/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <andersca> Hixie: so
  4. # [00:04] <andersca> Hixie: let's say I'm loading a.html which has a cache manifest
  5. # [00:04] <andersca> Hixie: a.html is very slow to load, so I cancel the load
  6. # [00:08] <Hixie> yes?
  7. # [00:09] <andersca> what happens
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  9. # [00:10] <andersca> a.html will of course not be in the cache as an implicit resource
  10. # [00:10] <andersca> should error be sent?
  11. # [00:10] <Hixie> the cache attempt fails
  12. # [00:16] <Hixie> actually that's related to an open issue
  13. # [00:16] <Hixie> i'll make sure it's clearer
  14. # [00:16] <Hixie> my intent was that it would cause the cache attempt or update attempt to fail
  15. # [00:19] <andersca> OK
  16. # [00:20] <andersca> Hixie: that makes sense
  17. # [00:22] <Hixie> glad you think so :-)
  18. # [00:23] <Hixie> that section needs an introductory section so bad
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  21. # [00:33] <andersca> Hixie: it makes sense because it's easy to implement ;)
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  23. # [00:39] <Hixie> Philip: please send feedback (to whatwg maybe...) pointing out that the spec should require something useful to be done with images with no alt in links
  24. # [00:39] <Hixie> or maybe with alt="" if that's the only contents
  25. # [00:39] <Hixie> or whatever the case was
  26. # [00:58] <Philip`> Hixie: That seems like just a user interface quality issue, with no effect on interoperability - why would the spec care about that?
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  28. # [01:00] <annevk> whether or not to expose and potentially ignore what the author said seems like interop
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  31. # [01:13] * Philip` hears a cat making really quite disturbing noises outside his window
  32. # [01:15] <Dashiva> This suggests your window is a blog
  33. # [01:16] <Philip`> It has enough security vulnerabilities to be a blog
  34. # [01:16] <Philip`> Someone ought to invent transparent bricks - those would be much better at keeping intruders out
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  42. # [01:59] <Hixie> Philip`: fair enough
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  53. # [02:39] <Hixie> wow, that thread was easy to deal with
  54. # [02:39] * Hixie switches to sentences around to fix 13 e-mails
  55. # [02:40] <Hixie> two
  56. # [02:40] <Hixie> Lachy: the attribute name was intentionally stupid so that people would suggest new names
  57. # [02:42] <Philip`> I think the attribute should be named "!"
  58. # [02:42] <Hixie> well that would be exciting
  59. # [02:42] <Philip`> so you can write <img! src=... alt=..> for an important image
  60. # [02:42] <Hixie> in SO many ways
  61. # [02:43] <Hixie> well you couldn't do _that_
  62. # [02:43] <Hixie> you'd be creating an <img!/> element
  63. # [02:43] <Philip`> Whoops
  64. # [02:44] <Hixie> but i do like the idea of <img ! src='photo' alt=>
  65. # [02:44] <Hixie> 'er
  66. # [02:44] <Philip`> That's spoilt my plan :-(
  67. # [02:44] <Hixie> but i do like the idea of <img ! src='photo' alt=Photo>
  68. # [02:45] <Hixie> the only things that end a tag name are >, /, whitespace, and EOF
  69. # [02:45] <Philip`> Hmm, it's even well-formed XML
  70. # [02:45] <Philip`> Oh
  71. # [02:45] <Philip`> No it's not
  72. # [02:45] <Philip`> I was accidentally testing it as text/html instead
  73. # [02:46] * Philip` thought that seemed a bit odd
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  81. # [03:07] <Philip`> annevk: I don't know if I've seen "interoperability" defined anywhere, so I'll make something up and say that interoperability is when authors can write pages that work in all UAs and developers can write UAs that work on all pages
  82. # [03:08] <Philip`> Then the linked-image case is interoperable regardless of how UAs handle <a><img alt=""></a>, because authors can write <a><img alt="Button label"></a> (which will work in all UAs) and developers can auto-generate some link text for <a><img alt=""></a> (which will work on all pages)
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  84. # [03:10] <Philip`> (Not all authors *will* do that, and not all UAs *will* do t'other, but that isn't a lack of interoperability and it won't have negative effects beyond that page or that UA)
  85. # [03:13] <Hixie> andersca: spec updated to handle all feedback so far, though not what we discused earlier
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  87. # [03:15] <andersca> Hixie: awesome - I'm fixing the case where you cancel the load of the implicit resource
  88. # [03:15] <Hixie> that's in the spec now
  89. # [03:16] <andersca> oh, cool
  90. # [03:16] * andersca reloads
  91. # [03:19] <andersca> Hixie: excellent
  92. # [03:19] <andersca> Hixie: what about step 2 of "If the resource being loaded was not loaded from an application cache, but it was loaded using HTTP GET or equivalent"
  93. # [03:20] <andersca> Hixie: if the implicit resource fails to load
  94. # [03:21] <Hixie> that's handled by step 21 of the application cache update process
  95. # [03:24] <andersca> Hixie: what if the cache manifest didn't change, then step 21 won't be reached
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  100. # [03:26] <Hixie> andersca: oh you mean if this is a new implicit entry but the cache is already there...
  101. # [03:26] <Hixie> andersca: hmm
  102. # [03:26] <andersca> yes
  103. # [03:26] <Hixie> andersca: sure, will fix that
  104. # [03:26] <andersca> Hixie: what should happen in that case?
  105. # [03:26] <Hixie> i guess it just doesn't get added
  106. # [03:26] <andersca> yeah
  107. # [03:27] <andersca> and there will be no error, since there's no update
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  111. # [03:31] <andersca> Hixie: maybe the document should no longer be associated with the cache in that case
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  115. # [03:44] <Hixie> andersca: fixed the infinite loop
  116. # [03:44] <andersca> Hixie: excellent
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  135. # [05:32] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dcp/ (as yet unannounced, i think, so don't vote on it yet) is going to be interesting. i wonder why that particular e-mail was chosen as a summary, for instance. and what weird effects there will be in casting the question in such a binary way.
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  137. # [05:44] <Hixie> Lachy, annevk, anyone: do you remember how to get cvs access to dev.w3.org?
  138. # [05:45] <heycam> Hixie, i think you need to mail an ssh public key of yours to a Team person
  139. # [05:45] <Hixie> oh they still don't have a form for this?
  140. # [05:45] <Hixie> ok
  141. # [05:46] <heycam> not afaik
  142. # [05:46] <Hixie> do you remember what kind of key they want?
  143. # [05:46] <Hixie> 1024 bit rsa?
  144. # [05:46] <heycam> don't know if they needed any specific key size / alg
  145. # [05:46] <Hixie> i seem to recall there was some problem with the first key i sent
  146. # [05:46] <Hixie> but this was years ago
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  150. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie, heycam : only criterion for the key is that it needs to be SSH2
  151. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> SSH protocol 2
  152. # [06:17] <Hixie> k thanks
  153. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> it can rsa or dsa of any length
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  182. # [08:19] <annevk> Philip`, you start getting content that relies on a particular UA behavior which is the problematic bit
  183. # [08:19] <annevk> Philip`, so it seems better to make it non-conforming
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  196. # [09:10] <annevk> hmm, all i tried to say was that HTML5 is not against "accessibility" and now i get ranted for that :(
  197. # [09:11] <annevk> seems like quite a hopeless case indeed
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  217. # [10:34] <jgraham_> hsivonen: Thank you for pointing out that accessibility is clearly not a "cornerstone of the web" for any reasonable use of the metaphor.
  218. # [10:35] <jgraham_> People really have to distinguish between what is actually true and what they would like to be true
  219. # [10:35] <hsivonen> indeed
  220. # [10:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-247-117.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  221. # [10:38] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  222. # [10:54] <Hixie> important="" isn't really the right name... we need something that means either:
  223. # [10:54] * Hixie ponders
  224. # [10:55] <Hixie> i don't even know really want we want to convey
  225. # [10:55] <Philip`> You want to convey that the alt text is a description rather than an alternative presentation of the image
  226. # [10:55] <Philip`> (I think)
  227. # [10:56] <Philip`> Uh
  228. # [10:56] <Philip`> s/presentation/representation/
  229. # [10:57] <Hixie> not even really a description
  230. # [10:57] <Philip`> Hmm, but it should also convey that the image is non-decorative and no textual representation can exist, since those are the only cases where it's allowed
  231. # [10:58] <Hixie> we want to convey that the alt is that the image is known to be not decorative, and that alt is giving the category of image in question, not a replacement representation
  232. # [10:58] <Hixie> a textual representation might be able to exist, we just don't know what it is
  233. # [10:58] <Philip`> (I mean a description of the image as an object (e.g. "Photo"), rather than a description of the content of the photo)
  234. # [10:58] <Hixie> e.g. in the case of a photo uploaded by a blind user or hsivonen's image tool
  235. # [11:00] <jgraham_> If the text was a description of the image it could go in title
  236. # [11:00] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  237. # [11:00] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  238. # [11:00] <jgraham_> Oh you made that distinction
  239. # [11:02] <Philip`> Does it have to be an attribute, rather than e.g. <img src=... alt="Important image: Photo">?
  240. # [11:02] <Philip`> (which would not be machine-extractable information, but I'm not sure if machines need to extract this information)
  241. # [11:03] <jgraham_> What's the rationale for having this attribute at all? How would UAs use it? What problems would it fix?
  242. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: doesn't the heading and preceding paragraph in the image report already make the point that the images are important for the function of the tool?
  243. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: if a user can't use it but ends up wading through the content, how does "Important image: Photo" a dozen times help?
  244. # [11:05] <jgraham_> In particular how would this attribute deal with the problem of authoring tools adding bogus content to pass validation?
  245. # [11:06] <Hixie> the idea is that the attribute would have one effect on UAs
  246. # [11:07] <Hixie> namely, when the <img> element is being rendered as text instead of as an image, the image would be rendered in a way that clearly indicates that there was an image there
  247. # [11:07] <Hixie> instead of just silently replacing the image with text
  248. # [11:07] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  249. # [11:07] <Hixie> so <p>Hello <img src=world.png alt="World"> how are <img important src=you.png alt="Word">?</p> would render as something like:
  250. # [11:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: The alternative (i.e. <img src=...>) means the UA will have to apply heuristics, so it might ignore all the images or read all their filenames, or might ignore all spacer.gifs since they look decorative, which seems like a worse user experience than just telling the user that there's an image (as would happen with alt="Image")
  251. # [11:08] <Hixie> Hello World how are [IMAGE: Word]?
  252. # [11:09] <Hixie> the idea being that you can still convey some sort of information, just not enough to act as a replacement
  253. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: are conceivable content-based heuristics worse?
  254. # [11:09] <Philip`> hsivonen: Users you can't see images would still find the image report tool useful to make sure they've added alt attributes to all their images (and if they've missed some then they could ask someone for suitable text)
  255. # [11:09] <Hixie> e.g. <img alt=Photo> is useless, but <img important alt=Photo> at least lets the user know there's an image there.
  256. # [11:09] <Philip`> s/you/who/
  257. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: are there notable UAs that read file name in the case of V.nu?
  258. # [11:09] <jgraham_> Hixie: So in fact this doesn't really help the AT case (since AFAIK they do that anyway), it just helps the text browser case
  259. # [11:10] <Hixie> jgraham_: I don't think current behaviour in ATs is really indicative of ideal behaviour in ATs, even in the face of existing legacy markup.
  260. # [11:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, but for that use case you only need to check if a particular heading appears in the report possible counting the rows in the table after it
  261. # [11:10] <Hixie> jgraham_: my limited experience suggests that ATs are horrificly bad at this point, and not in a manner gated by HTML's limitations.
  262. # [11:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: Lynx does
  263. # [11:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: e.g. http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk&showimagereport=yes says "[_44646536_34e73f52-7689-477a-86d7-7d309cf9a480.jpg] Carlos Tevez, Ryan Giggs and Cristiano Ronaldo celebrate Manchester United's Premier League title victory From line 2817, column 73; to line 2817, column 344"
  264. # [11:11] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  265. # [11:11] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  266. # [11:11] <jgraham_> Hixie: Sure. But nevertheless they tend to supply this information with or without an additional attribute
  267. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: eww. is that the default now?
  268. # [11:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: I don't think I've set any non-default options
  269. # [11:12] <Hixie> jgraham_: possible
  270. # [11:12] <Hixie> jgraham_: but they don't have to
  271. # [11:13] <Hixie> jgraham_: especially if we provide this
  272. # [11:13] <jgraham_> Hixie: I'm just not sure what having an additional attribute buys you here
  273. # [11:13] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  274. # [11:13] <Hixie> jgraham_: yeah well neither am i really
  275. # [11:13] <jgraham_> Is this substantially different from the @noalt case, but with a semanticised name?
  276. # [11:13] <Hixie> jgraham_: i'm just trying to find a technically good solution to the problem that is being posited to exist with the current text
  277. # [11:14] <Hixie> jgraham_: noalt was defined to have no behaviour at all, and was defined to only be valid if alt= was missing
  278. # [11:14] <Hixie> jgraham_: so yes
  279. # [11:14] <jgraham_> I thought noalt was supposed to indicate a "critical content" image for which no alt text was available?
  280. # [11:15] <Hixie> yes but it was not defined to allow alt="" to be specified with it
  281. # [11:15] <Philip`> hsivonen: Any half-decent content-based heuristics ought to ignore <img src=spacer.gif>, which is bad in this case since it unexpectedly hides some of the image report's images from the user (when they might often want to know about the image so they can copy-and-paste the URI or something) - as the content producer you know more about whether the image is ignorable than the UA can know, and you have to use the alt attribute to communicate that knowled
  282. # [11:15] <Hixie> you couldn't do <img alt=photo noalt>
  283. # [11:15] <Philip`> s/$/ge/
  284. # [11:16] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ade1025cbf101332)
  285. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: hmm. alt='image' would be truly ironic, but it would indeed make things better in Lynx
  286. # [11:17] <jgraham_> Hixie: So the @importantimage case would require alt and hence not address some of the cases where that is harmful e.g. a photo dragged into a WYSIWYG editor
  287. # [11:17] <hsivonen> but not in Safari+VO
  288. # [11:17] <Hixie> jgraham_: I don't know if it should require alt, necessarily
  289. # [11:18] <Hixie> jgraham_: but either alt, or important, or both, would need to be specified
  290. # [11:18] <Philip`> hsivonen: It would help in Opera+VO too, since that ignores images with no alt
  291. # [11:18] <zcorpan> Philip`: if the images in the image report were links, would UA still ignore spacer.gif?
  292. # [11:18] <Philip`> hsivonen: (at least while I'm believing that it's bad for the images to be ignored)
  293. # [11:18] <Hixie> jgraham_: though in the case of a wysiwyg editor, nothing that's been proposed so far would help, since you have no way to know if it's decorative or not
  294. # [11:18] <Hixie> jgraham_: and the spec currently doesn't allow you to not know that
  295. # [11:19] <zcorpan> Philip`: <a href=http://www.example.org/spacer.gif><img src=http://www.example.org/spacer.gif></a> is different from <img src=http://www.example.org/spacer.gif>
  296. # [11:19] <Hixie> fundamentally the problem with important="" boils down to the fact that you have to define the behaviour for when you have neither alt="" nor important=""
  297. # [11:19] <jgraham_> Hixie: The safe assumption is that it's not decorative
  298. # [11:19] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  299. # [11:20] <Hixie> jgraham_: not necessarily -- it would be annoying as all hell to have "image" read out a billion times
  300. # [11:20] <Philip`> zcorpan: The UA shouldn't ignore the whole link, but I don't see why it couldn't ignore the spacer.gif and treat that pattern the same as <a href></a> and convert it to text as "Empty link"
  301. # [11:20] <jgraham_> Hixie: It basically seems like missing alt would map to important
  302. # [11:20] <Hixie> ...and (continuing my earlier thought) you therefore end up making the default the same as including important="", and the attribute becomes mostly useless, unless we consider saying the kind of image to be a significant win
  303. # [11:21] <Hixie> right
  304. # [11:21] <jgraham_> s/missing alt/misgging alt and important/
  305. # [11:21] <jgraham_> s/gg/ss/
  306. # [11:21] <Philip`> s/ss/s/
  307. # [11:21] <zcorpan> Philip`: why would it be useful to do that?
  308. # [11:21] <jgraham_> Philip`: :-p
  309. # [11:22] <Philip`> zcorpan: Which "that"? The ignoring-the-image bit, or the rendering-empty-links-nonemptily bit?
  310. # [11:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: ignoring-the-image
  311. # [11:22] <jgraham_> Hixie: For the case where "image would be read out repeatedly, the user could just stop reading the page or engage some sort of skip images mode or something.
  312. # [11:22] <Philip`> zcorpan: <a href=...><img src=spacer.gif><img src=spacer.gif><img src=spacer.gif></a>
  313. # [11:23] <zcorpan> Philip`: i don't see your point
  314. # [11:23] <Philip`> zcorpan: You wouldn't really want to consider all the images to be significant - the only significant thing is that there's a link there
  315. # [11:23] <Hixie> jgraham_: at which point you've just assumed the images are decorative
  316. # [11:23] <zcorpan> Philip`: are there pages with 3 spacer.gifs in links?
  317. # [11:23] <Philip`> zcorpan: I don't know :-p
  318. # [11:23] <Hixie> zcorpan: almost certainly
  319. # [11:24] <jgraham_> Hixie: Only all remaining images. And it puts the user, rather than the author's editor, in control of their user experience
  320. # [11:24] <Hixie> jgraham_: you're assuming a competent user
  321. # [11:24] <Hixie> jgraham_: but sure
  322. # [11:24] <Hixie> jgraham_: i'm not sure that's the useful default, though
  323. # [11:25] <Hixie> jgraham_: depends which happens more often
  324. # [11:25] <Philip`> Users have a more direct incentive to act competently than authors do :-)
  325. # [11:25] <jgraham_> Basically I think that assuming images for which no information is available are decorative is worse information loss than assuming that they are important and risking the possibility that they are not
  326. # [11:25] <Hixie> jgraham_: you could also imagine a UA/AT saying "this page contains 45 unlabeled images." at the start of the read.
  327. # [11:25] <jgraham_> Hixie: Yeah
  328. # [11:25] <Hixie> jgraham_: (and then not saying where they are)
  329. # [11:27] <zcorpan> i think that noalt/importantimage/etc would be used incorrectly so much that the user experience will be the same or better if such attributes are ignored
  330. # [11:27] <zcorpan> frankly i think that alt is used incorrectly so much that UAs are better off doing image analysis to decide whether the image should be ignored or not
  331. # [11:28] <jgraham_> It would be good if tool authors could be convinced that accessibility is an important problem that needs to be solved by human-led analysis and so encouraged to provide tools for step-through analysis of the document's accessibility
  332. # [11:28] <Hixie> zcorpan: sure, sadly we're not there yet
  333. # [11:29] <jgraham_> If I were an accessibility expert I would spend my time doing that rather than trying to make one accessibility issue get proxied by a syntax requirement that can be caught by a validity check
  334. # [11:30] <jgraham_> (especially given how poor the proxy turns out to be)
  335. # [11:30] <Hixie> the accessibility people doing real work aren't visible in the standards process
  336. # [11:30] <Hixie> i know a lot of them at google
  337. # [11:31] <Hixie> you likely will only rarely hear of them
  338. # [11:32] <jgraham_> Hixie: That's a pity. I mean it's good that they're doing real work but bad that that takes up so much time they can't contribute some sanity to standards
  339. # [11:33] <Hixie> yeah well
  340. # [11:33] <Hixie> the same goes for most engineers, frankly
  341. # [11:34] <jgraham_> Yeah that's pretty noticable
  342. # [11:34] * jgraham_ should go
  343. # [11:34] <Hixie> later
  344. # [11:34] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM117-55-77-53.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  345. # [11:36] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-232.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  346. # [11:37] * Joins: mcarter (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-98.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  347. # [11:37] * Quits: roc (n=roc@38.99.84.33) (Remote closed the connection)
  348. # [11:41] * Philip` really doesn't like how his laptop's power cable has a loose connection
  349. # [11:41] * Joins: roc (n=roc@38.99.84.33)
  350. # [11:41] <Philip`> Every time I move it, I worry about whether that's the last time I'll be able to charge my battery
  351. # [11:42] <Hixie> my dell had that
  352. # [11:42] <Philip`> It'd be nicer if things either worked or didn't work, rather than dangling on the edge
  353. # [11:42] <Hixie> and then one day smoke came out of it
  354. # [11:42] <Philip`> Oh, lovely
  355. # [11:42] <Hixie> they fedexed me a new one overnight
  356. # [11:43] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  357. # [11:44] <Lachy> Hixie, re your question about ssh and dev.w3.org, didn't you already have access? How have you been uploading the spec without it?
  358. # [11:44] <Hixie> not for me
  359. # [11:44] <Lachy> oh
  360. # [11:44] <Hixie> i got my access years and years ago
  361. # [11:45] <Hixie> hehay, i didn't know about rfc 4735
  362. # [11:45] <Hixie> example/* and */example media types
  363. # [11:47] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM117-55-77-53.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  364. # [11:51] <hsivonen> I wonder where the 'acrimonious tone' came from...
  365. # [11:55] <Philip`> (£30 for a new AC adapter? It's just a dumb lump of plastic and metal :-( )
  366. # [12:02] <Lachy> my understanding of important="" was that it would indicate that the image is important content and that the user should attempt to find out more about it through additional heuristics or image analysis, if the alt wasn't sufficient. But then I'm not sure how it's any different from <figure><img src="..."><legend>...</legend></figure>
  367. # [12:05] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@203.96.70.2)
  368. # [12:08] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  369. # [12:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  370. # [12:11] <hsivonen> looks like the meaning of "bolted on" is not agreed upon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008May/0099.html
  371. # [12:13] <hsivonen> I expect there's a Latin term for argument by shame
  372. # [12:13] <Lachy> I don't understand how it could be interpreted differently from being a feature that is not part of the actual content, but rather included along side it to address some issue
  373. # [12:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: if you twist your point of view far enough, an <img> element is just text with an image alternative
  374. # [12:14] <Hixie> uh
  375. # [12:14] <Hixie> wow
  376. # [12:15] <Hixie> that's quite the e-mail
  377. # [12:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: no offense to you intended, but what the spec used to say wasn't really how authors use <img>
  378. # [12:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: indeed
  379. # [12:15] <Hixie> that's why it changed :-)
  380. # [12:16] <Hixie> that e-mail reminds me of religous zealot e-mail
  381. # [12:16] <Philip`> hsivonen: What the spec says about almost all of HTML isn't how authors really use it
  382. # [12:16] <Hixie> "'god does not exist.' you are going to hell! the world is not perfect, but it definitely has a god!"
  383. # [12:17] * Philip` sees that HTML 1.0 allowed but did not require ALT
  384. # [12:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think the syntax definition needs some more authoring practice alignment with border=0, etc.
  385. # [12:17] <Philip`> (at least judging by its '< A HREF="Go">< IMG SRC ="Button"> Press to start</A>' example)
  386. # [12:18] <Philip`> ...although actually I'm just looking at an old draft
  387. # [12:18] <Hixie> Philip`: html1?
  388. # [12:18] <Hixie> Philip`: i thought "proposal" (the first version of html) didn't have <img> at all
  389. # [12:18] <Hixie> Philip`: and that mark anderseen invented it for mosaic
  390. # [12:18] <Hixie> is that wrong?
  391. # [12:18] <Hixie> or do you mean html+
  392. # [12:18] * hsivonen defers replying, tries to get out of the alt tarpit by working on MathML parsing
  393. # [12:20] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt
  394. # [12:20] <Philip`> Google says that's "html 1.0", so who am I to disagree?
  395. # [12:20] <hsivonen> aside: I find that most of my work-related unhappiness comes from dealing with accessibility-related issues. And I think accessibility is a good thing.
  396. # [12:21] <hsivonen> I mean the alt thread and the aria-foo vs. aria:foo thing
  397. # [12:21] <Philip`> (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1866.txt seems to have optional ALT too)
  398. # [12:22] <Lachy> alt wasn't required until HTML 3.2, I think
  399. # [12:22] <Lachy> or maybe it was 4.0
  400. # [12:22] <hsivonen> I'd *so* walk away from the alt stuff if it wasn't about what people want my product to do
  401. # [12:22] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@203.96.70.2)
  402. # [12:22] * Philip` is quite happy working on canvas stuff since it's so clearly inaccessible that nobody even cares any more
  403. # [12:24] <Hixie> wow, i've never seen this draft
  404. # [12:24] <Hixie> this adds a whole version of html to my previously assumed versions
  405. # [12:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you mean the IIIR draft? it has been cited on the WHATWG list.
  406. # [12:27] <Hixie> interesting
  407. # [12:27] <Hixie> must've not yet gotten to that e-mail, or assumed that e-mail to be referring to something else
  408. # [12:27] <Hixie> rel=interested is a hilarious (unscalable) idea
  409. # [12:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think I cited it in an <i> vs. <em> email
  410. # [12:28] <Lachy> what is rel=interested supposed to mean?
  411. # [12:28] <Hixie> oh i probably assumed it was just a copy of proposal, then
  412. # [12:28] <Hixie> Lachy: see near the end of that draft
  413. # [12:30] <Lachy> I don't see how that's not scalable. How hard can it be to notify any website that links to mine with rel=interested, when my page is updated? ;-)
  414. # [12:30] <Lachy> I suppose it's a like a poorly designed version of pingback
  415. # [12:31] <Hixie> wow, alt=" really is optional in that draft
  416. # [12:31] <Hixie> so optional that the draft doesn't even count it!
  417. # [12:31] <Hixie> "[IMG] has two attributes: SRC [...] ALIGN [...] ALT [...]"
  418. # [12:32] <zcorpan> obviously image alignment is more important than text alternative
  419. # [12:33] <Lachy> yeah, alt wasn't added later in RFC 1866, but still optinal until HTML 4.0. I guess that proves alt really is bolted on.
  420. # [12:33] <Hixie> man this spec is so vague it's ridiculous
  421. # [12:33] <Hixie> anyway
  422. # [12:33] <Hixie> back to making hml5
  423. # [12:33] <Hixie> html5
  424. # [12:35] * zcorpan looks up expansions for hml
  425. # [12:35] <zcorpan> Human-Machine Language 5?
  426. # [12:35] <zcorpan> Hellfire Missile Launcher?
  427. # [12:36] <zcorpan> or Help Me Lord
  428. # [12:44] <virtuelv> Hixie: you were looking for a security model for File I/O?
  429. # [12:45] * Philip` wonders why it's bad to use <progress> for a static gauge
  430. # [12:46] * Quits: roc (n=roc@38.99.84.33) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  431. # [12:47] <Lachy> Philip`, because using progress sugests that the value will change in the future, and because common progress widgets UI looks different from a gauge
  432. # [12:48] <Hixie> virtuelv: ?
  433. # [12:48] <virtuelv> Lachy: yes, but if I say have a project tracker, and it says that some task is 80% complete
  434. # [12:48] <Hixie> virtuelv: in what context?
  435. # [12:48] <virtuelv> Hixie: the proposal sent to the web api mailing list?
  436. # [12:48] <Hixie> virtuelv: ah, yes, what about it?
  437. # [12:49] <virtuelv> I have a workable idea for it, I think
  438. # [12:49] <Lachy> virtuelv, then it's not really static. It may just take a while before it progresses beyond 80%
  439. # [12:49] <Hixie> let the wg know :-)
  440. # [12:49] <virtuelv> Lachy: the point is that it's not going to progress during the lifetime of the page
  441. # [12:50] <Hixie> Lachy: a progress bar might make sense for something that is a task competion amount (maybe.) but it's not appropriate for a disk space utilisation meter, e.g.
  442. # [12:50] <Lachy> Hixie, yeah, I know
  443. # [12:50] <Hixie> er, that was meant for Philip`
  444. # [12:51] <Lachy> virtuelv, that doesn't really matter. It's still a progress indicator
  445. # [12:51] <hsivonen> as a practical matter, it matters that progress bar is animated to look busy on OS X and Ubuntu
  446. # [12:51] <virtuelv> Lachy: agreed, but it was somewhat unclear from Philip`s question
  447. # [12:52] <hsivonen> so if the project isn't completing while the users is waiting, you may want a gauge anyway
  448. # [12:54] <Lachy> are there non-animated progress indicators available in OSX or Ubuntu?
  449. # [12:54] <hsivonen> I don't know
  450. # [12:58] <Lachy> maybe we should have some way to indicate whether the progress bar is relatively static or dynamic, where a dynamic one is expected to update relatively quickly, and a static may stay the same for a while.
  451. # [12:59] <Lachy> and if there are non-animated progress bars available, they would be used for the static progress bars.
  452. # [13:01] <hsivonen> isn't a non-dynamic progress bar close enough to gauge for all practical purposes?
  453. # [13:01] <Lachy> I don't know. Maybe.
  454. # [13:04] <Lachy> Apple's HIG shows both active and inactive fill progress bars http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_19_section_5.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000359-TPXREF208
  455. # [13:05] <Lachy> but it doesn't explain when each one should be used.
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  457. # [13:06] <Hixie> inactive = the window isn't focused
  458. # [13:06] <Lachy> oh, ok
  459. # [13:07] <Hixie> <meter> = capacity indicator on that page
  460. # [13:07] * Philip` doesn't like forms that try to automatically capitalise addresses and result in "King'S College"
  461. # [13:08] <Lachy> so I guess my static/dynamic idea is no good. Ignore it.
  462. # [13:08] <Hixie> (we don't have relevance indicators or rating indicators or discrete capacity indicators or asynchronous progress indicators, as defined by that page)
  463. # [13:08] <Hixie> (though maybe we should)
  464. # [13:09] <hsivonen> I thought <meter> was meant to be a relevance indicator, too
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  466. # [13:12] <Lachy> for the rating indicator in that HIG page, would that be best done <input type=range>, and somehow styled with XBL?
  467. # [13:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, in html5 <meter> acts as both
  468. # [13:12] <Hixie> Lachy: no idea
  469. # [13:12] <Hixie> 4am. bed time.
  470. # [13:19] <Hixie> before i go to bed
  471. # [13:19] <Hixie> does anyone want to give a talk on html5 at @media 2008 in london at the end of may?
  472. # [13:19] <Hixie> Philip`? jgraham_?
  473. # [13:23] <Hixie> don't all reply at once :-)
  474. # [13:24] * Hixie goes to bed
  475. # [13:34] <BenMillard> if JGraham goes and my travel is paid, we could show how HTML5 table accessibility has improved through research, prototypes and analysis
  476. # [13:34] <Lachy> hmm. Only 16 days to go till @media. I don't think I could put together a presentation and get approval and funding to go in that short time.
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  489. # [14:41] <hsivonen> any suggestions on how to best handle *not* acknowledging the self-closing flag?
  490. # [14:42] <hsivonen> hmm. perhaps I should use break instead of early return and fall to a late return that inspects whether the flag has been cleared
  491. # [14:43] <hsivonen> yay for goto programming
  492. # [14:47] <zcorpan> goto is the shit. opera supports it in javascript too
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  494. # [14:54] <hsivonen> if I reset the insertion mode in MathML, what do I set the secondary mode to?
  495. # [14:56] * takkaria adds to the spam of public-html
  496. # [14:58] <hsivonen> takkaria: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008May/0098.html
  497. # [15:00] <Lachy> takkaria, this is what at least one blind photographer does http://my.opera.com/oedipus/albums/
  498. # [15:01] <Lachy> although, the alt attributes used repeat the tags, that's a problem with my.opera, which is out of his control
  499. # [15:13] <takkaria> hsivonen: that goes part of the way but doesn't quite address it
  500. # [15:16] <hsivonen> takkaria: it seems, though, that the WCAG 2.0 framers have come to the conclusion that there are use cases that should be allowed to exist even if they aren't fully accessible
  501. # [15:20] <takkaria> mm
  502. # [15:25] <Philip`> Hixie: @media seems too trendy for me :-p
  503. # [15:25] <Philip`> and I don't think I'd be any good at that kind of thing
  504. # [15:25] <hsivonen> Lachy: switching services is not out of the users control and advocates seem to be suggesting getting rid of bad tools, i.e. switching tools
  505. # [15:26] <takkaria> good lord, misunderstandings are easy to come by these days
  506. # [15:26] <Philip`> You could ask the toolmaker to improve the tools - switching away is not the only possible form of feedback
  507. # [15:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: sure. my point is that it comes down to choosing what you value more if the tool maker doesn't fix
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  511. # [16:07] <Lachy> wow, Rob seemed to completely sidestep the issue instead of answering the question http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0263.html
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  519. # [16:25] <takkaria> there has to be some middle ground here somewhere such that the a11y people and the critical-content-altless people can stop talking past each other
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  521. # [16:27] <Philip`> Perhaps all the middle ground has been turned into no man's land
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  524. # [16:32] <hsivonen> the middle ground seems to be giving up on the distinction between alt not known and purely decorative and using alt='' for both cases
  525. # [16:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think that could be reasonable, given that there is a non-trivial amount of content images on the web that have alt='', and so users would miss out if UA ignored them
  526. # [16:35] <zcorpan> (i don't have data but i've seen content images with alt='' more than content images with good alt, i think)
  527. # [16:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: of course, the next question is: if no alt and alt='' mean the same thing, why bother with alt='' except for backwards compat and in order to have more error cases
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  529. # [16:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: indeed, i'd be fine with making no alt and alt='' equivalent and have alt optional :)
  530. # [16:38] * Philip` thinks data would help, to determine roughly what "non-trivial amount" and "more" mean
  531. # [16:38] <zcorpan> Philip`: indeed
  532. # [16:39] <zcorpan> i might be completely off and hence my conclusions wrong
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  535. # [16:46] <takkaria> hmm, webcams that take a snapshot every x minutes and upload it to the web are like blind photographers but remove humans from the equation entirely
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  537. # [16:46] <takkaria> I think that might turn into my new example of choice
  538. # [16:47] <hsivonen> takkaria: whoever sets up the Webcam knows what general direction it is pointed at
  539. # [16:47] <Philip`> What if the webcam is mounted on a robot that is controlled remotely by visitors to the web site?
  540. # [16:48] <takkaria> hsivonen: not on a laptop
  541. # [16:49] <takkaria> I should start collecting these cases somewhere
  542. # [16:50] <hsivonen> the MathML stuff has an admirably small impact on tree construction code
  543. # [16:50] <hsivonen> most of the changes were related to adding a namespace parameter all over
  544. # [16:50] <hsivonen> which thankfully is the kind of stuff Eclipse is really good at
  545. # [16:53] <mpt> takkaria, http://www.geonet.org.nz/volcano/volcams/whiteisland/whiteisland-recent.html
  546. # [16:53] <Lachy> what we really need for the alt discussion to get somewhere is a study that looks at the reasons why people use alt="" or alt="bogus, validator friendly content" or whatever. The difficulty is in figuring out how to perform such a study
  547. # [16:54] <Lachy> maybe a carefully crafted survey, asking web developers a bunch of questions about the issue would work
  548. # [16:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: no, this is the kind of stuff where you have go look for revealed preferences from actual actions, because if you ask, people lie
  549. # [16:55] <takkaria> mpt: thanks
  550. # [16:55] <Lachy> yeah, but the problem is, how do you unambiguosly determine someone's reasons from simply looking at their output?
  551. # [16:56] <Philip`> Lachy: You can't, but you can't determine that by any other mechanism either
  552. # [16:56] <mpt> interview them afterwards
  553. # [16:56] <mpt> Welcome to sociology!
  554. # [16:57] * takkaria attempts to pin down some concrete proposals rather than wordy long-paragaph replies
  555. # [16:57] <Philip`> Also, your assumption that people have reasons is not clearly valid
  556. # [17:00] <Lachy> Philip`, people always have reasons for doing something, even if that reason is that they didn't care and just picked one alternative randomly
  557. # [17:06] <Lachy> if I were to do a presentation on HTML5 at @media, which topics do you think people would like to hear about?
  558. # [17:06] <Lachy> it looks like the presentations are an hour long, so I could fit a lot in
  559. # [17:10] <takkaria> heh, moving the goalposts is popular sport on public-html
  560. # [17:11] * hsivonen expects the famous 'axiomatic proof' to show up
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  563. # [17:14] <takkaria> I wish I had the time to write a proper reply to Rob today, but it'l have to wait til tomorrow
  564. # [17:14] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1041735552&count=1 ?
  565. # [17:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah
  566. # [17:16] <Lachy> fortunately, Shelbey hasn't joined the group yet. But who knows, she might.
  567. # [17:17] <virtuelv> hm, interesting image chosen for Hixie's last log entry
  568. # [17:19] <Lachy> virtuelv, the image is somewhat random (though it doesn't update too frequently).
  569. # [17:23] <hsivonen> can foreign elements ever participate in foster-parenting?
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  571. # [17:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you mean in e.g. <table><math> ?
  572. # [17:38] <zcorpan> "you're not reading my questions." "you're not reading my answers."
  573. # [17:38] * zcorpan wonders why he's still reading
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  576. # [17:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes
  577. # [17:41] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
  578. # [17:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: umm no
  579. # [17:42] <hsivonen> I mean stuff that occurs 'in foreign content'
  580. # [17:42] <zcorpan> ah
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  582. # [17:48] <virtuelv> hsivonen: are your XTech slides anywhere online?
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  586. # [17:50] <hsivonen> virtuelv: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xtech2008/ but the server is not responding right now
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  588. # [17:50] <hsivonen> actually it is responding but very slowly
  589. # [17:51] <virtuelv> hsivonen: that's ok, I just need something to paste into my trip report
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  596. # [17:57] * aroben wonders why it's <dialog> instead of <dialogue>
  597. # [18:00] <hsivonen> yay. pointing out a use case is undermining the work of the WG
  598. # [18:01] <gavin> wow
  599. # [18:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm now even more convinced that 'in foreign content' should be a flag and not an item in the mode enumeration
  600. # [18:02] <hsivonen> for efficient impl
  601. # [18:03] <hsivonen> do we want to have the self-closing flag on end tags for the purpose of tokenizer tests?
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  613. # [18:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: it isn't just atom:content that allows it. It's that, and Atom XHTML Text Constructs.
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  615. # [18:32] <hober> i.e. atom:title, atom:summary, atom:content, atom;rights
  616. # [18:32] * gsnedders was being lazy and not looking
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  618. # [18:32] <gsnedders> But it's probably better to generically define it
  619. # [18:33] <gsnedders> atom:subtitle too
  620. # [18:33] <hober> right, by referencing the text construct dfn
  621. # [18:33] <virtuelv> hsivonen: you did a lightning talk too?
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  623. # [18:34] <hsivonen> virtuelv: yeah
  624. # [18:35] <virtuelv> url?
  625. # [18:35] <hsivonen> virtuelv: the same directory
  626. # [18:36] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xtech2008/html5-parsing-lightning.pdf
  627. # [18:36] <virtuelv> ty
  628. # [18:36] <virtuelv> I never looked at the directory, since I assumed it was a direct link
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  663. # [20:26] <othermaciej> ok the accessibility crowd needs to get their story straight
  664. # [20:27] <othermaciej> how can they cite each other's emails as supporting evidence when they are saying directly contradictory things?
  665. # [20:27] <othermaciej> am I losing my mind?
  666. # [20:32] <Lachy> othermaciej, which mails are you referring to?
  667. # [20:32] * Joins: aruner (n=chatzill@adsl-75-36-185-153.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  668. # [20:33] <othermaciej> Lachy: Robert Burns saying that alt is not supposed to be used for photos, and others citing his arguments
  669. # [20:33] <othermaciej> am I totally lacking in reading comprehension skills because that seems like the opposite of what AI54 says
  670. # [20:34] <rammic> Can anyone answer a stupid spec question for me? (4.7.5.1. Changes to the networking model) would seem to imply that if a cached application cannot be reached due to network error (downtime?), then the browser should load the cache version- right?
  671. # [20:36] <Lachy> yeah, I thought Rob's argument was a bit strange
  672. # [20:37] <Lachy> rammic, I'll check the spec and see how I interpret it.
  673. # [20:37] * Joins: roc (n=roc@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  674. # [20:37] <rammic> Thanks.
  675. # [20:38] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@203.96.70.2)
  676. # [20:39] <andersca> Hixie?
  677. # [20:40] * Joins: mcarter_ (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-4.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  678. # [20:40] <Lachy> rammic, I believe you're right. Though, I could be wrong, since I'm not very familar with that section of the spec.
  679. # [20:41] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-98.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  680. # [20:42] <rammic> Okay. I'm playing around with the Firefox implementation and found it wasn't working as expected... I hope failback is intended (otherwise kills several use cases).
  681. # [20:45] * Philip` loves C, particularly when his program crashes with a non-existent backtrace because a function is somehow making %esp offset by 4 when it's called
  682. # [20:49] <othermaciej> ok it is starting to bug me a little that Steven Faulkner doesn't seem to even be trying to spell my name correctly
  683. # [20:50] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@203.96.70.2)
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  686. # [20:53] <Lachy> najiec, I think it is you who is misspelling your name :-)
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  691. # [21:07] <Philip`> (Yay for undeclared functions, and C guessing that it probably just takes int arguments and returns an int or something and who cares if that's going to crash your program)
  692. # [21:13] <othermaciej> -Werror
  693. # [21:13] <Philip`> Legacy codebase with hundreds of existing warnings :-p
  694. # [21:15] <Philip`> and I want my fork to differ as little as possible from the original version, to avoid future pain when merging changes, so I don't want to fix all the warnings in my copy
  695. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: I ended up trying that once. I rewrote all but one method in the end. :P
  696. # [21:19] * Quits: rammic (n=rammic@c-71-204-238-44.hsd1.sc.comcast.net)
  697. # [21:27] <annevk> it's amusing that when html4all people are confused with HTML5, HTML5 is blamed
  698. # [21:27] <annevk> but when their propposal is confusing, the reviewer is blamed
  699. # [21:29] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
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  706. # [22:25] <hsivonen> argh. now armchair lawyering about copyright metadata is brought in
  707. # [22:29] <Lachy> I think alt text used in these Examples that Gez linked to would be better marked up as captions. http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/raman/
  708. # [22:30] <Lachy> although, I guess they are links, so maybe not
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  715. # [23:20] <Hixie> andersca: here now
  716. # [23:20] <Hixie> andersca: note btw there were some changes made yesterday that you will want to see
  717. # [23:21] <andersca> Hixie: oh?
  718. # [23:21] <jgraham_> othermaciej_: Steve consistently calls me "Graham" for some reason I don't quite understand
  719. # [23:21] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  720. # [23:22] <Hixie> andersca: yeah, look at the html5 tracker and at the recent checks with the webkit icon
  721. # [23:22] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  722. # [23:22] <andersca> Hixie: ice!
  723. # [23:22] <andersca> nice even
  724. # [23:23] <Hixie> andersca: as far as i know that resolves all the outstanding issues with that part of the spec
  725. # [23:27] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Would you rather myself and Philip` look at you at once?
  726. # [23:28] <jgraham_> gsnedders: That's unnerving. This is just faintly insulting (which is a pity because I think Steve is actually a nice guy)
  727. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Lachy: re your tweet: the solution to issue 42. :P (or, seriously, why defining error handling actually helps anyone when all the browsers are close enough anyway)
  728. # [23:36] <Lachy> awsome! Someone actually reads my twitter feed :-)
  729. # [23:37] * Joins: aruner (n=chatzill@adsl-75-36-185-153.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  730. # [23:37] <gsnedders> Lachy: Feel honoured. I follow very few :)
  731. # [23:44] * Philip` wonders how much of http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/moving-to-unicode-51.html is the effect of Google's indexing system becoming less US-centric over time
  732. # [23:44] <Hixie> MikeSmith: help me out here. what would i need to do to get http://www.w3.org/2000/11/DOM-Level-2-errata updated?
  733. # [23:53] <soypunk> blah, I wish http://twitter.com/replies were visible for other users so that besides seeing my own I could also do http://twitter.com/lachy/replies
  734. # [23:53] <soypunk> i guess this is as good as it gets: http://quotably.com/Lachy/statuses/810546483
  735. # [23:58] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=jgraham@81-86-212-222.dsl.pipex.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  736. # [23:58] * mcarter_ is now known as mcarter
  737. # [23:59] <mcarter> in my pursuit of implementing cross-sub-domain SSE and TCPConnection for IE, I've noticed that sometimes switching document.domain causes some weird illegal access errors, but then calling CollectGarbage(); right after switching the domain sometimes fixes those errors. I don't suppose anyone might possibly know why that is?
  738. # Session Close: Wed May 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)