/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-20 / end

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  39. # May 20 02:27:28 <MikeSmith> Hixie: editorial -
  40. # May 20 02:27:32 <MikeSmith> "The reversed attribute is a boolean attribute. If present, it indicates that the list is an ascending list. If the attribute is present, the list is a descending list."
  41. # May 20 02:28:27 <MikeSmith> 2nd sentence should start "If absent,"
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  46. # May 20 03:00:27 <MikeSmith> hmm, the algorithm for determining what an object element represents has a requirement to check the value of a "classid" attribute
  47. # May 20 03:00:53 <MikeSmith> but nowhere is such an attribute defined
  48. # May 20 03:01:24 <MikeSmith> I guess it's meant to be a content attribute
  49. # May 20 03:01:40 <MikeSmith> but it's not in the content model for the object element
  50. # May 20 03:02:23 <Philip`> The content model only lists conforming attributes, and classid is non-conforming
  51. # May 20 03:02:28 <MikeSmith> ah
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  53. # May 20 03:03:04 <MikeSmith> Philip`: this is some MS proprietary attribute?
  54. # May 20 03:03:04 <Philip`> so it's the same as how e.g. <isindex> is used in the parsing algorithm, but is not defined anywhere
  55. # May 20 03:03:10 <MikeSmith> OK
  56. # May 20 03:03:58 <Dashiva> Oh boy, more alt fun
  57. # May 20 03:05:07 <Dashiva> If the designers of these tools cannot at this time
  58. # May 20 03:05:07 <Dashiva> make their tools ATAG-compliant
  59. # May 20 03:05:09 <MikeSmith> seems like for those kinds of cases, to avoid confusion (mine), the spec should explicitly mention that those are things that are not conformant for authoring purposes and so not documented in the spec
  60. # May 20 03:05:25 <Dashiva> That line is such a wonderful thing
  61. # May 20 03:05:35 <Philip`> MikeSmith: I think it's mostly used for ActiveX GUIDs, but I can see some people suggesting things like classid="java:Example.class" too but I don't know if that's implemented anywhere
  62. # May 20 03:06:09 <Philip`> MikeSmith: How you can document something to say that it's not documented in the spec? :-p
  63. # May 20 03:06:21 <MikeSmith> heh, true I suppose
  64. # May 20 03:07:17 <hsivonen> I misread the commit log and thought Hixie made classid conforming :-(
  65. # May 20 03:07:22 <MikeSmith> I think it would be appropriate for all instances of those kinds of things to be enclosed in <blink> tags
  66. # May 20 03:07:54 <hsivonen> I think making classid non-conforming at this time does not make sense, even though it is product-specific
  67. # May 20 03:08:01 <Philip`> MikeSmith: I agree it'd be nice to be explicit when things mentioned in the spec are non-conforming, because otherwise it's not at all clear that the spec author didn't just forget to add that attribute to the list
  68. # May 20 03:08:12 <MikeSmith> Philip`: exactly
  69. # May 20 03:09:07 <hsivonen> also, to me it would make sense for non-IE browsers to map the Flash classid to an NPAPI Flash plug-in, etc.
  70. # May 20 03:12:11 <csarven> re: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-global.html#embedding "So here we're saying that microformats shouldn't use this... is that what we want?" -- I suppose, but, I don't believe microformats is particularly interested in "Embedding custom non-visible data". One of its main goals is to mark "visible" data.
  71. # May 20 03:12:47 <csarven> I don't know who wrote that or if there is a backlog for it
  72. # May 20 03:13:52 <Philip`> csarven: Hixie wrote it
  73. # May 20 03:14:45 --- [csarven] (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) : nevrasc
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  79. # May 20 03:22:12 <csarven> microformats is still open to finding a better way to do datatime-design-pattern. For a second there I thought data-* could assist that but realised it is probably not the right fit.
  80. # May 20 03:22:53 <csarven> "User agents must not derive any implementation behavior from these attributes or values. Specifications intended for user agents must not define these attributes to have any meaningful values." -- I suppose this is to prevent authors from creating custom markup and relying on some UA behaviour.
  81. # May 20 03:24:10 <takkaria> csarven: datetime-design-pattern is solved with <time>, no?
  82. # May 20 03:24:34 <csarven> I don't know. Can you give me an example using <time>?
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  85. # May 20 03:26:25 <csarven> takkaria I see.
  86. # May 20 03:26:38 <takkaria> csarven: <time datetime="2007-08-20T23:30Z">20 Aug</time>
  87. # May 20 03:27:53 <csarven> Certainly.
  88. # May 20 03:28:23 <csarven> As far as I can tell. The existing <abbr> approach would probably need to me replaced with <time>
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  90. # May 20 03:28:49 <takkaria> I believe that was one of the reasons <time> was invented
  91. # May 20 03:30:36 <Philip`> As far as I'm aware, that was the only reason <time> exists
  92. # May 20 03:31:11 <csarven> Then I'm not sure if data-* would at all be a use to microformats.
  93. # May 20 03:32:33 <Philip`> If there was something equivalent to data-* but without the 'implementations must ignore these attributes' requirement, would that be useful to microformats?
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  97. # May 20 03:37:01 <annevk> csarven, I suggested to Hixie that data-* must not be used by UAs
  98. # May 20 03:37:20 <annevk> csarven, this excludes UA extensions such as versioning and also excludes microformats
  99. # May 20 03:37:53 <annevk> csarven, if microformats feel they need some attribute other than what they already got (such as a solution for time -> <time>) I think they can easily negotiate that with the HTML WG
  100. # May 20 03:38:08 <csarven> Philip` Not necessarily because of the "visible" bit. data-* almost falls on meta-data.
  101. # May 20 03:38:30 <csarven> annevk Right on.
  102. # May 20 03:38:40 <csarven> <time> is perfect IMHO
  103. # May 20 03:39:48 <annevk> Jacques Distler: "HTML5lib sucks." :-(
  104. # May 20 03:40:52 <annevk> Oh, he's complaining about performance...
  105. # May 20 03:41:14 <annevk> I think that's more or less a non-goal at this point. We need bindings to a C implementation to get that going strong...
  106. # May 20 03:41:30 * annevk adds a comment
  107. # May 20 03:41:55 <smedero> Anne: are you talking about this post? http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001689.html
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  109. # May 20 03:44:07 <annevk> yeah
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  147. # May 20 05:20:43 <andersca> Hixie: what was the rationale for making the dynamic entries ordered?
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  150. # May 20 05:36:36 <hsivonen> do C extensions to Ruby have to use UTF-8?
  151. # May 20 05:37:00 <hsivonen> C extensions to Python should use UTF-16 or UTF-32, right?
  152. # May 20 05:37:18 <jgraham> hsivonen: I think that's right (the python bit)
  153. # May 20 05:38:12 <jgraham> http://docs.python.org/api/unicodeObjects.html
  154. # May 20 05:38:31 <hsivonen> the difficult bit with recasting the V.nu tokenizer into UTF-8 C would be that REPLACEMENT CHARACTER would take more space than \0 and the tokenizer expects them to fit into the same space
  155. # May 20 05:39:52 <jgraham> If that's the only difficult bit it doesn't sound too bad
  156. # May 20 05:39:55 <jgraham> :)
  157. # May 20 05:45:06 <takkaria> I should mention I'm being paid to work on a C html5 parser this summer
  158. # May 20 05:45:58 <hsivonen> takkaria: what's your implementation strategy? from scratch? adapting an existing implementation?
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  160. # May 20 05:47:08 <jgraham> takkaria: I mentioned that on Jacques' blog
  161. # May 20 05:47:24 <jgraham> Is it a Summer of Code thing?
  162. # May 20 05:47:45 <jgraham> IIRC you are using lxml compatible interfaces?
  163. # May 20 05:47:58 <jgraham> sorry libxml2
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  165. # May 20 05:51:21 <takkaria> yes, summer of code
  166. # May 20 05:52:02 <takkaria> and there will be a libxml binding, yes
  167. # May 20 05:52:15 <takkaria> hsivonen: well, jmb (on this channel) has started, so it's not entirely from scratch
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  175. # May 20 06:17:42 <Hixie> to anyone who sent feedback over the past few days, please send mail
  176. # May 20 06:18:06 <Hixie> andersca: well it has to have some stable order for enumeration
  177. # May 20 06:18:11 <Hixie> andersca: apart from that, i don't really cre
  178. # May 20 06:18:14 <andersca> Hixie: OK
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  216. # May 20 08:26:16 * Hixie commits <iframe seamless>
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  218. # May 20 08:29:03 <hober> Hixie: formatting error
  219. # May 20 08:29:10 <hober> I see "he seamless/code> attr..."
  220. # May 20 08:29:11 <Hixie> yeah i'm on it
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  224. # May 20 08:33:22 <Hixie> ok fixed those
  225. # May 20 08:33:42 <Hixie> that was a mess :-)
  226. # May 20 08:33:48 <Hixie> ok let's see
  227. # May 20 08:34:18 <Hixie> i guess sandbox="" is next
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  233. # May 20 08:46:15 <MikeSmith> Hixie: small but important change:
  234. # May 20 08:46:25 <MikeSmith> "The reversed attribute is a boolean attribute. If present, it indicates that the list is an ascending list. If the attribute is present, the list is a descending list."
  235. # May 20 08:46:37 <MikeSmith> 2nd sentence should start "If absent,"
  236. # May 20 08:46:53 <MikeSmith> can send you mail about it if you want
  237. # May 20 08:48:10 <Hixie> actually i'm between edits right now so i can change it
  238. # May 20 08:48:14 <Hixie> but in general e-mail is definitely better
  239. # May 20 08:48:21 <Lachy> Hixie, when the src of a seamless iframe is changed to a document that is not the same origin (either via the dom or <a href=... target=the-iframe>), is that expected to change from a seamless frame to a normal iframe?
  240. # May 20 09:01:25 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
  241. # May 20 09:01:25 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
  242. # May 20 09:01:25 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
  243. # May 20 09:01:25 --- Notify: annevk is online (clarke.freenode.net).
  244. # May 20 09:01:25 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (clarke.freenode.net).
  245. # May 20 09:01:27 <jwalden_> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/436577
  246. # May 20 09:01:44 <jwalden_> I'm not getting a message saying it'll appear after moderation or anything like that
  247. # May 20 09:01:54 <jwalden_> so I don't know what's up with it
  248. # May 20 09:02:17 <jwalden_> just redirects back to the main blog page
  249. # May 20 09:04:09 <-- jwalden_ has quit ("bbl, fire alarm in W20 :-)")
  250. # May 20 09:04:52 * Hixie tries to comment too
  251. # May 20 09:05:00 <Hixie> wfm
  252. # May 20 09:06:15 <Hixie> (i used safari 3)
  253. # May 20 09:06:19 <Hixie> (trunk
  254. # May 20 09:06:20 <Hixie> )
  255. # May 20 09:07:09 <Hixie> one day i'll stop working on browsers and then i'll have to pick a preferred browser that i use everywhere, instead of switching browsers every 2 minutes...
  256. # May 20 09:07:45 <-- MikeSmith has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  257. # May 20 09:08:31 <gavin_> when you have to do something on the web that's not testing browsers, do you really just randomly pick one?
  258. # May 20 09:09:00 <gavin_> you don't care about any of the stuff that browsers keep track of for you?
  259. # May 20 09:09:02 --> othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.225) has joined #whatwg
  260. # May 20 09:10:07 --- You are now known as MikeSmith
  261. # May 20 09:12:15 <Hixie> gavin_: i use multiple machines and i nuke my profiles regularly, so no
  262. # May 20 09:15:28 <-- othermaciej has quit ()
  263. # May 20 09:15:40 --> jwalden (n=waldo@dhcp-18-188-73-85.dyn.MIT.EDU) has joined #whatwg
  264. # May 20 09:16:10 <Hixie> jwalden: wfm using safari trunk; might be a browser problem.
  265. # May 20 09:16:26 <Hixie> jwalden: good comment btw
  266. # May 20 09:16:31 <jwalden> Firefox 2? that would be pernicious
  267. # May 20 09:16:43 <Hixie> oh i assumed you were using ff trunk
  268. # May 20 09:16:44 * jwalden tries Safari 3.latest
  269. # May 20 09:16:51 <Hixie> afk, brb
  270. # May 20 09:16:54 <jwalden> I'm lame
  271. # May 20 09:21:21 <jwalden> would have been nice for MSFT to point out their implementation isn't up to latest spec, but I'm guessing that's just their paranoia about saying what they're doing before they do it :-\
  272. # May 20 09:22:00 <jwalden> or rather, to say that anyone who experiments should expect future breakage
  273. # May 20 09:22:57 --> KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-dd1ee2c8f45a4e89) has joined #whatwg
  274. # May 20 09:24:30 <Hixie> jwalden: when you're in an abusive relationship, and your spouse has been beating you for 15 years, flinching when they raise their hand to hug you isn't paranoia
  275. # May 20 09:24:49 <Hixie> it's good sense
  276. # May 20 09:25:23 <MikeSmith> jwalden: "Our policy gives our customers more predictability in their planning."
  277. # May 20 09:25:31 <MikeSmith> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/05/13/may-chat-with-the-ie-team-on-thursday.aspx#8502193
  278. # May 20 09:25:32 --- mcarter__ is now known as mcarter
  279. # May 20 09:26:48 <Hixie> MikeSmith: that answer is especially stupid given microsoft's policy of announcing everything years before they have implemented it
  280. # May 20 09:26:49 <MikeSmith> predictability meaning, I guess, that their customers can consistently plan on them not giving any information about anything until they ship it
  281. # May 20 09:26:54 <MikeSmith> yeah
  282. # May 20 09:27:21 <Hixie> (my favourite example being winfs, which iirc was announced around when Windows 95 was in beta)
  283. # May 20 09:27:33 <Hixie> (13 or 14 years ago)
  284. # May 20 09:28:15 <MikeSmith> announce ahead when it's convenient and useful (even vaporware), don't announce anything else ahead unless it gives some potential market advantage to do so
  285. # May 20 09:28:28 <jwalden> I think there's a double standard here, tho, of announcing something (so committing to it being there) before it's ready and not announcing it until it's complete
  286. # May 20 09:28:44 <roc> Hixie, I think you're mixing up WinFS with the "Cairo" "OLE file system"
  287. # May 20 09:28:54 <roc> I think they cancelled the project at least once in between :-)
  288. # May 20 09:29:03 <Hixie> roc: right
  289. # May 20 09:29:23 <Hixie> roc: i just mean their "next generation" file system to come after NTFS which is somehow "revolutionary"
  290. # May 20 09:30:01 <Hixie> the actual project has, as you say, been announced and canceled and reannounced many times since the original announcement
  291. # May 20 09:30:35 <MikeSmith> I think in part that policy is just a general kneejerk policy of unnecessary secrecy -- of keeping everything in development (across all their product lines) secret by default
  292. # May 20 09:30:42 <Hixie> i really do think the abusive relationship analogy is appropriate here, btw, right down to people being willing to forgive them any time they claim to have turned over a new leaf
  293. # May 20 09:30:48 <MikeSmith> it reminds me of the Bush administration secrecy policy
  294. # May 20 09:31:18 <MikeSmith> which has resulted in more stuff being made secret in the last eight years than in the previous 40 or something years combined
  295. # May 20 09:31:19 <Hixie> (and right down to the feeling i have of watching the relationship -- i've seen abusive relationships and it's pretty much exactly the same feeling)
  296. # May 20 09:31:50 <Hixie> MikeSmith: but the point is they DON'T keep everything secret!
  297. # May 20 09:32:03 <MikeSmith> yeah, same as Bush admin
  298. # May 20 09:32:08 <MikeSmith> they leak stuff when they want to
  299. # May 20 09:32:30 <roc> Silverlight is the best current example of this
  300. # May 20 09:32:30 <MikeSmith> like the "Valerie Plame is a CIA agent" thing
  301. # May 20 09:32:34 <jwalden> everybody does that, a way of saying something without saying it
  302. # May 20 09:32:41 <roc> its feature set has been announced for years and it hasn't even shipped yet
  303. # May 20 09:32:53 <jwalden> it's kinda smarmy, but it's common practice
  304. # May 20 09:33:00 <Hixie> i thought silverlight 2 had shipped
  305. # May 20 09:33:05 <Hixie> am i falling prey to the fud too?
  306. # May 20 09:33:05 <roc> don't think so
  307. # May 20 09:33:24 <Hixie> so what is it that microsoft.com asks me to install every time i go there?
  308. # May 20 09:33:43 <Hixie> oh sl2 is in beta
  309. # May 20 09:33:44 <Hixie> ok
  310. # May 20 09:33:58 <MikeSmith> while I can see a policy like that making sense for their other products -- or for other classes of products in general -- I think it makes a lot less sense for IE, or for a browser product in general
  311. # May 20 09:34:32 <MikeSmith> because for one thing they're not selling it, nor is anybody else selling a desktop browser
  312. # May 20 09:36:37 --> weinig (n=weinig@12.149.149.34) has joined #whatwg
  313. # May 20 09:38:27 <-- eseidel has quit ()
  314. # May 20 09:45:43 <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, you got me in the Acks twice, as "Michael Smith" and "Mike Smith".. not sure I merit being in there at all (since the stuff I've commented on has mostly just been minor editorial things) but if you do have me in there, "Michael(tm) Smith" would be preferred (to make it clear which Michael Smith among the nation of Michael Smiths it is)
  315. # May 20 09:47:42 <Hixie> (tm) or &trade; ? :-)
  316. # May 20 09:48:40 <Lachy> MikeSmith, what's the purpose of the (tm) in your name?
  317. # May 20 09:49:05 <Hixie> he just said what the purpose was
  318. # May 20 09:49:16 <Hixie> "to make it clear which Michael Smith among the nation of Michael Smiths it is
  319. # May 20 09:49:17 <Hixie> "
  320. # May 20 09:50:11 <Lachy> ok, but why use TM? Is it your middle initials or something?
  321. # May 20 09:50:32 <Hixie> "trademark"
  322. # May 20 09:50:59 * Hixie upgrades Lachy's sense of humour to the latest security update :-P
  323. # May 20 09:51:15 <Lachy> yeah, I get that it means trademark. But I don't get the relevance
  324. # May 20 09:52:30 <Hixie> it's irony
  325. # May 20 09:52:39 <Hixie> but i don't know how to explain it
  326. # May 20 09:53:10 <Hixie> like, "I'm going to go and eat now, because I'm Hungry(tm)"
  327. # May 20 09:53:15 <MikeSmith> Lachy: what Hixie said :)
  328. # May 20 09:55:49 <Lachy> ok, so I guess there's no logical or rational explanation for it and I just need to accept it :-(
  329. # May 20 09:57:29 <Hixie> it's irony because his name is so common, yet he claims it as a trademark
  330. # May 20 09:57:41 <Hixie> it's perfectly rational, but i don't know how to explain it :-)
  331. # May 20 09:57:50 <Hixie> MikeSmith: spec is updated btw
  332. # May 20 09:58:04 <Lachy> ok, that's better explanation.
  333. # May 20 10:01:35 <MikeSmith> Hixie: cheers
  334. # May 20 10:01:41 <MikeSmith> saw your checkins
  335. # May 20 10:04:06 * Lachy wonders why he didn't receive twitter updates for the recent spec checkins
  336. # May 20 10:04:34 <Hixie> did twitter get them?
  337. # May 20 10:04:45 <-- jwalden has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.80-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  338. # May 20 10:04:57 <Lachy> yeah, the iframe seamless one is there, but I didn't receive it
  339. # May 20 10:06:58 <Lachy> ah, it's twitters crappy jabber implementation that stops sending me twitter updates sometimes
  340. # May 20 10:08:10 --- Notify: karlUshi is online (clarke.freenode.net).
  341. # May 20 10:09:34 <Hixie> i haven't been able to get the jabber to work, like, ever
  342. # May 20 10:09:56 <Lachy> what do you use to receive updates?
  343. # May 20 10:10:25 * Philip` would have assumed Hixie already knew about updates to the spec without having to get Twitter notifications :-p
  344. # May 20 10:10:53 <Hixie> Lachy: i don't follow twitter
  345. # May 20 10:11:50 <Hixie> i only use it to get direct twitters when i'm expecting them (and then i just look at the site, half the time i don't get e-mail notifications)
  346. # May 20 10:12:06 <Hixie> other than that, for me, it's a write-only medium
  347. # May 20 10:14:01 --> jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-TWO-EIGHTY.MIT.EDU) has joined #whatwg
  348. # May 20 10:15:53 <-- aroben has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  349. # May 20 10:17:18 <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#xxxoriginpleasesuggestabettername
  350. # May 20 10:17:34 <Hixie> just for the record
  351. # May 20 10:17:40 <Hixie> that is not a proposal for the name
  352. # May 20 10:17:56 <Hixie> and if anyone implements that keyword i will personally hunt them down
  353. # May 20 10:32:58 <Lachy> Hixie, add sandbox to "The DOM attributes src, name, and seamless must reflect the content attributes of the same name. "
  354. # May 20 10:34:29 <Hixie> will do
  355. # May 20 10:34:36 <Hixie> haven't got that far yet
  356. # May 20 10:34:40 <Lachy> ok.
  357. # May 20 10:34:57 <Lachy> will there be a DOMTokenList attribute for the sandbox?
  358. # May 20 10:36:48 <roc> it would be useful if the spec document was published in multiple versions with different stability
  359. # May 20 10:37:05 <Hixie> roc: hm, interesting idea
  360. # May 20 10:37:09 <Hixie> roc: how would that work?
  361. # May 20 10:37:20 <roc> not sure
  362. # May 20 10:37:44 <jwalden> html5-mm
  363. # May 20 10:37:47 <roc> but right now, for authors and implementors its hard to tell what is set in stone and what is likely to change
  364. # May 20 10:37:50 <Lachy> roc, why would that be useful?
  365. # May 20 10:37:58 <Lachy> oh
  366. # May 20 10:38:04 <Hixie> roc: well, the sections do have annotations
  367. # May 20 10:38:11 <Hixie> roc: which should make it relatively easy
  368. # May 20 10:38:18 <roc> and what is likely to get them hunted down :-)
  369. # May 20 10:38:21 <Hixie> roc: but the presentation could do with some work, true
  370. # May 20 10:42:04 <-- KevinMarks has quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  371. # May 20 10:48:12 <roc> not all the sections have annotations
  372. # May 20 10:49:29 <roc> and it's hard to see what is covered by each annotation, especially if you happen to jump to the middle of the document and there's no annotation visible. I guess that's what you mean by the presentation needing work.
  373. # May 20 10:50:52 --> aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) has joined #whatwg
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  375. # May 20 10:53:19 <Hixie> roc: yeah
  376. # May 20 10:53:30 <Hixie> roc: i'm slowly adding annotations
  377. # May 20 10:53:52 <Hixie> roc: any help in either that or making the presentation better would be welcome
  378. # May 20 10:57:18 <jwalden> Hixie: what's the "tests: ##" thing supposed to mean in the annotation boxes? some whatwg/w3-maintained test suite or something?
  379. # May 20 10:57:51 <Hixie> links (one URI per line) to any tests you know of
  380. # May 20 10:57:56 <-- aroben has quit (Nick collision from services.)
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  382. # May 20 10:58:43 <jwalden> ah
  383. # May 20 11:00:58 <jwalden> I suppose that doesn't work so well for cross-domain tests
  384. # May 20 11:01:20 <MikeSmith> Hixie: the XXX convention in the spec is something you consistently use to indicates a placeholder ("we're not done here yet") thing?
  385. # May 20 11:01:25 <Hixie> jwalden: ?
  386. # May 20 11:01:30 <Hixie> MikeSmith: yes
  387. # May 20 11:01:42 <Hixie> the blue line on the chart shows the count of XXX markers
  388. # May 20 11:01:48 <MikeSmith> aha
  389. # May 20 11:02:01 <MikeSmith> wondered what that blue line was
  390. # May 20 11:02:23 * MikeSmith is remined of Errol Morris film "The Thin Blue Line"
  391. # May 20 11:02:41 <jwalden> er, yeah, I suppose you could set up tests on a bunch of real servers
  392. # May 20 11:02:51 <jwalden> would be a pain, but you could do it, I guess
  393. # May 20 11:04:00 <Hixie> not that much of a pain
  394. # May 20 11:04:08 <Hixie> i do it for a bunch of tests on hixie.ch
  395. # May 20 11:04:15 <Hixie> they use another.domain.libpr0n.com as the other domain
  396. # May 20 11:04:30 <Hixie> just one symlink
  397. # May 20 11:05:17 <Hixie> for the record, browsers all suck
  398. # May 20 11:05:23 <-- dbaron has quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  399. # May 20 11:05:35 <Hixie> i just wasted like 30 minutes trying to debug something in safari using the safari web developer tools
  400. # May 20 11:05:47 <Hixie> which frankly are crappy compared to firebug and other things available for firefox
  401. # May 20 11:05:59 <Hixie> but god, safari loads the html5 spec so much faster than firefox
  402. # May 20 11:07:53 <-- andersca has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  403. # May 20 11:09:19 <Hixie> (safari also reloads way more than necessary when all i do is change a fragment identifier, and doesn't reload the tabs when it crashes)
  404. # May 20 11:09:34 <Hixie> (and occasionally it seems to get wedged in a state where it won't download any pages)
  405. # May 20 11:10:00 <Hixie> but it feels much lighter than firefox
  406. # May 20 11:10:07 <Hixie> at least on mac
  407. # May 20 11:15:10 --- [mcarter] (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net) : Michael Carter
  408. # May 20 11:15:10 --- [mcarter] #orbited #whatwg
  409. # May 20 11:15:10 --- [mcarter] irc.freenode.net :http://freenode.net/
  410. # May 20 11:15:10 --- [mcarter] is identified to services
  411. # May 20 11:15:10 --- [mcarter] End of WHOIS list.
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  413. # May 20 11:57:50 --- weinig is now known as weinig|away
  414. # May 20 12:02:46 <Hixie> bbl
  415. # May 20 12:03:13 --> jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-174-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #whatwg
  416. # May 20 12:04:39 --> dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-153-3.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #whatwg
  417. # May 20 12:06:46 <MikeSmith> I'm trying to figure out what the main use cases are the the Opera File I/O proposal would enable
  418. # May 20 12:07:36 <MikeSmith> I mean what specific feature it would bring to users that existing applications can't
  419. # May 20 12:07:52 <MikeSmith> features
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  438. # May 20 16:50:26 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
  439. # May 20 16:50:26 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
  440. # May 20 16:50:26 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
  441. # May 20 16:50:26 --- Notify: annevk is online (anthony.freenode.net).
  442. # May 20 16:50:26 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (anthony.freenode.net).
  443. # May 20 16:53:46 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
  444. # May 20 16:53:46 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
  445. # May 20 16:53:46 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
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  486. # May 20 17:53:04 <annevk> Hixie, "an descending"
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  502. # May 20 18:21:10 <annevk> Hixie, seamless is not a boolean on the IDL
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  527. # May 20 19:13:32 <hendry> i need to draw a graph. what to library to use. seems to be so many nowadays.
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  541. # May 20 20:15:49 <Philip`> hendry: Gnuplot!
  542. # May 20 20:16:35 * Philip` has almost figured out how to use that, so he doesn't want to waste the investment by switching to anything else
  543. # May 20 20:22:51 --> jacobolus (n=jacobolu@140.247.142.62) has joined #whatwg
  544. # May 20 20:24:35 <Lachy> hendry, it depends what you need to draw the graph for and where you intend to use it.
  545. # May 20 20:24:47 * MikeSmith reads jwalden comment on IE Blog posting about cross-document messaging
  546. # May 20 20:24:51 <MikeSmith> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/05/19/enabling-mash-ups-in-internet-explorer-8-with-cross-document-messaging.aspx#8520209
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  549. # May 20 20:31:18 <MikeSmith> by way of summary at Ajaxian:
  550. # May 20 20:31:35 <MikeSmith> http://ajaxian.com/archives/ie-8-and-cross-document-messaging
  551. # May 20 20:31:37 --- Notify: nwalsh is offline (heinlein.freenode.net).
  552. # May 20 20:32:18 * MikeSmith wonders how Dion Almaer makes time to code and still blog & tweet as much as he does
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  555. # May 20 20:58:02 <hendry> Lachy: on the Web with Firefox 3. need to plot a simple approximate 2d graph to demonstrate an idea. I guess inkscape is probably best. I love xfig but it doesn't do SVG I guess.
  556. # May 20 21:00:34 <Lachy> hendry, yeah, you could use SVG or <canvas>.
  557. # May 20 21:00:47 <Lachy> If you want it generated dynamcially from a table of data, you could use PlotKit
  558. # May 20 21:00:50 <Philip`> Or PNG
  559. # May 20 21:01:17 <Philip`> Avoid overcomplication :-)
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  562. # May 20 21:18:53 --- Notify: nwalsh is online (heinlein.freenode.net).
  563. # May 20 21:23:49 <hsivonen> http://joeclark.org/access/webaccess/WCAG/response1_Understanding-WCAG2.html interesting points
  564. # May 20 21:26:55 --> weinig (n=weinig@12.149.149.34) has joined #whatwg
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  566. # May 20 21:38:10 <Dashiva> hsivonen: There's also the whole "wcag process isn't accessible" thing that nobody wants to talk about :)
  567. # May 20 21:39:34 <Philip`> "If data were understandable by themselves, we wouldn’t make a chart." seems untrue - we'd make a chart if the chart was more understandable than the data, even if the data was already understandable
  568. # May 20 21:40:30 <Lachy> "A slider? That requires a mouse, not to mention full vision. " - How does a slider require a mouse? It can be used by keyboard users if implemented correctly
  569. # May 20 21:40:39 <hsivonen> Dashiva: I don't have a diagnosed learning disability, but I find WCAG2 and ATAG2 hard to follow, because they are so abstract and then lawyerly on top of that
  570. # May 20 21:40:59 <Lachy> maybe that was true when the document was written, and there was no way to add a slider to a web page accessibly
  571. # May 20 21:41:18 <hsivonen> Lachy: it's from 2006
  572. # May 20 21:41:22 <Lachy> ok
  573. # May 20 21:47:16 <Dashiva> I thing I've been wondering is if (e.g.) red-green colorblind people are more likely to think "red looks like green", "green looks like red", "red and green are different, but I can't tell them apart" or "red and green are two names for the same color"
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  579. # May 20 22:10:23 * MikeSmith notes Updated: 2006.05.23 at the bottom of that article
  580. # May 20 22:15:47 --> You are now talking on #whatwg
  581. # May 20 22:15:47 --- Topic for #whatwg is WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
  582. # May 20 22:15:47 --- Topic for #whatwg set by gsnedders at Wed Dec 19 05:41:19 2007
  583. # May 20 22:15:47 --- Notify: annevk is online (leguin.freenode.net).
  584. # May 20 22:15:47 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (leguin.freenode.net).
  585. # May 20 22:15:54 --- Notify: nwalsh is online (leguin.freenode.net).
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  589. # May 20 22:41:34 <Lachy> http://css-tricks.com/html-5-vs-xhtml-2-an-article-roundup-and-poll/
  590. # May 20 22:43:23 <Lachy> also note the poll at the bottom of the right column. XHTML2 (33%, 33 votes) is ahead of HTML5 (18%, 17 votes)
  591. # May 20 22:47:25 <-- weinig has quit ()
  592. # May 20 22:48:34 <Philip`> Lachy: The people have spoken - HTML5 is doomed :-(
  593. # May 20 22:50:52 <Lachy> indeed. I'm going to quit now and join the XHTML2 group before it's too late.
  594. # May 20 23:00:36 <Dashiva> Darn, I wish someone told me the future of the web was decided on a first-come, first-vote, 50-votes-only basis
  595. # May 20 23:01:13 <hsivonen> Dashiva: cf. The Workshop :-)
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  602. # May 20 23:47:23 <Lachy> Dashiva, there were more votes. But most people voted don't care.
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The end :)