/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 29 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:04] <roc> finally! http://ajaxian.com/archives/announcing-ajax-libraries-api-speed-up-your-ajax-apps-with-googles-infrastructure
  6. # [00:09] <Philip`> The internet is hard because all the functionality and data is distributed and distributed systems are hard, so it's good that Google is aiming to save us by providing a single centralised source for all services and data
  7. # [00:09] <roc> yes it is
  8. # [00:09] <Philip`> We won't need internet connections at all, we can just have a Google connection
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  11. # [00:11] <Philip`> Single points of failure that can break vast swathes of the web are always good too
  12. # [00:11] <roc> yeah. http://webaccelerator.google.com/
  13. # [00:12] <annevk> that product is nice, it exposes incorrect usage of GET
  14. # [00:13] * Philip` wonders how the hosting of ajax.googleapis.com compares to e.g. Akamai
  15. # [00:14] <roc> perhaps comparable service levels, but AFAIK random people can't use Akamai for free
  16. # [00:15] <roc> actually, at least early on, random people *could* Akamize their URLs, because the sales staff were selling service faster than they could whitelist referrers, so they'd just track down heavy unauthorized usage after the fact. Not sure if that's changed
  17. # [00:18] <Philip`> Hmm, Akamai seems to be directly peered to all the ISPs I can test, and ajax.googleapis.com looks like it is too (except with four more hops and no reverse DNS)
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  20. # [00:20] <annevk> http://six03.com/blog/html5/
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  24. # [00:27] * Hixie looks at notifications APIs
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  27. # [00:32] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/notes
  28. # [00:33] <Philip`> OS notifications apply to windows, which seems pretty useless when the notifier is probably in a non-visible tab in that window
  29. # [00:35] <othermaciej> one interesting form of notification you are missing is badging the dock icon
  30. # [00:35] <Hixie> good point
  31. # [00:35] <othermaciej> on mac
  32. # [00:35] <Hixie> though that wouldn't make much sense if you have shared tabs
  33. # [00:35] <othermaciej> it is common to badge with unread counts
  34. # [00:36] <othermaciej> but it might make sense in a window-per-app model like Fluid
  35. # [00:36] <othermaciej> I'm not sure how you would reconcile it with use in a general browser (probably not allow it, or maybe badge the tab instead)
  36. # [00:36] <Hixie> yeah
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  38. # [00:37] <roc> I don't think Fluid or Prism actually restrict the app to one window, so they'd probably need to implement something flexible
  39. # [00:37] <roc> or provide a configuration option
  40. # [00:38] <othermaciej> I believe Fluid has some form of dock icon badging
  41. # [00:38] <Philip`> Presumably notifications are useful only for web apps which the user uses a lot, not for random web pages, so would it be reasonable to require it to be opt-in per site? (preferably with the site offering the option to the user, then calling some script function which makes the browser non-modally ask the user for confirmation, or whatever)
  42. # [00:39] <roc> the browser could show the notification in the tab, with some UI that lets it move out to the dock or taskbar or whatever
  43. # [00:39] <othermaciej> it would be annoying to let a random tab bounce the browser dock icon
  44. # [00:39] * Philip` doesn't fancy ads making any part of his browser UI start bouncing and flashing
  45. # [00:39] <Hixie> the proposal i wrote up in that file suggests that the notifications would only appear inside the window until the user clicked a button on a notification to opt that origin into being able to send them system-wide
  46. # [00:39] <roc> yeah, that sounds good
  47. # [00:40] <Hixie> not sure what to do about bouncing the dock icon, i think maybe we should not provide that separately and just make the notifications bounce the icon if that origin is opted in to the side-wide thing
  48. # [00:40] <Hixie> it seems bad form to ask for the user's attention without saying why anyway
  49. # [00:40] <Philip`> That doesn't sound good since I have one browser window and dozens of tabs, and I don't want all of them to be able to distract me when I'm working on something totally unrelated in a different tab
  50. # [00:41] <Hixie> s/window/tab/
  51. # [00:41] <Philip`> (even if it's in the same window)
  52. # [00:41] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  53. # [00:44] <Hixie> gears' version of this has displayAtTime, displayUntilTime, and addAction() APIs
  54. # [00:45] <Hixie> i wonder what the use case for those was
  55. # [00:45] * Hixie shall have to contact them
  56. # [00:45] <Philip`> Do those get scheduled and displayed even if you've navigated away from the page that added them?
  57. # [00:46] <Philip`> (e.g. you could visit your calendar page once, and it'd remind you of all events for the rest of the day)
  58. # [00:46] <Philip`> (at least until your browser crashed and restarted and then you forgot to revisit the calendar to reset the scheduled notifications and missed your appointments)
  59. # [00:46] <roc> that wouldn't be a great approach
  60. # [00:46] <roc> meetings could change online and you'd get stale data
  61. # [00:47] <annevk> what was the whatwg.org link again for the expected timeline?
  62. # [00:48] <Philip`> annevk: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/TIMETABLE ?
  63. # [00:48] <annevk> ah
  64. # [00:48] <annevk> I was trying current-work/timeline
  65. # [00:48] <annevk> and also TIMELINE
  66. # [00:48] <annevk> but not table
  67. # [00:49] <Philip`> I tried Google instead :-)
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  70. # [01:16] <Hixie> yeah I'm not sure I follow the use case for the scheduled notifications
  71. # [01:17] <Hixie> i'm baffled by why some people seem to want range.insertNode() to not insert the node into the range, but only when the range is collapsed
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  73. # [01:18] <annevk> Hixie, calendar apps?
  74. # [01:19] <Hixie> yeah but see what roc said
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  76. # [01:20] <annevk> presumably if that happened the app would update the notification?
  77. # [01:20] <roc> either the app is running in a browser context or it isn't
  78. # [01:20] <roc> if it is, it doesn't need the timed events
  79. # [01:21] <roc> if it isn't, there's a problem with staleness
  80. # [01:24] * Philip` attempts to write feedback on arc(), but then realises he already did it a month ago
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  98. # [02:39] <andersca> Hixie?
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  100. # [02:45] <Lachy_> jgraham, yt?
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  102. # [02:53] <Hixie> andersca: here
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  106. # [03:19] <andersca> Hixie: just sent mail to the whatwg list
  107. # [03:24] <Hixie> cool
  108. # [03:24] <Hixie> what's the priority?
  109. # [03:26] <Hixie> andersca: does the fallback thing help?
  110. # [03:27] <andersca> Hixie: I don't think so, since it requires the namespace to have the same domain as the manifest
  111. # [03:28] <Hixie> ah indeed
  112. # [03:28] <andersca> Hixie: also, it would be nice to be able to handle the mt[0-9].google.com case too
  113. # [03:28] <andersca> I'd say the priority is "medium"
  114. # [03:28] <Hixie> my guess would be that i would just make the onlien whitelist a list of uri prefixes
  115. # [03:29] <Hixie> and you'd list the 10 google.com hosts in the file
  116. # [03:29] <andersca> yeah, that sounds good
  117. # [03:29] <Hixie> feel free to experiment with doing that and mail your experiences to the list :-)
  118. # [03:29] <andersca> will do, thanks!
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  232. # [08:30] <BenMillard> today I decided to skim some recent IRC logs and public-HTML messages
  233. # [08:30] <BenMillard> I think ignoring almost all public-HTML e-mail was the right choice for me, albeit a tough one
  234. # [08:31] <BenMillard> I also think ignoring nearly everything from this channel is the right choice for me
  235. # [08:31] <BenMillard> not because either are of poor quality or whatever
  236. # [08:32] <BenMillard> it's simply that the time I'd spend tracking it all wouldn't make me more useful or productive
  237. # [08:33] <BenMillard> in more positive news, Mozilla are now funding me to do more work along the lines of Collections of Interesting Data Tables: http://blog.hecker.org/2008/05/28/mozilla-foundation-activities-week-ending-20080523/
  238. # [08:39] <othermaciej> BenMillard: that's cool
  239. # [08:40] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@169.sub-75-210-3.myvzw.com) ("The computer fell asleep")
  240. # [08:44] <BenMillard> othermaciej, thanks :)
  241. # [08:44] <BenMillard> this was the proposal I gave them: http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/html5-research
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  243. # [09:24] <hsivonen> Dashiva: paragraphs in the Bible can span over verse boundaries but if you were using normal CSSish counters, it would be natural in the markup sense to make verses siblings of each other without interrupting paragraphs
  244. # [09:26] <BenMillard> Hixie, ^ about Mozilla funding. Current thoughts are: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/05#day29
  245. # [09:27] <Hixie> hello
  246. # [09:27] <Hixie> yeah i saw the announcement -- someone mentioned it in #htmlwg. congratulations!
  247. # [09:27] * Hixie looks at your blog
  248. # [09:28] <Hixie> i'd love to see data on the img alt stuff, jgraham would be a great person to coordinate with on that, he has some good ideas of what to look for
  249. # [09:28] <Hixie> (though it's going to be tough to draw conclusions about what is most likely to get authors to do the most accessible thing from _any_ data, sadly)
  250. # [09:30] <BenMillard> hixie, cheers. I'll probably start by adding the 30 or so tables I didn't get add to the first study
  251. # [09:30] <BenMillard> and then analyse how frequently header+header relationships and <td scope> are used
  252. # [09:32] <Hixie> cool
  253. # [09:32] <BenMillard> jgraham and I previosuly coordinated on data table stuff, so doing that in parallel could work
  254. # [09:32] <Hixie> awesome
  255. # [09:32] <Hixie> one thing i'd caution against, looking at this list, is to not do anything that could be automated somehow -- if there's something that could be automated that you think needs doing, just let me know and i'll get some google resources to do it
  256. # [09:32] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  257. # [09:33] <Hixie> probably a better use of all our resources
  258. # [09:33] <Hixie> the most valuable thing you can bring to these studies is the human judgement aspect
  259. # [09:33] <BenMillard> hixie, yeah I can't compete with Google (or Philip` or gnsedders) when it comes to total numbers
  260. # [09:34] <Hixie> also one thing i can really help with is getting you lists of sample urls that have some markup feature
  261. # [09:35] <BenMillard> that would be another string to my bow :)
  262. # [09:36] <BenMillard> although I think it's more interesting to work from the other direction; finding types of content and then check the markup
  263. # [09:36] <Hixie> indeed
  264. # [09:36] <BenMillard> both ways are useful, though
  265. # [09:36] <BenMillard> I intend to spend maybe a week writing down every URL I come across in daily life to help target "normal" websites
  266. # [09:37] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  267. # [09:37] <Hixie> i could also get you a list of pages with high page rank or something, if you want
  268. # [09:37] <hsivonen> BenMillard: congratulations for the grant
  269. # [09:38] <BenMillard> hsivonen, thanks!
  270. # [09:38] <BenMillard> Hixie, these are all very cool offers and would be really helful
  271. # [09:38] <BenMillard> but right now, I need to make some websites to cover the money I've lost not making anything for the past 2 months!
  272. # [09:38] <Hixie> :-)
  273. # [09:38] <Hixie> feel free to contact me whenever
  274. # [09:39] <Hixie> give me a few days to get you data, it takes time to go through billions of files
  275. # [09:40] <BenMillard> I'll add a link to these logs to my blog, then when I return from making sites I can refresh my memory with all these options
  276. # [09:40] <BenMillard> it's really quite exciting!
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  286. # [10:09] <bosky101> hi. does anyone remember the site/url where someone(i think it was ian hixie) gave information of css classnames heuristics based on a large crawl
  287. # [10:11] <hsivonen> bosky101: http://code.google.com/webstats/
  288. # [10:13] <bosky101> brilliant! thanks
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  303. # [12:06] <annevk> hmm, the weather is terrible
  304. # [12:06] <Philip`> I disagree
  305. # [12:06] <Hixie> yeah, hasn't been above 25C all week
  306. # [12:06] <Hixie> i had to wear a coat today!
  307. # [12:07] <annevk> until now it was good, now it rains badly
  308. # [12:14] <Hixie> It feels so weird, writing all these "should"s
  309. # [12:14] <roc> It's freezing here
  310. # [12:14] <roc> down to 9C
  311. # [12:14] <Hixie> i guess it's coming on to winter in your neck of the woods
  312. # [12:15] <roc> definitely
  313. # [12:16] <annevk> freezing at 9C, hah
  314. # [12:16] <Philip`> Today is quite sunny - it should reach 20C if we're lucky
  315. # [12:16] <annevk> a few years back it reached -10 / -15 in Oslo at some points
  316. # [12:17] <Hixie> it reached -20C while i was there, for a few hours at night, irrc
  317. # [12:17] <Hixie> iirc
  318. # [12:17] <roc> I was joking. When I lived in Pittsburgh it reached -20C a few times
  319. # [12:17] <Hixie> -20C is stupid cold
  320. # [12:17] <annevk> brr
  321. # [12:17] * Hixie hugs the bay area
  322. # [12:17] <Hixie> we have two seasons here
  323. # [12:17] <Hixie> spring and summer
  324. # [12:17] <hsivonen> Is it warm on the inland side of the Bay?
  325. # [12:17] <hsivonen> San Francisco is *cold*
  326. # [12:17] <roc> yes
  327. # [12:17] <roc> yes it is
  328. # [12:18] <Hixie> SF doesn't count as the bay area, insofar as weather goes
  329. # [12:19] <roc> I'm actually amazed it doesn't get colder in Oslo than Pittsburgh
  330. # [12:19] <roc> I thought those Norse hackers were good because they couldn't go outside for six months
  331. # [12:20] <annevk> gulfstream
  332. # [12:20] <hsivonen> If I create a fresh document instance in JS and add <script> elements, will they run? if so, in what context?
  333. # [12:20] <annevk> well, it does get pretty dark in the winter most of the day :)
  334. # [12:20] <hsivonen> If I importNode script elements to the current HTML document, will they run?
  335. # [12:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes, and in that document's
  336. # [12:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: importNode will work if the <Script>s haven't already run
  337. # [12:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a way to tell a document object to be safe and not run scripts?
  338. # [12:21] <Hixie> not before html5, no
  339. # [12:21] <Hixie> <iframe sandbox> will do that though
  340. # [12:21] <Hixie> in new uas
  341. # [12:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: how does your live dom viewer handle script security from user input?
  342. # [12:21] <roc> the stupid irony of the Bay Area is that they have great weather but most of the population gains nothing due to late sleep patterns and/or insane work habits
  343. # [12:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: that domain has no cookies
  344. # [12:22] <Hixie> roc: hah, so true
  345. # [12:22] * Hixie saw dawn yesterday :-/
  346. # [12:23] <annevk> Hixie's working hours work for me :)
  347. # [12:23] <annevk> gives a reasonable Europe overlap
  348. # [12:23] <Hixie> that's partly why i do it
  349. # [12:23] <Hixie> at least, that's my excuse
  350. # [12:23] <Hixie> i could do it as easily if i got up early :-P
  351. # [12:25] <hsivonen> I find it bad for my health that people start having interesting discussions when it is late in the evening here
  352. # [12:25] <hsivonen> this time works much better for me
  353. # [12:25] <Hixie> heh
  354. # [12:26] <Hixie> hm
  355. # [12:26] <Hixie> the notification API has one problem
  356. # [12:26] <Hixie> if you open multiple instances of a calendar app
  357. # [12:27] <Hixie> and they all fire notifications for each event...
  358. # [12:27] * Quits: bosky101 (n=bosky101@61.17.193.222) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  359. # [12:27] <annevk> why would you do that?
  360. # [12:28] <Hixie> do what?
  361. # [12:29] <Philip`> They could use localStorage to synchronise between all the tabs
  362. # [12:29] <Hixie> seems unlikely that they'd bother
  363. # [12:29] <Hixie> i guess we can just tell uas to coallesce identical messages
  364. # [12:30] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  365. # [12:30] <annevk> open multiple tabs of the same app
  366. # [12:30] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  367. # [12:31] <Philip`> If I get two identical email messages, close enough together that their notifications will overlap, I'd probably want to receive two notifications, else I might miss the second message
  368. # [12:31] <Hixie> i do that sometiems with calender, either by mistake or to compare things
  369. # [12:31] <Hixie> if you get two identical messages, why would you care about the second one?
  370. # [12:32] <roc> "Missile launched!"
  371. # [12:32] <Philip`> *two different email messages but with identical subject lines so the subset of data used in the notifications is identical
  372. # [12:32] <Hixie> hmm
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  375. # [12:34] <Philip`> (Get one notification, switch to tab and read email message, get second notification but the UA coalesces it with the first so I can't tell there's been another message)
  376. # [12:34] <hsivonen> do iframes let the parent document remove the documentElement and create a new one?
  377. # [12:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: in principle, yes, in practice it depends on the UA
  378. # [12:35] <Hixie> Philip`: how about just having it say "x2" "x3" "x4" ?
  379. # [12:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you happen to remember if Gecko/WebKit/Opera allow removal and reinsertion of the document element?
  380. # [12:35] <Hixie> no idea
  381. # [12:35] <roc> Hixie: yeah, that's like Unix kernel messages
  382. # [12:35] <hsivonen> ok
  383. # [12:35] <hsivonen> thanks
  384. # [12:36] <roc> Error: not a typewriter (4 times)
  385. # [12:36] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acax53.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  386. # [12:36] <hsivonen> I'm trying to figure out if I should bother to make an HTML5 live DOM viewer using GWT and the Validator.nu parser
  387. # [12:36] <roc> sick
  388. # [12:37] <hsivonen> roc: why sick? isn't it cool compiler tech?
  389. # [12:37] <Hixie> sure, go for it :-)
  390. # [12:37] <hsivonen> I find that my code is one regexp removal away from GWT compat
  391. # [12:37] <roc> those things are not mutually exclusive
  392. # [12:37] <Philip`> If the coalescence only happened to notifications from different tabs, I suppose that'd avoid the missed-email problem except in quite rare cases
  393. # [12:38] <Philip`> so it probably wouldn't be a real problem then
  394. # [12:39] <roc> the 4x/4 times feature is nice for abusive code and for buggy code too
  395. # [12:39] * Philip` hopes the notification thing would include UI for disabling notifications from abusive sites
  396. # [12:40] <Philip`> (as well as the UI for enabling it first)
  397. # [12:40] <roc> nah
  398. # [12:40] <roc> well
  399. # [12:41] <roc> in Firefox the obvious thing would be to start by showing it in an infobar top-of-tab
  400. # [12:41] <annevk> i believe the design is that to make it system wide you first need to grant the site access somehow
  401. # [12:41] <roc> and give you options to make it go away or promote to desktop level
  402. # [12:41] <annevk> what roc said
  403. # [12:42] <Philip`> I'm thinking about what happens when unknowingly grant permission and then the site abuses the feature and you want to stop it
  404. # [12:42] <Hixie> actually i have this whole plan for how to deal with abuse
  405. # [12:42] <Hixie> the spec describes it, littered with "should"s
  406. # [12:42] <roc> one of the most interesting things we're doing on the Web is figuring out ways to let apps do everything they want without trust and without driving users mad with approve/deny decisions
  407. # [12:43] <Hixie> indeed
  408. # [12:44] <Philip`> You just a generic Cancel/Allow dialog box with a "[ ] remember this decision" checkbox
  409. # [12:44] <Philip`> s//need/
  410. # [12:44] <roc> no
  411. # [12:44] <roc> no no no
  412. # [12:44] <Philip`> Alas :-(
  413. # [12:46] * Hixie puts Philip` in the brig for 24 hours for even joking about suggesting that
  414. # [12:51] <annevk> so is Android just software or also hardware?
  415. # [12:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: since "textarea" isn't in the list of tags that escape foreign lands, whether to do case fixup or not has nothing to do with clashing with html since it'll be in the svg namespace anyway (re http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0805230003340.12911@hixie.dreamhostps.com )
  416. # [12:52] <Hixie> annevk: android is a software platform
  417. # [12:52] <annevk> so where is the hardware from?
  418. # [12:53] <Hixie> (in fact, it's an open source linux-based OS distribution, though the source hasn't been released yet aiui)
  419. # [12:53] <Hixie> the hardware comes from any hardware manufacturer, most likely those in the Open Handset Alliance: http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/oha_members.html
  420. # [12:54] <Hixie> look under "Handset Manufacturers"
  421. # [12:54] <Hixie> though typically handsets are sold through network operators ("Mobile Operators" on that list)
  422. # [12:55] <Hixie> (i mean, typically for any platform, not just android)
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  425. # [12:56] <annevk> I meant the hardware used in the demos, but I guess your answer works :)
  426. # [12:57] <Hixie> not sure about particular demos, they probably mentioned it in the relevant talks though
  427. # [12:59] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  428. # [12:59] <hsivonen> so Microsoft wasn't able to break the coupling of Java-the-language and Java-the-class-library, but now Google is doing it with GWT and Android
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  430. # [13:08] <roc> IBM also did it
  431. # [13:08] <hsivonen> true
  432. # [13:08] <hsivonen> actually, the only desktop Java app I run regularly is Eclipse
  433. # [13:08] <hsivonen> Swing lost
  434. # [13:10] <hsivonen> with Eclipse, though, the full J2SE class library is still there
  435. # [13:10] <hsivonen> not so with GWT which doesn't even have proper java.io
  436. # [13:10] <roc> I was thinking of other things
  437. # [13:10] <hsivonen> oh
  438. # [13:21] * annevk looks at the notifications API
  439. # [13:21] <Hixie> don't yet
  440. # [13:22] <Hixie> it'll be done momentarily
  441. # [13:23] <annevk> in the IDL it's listed under "// modal user prompts"
  442. # [13:23] <annevk> i guess modal should be removed there
  443. # [13:24] <Hixie> valid
  444. # [13:25] <Hixie> ok the spec is regenned
  445. # [13:26] <annevk> ah yeah, it differs a lot :)
  446. # [13:27] <annevk> it says "of abused" instead of "or abused"
  447. # [13:27] <Philip`> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ is broken
  448. # [13:28] <Hixie> it happens
  449. # [13:28] <annevk> also, should it be phrased in a way that does not require it to be visual? "show" makes me think it's visual only
  450. # [13:29] <Hixie> it'll fix itself the next time it regens
  451. # [13:29] <Hixie> happens every 24h
  452. # [13:29] <annevk> is "sandboxed notifications browsing context flag" a a new <iframe sandbox> feature?
  453. # [13:30] <Hixie> reload
  454. # [13:34] <annevk> still has the typo
  455. # [13:35] <annevk> (second paragraph, s/of/or/)
  456. # [13:38] <Hixie> oops, missed your comment above
  457. # [13:38] <Hixie> was meant to be "if" not "or" :-)
  458. # [13:39] <annevk> they can be annoying without being abused too!
  459. # [13:39] * annevk doesn't care about working of such things though
  460. # [13:42] <Hixie> hehe
  461. # [13:42] <annevk> wording, I mean, meh
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  463. # [13:45] <Philip`> "By default no origin should be flagged as such" - that's abuse of RFC2119 language
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  466. # [13:47] <virtuelv> Hixie: isn't showNotification a bit overengineered?
  467. # [13:47] <Hixie> how so?
  468. # [13:47] <virtuelv> I'd say that content and callback is sufficient
  469. # [13:47] <virtuelv> leave the title to the UA
  470. # [13:47] <Hixie> (it's a lot simpler than, say, the version gears has)
  471. # [13:47] <virtuelv> and drop the subtitle
  472. # [13:48] <virtuelv> void showNotification(in DOMString msg, in Function callback); is what Opera has in the widget spec
  473. # [13:48] <Hixie> for gmail we want notifications like:
  474. # [13:48] <Hixie> | Canvas line style comments
  475. # [13:48] <Hixie> | Philip Taylor
  476. # [13:48] <virtuelv> Hixie: try to remain compatible with Growl?
  477. # [13:48] <Hixie> | The spec says: "The lineCap attribute
  478. # [13:48] <Philip`> "user agents may allow users to whitelist flags or groups of flags as being trusted notification sources" - should that be s/flags/origins/g?
  479. # [13:48] <Hixie> | defines the type of endings ...
  480. # [13:49] <Hixie> Philip`: er yes.
  481. # [13:49] <virtuelv> Hixie: while you're at it: window.getAttention()
  482. # [13:50] <Hixie> what would that do?
  483. # [13:50] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d1f40be98e4a79fe)
  484. # [13:50] <virtuelv> typically, try to grab attention to the window, without grabbing focus
  485. # [13:50] <virtuelv> example: change tab color, flash task bar, etc
  486. # [13:50] <virtuelv> no arguments, no return value
  487. # [13:50] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  488. # [13:50] <Hixie> that seems far too abuseable
  489. # [13:50] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228015218.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  490. # [13:50] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  491. # [13:51] <virtuelv> abuseable, how?
  492. # [13:52] <Philip`> Hixie: "all subdomains and ports of *.example.org" - that should be "all subdomains and ports of example.org", or "all ports of any domain matching *.example.org" or something
  493. # [13:52] <Hixie> i don't want every porn site i go to to be flashing its task bar button at me
  494. # [13:52] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah... hmm
  495. # [13:52] <Philip`> Hixie: "Then, mail.example.com and calendar.example.com would both be able to show notifications" - s/.com/.org/
  496. # [13:52] <Hixie> oops
  497. # [13:53] <annevk> apparently IE has it, from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=293077
  498. # [13:54] <Hixie> IE has (had?) window.focus()
  499. # [13:54] <Hixie> which i even worse
  500. # [13:54] <annevk> oops, yeah
  501. # [13:54] <annevk> it does
  502. # [13:54] <virtuelv> Hixie: but you want them to display "Free porn" popups?
  503. # [13:54] <annevk> I think Opera has that too and Gmail abuses it which is annoying
  504. # [13:55] <Hixie> virtuelv: as defined, they can't, since hte popups are limited to the rendering area of the tab.
  505. # [13:55] <Hixie> virtuelv: (unless i click the button to trust the site)
  506. # [13:56] <Hixie> also, the real question is when would you want to grab attention without having something to grab attention about? if you have somethign to tell the user, use a notification.
  507. # [13:56] <Hixie> it'll do the getAttention() thing if the user trusts your site
  508. # [13:56] <virtuelv> Hixie: for instance a web-based IRC client that notifies you whenever someone mentions your name
  509. # [13:56] <virtuelv> like XChat does, for instance
  510. # [13:57] <Philip`> Hixie: "a manner consisted with the platform conventions" - s/consisted/consistent/
  511. # [13:57] <Hixie> why wouldn't you want it to show a notification with the line that was said
  512. # [13:57] <Hixie> oops, fixed, thanks
  513. # [13:58] <Philip`> Hixie: Should the first "should" in "Otherwise, the notification should be rendered in a manner consisted with the platform conventions for system-wide notifications, but it should be rendered within ..." be "should not"?
  514. # [13:58] <Hixie> no?
  515. # [13:58] <Hixie> why would we ever recommend against using platform conventions?
  516. # [13:59] <Philip`> It seems weird to say it should be consistent with platform conventions (which are always outside the browser window) and also that it should be inside the window
  517. # [13:59] <Hixie> i guess i could remove the first bit
  518. # [14:00] <Philip`> The latter "should" should be more important than the first one, so I'm not sure the first one is needed at all
  519. # [14:00] <Hixie> k
  520. # [14:00] <virtuelv> Hixie: because that line is far too intrusive
  521. # [14:00] <virtuelv> I just need to know that something has happened
  522. # [14:01] <Hixie> i'd want to know what happened
  523. # [14:01] <virtuelv> for instance, when someone mentions my name in a different tab in xchat, someone has mentioned my name
  524. # [14:01] <Hixie> i hate that i have to go look at my irc client to establish that they just said "nn"
  525. # [14:01] <annevk> what happens if only whitespace was passed?
  526. # [14:01] <Hixie> anyway
  527. # [14:01] <Hixie> that's moot
  528. # [14:01] <Hixie> because like i said
  529. # [14:01] <Hixie> getAttention() is far too abusable
  530. # [14:02] <Hixie> annevk: you get a blank notification with just the favicon and title of the page, i guess
  531. # [14:02] <Philip`> Hixie: "if a site contains a gadget of a mail application in a sandboxed iframe and that frame triggers a notification upon the receipt of a new e-mail message, that notification would be displayed on top of the gadget only." - the last bit seems wrong, since the notification would be displayed on the top-level browsing context instead of just the gadget
  532. # [14:03] <Philip`> Hixie: s/burried/buried/
  533. # [14:04] <virtuelv> what is the point of a notification if it can't escape the viewport for the page it originated from, btw?
  534. # [14:04] <Hixie> no, if it's sandboxed it'll be displayed on the iframe itself
  535. # [14:04] <Hixie> (fixed buried)
  536. # [14:05] <Hixie> virtuelv: the point is to show the user that the site supports notifications so that it can opt into showing them system-wide
  537. # [14:05] <virtuelv> I realise that you can trust the notification, but I'd need to know that something has happened in the tab to switch to it, I don't actually need the notification
  538. # [14:05] <Hixie> s/it/he/
  539. # [14:05] <Hixie> see the spec, even normal (not trusted) notifications make the tab caption get highlighted in some way
  540. # [14:05] <Philip`> Hixie: Is the sandboxed iframe a top-level browsing context?
  541. # [14:06] <virtuelv> Hixie: which is what getAttention() would do as well
  542. # [14:06] <Hixie> Philip`: no, how could it be?
  543. # [14:06] <Hixie> virtuelv: but there's no way to opt in with getAttention()
  544. # [14:06] <Hixie> virtuelv: and it's just a subset of showNotification()
  545. # [14:06] <Philip`> Hixie: It could have been defined that way without me noticing :-)
  546. # [14:07] <virtuelv> Hixie: more precisely, it's the empty subset of showNotification
  547. # [14:07] <Hixie> Philip`: ah :-)
  548. # [14:07] <Hixie> virtuelv: eh?
  549. # [14:07] <Philip`> Hixie: In that case, the spec just says "it should be rendered within the top-level browsing context of the browsing context associated with the script execution context of the script that invoked the method" and says nothing about it being displayed just on the sandboxed iframe
  550. # [14:08] <Hixie> look at the paragraph immediately above that one
  551. # [14:08] <virtuelv> empty: no title, subtitle, text or callback
  552. # [14:08] <virtuelv> or think of it as a subset of focus() that doesn't try to grab the window focus
  553. # [14:08] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, right, I missed/forgot that bit
  554. # [14:09] <virtuelv> I believe most WM's have a method called getAttention these days
  555. # [14:09] <Hixie> virtuelv: that would show a notification with the page title and favicon (and maybe domain name, and maybe time, and some buttons).
  556. # [14:09] <Hixie> virtuelv: most WMs assume that the user is running trusted code. The Web is different.
  557. # [14:09] <Hixie> anyway i should go to bed
  558. # [14:09] <Hixie> thanks for the review Philip`
  559. # [14:10] <virtuelv> Hixie: and that is more information than I would need to show
  560. # [14:10] <Hixie> virtuelv: i disagree :-)
  561. # [14:11] <virtuelv> Hixie: you have reinvented alert() asynchronously in this case, albeit a tab-modal one
  562. # [14:11] <annevk> it's not modal
  563. # [14:12] <Philip`> Hixie: Did you see my first comment?
  564. # [14:12] <Philip`> ('"By default no origin should be flagged as such" - that's abuse of RFC2119 language')
  565. # [14:12] <Hixie> Philip`: nope, missed that one too. will fix.
  566. # [14:13] <Hixie> virtuelv: yup, pretty much. except it's not modal, and is transient, and isn't locked to the page.
  567. # [14:13] * Joins: ralphm (n=ralphm@s559155b2.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  568. # [14:13] <Philip`> Hixie: "the user agent could just shown one" - s/shown/show/
  569. # [14:14] <Hixie> thanks, will fix that too
  570. # [14:14] <Philip`> Hixie: Why remove duplicate notifications that are from the same browsing context? That case seems most likely to be intentional (e.g. two identical emails) since there's only one instance of the application in that browsing context
  571. # [14:15] <ralphm> Hi! I'm toying with adding link elements pointing to XMPP end points, but I am not sure what rel values to use.
  572. # [14:15] <Hixie> Philip`: because having two notifications that are the same is dumb and ugly :-)
  573. # [14:16] <ralphm> Example: I have a page that is a representation of a resource, and want to offer an XMPP Publish-Subscribe endpoint that could be subscribed to, to receive updates when the resource changes.
  574. # [14:17] <Hixie> annevk: btw that bug is what caused me to start speccing this in the first place (it's the top e-mail in the dom-focus folder)
  575. # [14:17] <ralphm> Any ideas?
  576. # [14:17] <Hixie> i'm afraid i don't really know what an xmpp end point is
  577. # [14:17] <Hixie> but what about rel="xmpp-end-point"?
  578. # [14:18] <ralphm> Hixie: you do know about XMPP itself? I was actually thinking of rel="alternate feed"
  579. # [14:19] <Hixie> don't use two keywords
  580. # [14:19] <Hixie> it'll create two links
  581. # [14:20] <ralphm> yeah, intentionally. I read the description of the different link rels here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-links.html#feed
  582. # [14:20] <Hixie> oh, i see, you want to use the existing "alternate feed" definition
  583. # [14:20] <ralphm> yes
  584. # [14:20] <Hixie> so it's just an RSS page?
  585. # [14:20] <Hixie> except not RSS?
  586. # [14:20] <ralphm> it is not a page
  587. # [14:21] <Hixie> then don't use rel="alternate feed" :-)
  588. # [14:21] <ralphm> it would point to e.g. xmpp:pubsub.example.org?;node=test
  589. # [14:21] <ralphm> why not?
  590. # [14:21] <Hixie> (sounds complicated)
  591. # [14:21] <Hixie> rel="alternate feed" points to a syndication feed document
  592. # [14:22] <Hixie> which happens to contain the same content as the current document
  593. # [14:22] * MikeSmith says, cool to see ralphm on #whatwg
  594. # [14:22] <ralphm> well, that XMPP resource provides that, except not as a document as such
  595. # [14:22] <annevk> ralphm, I wouldn't use feed, feed is for RSS/Atom
  596. # [14:23] <annevk> ralphm, just mint xmpp-end-point or something
  597. # [14:23] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  598. # [14:23] <ralphm> you would get Atom entry documents sent over XMPP asynchronously whenever the resource changes
  599. # [14:23] <Hixie> lordy
  600. # [14:23] * mpt tries to imagine what the "I trust this Web site to show me notifications outside the browser window" would look like
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  602. # [14:24] <Hixie> mpt: a little icon that looks a bit like the windows "restore window" button icon, at the top left of the toast notification thingy
  603. # [14:25] <mpt> Or maybe like the "Undock" button for palettes in various art programs
  604. # [14:25] <ralphm> I would say the end result for the user would be similar, it is a feed, a client (given XMPP powers) would be able to subscribe to the feed and give the user updates, except without polling.
  605. # [14:26] <ralphm> so that's why I thought 'alternate feed' would be appropriate, although I understand it was not designed with XMPP in mind, per se.
  606. # [14:26] <Hixie> mpt: right
  607. # [14:27] <Hixie> ralphm: what's the use case for this? just changing to a push model instead of pull?
  608. # [14:28] <ralphm> Hixie: for this particular example, yes
  609. # [14:29] <Hixie> wouldn't that mean you couldn't have more than 65000 subscribers?
  610. # [14:29] <ralphm> also, it could be a feed for just one particular thing, like one blog item or one person's profile page
  611. # [14:29] <ralphm> Hixie: huh what?
  612. # [14:29] <ralphm> why?
  613. # [14:29] <Hixie> ralphm: isn't there a limit to how many clients can connect to an xmpp server at once?
  614. # [14:30] <Hixie> i guess they don't each need their own outgoing port
  615. # [14:30] <ralphm> Hixie: XMPP has a distributed server model, it scales pretty well
  616. # [14:31] <ralphm> also, the attempt to subscribe could point to a repeater of the same notifications, so that eventually scales infinitely
  617. # [14:31] <ralphm> and way better than Atom/RSS polling
  618. # [14:33] <Hixie> i guess it's just hte idea of sending html embedded in xml embedded in xml that has me worried
  619. # [14:33] <Hixie> anyway
  620. # [14:33] <Hixie> the main problem with using "feed" is that current era blog readers wouldn't be able to handle the xmpp: protocol
  621. # [14:33] <Hixie> and so you'd still want them to get the http: one
  622. # [14:34] <ralphm> yes, I would provide one of those too
  623. # [14:34] <Hixie> but the UA would in practie not know which to send to the blog reader
  624. # [14:34] <Hixie> so i'd recommend just minting a new pair of keywords like "xmpp-feed" and "main-xmpp-feed"
  625. # [14:34] <ralphm> also, we tend to design for the future, I hope
  626. # [14:35] <Hixie> sadly designing for the future without taking the present into account tends to lead to systems that never get adopted
  627. # [14:35] <ralphm> yeah, like annevk suggested. Sure I can do that, but I am wondering if we should define a new rel if the semantics are mostly identical, except for mapping to a different protocol scheme
  628. # [14:36] <hsivonen> ralphm: are you the person who discussed XMPP integration with annevk and me at XTech after lightning talks?
  629. # [14:36] <ralphm> hsivonen: yeah
  630. # [14:36] <Hixie> ralphm: well, it's not really the semantics that matter, it's how they are handled in the wild
  631. # [14:36] <hsivonen> ralphm: ok. (good to connect the threads)
  632. # [14:37] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  633. # [14:38] <ralphm> Hixie: a quick scan of web browser reveals that ie, safari seem to ignore the link (seems ok to me) and ff does show it, but nothing happens when you act on it (e.g. clicking on the feed icon)
  634. # [14:38] <Hixie> ralphm: if you do want to use feed/alternate feed, i recommend finding a dozen or so different blog readers, and testing them with a variety of different ways of linking the feeds, as picked from a big sample of blogs (e.g. the last 50 blogs mentioned on digg and reddit, and feeds from sites like facebook and twitter) and seeing what they do when you add xmpp: to the mix
  635. # [14:38] <Hixie> ralphm: well you need to test the browsers in conjunction with various blog reader software and blog reader sites
  636. # [14:39] <Hixie> ralphm: and you need to test not just how xmpp: works, but how the fallback to http: works when xmpp: is specified but not supported
  637. # [14:39] <Hixie> ralphm: since if that doesn't work very reliably, people just won't use it
  638. # [14:40] <Hixie> anyway, i have to go to bed now
  639. # [14:40] <Hixie> it being 25 to 6 :-)
  640. # [14:40] <ralphm> Hixie: yeah, that seems fair. Night and thanks
  641. # [14:40] <Hixie> np
  642. # [14:40] <Hixie> nn
  643. # [14:48] <ralphm> If anyone else has ideas or suggestions, that'd be most welcome. We want to draft a specification for auto discovery of XMPP entities and publish-subscribe topics within the XMPP Standards Foundation.
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  651. # [15:37] <gavin_> annevk: is there a way for me to followup on a bug I filed on Opera a long time ago?
  652. # [15:38] <annevk> nr?
  653. # [15:38] <gavin_> I don't remember
  654. # [15:38] <gavin_> and I can't find any email
  655. # [15:38] <annevk> e-mail?
  656. # [15:38] <annevk> address
  657. # [15:38] <gavin_> not sure of that either... gavin.sharp@gmail.com, or maybe gavin/gsharp@mozilla.com
  658. # [15:40] <annevk> bit busy, will look
  659. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: why was the name "Doctype" chosen for Google Doctype?
  660. # [15:40] <gavin_> thanks
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  663. # [15:42] <hsivonen> now instead of having to compete against w3cschools and Zeldman, I have to compete against Google itself for the search term "doctype"
  664. # [15:43] <hsivonen> in fact, Google Doctype pushed me off the first result page on google.fi
  665. # [15:43] <annevk> gavin_, ok, found something, it's marked fixed
  666. # [15:44] <hsivonen> still there on google.com
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  668. # [15:44] <annevk> gavin_, it's about setting Opera as the default browser
  669. # [15:45] <gavin_> yeah, that's the one
  670. # [15:45] <gavin_> cool
  671. # [15:45] <gavin_> is it in shipped builds?
  672. # [15:46] <gavin_> I suppose I should test
  673. # [15:46] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  674. # [15:46] <annevk> gavin_, should be in 9.5 builds i guess
  675. # [15:46] <gavin_> alright, thanks
  676. # [15:46] <annevk> gavin_, according to my data it was fixed over a year ago :)
  677. # [15:47] <gavin_> yeah, I reportred it a awhile ago and kinda forgot
  678. # [15:47] <gavin_> it was causing trouble with our profile importer
  679. # [15:47] <annevk> hereby thanks for the report :)
  680. # [15:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: is your Live DOM Viewer under an Open Source license?
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  683. # [16:13] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hixie hasn't sued me for copying and modifying it
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  685. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: not good enough :-(
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  692. # [17:01] <Lachy> Our presentation went well this morning
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  694. # [17:03] <annevk> thanks for telling us that!
  695. # [17:03] <annevk> :p
  696. # [17:03] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  697. # [17:03] <hsivonen> do Gecko/WebKit/Opera support DOM Level 3 setUserData?
  698. # [17:04] * gsnedders hopes he didn't look too stupid
  699. # [17:06] * Joins: Dashimon (i=Dashiva@30.80-202-223.nextgentel.com)
  700. # [17:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's why you should avoid ever having photos published :-p
  701. # [17:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: I should take a photo of you when you don't realise next time I see you :)
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  703. # [17:19] <annevk> Philip`, did you add a regression testcase for the html5lib thing you fixed?
  704. # [17:21] <Philip`> annevk: Yes (test_stream.py / test_newlines2)
  705. # [17:22] <Philip`> (The Ruby implementation doesn't seem to be affected, as far as I can tell)
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  708. # [17:29] <gsnedders> PLY doesn't seem able to easily cope with http-parsing. :(
  709. # [17:31] <gsnedders> comment = "(" *( ctext / quoted-pair / comment ) ")" would be really horrible
  710. # [17:32] <gsnedders> It has no sort of repetition outwith inside tokens
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  727. # [18:26] <Philip`> "If the WG wants to recommend UI for browsers, it should do so in a seperate document, so as to not confuse what is required for interoperability." - how does that relate to the recent notification API, whose definition is pretty much all about UI?
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  741. # [19:27] <gsnedders> Oh dear.
  742. # [19:27] * gsnedders concludes there isn't any lexer in any language he knows that can be used for HTTP while keeping quite close to ABNF
  743. # [19:30] <Philip`> Is there not an ABNF lexer implementation?
  744. # [19:30] <gsnedders> No
  745. # [19:30] <gsnedders> But we've been over this before :)
  746. # [19:30] <Philip`> Have we?
  747. # [19:31] * Philip` 's memory is failing
  748. # [19:31] <gsnedders> Yeah, when I was on the train going outh.
  749. # [19:31] <gsnedders> *south
  750. # [19:31] <gsnedders> There's http://simpleparse.sourceforge.net/ which does EBNF
  751. # [19:31] <Philip`> Does http://www.coasttocoastresearch.com/home.php not exist or work or something?
  752. # [19:32] <gsnedders> There was some issue with it
  753. # [19:32] * Philip` goes away
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  755. # [19:33] <gsnedders> Ah yeah.
  756. # [19:33] <gsnedders> I couldn't work out how the hell you used it
  757. # [19:35] * gsnedders works it out!
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  773. # [20:25] <hsivonen> takkaria: http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2008-May/000892.html
  774. # [20:26] <Dashiva> I wonder what he imagines those marks would be used for if there was no implementation
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  780. # [20:46] <Philip`> Dashiva: They are used for semantics, I guess
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  782. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: Could you possibly look at <http://simplepie.org> from a Google IP and say if it looks as if it's been hacked — apparently it does from Y! IPs (done by IPs, and not UA, seemingly)
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  787. # [20:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:tAPdA3FmK6cJ:simplepie.org/
  788. # [20:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: Sure, but that's six days old. I have no idea how old this seeming hack is, and I can't find any trace of it in the sp.o code
  789. # [20:55] <Philip`> "After the neotropical steroid, designer of the clearer prilosec it intoxicated interstate bubbly and recapitulative; satirically mottled." - surely you can't fix the hack and destroy such poetry
  790. # [20:55] <Philip`> Ah
  791. # [20:57] <gsnedders> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:tAPdA3FmK6cJ:simplepie.org/&hl=en&strip=1 — that shows it all :\
  792. # [20:59] * gsnedders can't find the cause at all :\
  793. # [20:59] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@L9cdc.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  794. # [21:02] <Philip`> Checked the web server configuration too?
  795. # [21:03] <Philip`> It looks like most of the links in the page are to other similarly compromised sites
  796. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: I don't have access to that
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  798. # [21:07] * Joins: ian__ (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com)
  799. # [21:09] <takkaria> yay, I got on html4all
  800. # [21:09] <takkaria> I must be part of the cabal now
  801. # [21:13] * gsnedders wonders if he is
  802. # [21:14] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@217.154.74.207)
  803. # [21:14] <takkaria> RB even managed to link to the wrong post of mine
  804. # [21:14] <gsnedders> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000424.html
  805. # [21:14] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@217.154.74.207) (Client Quit)
  806. # [21:14] <smedero> gsnedders: For what it is worth, I just had someone on the Y! internal network look at simplepie.org and they don't see the spammy version. I can email you the frontpage HTML source if you like... but I don't see any of the residuals of one of the wordpress spam hacks.
  807. # [21:15] <takkaria> it makes a good point
  808. # [21:15] <Philip`> shepazu: http://google.com/search?q=cache:Yof6TxEwk3YJ:schepers.cc/ - your site seems a bit spammy
  809. # [21:15] <gsnedders> smedero: I just emailed the guy I've been dealing with, having removed what I thought might be the cause
  810. # [21:16] <Philip`> shepazu: Same problem on http://www.svg-whiz.com/ which looks like yours
  811. # [21:16] <shepazu> Philip`: spammy?
  812. # [21:18] <Philip`> shepazu: "Couldn't you behoove on polygon duet, so you could squib outshoots? Her senegas stand-up as scrape as surpassing eugenias. "Transitionally, I'm bussing out", equidistant diethylpropion hcl 75mg tuberous sclerosis 2." and so on
  813. # [21:19] <Philip`> (plus links to other sites that have the same issue when viewed via the Google cache)
  814. # [21:19] <shepazu> Philip`: I'm not seeing that...
  815. # [21:20] <Philip`> shepazu: Using the Google cache link?
  816. # [21:20] <gsnedders> smedero: Could you get them to look once more?
  817. # [21:21] <smedero> yeah I just nudged him... though now his status says "lunch!". :/ bums.
  818. # [21:22] <shepazu> Philip`: suggestions?
  819. # [21:27] * smedero heads to lunch as well
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  822. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> krijnh: your linkification regexp fails on your own url at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/wai-aria/20080528
  823. # [21:30] <Philip`> shepazu: No idea - ask gsnedders when he's worked out why he has the same problem :-)
  824. # [21:30] <shepazu> thanks for the pointer
  825. # [21:30] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@206-169-112-6.static.twtelecom.net)
  826. # [21:30] * Philip` writes a script to see how big this network is
  827. # [21:31] <Philip`> Oh, that doesn't work since Google blocks my cache-spider
  828. # [21:32] <annevk> is my site affected in some way? my page rank dropped from 7 to 5 for no apparent reason
  829. # [21:32] <Philip`> shepazu: http://www.vectoreal.com/ was in the list before Google started hating me, though
  830. # [21:32] <annevk> "To highlight the insanity of the WhatWG" classic
  831. # [21:33] * shepazu wishes he had more time to figure this crud out
  832. # [21:35] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  833. # [21:35] <Philip`> shepazu: It looks like a pretty widespread problem :-(
  834. # [21:36] <shepazu> Philip`: to be honest, I don't understand what the issue is...
  835. # [21:36] <shepazu> why is archive showing spam when the site itself isn't?
  836. # [21:37] <shepazu> for the record, though, I am totally against squibbing offshoots
  837. # [21:37] <Philip`> shepazu: It probably detects Googlebot (via IP or something) and modifies the response content
  838. # [21:37] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.182)
  839. # [21:37] <annevk> clever
  840. # [21:38] <shepazu> is this something I can or need to do something about?
  841. # [21:38] <Philip`> I think it replaces everything between the first <p> and last </p>
  842. # [21:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: In the sp.o case it doesn't
  843. # [21:38] <annevk> shepazu, you should look in your templates whether there's some hack in there and probably change passwords and all
  844. # [21:39] <shepazu> ah, ok, thanks anne
  845. # [21:39] <Philip`> shepazu: It seems to be that your site/server is hacked in some way, which is not good, but I haven't got a clue how to fix it :-/
  846. # [21:39] <hsivonen> are all those sites running a vulnerable version of WordPress?
  847. # [21:39] <annevk> if they're very clever they also hacked the new password thingie to e-mail them
  848. # [21:39] <annevk> so a clean install might be safest
  849. # [21:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes it does
  850. # [21:40] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72-254-18-209.client.stsn.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  851. # [21:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: OK, maybe it does. But that, I don't think, is what is causing it.
  852. # [21:40] <hsivonen> IIRC, Technorati stopped indexing old WP installs due to something like this
  853. # [21:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: sp.o is running the latest release
  854. # [21:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: "<div class="blogimage"><img src="/images/feature_feed.png" alt="[Feed Icon]" /></div> <p><strong><em>SimplePie is a very ..." --> "<div class="blogimage"><img src="/images/feature_feed.png" alt="[Feed Icon]" /></div> "I suppose laterad", barracked corpus."
  855. # [21:40] <hsivonen> ah. ok
  856. # [21:40] <Philip`> shepazu: Is svg-whiz.com using Wordpress?
  857. # [21:41] <shepazu> I did have my blog hacked recently, but svg-whiz doesn't have a blog, it's just HTML
  858. # [21:41] <Philip`> Aha
  859. # [21:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: WP isn't even touch the home page
  860. # [21:41] <Philip`> Better question: Your site is hosted on Dreamhost, isn't it?
  861. # [21:41] * Philip` thanks bsmedberg for noticing that :-)
  862. # [21:41] <gsnedders> Mine is, and I'm oh-so-tempted to blame them :P
  863. # [21:42] <annevk> oh crap, are all dreamhost sites affected?
  864. # [21:42] <annevk> or was this from some time ago? in which case i'm not
  865. # [21:43] <Philip`> annevk: The Google cache things are from the past few days, so it can't have been that long ago
  866. # [21:44] <gsnedders> It still happens for some people at Y!, I know
  867. # [21:44] <Philip`> shepazu: In that case, I think you don't need to do anything, since it's all Dreamhost's fault
  868. # [21:44] <shepazu> evil dreamhost!
  869. # [21:45] <shepazu> (though I do like them in general)
  870. # [21:45] <Philip`> Possible temporary fix: Remove all <p> tags from your pages ;-)
  871. # [21:45] <shepazu> Philip`: done, I only use SVG semantics on my sites ;P
  872. # [21:48] <gsnedders> shepazu: I don't like them in general :P
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  875. # [21:55] <hsivonen> does JS intern new strings by default?
  876. # [21:55] * hsivonen is surprised by http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/source/browse/releases/1.5/user/super/com/google/gwt/emul/java/lang/String.java?r=2940#488
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  881. # [21:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: As far as I'm aware, there's no way to distinguish the interned vs non-interned cases in JS
  882. # [21:57] <Dashiva> "CHECKSTYLE_OFF: This class has special needs."
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  884. # [21:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: why is the impl. I referenced return new String(this); instead of return this, then?
  885. # [21:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: No idea
  886. # [22:00] <annevk> hsivonen, it seems to invoke intern() and not return new String(this)
  887. # [22:01] <annevk> euh, wait
  888. # [22:01] <annevk> it seems to not do anything
  889. # [22:01] <hsivonen> annevk: /*-{ ... }-*/ is JSNI syntax--not a comment
  890. # [22:01] <Philip`> Is "String" JS's String, or is it a magic GWT class variable?
  891. # [22:02] <annevk> hsivonen, interesting
  892. # [22:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: String in Java scope is java.lang.String and String inside /*-{ ... }-*/ is JavaScript String as far as I can tell
  893. # [22:03] <Philip`> Hmm, too much magic for me to understand :-p
  894. # [22:03] <Philip`> (I was wondering what type 'this' was, but then I decided it's probably safer to not know)
  895. # [22:04] <annevk> Dean Edwards about GWT / JSNI: "This is basically an admission that in the browser environment, JavaScript is king. If you ultimately need to fall back to JavaScript to fix your abstraction layer then your abstraction layer is leaking. JavaScript is king in the browser and GWT is for cowards."
  896. # [22:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: this seems to be the JS String
  897. # [22:04] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  898. # [22:05] <hsivonen> annevk: that's like saying that JNI is an admission that C is king
  899. # [22:05] <hsivonen> which it is
  900. # [22:05] <hsivonen> but HLLs are still useful
  901. # [22:05] <annevk> I thought the last bit was funny
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  910. # [22:29] <gsnedders> smedero: Where is the guy you got to test it?
  911. # [22:30] <smedero> San Fran
  912. # [22:30] <smedero> Flickr offices
  913. # [22:31] <gsnedders> smedero: thx.
  914. # [22:31] * Philip` tries to update the spec splitter to use lxml, since that's a bit faster than minidom
  915. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: Don't forget .tail!
  916. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: That is the most horrible thing ever.
  917. # [22:32] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-d3a81166eda74245)
  918. # [22:33] <Philip`> Oh, that looks yucky
  919. # [22:34] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-170-39.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  920. # [22:37] <Philip`> Hmm, 13s to parse the (postprocessed) spec, when using lxml and psyco - that doesn't seem too awful
  921. # [22:38] <Philip`> (~16.5s without psyco)
  922. # [22:39] <hsivonen> Google should write a Python to JavaScript compiler, too
  923. # [22:40] <Philip`> That sounds fun with e.g. Python's yield statement
  924. # [22:42] <othermaciej> you can rewrite generators to make the state explicit
  925. # [22:42] <othermaciej> or rewrite to continuation passing style
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  927. # [22:43] <Philip`> Can you do that without having to rewrite the caller too?
  928. # [22:46] <gsnedders> peh. get me a decent lexer in Python first :P
  929. # [22:55] <gsnedders> (I need recursiveness and repetition at the parser generator level)
  930. # [22:55] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0206.html
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  932. # [22:58] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0204.html
  933. # [23:00] <annevk> www-tag is funny these days
  934. # [23:02] <Philip`> Argh, lxml's child iteration seems to be skipping over the one element I want to find :-/
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  941. # [23:35] <hsivonen> I had an idea: 1) doc.write <math></math>. 2) Sniff what namespace it was put in. 3) Remove it from the DOM. 4) If it wasn't in the MathML namespace, doc.write a script tag for an HTML5 parser in JS.
  942. # [23:35] <hsivonen> 5) doc.write <plaintext style='display:none'>
  943. # [23:36] <hsivonen> 6) attach the tree builder of the JS parser to the html, head and body elements of the current doc
  944. # [23:36] <hsivonen> 7) take the textContent of the plaintext element
  945. # [23:36] <hsivonen> 8) Remove plaintext
  946. # [23:36] <hsivonen> 9) feed its textContent to the parser
  947. # [23:36] <hsivonen> feasible?
  948. # [23:37] <hsivonen> even subsequent doc.write could work if browsers allow document.write to be replaced with a JavaScript function
  949. # [23:38] <Hixie> sounds pretty sick to me :-)
  950. # [23:39] <Hixie> what license do you waht the live dom viewer in?
  951. # [23:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: MIT license would be the easiest
  952. # [23:41] <Hixie> ok, it's available under the MIT license
  953. # [23:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: thank you
  954. # [23:42] <Hixie> np
  955. # [23:43] <Philip`> hsivonen: I did a (very primitive) parser (for parsing a non-HTML language) like that a while ago, and I think IE had some difficulties (which I didn't bother debugging) but otherwise it seemed to work
  956. # [23:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: cool
  957. # [23:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: IE doesn't have createElementNS anyway
  958. # [23:44] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/sexp.html
  959. # [23:45] <hsivonen> so I ignored IE in my GWT tree builder
  960. # [23:46] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d1f40be98e4a79fe)
  961. # [23:49] <Hixie> i'm kinda starting to like the colon
  962. # [23:49] <Hixie> for aira
  963. # [23:50] <Hixie> it would actually do more harm to xml namespaces than anything else i've tried to do
  964. # [23:53] <annevk> fortunately internal consistency is more important than harming XML namespaces
  965. # [23:54] <Hixie> i dunno, it would in fact harm xhtml too
  966. # [23:55] <annevk> to continue this little debate, harming other languages in order to make HTML look better doesn't seem the best approach
  967. # [23:56] <annevk> (especially if you're meanwhile compromising the HTML syntax somewhat)
  968. # [23:56] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.182)
  969. # [23:56] <Hixie> no no, only to make xml fail
  970. # [23:57] <Hixie> we still have e.g. svg and mathml in text/html
  971. # [23:57] <annevk> i meant that using the colon would not be consistent with HTML
  972. # [23:57] <Hixie> true
  973. # [23:58] <Hixie> well except for xlink
  974. # [23:58] <Hixie> in svg
  975. # [23:59] <annevk> :)
  976. # Session Close: Fri May 30 00:00:00 2008

The end :)