/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 07 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: alp (n=alp@host-84-9-44-207.dslgb.com)
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  5. # [00:00] <Philip`> Just put a CC licence on your work, and then people will happily share it and fail to follow the licence's requirements
  6. # [00:01] <jruderman> lol
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> in this particular case it was about the copyright on screenshots of the acid3 test
  8. # [00:01] <Lachy> ok, that's insane.
  9. # [00:01] <Hixie> which i wouldn't own the copyright on even if it COULD be copyrighted which as far as i can tell it can't!
  10. # [00:01] <Lachy> doesn't everyone know acid 3 is in the public domain?
  11. # [00:01] <Hixie> it's a page for testing interop! as far as i know it can't be copyrighted! anything you do with it is fair use for interop!
  12. # [00:02] <Hixie> grrr
  13. # [00:02] <Philip`> Publishing screenshots of Acid 3 on Wikipedia isn't for interoperability
  14. # [00:02] <Lachy> the W3C would disagree with that, given their recent discussions about the css test suite licence
  15. # [00:03] <Hixie> the w3c smokes too much crack
  16. # [00:03] <Lachy> LOL
  17. # [00:03] <Hixie> and is also pissing me off
  18. # [00:04] <Hixie> (regarding the testsuite stuff, and various other things)
  19. # [00:04] <gsnedders> No, the people in GTA4 smoke too much crack :)
  20. # [00:04] <gsnedders> The W3C ain't got nothing on them.
  21. # [00:05] * Lachy wonders if there's crack dealers in the game to make it more realistic?
  22. # [00:05] <gsnedders> Yeah. Some get murdered, too. Also realism.
  23. # [00:06] <Lachy> cool
  24. # [00:06] * gsnedders has actually almost finished the story line
  25. # [00:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: There's a slight difference in that the W3C exists in real life, rather than in a satirical video game
  26. # [00:06] <gsnedders> A single week for a GTA game? That's a bit too quick.
  27. # [00:06] <jgraham__> What's the deal with the CSS testsuite license?
  28. # [00:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: Sssh!
  29. # [00:07] <Philip`> (unless the W3C exists in the game too)
  30. # [00:07] <gsnedders> I dunno. The Web does.
  31. # [00:07] <Philip`> (which wouldn't surprise me)
  32. # [00:07] <gsnedders> Heck, Web 2.0 exists in the game!
  33. # [00:07] <Lachy> when I was younger, I had games on the super nintendo that took me several weeks, if not months to finish. What the hell is wrong with these game companies these days, making such short games?
  34. # [00:07] <gsnedders> (and Radio 2.0 too)
  35. # [00:07] <gsnedders> Lachy: +1
  36. # [00:07] <Philip`> Lachy: The problem is with people spending too much time playing the game, so it's over too quickly :-)
  37. # [00:07] <Hixie> there are some pretty hilarious radio spots in gta4 talking about web 2.0
  38. # [00:08] <gsnedders> Lachy: I completed the entire NFS: Carbon the weekend before last (as last weekend it was GTA4)
  39. # [00:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: Totally.
  40. # [00:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: Doesn't one mention [Something] 3.14?
  41. # [00:08] * jgraham__ totally sucks at computer games
  42. # [00:08] * gsnedders totally sucks at computer games with the exception of racing games, in which he rules
  43. # [00:08] <Philip`> Oblivion isn't short
  44. # [00:09] <Philip`> I think I've spent something like 200 hours on that
  45. # [00:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, but there are so few long games now :P
  46. # [00:09] <Lachy> gsnedders, yep, Web Pi is coming soon
  47. # [00:09] * gsnedders must be up to around 40 hours on GTA4 since last Tues
  48. # [00:09] <gsnedders> This is ideal timing. Just before my exams :P
  49. # [00:09] <gsnedders> Lachy: It's Web Pi? Ah.
  50. # [00:10] <Lachy> gsnedders, didn't you get that's what 3.14 refers to?
  51. # [00:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: I was busy trying to kill someone in another car when I heard the 3.14 shortly after the mention of Web 2.0
  52. # [00:10] <Lachy> I have a shirt that says "Wake me for Web 3.14" on it
  53. # [00:11] <Lachy> there's a photo of it on flickr
  54. # [00:11] <gsnedders> Lachy: Quite low precision π, then
  55. # [00:12] <Lachy> no, mathematicians realised that memorising an infinite number of decimal places was too hard, so they truncated it.
  56. # [00:12] <gsnedders> Lachy: memorising an infinite number of decimal places is hard? I never realised.
  57. # [00:12] <jgraham__> Maybe we could do HTML2π — circular edition after HTML5
  58. # [00:12] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Not HTML2πr?
  59. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Then we know the size of our circle.
  60. # [00:13] <jgraham__> r=1; it's a unit circle (the best kind)
  61. # [00:13] <Lachy> 2π ~= 6.38, so that's a good version number to follow 5
  62. # [00:13] * Philip` sees 98 hours 37 minutes 55 seconds spent on Advance Wars: DS, which is probably quite high up his list of games-ordered-by-time-wasted-on-them
  63. # [00:14] * gsnedders wonders which .+5 spec will be the first to 2π
  64. # [00:14] <jgraham__> Lachy: More like 6.28 :)
  65. # [00:14] <gsnedders> Gran Turismo is probably the highest for me
  66. # [00:14] <jgraham__> (allthough I let you off because of the ~)
  67. # [00:14] <Lachy> jgraham__, maybe in your universe :-)
  68. # [00:14] * Philip` thinks more games need to provide play timers
  69. # [00:14] * gsnedders doesn't want to know
  70. # [00:15] <Philip`> Ultima Online is probably the highest for me, since I played that for around a year, which is kind of scary
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  72. # [00:16] <gsnedders> I played NFS:HP2 for ages, but I doubt that is above GT3/4
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  88. # [01:54] <annevk> gsnedders, I've no idea, do you have a URI?
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  91. # [02:00] <Hixie> jgraham__: yt?
  92. # [02:02] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  93. # [02:04] <Hixie> Lachy: yt?
  94. # [02:04] <Lachy> Hixie, yo
  95. # [02:04] <Hixie> in 2005 you wanted some sort of namespacing system for profile=""
  96. # [02:04] <Hixie> do you still want me to reply to your feedback on that?
  97. # [02:04] <Lachy> I did?
  98. # [02:05] <Hixie> quoting:
  99. # [02:05] <Hixie> > If a solution can be found which allows for namespaces, but which does
  100. # [02:05] <Hixie> > not require them to be used in most cases, which doesn't introduce even
  101. # [02:05] <Hixie> > more problems, then I think that would probably be the best solution.
  102. # [02:05] <Lachy> ah, probably not. profile="" has proven useless. But if it were useful, I'd probably still agree with what I wrote
  103. # [02:06] <Hixie> k
  104. # [02:06] <Lachy> on second though, I don't like namespaces, so I change my mind
  105. # [02:06] * Hixie likes not replying to e-mails where the person has changed their mind, since it avoids the problem of other people jumping on the bandwagon
  106. # [02:07] <Hixie> :-)
  107. # [02:08] <Lachy> Hixie, do you have a simple command line script that submits a file to the csswg's spec post processor that I could use on my mac? My .bat file I use on windows won't work :-(
  108. # [02:09] <Hixie> i just use wget
  109. # [02:09] <annevk> curl -u USER:PASS -F file=@Overview.src.html -F group=none -F output=html -F method=file http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/process.cgi -o Overview.html
  110. # [02:10] <Lachy> yeah, I just used curl, but I don't want to have to type all those parameters each time
  111. # [02:10] <annevk> my command line remembers it for me...
  112. # [02:10] <Hixie> so put them in a shell script
  113. # [02:10] <Lachy> how do I do that?
  114. # [02:10] <Hixie> i have an .update.sh file that contains the line above
  115. # [02:10] * Lachy googles it
  116. # [02:10] <Hixie> (or rather, it's equivalent for wget)
  117. # [02:10] <Hixie> its
  118. # [02:10] <Hixie> its
  119. # [02:10] * Hixie takes the apostrophe out back and shoots it
  120. # [02:11] <Hixie> shell scripts are just like batch files
  121. # [02:11] <annevk> you're showing typical GTA syndroms :p
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  123. # [02:11] <Hixie> but they work on your shell (e.g. bash) instead of on the dos shell
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  126. # [02:14] <Lachy> I have written shell scripts a few years ago, but that was in first year of uni 6 years ago and I haven't used linux much since then
  127. # [02:14] <Lachy> I've just forgotten all this stuff
  128. # [02:14] <Hixie> yeah well i never learnt it
  129. # [02:14] <Hixie> i make it up as i go along :-D
  130. # [02:14] <Lachy> woah, 7 years ago
  131. # [02:14] <Lachy> crap, I'm getting old now...
  132. # [02:14] <Hixie> and fall back on perl whenever i want to do something useful
  133. # [02:16] <Lachy> ok, is there anything special I need to do to make sure my .update.sh file never inadvertently gets commited to CVS, or is it enough that it's a hidden file?
  134. # [02:16] <Hixie> don't cvs add it
  135. # [02:16] <Hixie> :-)
  136. # [02:16] <Lachy> ok
  137. # [02:34] <Philip`> Why ".update.sh" and not just "update.sh"?
  138. # [02:35] <Hixie> so that you can't download it on my site
  139. # [02:35] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.update.sh
  140. # [02:35] <Hixie> i block anything starting with a dot
  141. # [02:35] <Hixie> also so it doesn't appear in the middle of directory listings
  142. # [02:35] <Philip`> Aha
  143. # [02:37] <Philip`> Lachy: You can also create a .cvsignore file in a directory (as in http://docs.freebsd.org/info/cvs/cvs.info.cvsignore.html ) to make cvs automatically ignore particular files
  144. # [02:39] * Joins: roc (n=roc@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  145. # [02:39] * Hixie drives the final nail into profile=""'s coffin
  146. # [02:42] * Lachy waits for people to try and pull that nail out
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  149. # [02:52] <Lachy> ok, looks like that nails in pretty tight. Which section is next?
  150. # [02:52] <Hixie> any requests?
  151. # [02:53] <Lachy> hmm, let me check the issues list...
  152. # [02:54] <Facedown> Hixie - were you the vim user?
  153. # [02:54] <Hixie> no
  154. # [02:54] <Facedown> oh
  155. # [02:54] <Hixie> emacs all the way
  156. # [02:54] <Facedown> hehe
  157. # [02:54] <Hixie> though i hear someone implemented vi in javascript
  158. # [02:54] <Facedown> indeed
  159. # [02:54] <Facedown> its slow but its functional
  160. # [02:54] <Facedown> pretty amazing
  161. # [02:54] <Facedown> just like the mario game
  162. # [02:54] <Hixie> heh
  163. # [02:55] <Facedown> will i get killed if i ask a ie6/layout question in here?
  164. # [02:55] <Facedown> heh
  165. # [02:55] <Hixie> no
  166. # [02:55] <Facedown> s/killed/stoned
  167. # [02:55] <Hixie> though people might not be able to help :-)
  168. # [02:55] <Facedown> I'm trying to absolutely position the navigation element on top of #around-content which is floated and has width of 100%. The reason for the float and width is because I'm using that as a wrapper for a negative margin layout. IE6 seems to hide the nav (probably underneath) the floated el if it has a width of 99.6% or higher -> http://pastie.caboo.se/190178
  169. # [02:56] <Hixie> i recommend trying another browser
  170. # [02:56] <Facedown> heh
  171. # [02:56] <Hixie> told you we might not be able to help :-P
  172. # [02:58] <htmlfivedotnet> facedown: I think you'll need to set the height
  173. # [02:59] <Lachy> I don't have IE6 available to test it, so I can't help
  174. # [02:59] * htmlfivedotnet boots virtualbox
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  176. # [02:59] * htmlfivedotnet recompiles virtual box for 2.6.24-17
  177. # [02:59] <Lachy> Hixie, how about finishing off the semantics-phrasing-* folders?
  178. # [02:59] <Facedown> htmlfivedotnet - why height?
  179. # [02:59] <Facedown> hmm
  180. # [03:00] <htmlfivedotnet> because you're using IE6 lol
  181. # [03:00] <Facedown> height triggers layout.. i dont see how it could make it show up
  182. # [03:00] <Facedown> position:absolute already triggers layout by default though
  183. # [03:01] <Hixie> Lachy: any in particular?
  184. # [03:01] <htmlfivedotnet> well try it out, if it doesn't work, you can flame me lol
  185. # [03:01] <Facedown> will do
  186. # [03:01] <htmlfivedotnet> i'm booting up my winxp to try a few things
  187. # [03:01] <htmlfivedotnet> but i have to recompile, because i upgraded my kernel
  188. # [03:02] <Philip`> htmlfivedotnet: You wouldn't get all these kernel problems if you just used Windows
  189. # [03:02] <Lachy> Hixie, didn't you already do the -abbr ones recently?
  190. # [03:02] <Lachy> I thought you removed folders and their messages once they were dealt with
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  192. # [03:03] <htmlfivedotnet> Philip`: True
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  194. # [03:05] <Hixie> Lachy: i do
  195. # [03:05] <Hixie> Lachy: if there is still a folder, it means there was more feedback
  196. # [03:05] <Hixie> there usually is new feedback immediately after i deal with a section
  197. # [03:07] <Lachy> you could clear out the datatemplates folder now, since there's only 2 in there and the sectino was dropped.
  198. # [03:08] <Hixie> i want to wait until i drop repetition blocks
  199. # [03:08] <Lachy> ok
  200. # [03:08] <Hixie> otherwise people think one is in and the other is not
  201. # [03:09] <Lachy> what about accesskey? Any idea what you're going to do about that yet?
  202. # [03:10] <Hixie> i don't know what to do about accesskey
  203. # [03:10] <Lachy> it would be nice if the issues list displayed the dates, so I could more easily tell which were new discussions and which are old
  204. # [03:10] <Hixie> heh
  205. # [03:10] <Hixie> it shouldn't matter :-)
  206. # [03:11] <Philip`> Lachy: You could write a script that correlates the message-IDs against the list archives to work out exactly when each message was posted
  207. # [03:11] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm too lazy for that
  208. # [03:12] <Philip`> You could just add it to http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/source if you wanted :-)
  209. # [03:13] <Lachy> I would have to learn perl first
  210. # [03:13] <Philip`> It's just like Python but with some symbols added
  211. # [03:13] <Lachy> and since the syntax of perl is incomprehensible, that doesn't seem likely any time soon
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  213. # [03:13] <Philip`> It's not at all incomprehensible :-(
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  216. # [03:15] <htmlfivedotnet> english is incomprehensible to those who have never tried to learn it.
  217. # [03:15] <htmlfivedotnet> but then again, even those who have tried might still say the same
  218. # [03:15] <Lachy> woah, "open my $f, $0 or die" is a bit demanding isn't it? Couldn't you say please instead of threatening?
  219. # [03:16] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-11-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  220. # [03:17] <Hixie> that's better written as my $f; open($f, '<', $0) or die;
  221. # [03:17] <Hixie> but frankly that's pretty obscure perl
  222. # [03:17] <Hixie> whoever wrote that clearly doesn't have good perl readability guidelines
  223. # [03:17] <Hixie> :-)
  224. # [03:17] <Philip`> I disagree with your judgement of "better" :-)
  225. # [03:18] <htmlfivedotnet> Philip`: I get a higher "windows experience index" score when running Vista in a virtual machine, then i do when i install it directly. obviously, not in the video, but everything else is about 25% higher
  226. # [03:18] <Philip`> There's no point in wasting semicolons and brackets
  227. # [03:18] <Philip`> htmlfivedotnet: Maybe the virtual machine is running the virtual clock 25% slower than real-time? :-)
  228. # [03:19] <htmlfivedotnet> Philip`: Damn. You got me.
  229. # [03:20] <Hixie> Philip`: does opening $0 open the __DATA__ stream or does it open the script itself?
  230. # [03:20] <Lachy> htmlfivedotnet, that's probably because the virtual machine software your using is a slow piece of crap. Are you using the Microsoft VirtualMachine?
  231. # [03:20] <Philip`> Hixie: $0 is just the script's filename, so it reads it as a normal file and doesn't do anything clever
  232. # [03:20] <Lachy> Virtual PC, I mean
  233. # [03:21] <htmlfivedotnet> Lachy: Yeah. I'm running it in Wine lol
  234. # [03:21] <Philip`> (Not a particularly robust way of reading the script, since the working directory might be elsewhere, but it works for this CGI thing)
  235. # [03:22] <Hixie> Philip`: k
  236. # [03:22] <Hixie> so er, why are you reading your own script? :-)
  237. # [03:22] <Hixie> that's pretty universally not good practice in _any_ language :-P
  238. # [03:22] <Lachy> ah, ok. You should try VMWare, if it's available for Linux. I use VMWare Fusion on Mac, and it's great.
  239. # [03:22] <Philip`> Hixie: So that http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/source works
  240. # [03:22] <Hixie> oh, i see
  241. # [03:22] <Hixie> yeah that seems fair enough
  242. # [03:23] <othermaciej> does anyone here know of cool looking web apps done with standards-based technology?
  243. # [03:23] <Lachy> htmlfivedotnet, or you could try a virtual machine program written natively for linux
  244. # [03:23] <othermaciej> (preferably ones that are actually useful, not just demos)
  245. # [03:24] <htmlfivedotnet> Lachy: I was kidding. I use virtualbox ose. mainly because i can apt-get install it
  246. # [03:24] <Philip`> I used to use VMware on Linux, but then I upgraded my kernel and couldn't get it to run without crashing my entire machine, so I gave up
  247. # [03:25] <Lachy> othermaciej, timwouldlickit.com is funny and useful :-) (though probably not qutie what you're looking for)
  248. # [03:26] <htmlfivedotnet> Philip`: it's just a matter of recompiling the module, and remembering where the heck the source files are to do so
  249. # [03:26] <htmlfivedotnet> othermaciej: there was one that would generate a random "web 2.0" startup company name, but i can't remember the name of it
  250. # [03:27] <Lachy> htmlfivedotnet, there are several of those
  251. # [03:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: without being able to use 'window' or XMLHttpRequest, it's hard to make a cool looking web app
  252. # [03:28] <Hixie> Lachy: ok, got rid of the phrasing folder
  253. # [03:28] <Hixie> not sure what to do about ruby
  254. # [03:28] <Hixie> (didn't get rid of hte phrasing subfolders)
  255. # [03:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: I would not consider either of those things an obstacle to consider something to be done with "standards-based technology"
  256. # [03:29] <Hixie> oh
  257. # [03:29] <Hixie> well then
  258. # [03:29] <othermaciej> I maily meant to say "not Flash"
  259. # [03:29] <Hixie> GMail!
  260. # [03:29] <othermaciej> as opposed to "only RECs"
  261. # [03:29] <Hixie> Google Maps!
  262. # [03:29] <Hixie> Google Calendar!
  263. # [03:29] <Hixie> GMail has flash for the IM part, but that's all
  264. # [03:30] <Hixie> Google Reader
  265. # [03:30] <Philip`> Microsoft Windows Live Local
  266. # [03:30] <Hixie> Google Docs (probably has flash for some of the comms stuff)
  267. # [03:30] <Hixie> in fact, http://www.google.com/options/
  268. # [03:30] <Hixie> :-)
  269. # [03:30] <Lachy> oh, I saw a list of the top 100 web apps a few weeks ago. I wonder if I can find that
  270. # [03:30] <othermaciej> GMail is useful but not all that cool looking
  271. # [03:31] <Philip`> Microsoft Office Live Workspace
  272. # [03:31] <Philip`> (Beta)
  273. # [03:35] <htmlfivedotnet> facedown: still there?
  274. # [03:36] <Lachy> Hixie, how come the phrasing folder is still showing up in the issues list then?
  275. # [03:36] <Hixie> the issues list is updated nightly
  276. # [03:36] <Lachy> ok
  277. # [03:36] <Lachy> I thought it was live
  278. # [03:36] <Hixie> no, that would kill my imap server
  279. # [03:36] <htmlfivedotnet> facedown: adding a "clear" to the nav element makes it show up. who knows why. it doesn't make any sense, but it worked
  280. # [03:37] <Lachy> wasn't it live originally? Did you take away that feature
  281. # [03:37] <Philip`> Hixie: Isn't IMAP designed to have clients maintain connections and get immediate notifications of changes?
  282. # [03:38] <Hixie> Philip`: probably
  283. # [03:38] <Hixie> Lachy: the voting is live
  284. # [03:38] <Hixie> Lachy: the list has always been static, though
  285. # [03:38] <Hixie> Philip`: but i have enough trouble with just my own imap clients connecting to this server...
  286. # [03:39] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, okay
  287. # [03:39] <Lachy> ok, it's good that the voting is live. It's nice to be able to keep up with all the action as it happens there.
  288. # [03:39] <Hixie> hah
  289. # [03:40] <Philip`> How many issues have ever had multiple votes?
  290. # [03:42] <Lachy> there's 2 votes for mail in the microsyntaxes-numbers folder, and that puts it in the lead
  291. # [03:43] <Hixie> people seem to think that repeating their arguments is more effective than voting
  292. # [03:43] <Hixie> they're wrong
  293. # [03:43] <Hixie> it's certainly not more effective
  294. # [03:43] <Hixie> and may even be less effective, though the jury is still out on that one
  295. # [03:43] <Philip`> If they only post their argument once, they can only vote for it once
  296. # [03:44] <Hixie> voting for an argument twice _definitely_ has no more effect than voting for it once
  297. # [03:44] <Philip`> By posting multiple times they can vote on each instance, and they will combine into a single powerful super-vote
  298. # [03:44] <Lachy> Philip`, the votes don't add credibility to the argument, they only supposedly help with prioritisation
  299. # [03:45] <Philip`> Hanging around on IRC seems a more effective way to influence the spec's direction than voting
  300. # [03:45] <Hixie> if anything got real votes, it would indeed help prioritisation
  301. # [03:45] <Lachy> But, I question that since I voted for wf3-placeholder a long time ago, and it hasn't been touched
  302. # [03:45] <Hixie> webforms in general is blocked on anne and maciej
  303. # [03:45] <Lachy> yeah, I know
  304. # [03:45] <othermaciej> oh sure, blame me
  305. # [03:45] <Philip`> Maybe people should just vote on categories, not on individual messages
  306. # [03:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: :-P
  307. # [03:46] <Lachy> only 2 months till the forms-tf is finished
  308. # [03:46] <Philip`> since it's quite unlikely that several people will make the same choice out of three thousand possibilities
  309. # [03:46] <Lachy> then we'll get the results of all the amazing work they've been doing
  310. # [03:48] <Philip`> Have they decided yet whether HTML needs to support forms or not?
  311. # [03:49] <Philip`> I'm not sure native support for forms is worthwhile, since you can just emulate them with contentEditable and CSS and script
  312. # [03:49] <Philip`> (and use ARIA so it's accessible)
  313. # [03:50] <Hixie> the point of wf2 is to reduce the dependency on scripts
  314. # [03:50] <Lachy> what are the use cases that people are trying to solve with forms? Couldn't they be done more easily with an envelope and postage stamp?
  315. # [03:50] <htmlfivedotnet> Lachy: ... ? ... I agree.
  316. # [03:50] * Lachy must be getting tired; his jokes are getting bad.
  317. # [03:51] <Hixie> i disagree with the premise of your argument
  318. # [03:51] <Hixie> :-P
  319. # [03:51] * Quits: roc (n=roc@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  320. # [03:52] <Philip`> Hixie: Why is it pointful to reduce the dependency on scripts?
  321. # [03:52] <Hixie> it's easier to maintain scriptless markup
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  323. # [03:52] <Hixie> generally speaking
  324. # [03:52] <Hixie> (except when the scriptless markup reaches the point of being script in another disguise, of course, like xpath and xforms actions)
  325. # [03:52] <Philip`> I could make a spec whose point is to reduces web apps' dependency on the letter W
  326. # [03:53] <Philip`> So the point of WF2 isn't to reduce the dependency on scripts, it's to make markup easier to maintain? :-)
  327. # [03:53] <htmlfivedotnet> and write
  328. # [03:53] <Hixie> that's just a general language design principle
  329. # [03:54] <Philip`> s/reduces/reduce/
  330. # [03:54] <Lachy> Philip`, introducing new forms features to cover things that are commonly solved with scripts, such as datetime controls replacing calendar widgets, means that different authors won't have to spend time reimplementing them
  331. # [03:55] <Philip`> (I suppose the different is that there isn't an underlying useful point behind the point of reducing the W dependency)
  332. # [03:55] <Philip`> s/different/difference/
  333. # [03:55] * Philip` thinks he needs to go to sleep
  334. # [03:55] <Lachy> me too. I have to get up in 5 hours.
  335. # [03:55] <Lachy> good night
  336. # [03:56] <htmlfivedotnet> Philip`: I really don't think you're making any sense. I was trying to figure out what you were trying to figure out, but i figured out that you probably don't even know what you're trying to figure out
  337. # [03:57] * htmlfivedotnet is now known as dcostalis
  338. # [03:57] <Philip`> htmlfivedotnet: The figuring-out process isn't useful if I know in advance what I'm going to have figured out by the end :-)
  339. # [03:57] <Philip`> s/htmlfivedotnet:/dcostalis:/
  340. # [03:57] <dcostalis> lol
  341. # [03:58] <dcostalis> Philip`: is it my client, or am i still talking as htmlfivedotnet?
  342. # [03:59] <Philip`> dcostalis: My client says you're talking as dcostalis
  343. # [03:59] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080507#l-341 agrees
  344. # [03:59] * Hixie dons asbestos underwear
  345. # [04:00] <Hixie> ok lets see how many people i pissed off with my latest e-mail
  346. # [04:00] * Philip` re-aims his flames for a headshot
  347. # [04:00] <Hixie> i didn't tell you where i donned it
  348. # [04:01] <Philip`> That is a disturbing image
  349. # [04:01] <Hixie> hah
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  362. # [05:33] <Hixie> woot, crossed the 2500 barrier
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  368. # [05:57] <Facedown> 2500?
  369. # [06:04] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
  370. # [06:10] * othermaciej decides to try using the voting interface
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  374. # [06:11] <othermaciej> I just voted to encourage Hixie to consider his own feedback
  375. # [06:11] <othermaciej> for some reason that feels a little surreal
  376. # [06:12] <Hixie> which one?
  377. # [06:12] <othermaciej> the icon one
  378. # [06:12] <Hixie> oh heh
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  388. # [06:39] <Hixie> sqlite's handling of types is funny
  389. # [06:39] <Hixie> the documentation first says taht types are evil
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  391. # [06:41] <Hixie> and then goes on to list many ways in which it supports types
  392. # [06:41] <Hixie> "In SQLite version 3, the type of a value is associated with the value itself, not with the column or variable in which the value is stored. (This is sometimes called manifest typing.) All other SQL databases engines that we are aware of use the more restrictive system of static typing where the type is associated with the container, not the value."
  393. # [06:41] <Hixie> yes that's also known as BEING COMPLIANT WITH THE SPEC
  394. # [06:42] <Hixie> that has to be the funniest way of saying "we're the only non-compliant implementation we know of" that i've ever seen
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  399. # [06:44] <roc___> on trunk, both with and without my GM_ADVANCED patch, I get garbage for the line that uses the Courier bitmapped font. Is this something you have a fix for?
  400. # [06:45] <jruderman> weird. i thought static typing would be a huge help for perf in databases.
  401. # [06:45] <roc___> oo
  402. # [06:45] <roc___> ps
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  457. # [09:13] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547022
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  464. # [09:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: thanks for the Validome link
  465. # [09:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: Validator.nu already check root namespace and mime concordance, but for some reason I may have forgotten SVG from the list. thank
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  467. # [09:30] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: quite obviously, people don't understand what schema actually means, and so saying "using the schema for XHTML 1.0" when validating HTML 4.01 is confusing
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  469. # [09:32] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: perhaps the preset chooser should say "HTML 4.01 Strict/XHTML 1.0 Strict" and the info should say which ever is appropriate when choosing automatically?
  470. # [09:33] <zcorpan_> (or the info can say "XHTML 1.0/HTML 4.01" too i guess)
  471. # [09:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: seems reasonable even if technically not exactly correct
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  473. # [09:45] <Hixie> i don't think you need to prioritise technical accuracy in the ui, so long as you report th technically correct errors
  474. # [09:49] <Hixie> huh, WHATWG is also an acronym for "where have all the women gone"
  475. # [09:49] <Hixie> somewhat appropriate
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  485. # [10:37] * annevk reads http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0805070153400.15395@hixie.dreamhostps.com
  486. # [10:37] * annevk expects flame wars
  487. # [10:38] <Hixie> nothing except karl's e-mail so far
  488. # [10:38] <Philip`> That's what happens when you post flamebait :-p
  489. # [10:42] <annevk> 'Summary: profile="" doesn't work in practice so we have dropped it.' contradicts the clean-slate mantra
  490. # [10:43] <Hixie> no. html5 used to have it
  491. # [10:43] <Hixie> i then dropped it
  492. # [10:43] <Hixie> karl of course totally misunderstood what i meant by "doesn't work", as usual
  493. # [10:43] <annevk> ooh, it was in HTML5? interesting
  494. # [10:44] <Hixie> long ago
  495. # [10:44] <annevk> oh well, I don't care either way
  496. # [10:44] <Hixie> defined in a much more detailed way than html5, too
  497. # [10:45] <Hixie> html4 even
  498. # [10:48] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2006-01-01/#profile
  499. # [10:49] <Hixie> yup
  500. # [10:51] * tommorris_ is now known as tommorris
  501. # [10:55] <Philip`> Hixie: "doesn't work" is pretty vague - there are people who use the feature and it does what they want it to do and they are happy, so it does work for them
  502. # [10:56] <Hixie> it doesn't work for the reasons given in that e-mail -- namely that people don't use it
  503. # [10:58] <Lachy_> I wonder what Karl bases his claim on that "[profile] doesn't lead to any interoperability issues"? Would that be because user agents do absolutely nothing with it? Since, if they did something with it, it's more than likely they would have bugs.
  504. # [10:59] <jgraham__> It's pretty crazy that in 2008 I'm wasting my time reading email where people are trying to apply Latin grammar rules to English
  505. # [10:59] <Philip`> There's a non-zero amount of content that uses it, and a non-zero amount of tools that process it, and they interoperate when used together
  506. # [11:00] <Philip`> (I don't know if "non-zero" is larger than one, though)
  507. # [11:02] <Philip`> ...so (some) people do use it
  508. # [11:05] <Hixie> i don't believe anyone ever said it leads to interop issues
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  512. # [11:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://forums.whatwg.org/ gives 500
  513. # [11:24] <Hixie> really?
  514. # [11:24] <Hixie> the machine is basically idle
  515. # [11:24] <zcorpan> really
  516. # [11:27] <Hixie> configuration error
  517. # [11:27] <Hixie> ?
  518. # [11:28] <Hixie> cos seriously, the machine isn't doing anything right now
  519. # [11:28] <annevk> slightly offtopic but funny: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/05/07/when-the-fall-is-all-thats-left
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  524. # [11:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: well, i can't tell, i just know that i get a 500 :)
  525. # [11:33] <Hixie> odd
  526. # [11:34] <annevk> loads for me
  527. # [11:34] <Hixie> wfm
  528. # [11:34] <annevk> empty your cache?
  529. # [11:35] <annevk> Hixie, should "cache" in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions be unendorsed?
  530. # [11:36] <Hixie> uh yeah
  531. # [11:36] <Hixie> my bad
  532. # [11:40] <annevk> though i think other wiki pages uses rejected instead
  533. # [11:40] <annevk> oh well, fixed
  534. # [11:41] <zcorpan> ah, loads fine now
  535. # [11:41] <zcorpan> (though i got 500 in different browsers so i think it was unrelated to the cache)
  536. # [11:43] <annevk> proxy cache?
  537. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> watching Crockford present "Javascript: The Good Parts"
  538. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> "the DOM is one of the worst APIs ever invented... Javascript is unfairly blamed for the awfulness of the DOM"
  539. # [12:11] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@86.47.129.77) ("Ex-Chat")
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  541. # [12:13] <Hixie> well he's right about that
  542. # [12:13] <annevk> he says relying on semicolon insertion is bad :(
  543. # [12:13] <hsivonen> I use semicolon insertion all the time in JS
  544. # [12:14] * annevk too
  545. # [12:14] <Hixie> the comments on mark's msn music drm shutdown post are funny
  546. # [12:14] * annevk also uses the with operator for <canvas>
  547. # [12:14] <Hixie> "you say this now, but what if google ever shuts down a drm service! what would say then!"
  548. # [12:14] <Hixie> uh, hello, when we shut down google video's drm service we refunded everyone who'd ever bought anything. twice.
  549. # [12:15] <Hixie> let's see microsoft do that.
  550. # [12:15] <hsivonen> why not if (value) { ?
  551. # [12:18] <annevk> he also discourages blockless statements...
  552. # [12:18] <tomg> the YUI videos are an interesting mixture of very interesting and incredibly tedious
  553. # [12:18] <annevk> what happened with the lazy web?
  554. # [12:18] <hsivonen> he's right on that one
  555. # [12:21] <hsivonen> the V.nu tokenizer is intentionally full of fallthroughs
  556. # [12:21] <annevk> (for people reading the logs, some of the remarks here are only relevant if you attend the talk MikeSmith mentioned earlier)
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  558. # [12:44] <annevk> wow, he does overdramatize it quite a bit
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  561. # [13:00] <hsivonen> I hadn't noticed Mini 2 didn't have lists
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  571. # [14:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: it's unclear to me whether strokeText() actually strokes or not
  572. # [14:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: does it?
  573. # [14:19] <annevk> it does
  574. # [14:19] <annevk> it's defined in terms of strokeStyle
  575. # [14:19] <zcorpan> "The strokeStyle attribute represents the color or style to use for the lines around shapes"?
  576. # [14:20] <zcorpan> what if it's not possible to stroke for a particular font, as is the case apparently on mobiles?
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  580. # [14:57] <hsivonen> it's taking ages to upload my slides...
  581. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> crap network
  582. # [15:09] <hsivonen> it's no longer controversial to say that XSD 1.0 sucks
  583. # [15:10] <hsivonen> now the audience laughs
  584. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: which session?
  585. # [15:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Mike Kay on XSD 1.1
  586. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> ah
  587. # [15:18] <annevk> zcorpan, dunno, fix mobiles? allow some other behavior?
  588. # [15:22] <hsivonen> so far it seems to me that people who don't want the PSVI should use RNG and Schematron instead of XSD 1.1
  589. # [15:23] <hsivonen> now assertions are going to be a streamability problem for XSD too
  590. # [15:26] <hsivonen> give users the rope. let them hang themselves"
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  593. # [15:31] <Lachy> cool. I've just been asked to do an interview on HTML5 for a podcast on boagworld.com
  594. # [15:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: does Opera PR allow you to talk with journalists?
  595. # [15:33] <Lachy> I don't know
  596. # [15:33] <Lachy> I will have to check
  597. # [15:33] <Lachy> I haven't accepted yet
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  599. # [15:38] <hsivonen> quality of error messages will be a problem and a differentiating factor for impls
  600. # [15:39] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=285 - spam?
  601. # [15:40] <annevk> looks like it, yes
  602. # [15:40] <zcorpan> he's been online on the forum every time i've checked the past few days. interesting way to spam
  603. # [15:41] <annevk> that makes him one page away from the final link
  604. # [15:42] <annevk> maybe he just keeps a lot of tabs open
  605. # [15:42] <zcorpan> indeed, and harder to spot as being a spammer
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  607. # [15:44] * hsivonen wants electricity over IP for the laptop
  608. # [15:51] <hsivonen> David Orchard is talking about extension and versioning
  609. # [15:53] <annevk> Is he mentioning CSS and all too?
  610. # [15:53] * annevk is in the lobby working on his slides
  611. # [15:54] <hsivonen> annevk: not yet but he's talking about forward compat
  612. # [15:56] <hsivonen> well-defined processing model mentioned
  613. # [15:58] <annevk> (i think the solution to extensions is to have a well-defined processing model and the solution to versioning is to not have any)
  614. # [15:58] <hsivonen> HTML5 a great example of doing forward compat
  615. # [15:58] <hsivonen> counter example XML 1.0
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  617. # [16:01] <hsivonen> annevk: so far this is good stuff
  618. # [16:02] <annevk> apart from the XML Schema? :)
  619. # [16:02] <hsivonen> annevk: not talking about schema yet
  620. # [16:08] <hsivonen> it's interesting how Dave is formalizing what people on this channel take intuitively and tacitly into account when designing stuff
  621. # [16:09] <annevk> that's prolly good for when we're not around anymore :)
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  624. # [16:15] * markp_ is now known as markpilgrim
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  626. # [16:20] <hsivonen> now we got to XSD sucking totally on expressing this
  627. # [16:22] <hsivonen> "this is pretty gory"
  628. # [16:24] <markpilgrim> been off irc so long, somebody nicked my nick
  629. # [16:25] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-a0208eaa751a466f)
  630. # [16:26] <hsivonen> "we don't wanna hear about SOAP, because that's evil"
  631. # [16:27] <annevk> nice
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  634. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: this page from ralphm :
  635. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> http://ilabra.org/
  636. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> see the "Liliana, our new pottery artisan is originally from Argentina."
  637. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> running through html5lib results in unexpected DOM
  638. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> <a href="href="http://www.earthnskystudio.com/Pottery.html" &gt;Page Title ">
  639. # [16:38] <Philip`> http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3Ca+href%3D%22href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.earthnskystudio.com%2FPottery.html%22+%26gt%3BPage+Title+%22%3ELiliana%2C+our+new+pottery+artisan+is+originally+from+Argentina%3C%2Fa%3E
  640. # [16:38] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  641. # [16:38] <Philip`> Why is that unexpected?
  642. # [16:39] <Philip`> Seems to be pretty much the same as Firefox and Opera
  643. # [16:40] * markpilgrim wonders what hsivonen is watching/reading
  644. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> it shouldn't result in that mess :)
  645. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> it should do something nice
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  647. # [16:41] <Philip`> IE silently removes the entire link and link text from that page
  648. # [16:41] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Why shouldn't it?
  649. # [16:42] <Philip`> Garbage in plus processing model highly constrained by backward compatibility concerns results in garbage out :-p
  650. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> hmm, well, I guess doing something with it is rather better than removing it entirely
  651. # [16:43] <ralphm> I'd had expected to at least have some valid DOM. I mean, " is not really a valid attribute name, is it?
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  653. # [16:46] <zcorpan> ralphm: <foo "> is a parse error in both text/html and xml, and trying to create an attribute '"' with dom core apis will raise an exception, so yeah, it's probably not a valid attribute name
  654. # [16:47] <zcorpan> ralphm: (although it was a valid attribute name for <embed> in html5 a while ago)
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  656. # [16:51] <ralphm> zcorpan: well, not all DOM implementations actually check their input on object creation. So in my specific case, I happily got an invalid DOM and only discovered the issue when serializing it to XML and sending it over the wire using XMPP. One could claim that that is the DOM implementation's fault, but it would be nice if html5lib wouldn't feed it in the first place, no?
  657. # [16:51] <annevk> markpilgrim, XTech 2008, http://2008.xtech.org/public/schedule/detail/530
  658. # [16:51] * annevk is not there
  659. # [16:51] <Philip`> ralphm: By "valid DOM", do you mean one that can be serialised to well-formed XML?
  660. # [16:52] <ralphm> Philip`, yeah
  661. # [16:52] <ralphm> Is that a wrong assumption?
  662. # [16:52] <zcorpan> ralphm: the serializer needs to do checks
  663. # [16:52] <zcorpan> ralphm: the dom allows things that are not serializable as xml
  664. # [16:52] <zcorpan> ralphm: e.g. comment with --> in data
  665. # [16:53] <Philip`> <html><foo:bar/></html> too
  666. # [16:54] <ralphm> Right, so your view is that html5lib is not at fault, and I should file a bug against the DOM implementation(s)?
  667. # [16:55] <Philip`> The DOM implementation ought to be able to represent things that aren't XML-well-formed, because that's necessary for compatibility with HTML content
  668. # [16:55] <annevk> Well, basically you would need to file a bug against the software that serializes a DOM to well-formed XML
  669. # [16:55] <annevk> (but from your comments it doesn't seem you use such a serializer)
  670. # [16:55] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  671. # [16:55] * annevk isn't sure if there is one
  672. # [16:56] <Philip`> (and the DOM-to-XML serialiser should guarantee well-formedness for any arbitrary DOM)
  673. # [16:56] * zcorpan might write such a serializer in js just for fun
  674. # [16:56] <Philip`> function serialiseDOMToWellFormedXML(dom) { return '<x/>' }
  675. # [16:56] <annevk> (yeah, if it throws an exception it's not the software you want)
  676. # [16:57] <annevk> (if it does that it doesn't do what it claims to do...)
  677. # [16:57] <Philip`> Any such serialiser is going to have to be lossy for at least some inputs
  678. # [16:57] <Philip`> Is there a nice way to define what lossiness is acceptable?
  679. # [16:57] <zcorpan> dom to xml 1.0 4th ed
  680. # [16:58] <zcorpan> configurable whether it should halt or alter infoset
  681. # [16:59] <zcorpan> what does TagSoup do?
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  685. # [17:10] <gsnedders> annevk: http://w3.org/mid/E5851D3C-1B2C-49F0-9A23-61A56DD4A4FC@googlemail.com
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  697. # [17:48] <annevk> room for hsivonen's talk is near empty :(
  698. # [17:48] <annevk> it's pretty obvious people don't care about validation
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  702. # [17:51] <othermaciej> annevk: have you seen the File IO spec that chaals just posted?
  703. # [17:51] <annevk> yeah, I wasn't involved in it
  704. # [17:51] <virtuelv> othermaciej: I wrote most of it
  705. # [17:51] <othermaciej> virtuelv: it looks like a giant security hole
  706. # [17:51] <othermaciej> just replied to the list in more detail
  707. # [17:52] <virtuelv> othermaciej: how so?
  708. # [17:53] <othermaciej> virtuelv: see my email for some examples of security risks
  709. # [17:53] <annevk> one of the things that is unclear from chaals' message is that I believe this is not intended for Web applications but for widgets
  710. # [17:53] <annevk> so it's not entirely clear how it replaces "file upload"
  711. # [17:53] <othermaciej> if it is not meant for Web applications then I guess I am not as worried about security risks, but I also do not see how it is relevant to the group
  712. # [17:53] <virtuelv> othermaciej: in the context of web pages served over HTTP, I agree with you
  713. # [17:54] <virtuelv> for widgets/gadgets, not so much
  714. # [17:54] <othermaciej> virtuelv: ok, nothing in the spec makes clear that it is not meant to be exposed to web apps served over HTTP
  715. # [17:54] <othermaciej> "This document describes an interface for an abstract File I/O interface where web applications can interact with a file system, without any prior knowledge about the underlying filesystem."
  716. # [17:54] <virtuelv> othermaciej: that needs to be remedied, I agree
  717. # [17:55] <virtuelv> btw, all browseFor* methods have UI interaction restrictions in our implementation
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  722. # [17:58] <othermaciej> virtuelv: when I read the spec it almost gave me a heart attack
  723. # [17:58] <othermaciej> because I assumed Web application was meant to refer to Web apps on the Web
  724. # [17:58] <virtuelv> heh
  725. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen now doing validator.nu presentation at XTech
  726. # [18:01] <othermaciej> I'm not sure an API that is only for locally installed applications is in scope for Web API WG though
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  728. # [18:04] <virtuelv> othermaciej: it sort of is, given the merge between appformats and webapi
  729. # [18:06] <othermaciej> our charter says: "Although the primary focus will be handling of content deployed over the Web, the deliverables of the Web Applications Working Group should take into consideration uses of Web technologies for other purposes, such as the purpose of building user interfaces on devices; for example, user interfaces in multimedia devices such as digital cameras and in industrial information tools such RFID/barcode scanners and checko
  730. # [18:06] <othermaciej> (the new charter)
  731. # [18:06] <othermaciej> it also says: "Furthermore, the Web Applications Working Group deliverables must address issues of accessibility, internationalization, mobility, and security."
  732. # [18:07] <othermaciej> I guess it could be considered in scope, though I'm not very interested personally in APIs that aren't for the WEb
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  735. # [18:21] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I may be wrong, but I think there is no such thing as a split infinitive in German
  736. # [18:22] <gsnedders> (totally useless comment)
  737. # [18:23] <virtuelv> othermaciej: I take it "widgets != web" for you then?
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  739. # [18:24] <Philip`> German puts verbs in crazy places
  740. # [18:24] <Philip`> "Ich kann blah-blah-blah-blah verb" etc
  741. # [18:25] <Philip`> It's too easy to forget what you're talking about before the end of the sentence :-(
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  743. # [18:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: Better than Latin where the verb can be anywhere, though is typically at the end
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  746. # [18:32] <gsnedders> Philip`, jgraham__: Seeming jgraham__ wanted somewhere nearer the IoA how about outside the front of Selwyn?
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  749. # [18:33] * gsnedders can't get much closer without going away from where he knows
  750. # [18:33] * Philip` wonders where Selwyn is
  751. # [18:33] <gsnedders> Oh dear…
  752. # [18:34] * gsnedders really does like Philip`'s knowledge of Cambridge after he's been there for 3.5 years
  753. # [18:34] <Philip`> Oh, right, I walk past it twice every day
  754. # [18:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: Grange Road, between West Road and Sidwick Avenue
  755. # [18:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's what makes it even worse.
  756. # [18:35] <gsnedders> It's between Newham Croft and the faculty of Comp.Sci. :P
  757. # [18:35] * gsnedders may be in his late grandmother's flat before we meet up in which case he's more or less there
  758. # [18:36] <gsnedders> (the flat is in one of the blocks in the bit opposite Selwyn)
  759. # [18:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: You have any thought about time?
  760. # [18:37] <Philip`> Selwyn doesn't really seem any closer than King's
  761. # [18:37] <Philip`> (Maybe five minutes or so)
  762. # [18:37] <Philip`> (unless I'm just misreading the map badly)
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  764. # [18:37] <Philip`> but anyway, doesn't make much difference to me :-)
  765. # [18:38] <gsnedders> I guess from up there it makes little difference
  766. # [18:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: No
  767. # [18:39] * gsnedders has no idea how hard it'll be to get somewhere to eat on a Friday night at this time of year
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  769. # [18:40] * Philip` neither
  770. # [18:40] * gsnedders doesn't normally go down when it is his term time :P
  771. # [18:41] * Philip` normally just eats in college or at home, since those are easy and inexpensive :-)
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  773. # [18:41] <Philip`> s/normally/always/
  774. # [18:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: We can all come to your home if you want :P
  775. # [18:42] <Philip`> Probably a bad idea :-p
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  783. # [18:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: We can just meet by King's if that's easier :P
  784. # [18:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: More places to eat around there, too
  785. # [18:47] * Philip` shrugs
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  818. # [20:31] <gsnedders> GTA4 is far too short. Eight days and thirty-five hours for the first run through of the story-line.
  819. # [20:32] <Philip`> Eight days and thirty-five hours? Isn't that just nine days and eleven hours?
  820. # [20:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: I mean thirty-five hours of actually playing, over eight days.
  821. # [20:32] <Philip`> Ah
  822. # [20:33] <gsnedders> 4.375 hours per day, average (eek)
  823. # [20:33] <Philip`> That's not showing much dedication to the game
  824. # [20:34] * Philip` has got dragged back into Advance Wars again :-(
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  827. # [20:34] <Philip`> (I was looking at it yesterday and noticed most of the characters were only at level 2, so I had to get them a bit more experience...)
  828. # [20:34] <gsnedders> Oh dear…
  829. # [20:35] * gsnedders hopes he doesn't need to drag Philip` to supper :P
  830. # [20:36] <Philip`> (The problem is that I'm not very good at strategy, or at tactics, so I just throw units at the enemy for an hour until they either get worn down or defeat me)
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  843. # [21:30] <othermaciej> does anyone here know what virtualev's real life name is?
  844. # [21:35] <othermaciej> any Opera people around?
  845. # [21:35] <Philip`> othermaciej: http://virtuelvis.com/
  846. # [21:36] <othermaciej> Philip`: thanks!
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  858. # [22:07] <Hixie> yeah Philip` your comments seem fine
  859. # [22:07] <Hixie> though comments sent to the public-html list are more likely to fall through the cracks
  860. # [22:07] <Hixie> so if you want a guarenteed reply, you might want to use the whatwg list
  861. # [22:08] <Hixie> (the way to get a guarenteed reply with the htmlwg is to use the issues list)
  862. # [22:14] <Philip`> Hixie: If my comments get lost or ignored, I believe I'll notice that at some point in the future and can bring them up again; so in the meantime I'd prefer to attempt to contribute to the ratio of technical discussion on public-html, rather than giving up on it yet :-)
  863. # [22:19] <Dashiva> Hixie: Do you know anything of the process to return to invited expert status after being part of a Member
  864. # [22:19] <Dashiva> +?
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  867. # [22:21] <jgraham__> gsnedders: I think Kings is better. Selwyn is in the middle of nowhere
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  877. # [23:08] <Hixie> Dashiva: no idea
  878. # [23:08] <Hixie> Dashiva: ask mikesmith
  879. # [23:09] <Dashiva> Will do
  880. # [23:11] <hasather> Dashiva: Chaals fixed that for me
  881. # [23:13] <Dashiva> I figure there's little point in asking to join Google if I'm not going to be doing w3c work :)
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  885. # [23:15] <gsnedders> jgraham__: ping
  886. # [23:16] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Pong
  887. # [23:17] <gsnedders> jgraham__: See prior discussion. Short version: It's probably best to meet somewhere like King's.
  888. # [23:17] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Wait, that last thing was you.
  889. # [23:17] <gsnedders> I'm slow.
  890. # [23:17] * gsnedders is half asleep here
  891. # [23:18] <jgraham__> Yeah, I suggest Kings at 7, unless that's too late for you. Finding somewhere to eat will be trivial
  892. # [23:18] <gsnedders> The front of King's, I assume?
  893. # [23:19] <Philip`> Which part of the front?
  894. # [23:19] <gsnedders> 7 is fine by me.
  895. # [23:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: King's Parade?
  896. # [23:19] <jgraham__> By the postbox
  897. # [23:19] <gsnedders> There's a postbox there? I guess I'll have to see it when I get there.
  898. # [23:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's a whole street, which is pretty vague :-p
  899. # [23:20] <Philip`> It only took me six months to discover the postbox
  900. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: But that's the front! :P
  901. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, but your knowledge of Cambridge, well, leaves plenty to be desired :)
  902. # [23:20] <jgraham__> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrewdunn/490994558/
  903. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Right hand side, when facing it, then?
  904. # [23:21] <jgraham__> (it's quite a distinctive postbox :)
  905. # [23:21] <Philip`> Hint: It's tall and red
  906. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: OMFG.
  907. # [23:22] <jgraham__> If it helps, I will be the person who looks a bit like I do on the internet
  908. # [23:22] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Which is to say, what?
  909. # [23:23] <jgraham__> Mainly composed of ascii
  910. # [23:23] <gsnedders> http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2396366112/in/set-72157604424683450/
  911. # [23:23] <gsnedders> c'est moi.
  912. # [23:23] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-c2c472b3aec017f9) ("The computer fell asleep")
  913. # [23:23] <jgraham__> (seriously, if you search flickr you should see my photo without much trouble)
  914. # [23:24] * jgraham__ is now known as jgraham
  915. # [23:24] * gsnedders concludes looking through jgraham__'s photos for him isn't overly successful
  916. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Ah, OK. The guy who looks like a physicist who does a lot online.
  917. # [23:25] <jgraham> ?!
  918. # [23:25] <gsnedders> :P
  919. # [23:26] * jgraham wonders which photo /that/ came from
  920. # [23:27] <gsnedders> All of them in general
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  922. # [23:31] <jgraham> Fair enough
  923. # [23:32] <jgraham> (although I don't think I look like many actual physicists)
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  928. # [23:45] * gsnedders should be able to write more of HTTP5 on the train on Fri/Sun
  929. # [23:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.205)
  930. # [23:47] <gsnedders> markpilgrim: all the Atom autodiscovery tests on ragingplatypus.com are broken
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  935. # Session Close: Thu May 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)