60. # [02:10] * Philip` wonders if it's intentional that HTML5 almost always uses the passive voice, like in "The values of the data array may be changed", instead of saying something like "Authors may change the values of the data array" that is often less ambiguous
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  62. # [02:16] <Dashiva> Maybe to avoid overspecifying
  63. # [02:16] <Dashiva> Like, is it possible to change the value without being an author?
  64. # [02:17] <Philip`> Treat it as an abbreviation of "authors may write documents which cause scripts to execute which change the values of the data array" (and define that abbreviation somewhere global)
  65. # [02:18] <Philip`> It's underspecified now, because the UA might decide to arbitrarily change the data array at some random point in time, and argue that that's allowed because the spec says 'the values may be changed'
  66. # [02:19] <Philip`> (ignoring the issue that "may" is inappropriate here - pretend I'm talking about a different case that uses "must" or something :-) )
  67. # [02:20] <Philip`> (like "ImageData objects must be initialised so that ..." - who must do that? There's only one possible answer given the context, but you shouldn't have to deduce the meaning that's implicit in the context)
  68. # [02:21] <Philip`> Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm just being uselessly picky here - it's not going to cause problems in practice, it's just a bit unclear when trying to read the spec in detail, and maybe there are reasons to write it like how it's written now (e.g. 'it looks ugly and hard to read otherwise')
  69. # [02:22] <Philip`> ...and those reasons could be more significant than the trivial problems
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  101. # [03:09] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe I shouldn't focus so much on testing the ability to draw solid lime green rectangles - WebKit seemed to be doing really quite well on my ImageData tests, until I accidentally found that it actually totally breaks if you draw some data with alpha!=1 and more than one colour of pixels...
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  116. # [03:16] <Hixie> Philip`: see if you can track down teh bug that causes teh whatwg issues graph to change colour when you hover over it
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  120. # [03:16] <Hixie> and the spec using the passive voice is just that my style, it's probably not ideal
  121. # [03:17] <Hixie> if there are cases where it is genuinely ambiguous let me know
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  125. # [03:36] <Philip`> Hixie: I don't see what you mean about it changing colour
  126. # [03:36] <Hixie> originally the bars in the background are yellow
  127. # [03:36] <Hixie> after the putImageDate(), the turn gray
  128. # [03:37] <Philip`> Hixie: I don't think I've seen any cases where it's actually ambiguous, so I'm only moaning about it on IRC for now :-)
  129. # [03:37] <Hixie> :-)
  130. # [03:37] <Philip`> Hixie: In which browser(s)?
  131. # [03:37] <Hixie> webkit trunk
  132. # [03:38] <Philip`> Looks like it could be the same issue as I found, if you're putImageDataing things with transparent pixels
  133. # [03:38] <Philip`> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18821
  134. # [03:38] <Hixie> k
  135. # [03:38] <takkaria> MikeSmith: ping
  136. # [03:39] <Philip`> (It seems to copy the colour data from the leftmost pixel, and mixes it with the alpha from the proper pixels)
  137. # [03:39] <Philip`> (and if the leftmost pixel is transparent then it'll be black/grey)
  138. # [03:40] <Philip`> (I haven't got a clue how they could have implemented such a bug)
  139. # [03:41] <Hixie> off by one byte?
  140. # [03:42] <Philip`> It's not just one byte - the colour from the leftmost pixel propagates infinitely far rightwards
  141. # [03:43] <Hixie> oh
  142. # [03:43] <Hixie> wtf
  143. # [03:43] <Hixie> actually that's easier
  144. # [03:43] <Hixie> probably a misinitialised variable
  145. # [03:43] <Hixie> as in, something that is scoped to a different scope than they realise
  146. # [03:43] <Philip`> It's also odd that it only happens when alpha != 1
  147. # [03:44] <Philip`> since I don't see why there'd be any point in special-casing that case on purpose
  148. # [03:45] <Philip`> But I'll bet they fixed it six days ago anyway, and just haven't got a new nightly build out since then :-)
  149. # [03:46] <Hixie> heh
  150. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> takkaria: wanted to ask you about progress (if any) on your html5lib porting
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  153. # [04:07] <takkaria> MikeSmith: well, it's not porting, but not started yet, no
  154. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> OK
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  183. # [06:22] <MikeSmith> takkaria: you still around?
  184. # [06:24] <takkaria> MikeSmith: yes
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  186. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> takkaria: wanted to ask if you're on the whatwg implementors mailing list
  187. # [06:25] <takkaria> MikeSmith: yup
  188. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  189. # [06:25] <takkaria> have been since it started, I think
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  191. # [06:28] <takkaria> actually I'm waiting on ink cartridges to arrive so I can print out the relevant chunks of the spec and read them through with marker pen
  192. # [06:28] <takkaria> then I intend to start coding
  193. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> I just asked about the list because I noticed messages from Edward Yang
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  213. # [09:24] <Hixie> http://juicystudio.com/article/html5-alt-text-authoring-tools.php
  214. # [09:24] <Hixie> apparently my attempts at improving accessibility are seen as an attempt to make html5 appear successful
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  217. # [09:24] <Hixie> and our attempts at doing and working based on real research is seen as misdirection
  218. # [09:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: I apologies for turning the icon size discussion into a bikeshed
  219. # [09:29] <Hixie> no worries
  220. # [09:29] <Hixie> my working model handles bikesheds very easily :-)
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  222. # [09:35] * Hixie comments on that link
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  230. # [10:44] <jgraham_> Wow, Gez's article is surprisingly uninteresting given how much publicity it's had (well one link in IRC and 2 emails on public-html)
  231. # [10:46] <jgraham_> I was expecting new arguments, instead it was just the same stuff but with the accusation that people who don't agree that alt should be mandatory are being disingenuous
  232. # [10:53] <Lachy> wow, he seems to be arguing that alt should still be omitted when an authoring tool has nothing useful to put in it, but that it should be considered invalid.
  233. # [10:55] <Philip`> Why is that a bad idea?
  234. # [10:56] <jgraham_> Philip`: Because it encourages people to stuff alt with meaningless values to make their pages valid
  235. # [10:57] <Philip`> It encourages people to set alt values to make their pages valid - some of those may be meaningless, but others may be meaningful and worthwhile
  236. # [10:58] <Philip`> (assuming "people" means "authors")
  237. # [10:58] <Philip`> (If "people" means "authoring tool developers", then they're not capable of meaningful text, in which case it is a problem)
  238. # [10:59] <othermaciej> requiring software to generate nonconforming content in some situations does not make sense as a conformace requirement
  239. # [10:59] <jgraham_> It's not quite clear which way that one would swing but, with a site like flickr, if there was an option to set alt text, I would expect the values to be harmful more often than they were helpful
  240. # [11:00] <jgraham_> (assuming flickr provided the box out of a desire to allow pages to be conforming)
  241. # [11:00] <othermaciej> I have been trying to use VoiceOver more lately to play with some of WebKit's new accessibility stuff
  242. # [11:01] <othermaciej> perhaps I will get a sense of how annoying repeated or bad alt values are
  243. # [11:01] <othermaciej> (by "repeated" I mean repeats something in the real page content)
  244. # [11:01] <othermaciej> jgraham_: it probably would get used a fair bit less than the title or description fields
  245. # [11:01] <othermaciej> I would guess a minority of photos have both title and description set
  246. # [11:02] <jgraham_> othermaciej: I would expect that at best people would just copy the description into the field
  247. # [11:02] <jgraham_> s/field/alt field/
  248. # [11:03] <othermaciej> well I think on flickr gallery pages, "go to photo page" may be better alt text than a description in any case
  249. # [11:03] <othermaciej> open question whether more description would help a substantive portion of the individual photo pages
  250. # [11:04] <jgraham_> Yeah, on the gallery page "go to photo $photo_title" might be the best alt text
  251. # [11:04] <jgraham_> I was thinking of the individual photo pages
  252. # [11:14] <jgraham_> I can't help but think the required alt thinking is tied to the idea that accessibility only happens as a result of people wielding a stick to make it happen. Therefore taking away anything that can be used as a stick is perceived as bad even if that change also has the potential to create an environment where accessibility is better in the default no-stick case.
  253. # [11:15] <jgraham_> But I should stop thinking such things until I get around to finishing the data collection tool thing
  254. # [11:15] <jgraham_> :)
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  257. # [11:49] <htmlfivedotnet> Outsiders opinion: Someone who knows what their doing will use the alt tag correctly, many people don't even know its purpose, which is why garbage gets jammed in. No alt tag should be valid html, but not considered accessible... which may cause someone to figure out what that means, and fix it.
  258. # [11:50] <htmlfivedotnet> *missing alt tag, rather.
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  275. # [14:55] <Philip`> http://www.adobe.com/openscreenproject/developers/ - SWF and FLV specs now with no licensing restrictions
  276. # [15:06] <othermaciej> hmm, I can't actually tell how f4v differs from m4v from this
  277. # [15:08] <roc> that's cool
  278. # [15:11] <Philip`> Sounds mostly like F4V is just a profile of MP4
  279. # [15:16] <othermaciej> I think I would need to be an expert on MPEG to understand if what they are describing is different
  280. # [15:17] <othermaciej> I think they are redefining parts of the various MP4 container format specs
  281. # [15:17] <Philip`> It'd be useful if there was an MPEG experts group that could be asked that kind of thing
  282. # [15:17] <othermaciej> but I can't tell if it is actually compatible with real mpeg 4
  283. # [15:18] <othermaciej> some sort of Motion Picture Experts Group maybe?
  284. # [15:18] <Philip`> Yeah, someone should form one of those
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  286. # [15:30] <Philip`> http://www.kaourantin.net/2007/10/new-file-extensions-and-mime-types.html seems to indicate that Flash ignores the filename and ignores the ftyp=F4V field, and treats them the same as any other MP4 file
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  328. # [20:28] <Hixie> htmlfivedotnet: that's what the spec says at the moment :-)
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  334. # [21:06] <Hixie> jgraham_: btw i'm happy to help with the "choice of sites" problem
  335. # [21:07] <Hixie> jgraham_: i can trivially get you a list of urls for pages that satisfy a particular criteria
  336. # [21:07] <Hixie> just tell me how many, and what criteria
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  338. # [21:15] <Hixie> aw man, i fell into the trap
  339. # [21:16] <Hixie> and i was being so careful
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  341. # [21:17] <Philip`> When near a trap, 'being careful' usually means getting as far away as possible, rather than thoughtfully and slowly and delicately poking it until it rips your arm off
  342. # [21:18] <Hixie> i had been just not replying to the e-mails
  343. # [21:19] <maikmerten> Hixie: do you happen to have a spare minute or two? ;-)
  344. # [21:19] <Hixie> sure
  345. # [21:19] <maikmerten> ah, thanks
  346. # [21:19] <maikmerten> well, I am pretty curious what you meant with your blog comment reading as follows: "The Theora codec isn't unencumbered, despite popular opinion; it just hasn't had anyone claim patents on it publicly yet."
  347. # [21:20] <maikmerten> this sounds like patents actually *surfaced*
  348. # [21:20] <Hixie> i don't know of any specific patents myself
  349. # [21:20] <maikmerten> and that you're just leaning back to see the train wreck ignite ;)
  350. # [21:20] <maikmerten> so you were referring to the "usual" submarine threat
  351. # [21:20] <maikmerten> (I assume?)
  352. # [21:20] <Hixie> but i am told by video experts that the "submarine" threat is not really hypothetical in the case of theora
  353. # [21:20] <Hixie> er
  354. # [21:20] <Hixie> note that theora
  355. # [21:21] <Hixie> note that theora hasn't been designed in a way to avoid patents or anything
  356. # [21:21] <Hixie> (unlike vorbis)
  357. # [21:21] <maikmerten> that's not quite true, On2 makes a living out of evading patents
  358. # [21:21] <maikmerten> it's their business model
  359. # [21:21] <Hixie> i can't speak to that
  360. # [21:21] <Hixie> i'm just saying that from a patent point of view, theora isn't clean enough
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  362. # [21:22] <Hixie> not that anything else is any better
  363. # [21:22] <Hixie> but theora isn't the silver bullet people make it out to be
  364. # [21:22] <maikmerten> well, I wonder why those "video experts" don't just speak out
  365. # [21:22] <Hixie> because there are legal implications to claiming knowledge of patents
  366. # [21:22] <maikmerten> *if* there are problems they should just go public with it
  367. # [21:22] <jgraham_> Hixie: Great. I need to find a little time to work on it...
  368. # [21:23] <Hixie> e.g. if you know that a patent exists and then you violate it, your liability triples, as i understand it
  369. # [21:23] <maikmerten> nobody benefits from Theora adopters getting hurt *if* there are problems
  370. # [21:23] <maikmerten> and it would be interesting to see who those experts are anyway
  371. # [21:23] <Hixie> the law around patents are non-intuitive
  372. # [21:23] <Hixie> you can get in trouble just for knowing things
  373. # [21:23] <maikmerten> note that "audio experts" claimed the same for Vorbis
  374. # [21:23] <Hixie> it's pretty ridiculous
  375. # [21:23] <Hixie> again, i can't speak to that
  376. # [21:24] <Hixie> the long and short of it is that theora is just as bad as everything else, except for being vendor-specific (not a standard) and not quite as technically good as H.264
  377. # [21:24] <Hixie> Sun's H.261 work looks interesting though
  378. # [21:24] <Hixie> if that goes anywhere
  379. # [21:25] <maikmerten> well, if they change anything about H.261 they're facing the same threat
  380. # [21:25] <maikmerten> but it's interesting, yes
  381. # [21:25] <maikmerten> (what makes them different is that people assume they *have* lawyers)
  382. # [21:26] <maikmerten> and as for being vendor-specific: The spec is in the public domain, so how much more libre can it go anyway
  383. # [21:26] <Philip`> (They also have liability if their lawyers make the wrong decisions, so there's a significant incentive for them to be cautious)
  384. # [21:26] <Hixie> well, it could be an ISO standard :-)
  385. # [21:27] <maikmerten> and for not being as good as H.264 - well, that's not the reference to compare to when talking about royality free standards
  386. # [21:27] <maikmerten> just like OOXML? ;-)
  387. # [21:27] <maikmerten> well, HTML could also be an ISO standard
  388. # [21:27] <Hixie> it is
  389. # [21:27] <maikmerten> so, and what does that change ;)
  390. # [21:27] <Hixie> ISO/IEC 15445:2000(E)
  391. # [21:27] <maikmerten> yup
  392. # [21:28] <Hixie> i'm just saying that a public domain spec by one vendor is not the same as an internationally recognised standard
  393. # [21:28] <Philip`> The existence of ISO-HTML doesn't suggest that ISO has extremely high standards of detailed interoperable specifications
  394. # [21:28] <Hixie> i agree that H.264 has known patent claims made on it
  395. # [21:29] <Hixie> though they may expire in the coming years, possibly before html5 is complete, even
  396. # [21:29] <Hixie> (at least for 264 baseline)
  397. # [21:29] <maikmerten> one could argue that being an ISO standard can in some cases just be a "checkbox feature", without real practical consequences
  398. # [21:29] <Hixie> one could
  399. # [21:29] <Hixie> but tell me
  400. # [21:29] <Philip`> By the time H.264's patents have expired, it'll be as technically worthless as H.261
  401. # [21:30] <Hixie> did you prefer <canvas> when it was apple's thing, or when it got added to html5?
  402. # [21:30] <maikmerten> ISO doesn't guarantee quality, nor does it imply that everybody can implement it
  403. # [21:30] <Hixie> Philip`: most of the important baseline patents may expire within a couple of years
  404. # [21:30] <maikmerten> however, there are policies in many organizations calling for ISO standards, so that's why it definately is a "good thing" to use one
  405. # [21:31] <Philip`> Hixie: Unfortunately people can still be sued over a single barely-important patent in an optional feature that everyone happens to rely on
  406. # [21:31] <Hixie> maikmerten: people will always be suspicious of vendor-controlled "standards"
  407. # [21:31] <maikmerten> too bad the ISO video coding standards fall short somewhere else
  408. # [21:31] <hsivonen> (work hat off): I'd be interested in pointers to criteria for evaluating standards for goodness in a way that doesn't involve checking for organizational logos
  409. # [21:32] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, the idea would be to use baseline only
  410. # [21:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: You could ask some guys on IRC what they think of it
  411. # [21:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: so far the best criteria I have seen are Sam's from http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2007/01/25/Pro-Choice
  412. # [21:33] <hsivonen> "A standard is one that has multiple, inter-operable, independent implementations. An open standard, at least in the software world, is one where at least one of those implementations is open source."
  413. # [21:33] <Hixie> that seems like a dodgy definition
  414. # [21:34] <Hixie> but ok
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  416. # [21:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: (I think I should write something that can be given to politicians. and for that use case, telling them to ask on IRC isn't good)
  417. # [21:34] <maikmerten> Hixie: well, I just don't see how being public domain qualifies as "vendor-controlled"
  418. # [21:34] <maikmerten> however, it may be a case of "not enough control"
  419. # [21:35] <Hixie> maikmerten: who decides what the spec says?
  420. # [21:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the definition should also require that you can write the next interoperable independent impl. by following the spec
  421. # [21:35] <Hixie> maikmerten: public domain means that anyone can copy it, not that the official version is under anyone's control
  422. # [21:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: indeed
  423. # [21:35] <maikmerten> Hixie: the official Theora spec: Xiph.org (which is a 403 organization)
  424. # [21:36] <Hixie> 403 Forbidden? :-)
  425. # [21:36] <hsivonen> Forbidden? :-)
  426. # [21:36] <hendry> heh
  427. # [21:36] <Hixie> maikmerten: and who changes it?
  428. # [21:36] <Philip`> Hixie: Sounds like that still wouldn't be technically competitive with whatever the state-of-the-art would be, and technical competitiveness is still important for video (since it's low quality and high bandwidth and therefore worth optimising), which is kind of a pain in terms of convincing people it's worth using
  429. # [21:36] <Hixie> maikmerten: who decides what an error is, etc?
  430. # [21:36] <Philip`> s/that/H.264 baseline/
  431. # [21:36] <maikmerten> err... 403... dammit... I meant 501(c)(3)
  432. # [21:37] <Hixie> Philip`: yes, i don't think you'll be able to have a patent unencumbered or royalty-free state of the art video codec before international patent reform.
  433. # [21:37] <maikmerten> Hixie: "the xiph.org community" - which, however, is as open as it can get
  434. # [21:38] <maikmerten> Hixie: however, the point you may be pointing at is "so, how transparent is this?"
  435. # [21:38] <maikmerten> and sure, that's where it may look not as nice as ISO, no doubt about that
  436. # [21:40] <maikmerten> and, no doubt about that: If ISO would have a standard with fitting licensing we wouldn't have all these problems
  437. # [21:40] <Philip`> Before such reform, hopefully browsers will start plugging into their platform's media functionality so I can watch high-quality video (in any browser, in any practical OS, with only a trivial cost added to the purchase of the computer for codec licensing) and the browser vendors won't have to worry about the patents
  438. # [21:40] <maikmerten> (and Theora wouldn't even exist)
  439. # [21:40] <Hixie> maikmerten: so what happens if microsoft comes along and asks for something to change in the spec?
  440. # [21:40] <maikmerten> but apparently there *is* no international standards body really intersted in royality free standards
  441. # [21:40] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah that seems to be happening
  442. # [21:41] <Philip`> (Sadly my version of Vista doesn't even include DVD codecs, so I guess it'll be a while before H.264 is available as standard)
  443. # [21:41] * Quits: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c09c49.dyn.optonline.net) ("ciao")
  444. # [21:41] <maikmerten> Hixie: well, what if Microsoft wants a nicely crafted standard to become an ISO standard? ;-)
  445. # [21:42] <Philip`> (but that's okay because people can just write a Flash implementation of <video>)
  446. # [21:42] <Hixie> maikmerten: believe me, i'm as upset as anyone over the debacle that was ooxml
  447. # [21:42] <maikmerten> Hixie: and believe me, if there were a free ISO standard I'd be all for it
  448. # [21:42] <maikmerten> Hixie: I can see the benefits of ISO standards
  449. # [21:43] <maikmerten> more transparency
  450. # [21:43] <Hixie> i dunno about transparency
  451. # [21:43] <Hixie> but yeah
  452. # [21:43] <maikmerten> less dependency on single entities
  453. # [21:43] <Hixie> i'd love to use theora, and indeed the spec used to require it
  454. # [21:43] <maikmerten> well, at least for members, I guess
  455. # [21:43] <Hixie> it's just not a practical option
  456. # [21:43] <Hixie> big vendors won't implement it
  457. # [21:43] <Hixie> at the end of the day it doesn't matter what their reason
  458. # [21:43] <Hixie> is
  459. # [21:44] <Hixie> if the big vendors don't implement it, we don't get interop, and we've failed
  460. # [21:44] <maikmerten> that's very true, I guess
  461. # [21:44] <maikmerten> well, too bad nobody actually discloses anything
  462. # [21:44] <Hixie> as i keep telling people, we spec writers are only powerful so long as we tell the vendors to do what they want to do anyway :-)
  463. # [21:44] <Hixie> yeah
  464. # [21:44] <Hixie> the video thing is a pain
  465. # [21:45] <Hixie> but there is progress being made, albeit very slowly
  466. # [21:45] <Hixie> very, very slowly
  467. # [21:45] <maikmerten> if somebody actually *knew* flaws in the Theora spec it would help to communicate this
  468. # [21:45] <Philip`> Hixie: That's not necessarily failure - the big vendor could become a small vendor, because all their users leave for browsers that do implement the spec, and then it'd be a success
  469. # [21:45] <maikmerten> so the spec can be revised and adoption of the flawed iteration can be discouraged
  470. # [21:46] <Hixie> Philip`: also, god could exist
  471. # [21:46] <maikmerten> all what is visible is information from "video experts" leaking, which could very well just be staged (nah, that doesn't mean you Hixie)
  472. # [21:46] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm not praying for either :-)
  473. # [21:47] <Hixie> maikmerten: yeah, i wish people were more forthcoming
  474. # [21:47] <Hixie> maikmerten: but like i said, there are legal reasons why people can't say what they know
  475. # [21:47] <hsivonen> btw, the Finnish public broadcaster is switching from WMV9 to H.264 now that Flash does H.264
  476. # [21:47] <maikmerten> Hixie: yeah, and it's sad the whole system is that broken
  477. # [21:47] <Hixie> maikmerten: i've been in meetings about stuff like this where everyone knows something but everyone is under different NDAs about it and so everyone pretends to everyone else not to know it
  478. # [21:48] <maikmerten> Hixie: anyway, thanks alot for taking the time and elaborating
  479. # [21:48] <Hixie> maikmerten: and despite the fact that each person in the room has privately told me that they know of it, they can't speak of it
  480. # [21:48] <Hixie> maikmerten: bugs the hell out of me
  481. # [21:48] <Hixie> maikmerten: np
  482. # [21:48] <maikmerten> I see
  483. # [21:48] <maikmerten> scary
  484. # [21:48] <Hixie> yeah
  485. # [21:48] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  486. # [21:48] <Philip`> Hixie: If HTML5 drags on for as long as you say it will, there's no chance that the current big vendors will still be the big vendors by that time, and probably not a great chance that they'll all even exist :-)
  487. # [21:49] <Hixie> Philip`: i don't think microsoft, nokia, apple, and other such companies are likely to quit being relevant in the next 20 years
  488. # [21:51] <Lachy> JohnResig, re your selectors api feedback, I'm not convinced it's a good idea to change the spec so significantly as you suggest. I designed it the way it is for a reason.
  489. # [21:51] <Philip`> Hixie: It's not about being generally relevant, it's about being relevant in the context of developing web browsers, which is a much more fragile thing since it won't survive when an organisation tries to significantly reposition itself in the market
  490. # [21:52] <Lachy> JohnResig, however, I'm am convinced we need to define :scope sooner rather than later, which would solve all use cases you presented without sacrificing any features
  491. # [21:52] <Hixie> Philip`: the only way e.g. microsoft is getting out of the browser game is if they beat us with one of their own proprietary platforms
  492. # [21:52] <Hixie> Philip`: in which case, it doesn't matter what we say
  493. # [21:54] <Philip`> Hixie: They got out of the browser game after IE6, and that wasn't after having beaten the web platform
  494. # [21:54] <Hixie> they didn't get out of the browser game, they had the entire market
  495. # [21:55] <Hixie> indeed, arguably, it _was_ after having beaten the web platform
  496. # [21:55] <Hixie> though not in the sense i meant earlier
  497. # [21:55] <Philip`> Stopping all development doesn't sound particularly like being in the game
  498. # [21:55] <Hixie> it's a funny way to play the game
  499. # [21:55] <Hixie> it worked for them for several years
  500. # [21:57] <Philip`> If you're playing a game and then press the Pause key for several years, are you still playing it all that time?
  501. # [21:57] <Philip`> If so, I've played far too many games while I've been asleep in bed :-(
  502. # [21:57] <jgraham_> Philip`: They were still in the game, they just thought they didn't need to play anymore. I guess they regret that now
  503. # [21:58] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  504. # [22:00] <Philip`> Anyway, I still really very much hope we won't still be using IE and Firefox and Safari and Opera in 2028 :-)
  505. # [22:02] <Hixie> i see no evidence to suggest we'll be using anything else
  506. # [22:02] * Parts: Henri1 (n=Henrik@0x573bbf5a.ronqu1.broadband.tele.dk)
  507. # [22:03] <Philip`> You could look at what web browsers we were using in 1988, and assume (in the absence of evidence otherwise) that things will change just as significantly in the future
  508. # [22:03] <jgraham_> Philip`: Not a fair comparison. But it's reasonable to say we're not using much of the Netscape 1 codebase anymore
  509. # [22:03] <Hixie> IE, Netscape, and Opera?
  510. # [22:03] <Philip`> jgraham_: Why is that unfair?
  511. # [22:03] <Hixie> there's one new browser
  512. # [22:04] * gsnedders tries to remember 1988
  513. # [22:04] * gsnedders fails
  514. # [22:04] <Hixie> oh, 1988
  515. # [22:04] <Hixie> not 1998
  516. # [22:04] <Philip`> Comparing to 1998 would be unfair :-)
  517. # [22:04] <Philip`> and would destroy my argument
  518. # [22:04] <jgraham_> 1988 was before the web existed, so the legacy didn't exist at all
  519. # [22:04] <Hixie> the first few years of any technology is radical
  520. # [22:04] <Hixie> we're in a much more mature stage now
  521. # [22:04] <Hixie> compare word processors now to 20 years ago
  522. # [22:04] <Hixie> there's not much difference
  523. # [22:04] <Hixie> word perfect got replaced by pages
  524. # [22:05] <Hixie> that's about it
  525. # [22:05] <Philip`> Compare floppy disks now to 20 years ago
  526. # [22:05] <Lachy> Hixie, sure there is. MS Word is a lot more bloated now.
  527. # [22:05] <Hixie> still big companies, etc
  528. # [22:05] * Joins: maikmerten__ (n=chatzill@T6914.t.pppool.de)
  529. # [22:05] <Hixie> Lachy: :-)
  530. # [22:05] <Hixie> ok for canvas text my proposal is:
  531. # [22:05] <Philip`> Floppies have gone past the mature stage and died out, despite the legacy of billions of disks with software and data on them
  532. # [22:05] <Philip`> (where "billions" is an utterly made up number)
  533. # [22:05] <hsivonen> including data in WriteNow files
  534. # [22:05] <Hixie> drawHString(x, y, maxWidth, textAlign, s); and drawHString(x, y, maxHeight, textAlign, s);
  535. # [22:05] <Philip`> (but it's a reasonable extrapolation from how many I have at home)
  536. # [22:06] <Hixie> er
  537. # [22:06] <Hixie> drawVString(...) for the second one
  538. # [22:06] * jgraham_ chooses COBOL and mainframes as his legacy technologies
  539. # [22:06] <jgraham_> (that still exist as they did 20 years ago)
  540. # [22:06] <Hixie> Philip`: we'll see :-)
  541. # [22:06] <Hixie> Philip`: i don't think designing html5 with the assumption that the current players will be replaced would work, though (c.f. xhtml2)
  542. # [22:07] <Hixie> comment on drawHString() and drawVString() while i go have lunch. :-D
  543. # [22:07] <Hixie> bbl
  544. # [22:08] <Lachy> what's the difference between them? drawVString for vertical stings where the letters are stacked on top of each other, and not just rotated 90 deg?
  545. # [22:09] * hsivonen finds http://www.legacyj.com/lgcyj_perc1.html
  546. # [22:09] <Philip`> Hixie: They look complex and hard to use :-p
  547. # [22:09] <Philip`> compared to e.g. translate(x,y);drawString(s)
  548. # [22:10] <Philip`> Anyway, it'd be useful to know what use cases they're meant to be handling
  549. # [22:12] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  550. # [22:13] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86)
  551. # [22:13] <Lachy> Philip`, labelling graphs would be a typical use case for text, which is currently achieved by positioning elements over the canvas
  552. # [22:13] <Philip`> and the interesting bits are in fonts and styles and sizes and measuring
  553. # [22:14] <Philip`> which are currently unspecified and therefore hard to comment on :-)
  554. # [22:14] <Lachy> the problem it solves is that it makes the text actually part of the image, and so it can be exported and saved without losing the text labels
  555. # [22:15] <Philip`> Lachy: Simplicity of implementation sounds like a more relevant concern in that case - I've heard people complaining that they need complicated hacks to do text, but I don't think I've ever heard them complaining that it makes exporting images hard
  556. # [22:16] <Lachy> complexity is just another problem it solves
  557. # [22:17] <Lachy> (assuming the solution we creation isn't too complex)
  558. # [22:17] <Lachy> *create
  559. # [22:17] * Joins: maikmerten___ (n=chatzill@T6914.t.pppool.de)
  560. # [22:20] <Philip`> My semi-practical use case is displaying characters' names above their heads in an FPS game, with the name being obscured by closer walls (hence it's not possible to overlay an HTML element, except with horribly evil clipping hacks)
  561. # [22:21] <Philip`> What are the use cases for writing large unformatted chunks of wrapped text?
  562. # [22:22] * Quits: maikmerten (n=chatzill@T6914.t.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  563. # [22:22] * maikmerten___ is now known as maikmerten
  564. # [22:24] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  565. # [22:25] * Quits: maikmerten (n=chatzill@T6914.t.pppool.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
  566. # [22:25] <Philip`> (Oh, I suppose I also want text for an FPS game's HUD, mostly just with big numbers for the health and ammo counts in a nice font)
  567. # [22:27] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  568. # [22:34] * Quits: maikmerten__ (n=chatzill@T6914.t.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  569. # [22:52] <JohnResig> Lachy: you should probably say as much on the mailing list, so we can discuss it there
  570. # [22:59] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8a403f9d2694170c) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  571. # [23:05] <htmlfivedotnet> Hixie: What about: drawString(s, x, y, (align='horizontal'), (maxSize='null'), (textAlign='left') ) - if that even makes sense...
  572. # [23:25] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  573. # [23:28] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  574. # [23:28] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-f1e6328ee033494e)
  575. # [23:28] <Hixie> lachy: drawVString() would be for vertical text (e.g. some CJK)
  576. # [23:29] <Hixie> htmlfivedotnet: yeah, i considered that, but i didn't want to have the author have to put in a long keyword for the direction
  577. # [23:30] <Hixie> also you're not going to be switching between them, really
  578. # [23:30] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip98.unival.com) (".")
  579. # [23:30] <Hixie> Philip`: the x and y arguments are in line with how the rest of the API takes coordinates
  580. # [23:30] <Hixie> Philip`: you don't translate then rect(width, height), e.g.
  581. # [23:31] <Philip`> Hixie: Ah, yes, that's a confusing part of the mozDrawText API
  582. # [23:31] <Philip`> so I'll modify my proposal to drawString(s, x, y) :-)
  583. # [23:32] <htmlfivedotnet> my thought was just that certain properties would be used more frequently, and having defaults would keep it cleaner unless it needed to be more complex.
  584. # [23:32] <Philip`> (plus a couple of properties that I'm not mentioning now)
  585. # [23:32] <Hixie> well, there are three things we want to avoid
  586. # [23:32] <Hixie> one is lack of support for vertical text :-)
  587. # [23:32] <htmlfivedotnet> and i personally hate having 3 functions that do essesntially the same thing... ala PHP
  588. # [23:32] <Philip`> One is complexity, given that graph axis labelling is about the only use case
  589. # [23:32] <Hixie> another is text being affected by different font metrics and being unviewable
  590. # [23:33] <Hixie> and the other is making sure graph axes can be lined up correctly (so we need left/right/center alignment)
  591. # [23:33] * Joins: webben (n=benh@81.168.10.233)
  592. # [23:33] <Hixie> i don't think drawHString(x, y, width, 'left', 'text') is really that complex
  593. # [23:34] <Philip`> For graphs you need top/center/bottom too (measured at 'sensible' points like ascent height / median / baseline, not on the bounding box)
  594. # [23:34] * Quits: webben (n=benh@81.168.10.233) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  595. # [23:34] <Hixie> hmm
  596. # [23:34] <Hixie> yes
  597. # [23:34] <Hixie> good point
  598. # [23:34] * Joins: webben (n=benh@81.168.10.233)
  599. # [23:35] <Philip`> I'd like to see a labelled graph using vertical CJK...
  600. # [23:35] <Hixie> no idea how to search for that
  601. # [23:36] <Philip`> Look at lots of graphs. If you don't find any vertical CJK ones, it's not a "95% of use cases" situation and isn't worth the complexity :-)
  602. # [23:37] <Hixie> i have no idea how to avoid sample bias
  603. # [23:37] <Hixie> for this case
  604. # [23:37] <Philip`> (I'd guess they'd use LTR decimal numbers anyway)
  605. # [23:37] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-175-169.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  606. # [23:41] <Philip`> How do you suggest setting font family/style/weight/size?
  607. # [23:41] <htmlfivedotnet> http://www.honda.co.jp/PARTNER/SP/environment/image/bargraph_image.gif
  608. # [23:41] <Hixie> Philip`: .fontStyle = ''
  609. # [23:41] <Hixie> htmlfivedotnet: ooo
  610. # [23:41] <htmlfivedotnet> lol
  611. # [23:41] <Philip`> What happens when text is wider than 'width'?
  612. # [23:42] <Hixie> Philip`: ua tries condensing the font, first using actual condensed fonts, then using horizontal scaling, and if a reasonable amount of that doesn't help either, shrinks the font size
  613. # [23:43] <Philip`> Can I set width == Infinity when I don't want the browser to mess with things?
  614. # [23:43] <Hixie> why would you ever want it to go off the side of the viewport
  615. # [23:43] <Hixie> ?
  616. # [23:44] <Hixie> http://www.osaka-gaidai.ac.jp/houzinnsosiki_kakudai.html has vertical text in a chart
  617. # [23:44] <Hixie> http://www.lac.co.jp/img/siodome_j.gif too, i think
  618. # [23:45] <Hixie> the rightmost blue block (train stop?) looks like it has vertical glyphs
  619. # [23:45] <Hixie> though they are rotated to the point of almost being horizontal :-/
  620. # [23:45] <Philip`> Hixie: I'd want that when writing Google Maps in <canvas>, where text is off the side of the screen and the user can scroll or zoom to read it
  621. # [23:45] <svl> /join #ubuntu
  622. # [23:45] <svl> urgh
  623. # [23:45] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  624. # [23:46] <Hixie> Philip`: even with google maps i'd wager we always want the text to be within a sane bounding box
  625. # [23:47] <Philip`> Hixie: That siodome_j.gif would need both max-width and max-height, else the text might end up overlapping its containing box in an ugly way
  626. # [23:47] <htmlfivedotnet> Hixie: so the 'width' property is a maximum, not an absolute?
  627. # [23:47] <Dashiva> It's a suggestion
  628. # [23:48] <Philip`> Hixie: Google Maps lets me go hundreds of thousands of kilometres sideways, and the text always stays static in relation to the background
  629. # [23:48] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  630. # [23:48] <Hixie> Philip`: well you set the font size, so you know the likely width (given that they're square and there's no line wrapping)
  631. # [23:48] <Hixie> htmlfivedotnet: max width, right
  632. # [23:48] <Hixie> Philip`: so?
  633. # [23:50] <Philip`> Hixie: Why is it sufficient to know the likely width given the font size in that case, whereas it's not sufficient in the normal drawHString case for authors to know the likely width and choose sizes/positions appropriately themselves (hence requiring the max-width parameter)?
  634. # [23:51] <htmlfivedotnet> Phlip: I think he's saying you would still want to set the maxwidth to say.... 100px. if it ends up off the field of view, fine, but if there is a town like "html5landvilleshiretownsylvania", it would take up half the screen if it wasn't made smaller.
  635. # [23:52] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm arguing that it's always normal to have a reasonable idea of your glyph extents in the block progression direction but not reasonable to guarentee that you'll fit in the inline progression direction.
  636. # [23:53] <Hixie> because given a font-size, your font metrics in the block progression direction are usually around the same as the font size but in the inline progression direction can vary considerably, and will vary in a way that is compounded with every glyph.
  637. # [23:53] <Hixie> (your typical iii vs www case for non-monospace text)
  638. # [23:54] <Philip`> Okay, sounds reasonable
  639. # [23:55] <Hixie> i wonder how to handle your case of wanting to line up text relative to the ascent top rather than the baseline
  640. # [23:56] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  641. # [23:58] <Philip`> Would it be feasible to use @font-face { src: ... } to define a font that could be used in the canvas?
  642. # [23:59] <Hixie> i expect we could define that to work, yes
  643. # [23:59] <Hixie> in fact i was planning on hooking straight into the css render model for this
  644. # Session Close: Fri May 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)