/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 03 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Dashiva> But once you add that end tag, the information is lost. There's no way to remove it later :)
  4. # [00:00] <Philip`> There's plenty of ways to remove it later - that's what html5lib's serialiser does
  5. # [00:01] <Philip`> See e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/multipage/video.html - lots of non-present end tags there, in all the sensible places
  6. # [00:02] <Philip`> (Well, lots of non-present end tags *not* there)
  7. # [00:03] <Dashiva> But that could remove end tags that were present in the original :)
  8. # [00:03] <Philip`> and you'll get the same information loss regardless of whether you use HTML or XML in the toolchain, since it's always going to get parsed into a tree that loses that information and then get serialised
  9. # [00:04] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  10. # [00:04] * Dashiva ponders whether to keep going
  11. # [00:06] * annevk sighs at yet another W3C mailing list
  12. # [00:07] <Philip`> Mailing lists are old fashioned
  13. # [00:08] <jwalden> yeah, use IRC!
  14. # [00:08] <Philip`> The W3C should get with the times, and move all WG business to Twitter
  15. # [00:08] <Dashiva> Mike was talking about setting up a slashcode installation for htmlwg. :)
  16. # [00:08] <jgraham> Philip`: I have been tempted to suggest that to the people who complain that the W3C uses mailing lists
  17. # [00:09] <jgraham> since they never seem to have a good reason for disliking thm
  18. # [00:09] <Philip`> Dashiva: Does that mean we could mod people Troll?
  19. # [00:09] <jgraham> or at least one that I agree with :)
  20. # [00:10] <Dashiva> Philip`: That was the idea, I believe
  21. # [00:10] <Dashiva> Getting the WG to sort out noise collectively, instead of everyone doing it individually
  22. # [00:11] <jgraham> I think modding people troll would be much worse than the current situation
  23. # [00:11] <jgraham> Because people would react badly
  24. # [00:12] <jgraham> and start making a fuss about how they were being oppressed or whatever
  25. # [00:12] <Philip`> Make it so that when you mod someone Troll, they seem themselves as being modded Insightful instead
  26. # [00:12] <Philip`> then they'll never notice the oppression
  27. # [00:12] <Hixie> there are plenty of ways to foster good communities without modding or permanent banning
  28. # [00:12] <Dashiva> jgraham: Could always prevent negative modding, and just set a high positive treshold for viewing instead :)
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  30. # [00:13] <Hixie> the reason the w3c lists have problems is that they aren't maintained like a proper community
  31. # [00:13] <Dashiva> Yeah, if the people in charge are willing to..
  32. # [00:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Only if they only have a single account and anonymous viewing is disallowed
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  44. # [01:20] * Philip` tries implementing a very extremely primitive version of cInputStream, which only returns the string "Hello world" (repeating infinitely) and whose C code calls the class "Noddy" because it's copied from the Python documentation
  45. # [01:20] <Philip`> and it seems to run char() about three times faster than a pure Python version, which makes it seem actually worthwhile
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  47. # [01:24] <Philip`> I believe cInputStream only needs to implement three functions, so it should be pretty straightforward...
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  49. # [01:40] <annevk> only three times faster?
  50. # [01:40] <annevk> still quite a lot I suppose
  51. # [01:41] <annevk> I guess all the other Python bits impact the perf as well then. I would expect a C version to be a 100 times faster or so.
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  53. # [01:41] <Philip`> All the method's doing is returning the next character from a string and increasing the offset counter, so there isn't a huge scope for improvements
  54. # [01:44] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070710#l-239
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  57. # [01:45] <Philip`> (100x seems about right)
  58. # [01:45] <annevk> (I got that number from a collegue who did some comparative testing.)
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  65. # [02:21] <Hixie> most uses of alt=<...> seem to be pretty serious errors (people putting markup in alt="")
  66. # [02:21] <Hixie> so we could probably turn alt=<...> into the magic "not a description but a type of image" mode
  67. # [02:22] <Hixie> (as in, instead of <img important alt=...>, we would have <img alt="<...>">)
  68. # [02:24] <Hixie> or we could use alt={...}, the only use of that seems to be for cases where alt=&...; would have been better
  69. # [02:24] <Hixie> we could even say that in {...} if the ... matches an entity name then it's treated as an entity, otherwise it's treated as an important image...
  70. # [02:27] <Philip`> I'm not sure what you mean about alt=&...;
  71. # [02:27] <Philip`> ALT="{short description of image}" seems the most common value in my data
  72. # [02:28] <Philip`> (<img alt="<...>"> is nasty because everyone will write it as <img alt="&lt;...&gt;"> and it'll be ugly)
  73. # [02:29] <Hixie> yeah i agree with <>
  74. # [02:29] <Hixie> alt={alpha} is the most common {...} value i see
  75. # [02:30] <Philip`> I don't see that at all
  76. # [02:30] <Hixie> which would probably be best as alt=&alpha;
  77. # [02:30] <Hixie> i expect my sample has a lot more scientific documents
  78. # [02:33] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/alt-in-braces.txt
  79. # [02:35] <Philip`> It'd be kind of annoying for people who do <img src="rendered-latex.gif" alt="latex source">, since that'd occasionally be {...}
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  81. # [02:37] <Hixie> i dropped anything that had fewer than 10,000 pages, and my list was: http://damowmow.com/temp/alt-in-braces.txt
  82. # [02:37] <Philip`> Might all the alphas come from one site with lots of pages?
  83. # [02:38] <Hixie> quite possible
  84. # [02:39] <Hixie> (or from one tool)
  85. # [02:41] <Philip`> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/173/12/1441 has alt="{dagger}"
  86. # [02:41] <Philip`> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/87/4/1687 has alt="{chi}"
  87. # [02:41] <Philip`> Those seem to be the only entity-like things I got
  88. # [02:42] * Philip` notices some similarity in their URLs
  89. # [02:42] <Hixie> here are 15 pages that used alt={alpha}, selected at random (so if there's one site drowning the results, you should see a lot of that site):
  90. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/content-nw/full/91/6/928/FIG6?ck=nck
  91. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://www.good-sa.com.tw/97.html
  92. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/collection/other_vasc_bio?notjournal=ahajournals&page=156
  93. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://www.pnas.org/papbysection.shtml
  94. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/69/2/354/F2
  95. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://journals.asm.org/cgi/figsearch?FIRSTINDEX=1540&SEARCHID=1&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&FULLTEXT=embryos&andorexactfulltext=&resourcetype=HWFIG
  96. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/26/1/143
  97. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/185/1/89?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=lacz&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=1400&resourcetype=HWFIG
  98. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/full/174/1/205?ck=nck
  99. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://ajpheart.physiology.org/papbyrecent.shtml
  100. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/cgi/content/abstract/103/4/1286
  101. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/collection/endo_vastype_no?notjournal=ahajournals&page=236&ck=nck
  102. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://ejcts.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/3/352?ck=nck
  103. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://stemcellbiology.blogspot.com/2007_09_01_archive.html
  104. # [02:43] <Hixie> unlinked alt={alpha},http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/cgi/content/abstract/106/7/2302
  105. # [02:43] <Hixie> looks like ahajournals.org might be overrepresented
  106. # [02:43] <Hixie> but that's still a broad selection
  107. # [02:45] <Philip`> All but 2 of those are running the same software
  108. # [02:47] <Philip`> (e.g. breaking the URLs makes all of them (but 2) show pretty much identical 404 pages)
  109. # [02:48] <Hixie> makes sense
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  127. # [04:16] <Philip`> Hmm... cInputStream reduces spec parse time from 16.8s by 20% to 13.5s
  128. # [04:16] <Philip`> which is alright but not fantastic
  129. # [04:19] <Philip`> (That code could probably be optimised to get another 5% or so)
  130. # [04:20] <Philip`> (mainly by caching the charsUntil patterns)
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  156. # [08:50] <gsnedders> I need test cases for the spec-gen
  157. # [08:51] <gsnedders> I don't really want to fix bugs before that
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  163. # [09:28] <gsnedders> hmm. All the broken xrefs seem to be those with <dfn><code>foo</code></dfn>
  164. # [09:33] <virtuelv> shouldn't those really have been <code><dfn>foo</dfn></code>?
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  167. # [09:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: should id="" be checked for uniqueness?
  168. # [09:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: <foo id=""><bar id=""> should that only whine about empty string ids or also about duplicate ids?
  169. # [09:39] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  170. # [09:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Duplicate IDs are now checked. Thanks.
  171. # [09:45] <hsivonen> in other news, Validator.nu now checks meta refresh values
  172. # [09:45] <othermaciej> hsivonen: cool, glad you added it
  173. # [09:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: I rephrased the non-streamability message as you requested
  174. # [09:50] <hsivonen> thanks
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  176. # [10:03] <annevk> http://developers.facebook.com/fbopen/
  177. # [10:04] <jgraham> Has anyone ever checked how AT sees <figure><legend>? Apparently screenreaders have some special behaviour for <legend> that might prevent graceful degradation
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  181. # [10:09] <mpt> hsivonen, do you check uniqueness of, and existence of the elements for, for= values?
  182. # [10:11] <annevk> for= also needs to do type checking
  183. # [10:11] <hsivonen> mpt: I think I do (for HTML5--not HTML4)
  184. # [10:11] <hsivonen> let's see
  185. # [10:11] <jwalden> http://svn.facebook.com/svnroot/platform/fbopen/lib/fbml/fbjs.php is the real meat as far as I can tell there
  186. # [10:11] <annevk> <label for=x>...</label> <input type=hidden id=x> should not be conforming
  187. # [10:12] <annevk> <label for=x>...</label> <div id=x></div> should not be conforming
  188. # [10:12] <annevk> etc.
  189. # [10:12] <hsivonen> mpt: yeah, I check for it
  190. # [10:12] <mpt> cool
  191. # [10:13] <hsivonen> the XHTML 1.0 / HTML 4 support in V.nu really sucks compared to the (X)HTML5 support
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  193. # [10:13] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should just remove XHTML 1.0 / HTML 4 support or keep fixing the breakage
  194. # [10:13] <hsivonen> or leave it in a sucking state
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  196. # [10:14] <annevk> hsivonen, it doesn't catch the type=hidden above
  197. # [10:14] <annevk> hsivonen, it does catch the <div> element
  198. # [10:14] <hsivonen> annevk: good catch.
  199. # [10:15] <hsivonen> annevk: is referring to type=hidden forbidden in the spec? (it probably should be)
  200. # [10:15] <annevk> might not be forbidden just yet
  201. # [10:16] <annevk> in fact, I don't think WF2 makes additional requirements about for
  202. # [10:19] <annevk> a more complicated check might be not allowing referencing a <datalist> child unless the <label> is itself a child of the same <datalist>
  203. # [10:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I found another type=hidden bug while I was at it. thanks
  204. # [10:19] * hsivonen has totally forgotten about datalist
  205. # [10:20] <hsivonen> why would labels refer to datalists?
  206. # [10:20] <annevk> <label for=x> ... </label> <datalist> <select id=x> </select> </datalist>
  207. # [10:20] <hsivonen> eww.
  208. # [10:21] <annevk> the conforming case would be <datalist> <label for=x> </label> <select id=x> </select> </datalist>
  209. # [10:21] <annevk> it seems kind of nasty to check
  210. # [10:22] <hsivonen> consider http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=232 postponed
  211. # [10:22] <hsivonen> (deploying the easier fix now...)
  212. # [10:22] <annevk> yeah, fair enough
  213. # [10:23] <annevk> othermaciej, any progress on your Forms TF stuff?
  214. # [10:23] <annevk> othermaciej, the Forms WG people have stopped radio silence, maybe we should say something back
  215. # [10:24] <othermaciej> annevk: yeah, we should
  216. # [10:24] <othermaciej> annevk: I think I can get something written in the next few days
  217. # [10:24] <othermaciej> though if I don't get it done before next week, then I'll be out of action for a bit due to WWDC
  218. # [10:25] <annevk> better get on it then ;)
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  240. # [11:34] <Dashiva> Just mark it as beta :)
  241. # [11:34] <Dashiva> oops. that was one scrollback too little
  242. # [11:40] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  243. # [11:45] <Hixie> man, some people are whiny
  244. # [11:47] <annevk> maybe that's how things worked out for them when they were little :)
  245. # [11:48] <Lachy> who's whining?
  246. # [11:48] <Dashiva> The editorial comments on xhtml and stuff, maybe
  247. # [11:49] <Lachy> ah, I still have hundreds of mails to catch up on from last weekend
  248. # [11:51] <Dashiva> I spent most of the weekend wondering why there wasn't any activity on public-html. Then I realized it was no longer May.
  249. # [11:51] <hsivonen> I'm quite happy to find less email
  250. # [11:52] <Hixie> nah, direct mail to me
  251. # [11:53] <Hixie> though i am getting tired of having to deal with the w3c
  252. # [11:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: i recommend that you make the validator collapse all the presentational attributes used with the value 0 or equivalent into one error "your document contains obsolete presentational markup"
  253. # [11:54] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cec07192c9b56f46)
  254. # [11:56] <Hixie> this global <a> thing is a bit irritating too
  255. # [11:56] <Hixie> could someone please explain to me what is wrong with onclick="getElementsByTagName('a')[0].click()" ?
  256. # [11:56] <annevk> it's more typing than href
  257. # [11:56] <Dashiva> It requires scripting
  258. # [11:56] <Hixie> waah.
  259. # [11:56] <Philip`> It needs CSS to give the right cursor, and JS to update the status bar
  260. # [11:57] <Philip`> (Er, do browsers still let you update the status bar?)
  261. # [11:57] <Dashiva> Sometimes, some of them
  262. # [11:57] <annevk> Hixie, maybe it's a CSS matter
  263. # [11:57] <annevk> Hixie, in that CSS could provide a way to make the target area of the link span the entire table row the link is in
  264. # [11:58] <Hixie> yeah well
  265. # [11:58] <Hixie> would be nice if the csswg was doing anything
  266. # [11:58] * Dashiva gasps
  267. # [11:58] <annevk> i'm doing something
  268. # [11:58] <annevk> i moved the namespaces module to CR :)
  269. # [11:58] <annevk> next is media queries and cssom view
  270. # [11:59] <Hixie> uh huh
  271. # [11:59] <Hixie> i mean something useful :-P
  272. # [11:59] <Hixie> well, cssom view is useful
  273. # [12:00] <annevk> media queries is something html5 depends on too
  274. # [12:01] <Hixie> media queries is fine already
  275. # [12:01] <Hixie> i mean it has some minor issues
  276. # [12:01] <Hixie> but there are bigger fish to fry
  277. # [12:01] <Hixie> the other part of cssom, for instance
  278. # [12:01] <annevk> hah
  279. # [12:01] <Hixie> and the animation proposals from apple
  280. # [12:02] <Hixie> the animation stuff is probably the number one priority right now
  281. # [12:02] <annevk> dean jackson will be working on that, but the CSS WG is sort of slow setting it all up, not sure what's holding everything back
  282. # [12:02] <Hixie> if i wasn't committed to finishing html5 i'd be doing that i expect
  283. # [12:02] <Hixie> sadly to do a good job requires a rewrite of css from teh ground up
  284. # [12:02] <Hixie> since css2.1 is so not well written
  285. # [12:02] <annevk> (media queries parsing was defined in the same sense html4 parsing was defined so it needed some fixup)
  286. # [12:02] <Hixie> (and i say that as one of hte editors)
  287. # [12:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  288. # [12:03] <annevk> 2012
  289. # [12:04] <Hixie> yeah
  290. # [12:04] <Hixie> well
  291. # [12:04] <Hixie> dom core first
  292. # [12:04] <Hixie> then svg
  293. # [12:05] <Hixie> and maybe http if gsnedders hasn't done it by then
  294. # [12:05] <annevk> dom core is zcorpan
  295. # [12:05] <Hixie> well he has til 2012 i guess :-)
  296. # [12:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: hmm. I was thinking about lobbying to allow the presentational stuff and offering warnings for them as a checkbox
  297. # [12:06] <takkaria> "then svg", heh
  298. # [12:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't expect such lobbying to be fruitful
  299. # [12:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: the only use case seems to be "silence the validator"
  300. # [12:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: and that's easier done in ui
  301. # [12:07] <Hixie> annevk: is chaals around?
  302. # [12:08] <Hixie> oh man what's this geo wg crap
  303. # [12:09] <Hixie> just as we're fixing the waf+webabi mess of two wgs, we're splitting the new wg into two wgs again.
  304. # [12:09] <Philip`> You require e.g. frameborder="0" to make content work correctly in some current UAs (i.e. IE), and it'd be nice if valid HTML5 content could work in current UAs
  305. # [12:09] <Hixie> is the w3c simply unable to learn from its mistakes?
  306. # [12:10] * takkaria wonders why "CSS Marquee" is a high priority spec of the csswg
  307. # [12:10] <annevk> Hixie, chaals is in Brasil last I heard. You could e-mail him I suppose
  308. # [12:11] <Philip`> takkaria: Presumably because it's a very popular feature in China
  309. # [12:11] <annevk> Hixie, I don't get the geo stuff either, all browser vendors + google indicated a preference for the new WA WG as venue
  310. # [12:14] <Philip`> (Oh, I guess my presumption was wrong, since the thingy says it's mainly for mobile browsers)
  311. # [12:15] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  312. # [12:23] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.121.205) ("Konversation terminated!")
  313. # [12:26] <Hixie> wtf does this mean:
  314. # [12:26] <Hixie> svn: REPORT request failed on '/svn/!svn/vcc/default'
  315. # [12:26] <Hixie> svn: Target path does not exist
  316. # [12:26] <Hixie> ...when i try to "svn up" the html5lib directory
  317. # [12:29] <Hixie> ooo, it works if i do it when i'm in the directory at its "real" path instead of a symlinked path
  318. # [12:29] <Hixie> weird
  319. # [12:30] <Philip`> If it's a symlinked subdirectory, I guess it'd be looking for ../../.svn/ and would get unhappy because that doesn't exist
  320. # [12:31] <Hixie> i don't think the real location has one of those either
  321. # [12:31] <Hixie> but oh well
  322. # [12:31] <Hixie> whatever
  323. # [12:31] <Hixie> hey, hsivonen fixed dup id detection
  324. # [12:31] * Hixie fixes the dup ids in the spec
  325. # [12:32] <Hixie> annevk: when are we publishing again?
  326. # [12:32] <annevk> the plan is Thursday
  327. # [12:32] <Hixie> k
  328. # [12:32] <annevk> it largely depends on the W3C getting its act together though, offline-webapps was scheduled for last Friday...
  329. # [12:33] <Hixie> so when do i have to have the boilerplate updated?
  330. # [12:33] <Hixie> is now ok?
  331. # [12:34] <annevk> you mean making it WD-ready? I guess they want it as late as possible. Personally I'd say that now is ok
  332. # [12:34] <Hixie> k
  333. # [12:37] <Hixie> um
  334. # [12:37] <Hixie> looks like the multipage script broke when i updated it
  335. # [12:37] <Hixie> guess i'd better look into that
  336. # [12:37] <Philip`> Broke in which ways?
  337. # [12:38] <Philip`> ("Updated" as in "updated to the latest version from SVN"?)
  338. # [12:40] <Hixie> ImportError: No module named serializer
  339. # [12:40] <Hixie> yes
  340. # [12:41] <Philip`> Sounds like an old version of html5lib
  341. # [12:41] <Hixie> updated that too
  342. # [12:41] <Hixie> svn up
  343. # [12:42] <Philip`> Hmm
  344. # [12:42] <Philip`> Certain? :-)
  345. # [12:42] <Hixie> yes
  346. # [12:42] <Hixie> what is python setup.py install going to do?
  347. # [12:43] <Philip`> Probably install into /usr/python2.5/etc
  348. # [12:44] <Philip`> (Is it using an installed old version of html5lib?)
  349. # [12:44] <Hixie> that's not going to work so well here.
  350. # [12:44] <Hixie> yeah, looks like it might be
  351. # [12:44] <Hixie> oh i see
  352. # [12:44] <Hixie> i symlinked to the wrong place
  353. # [12:45] <Hixie> for some definition of wrong
  354. # [12:45] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  355. # [12:48] * Philip` goes away for half an hour
  356. # [12:48] <Philip`> Hixie: If it fails when calling some xpath method, that's because it needs lxml 2.0
  357. # [12:49] <Philip`> Otherwise it ought to work, hopefully :-)
  358. # [12:49] <Hixie> `now i get:
  359. # [12:49] <Hixie> ImportError: No module named lxml
  360. # [12:49] <annevk> dependencies suck
  361. # [12:49] <Hixie> yes.
  362. # [12:49] <Philip`> Ah, in that case you also need lxml 2.0
  363. # [12:49] <Hixie> html5lib used to be much easier to use :-)
  364. # [12:50] <Hixie> now i have to install it and add libraries...
  365. # [12:50] <Philip`> That's not html5lib's fault :-)
  366. # [12:50] <Philip`> It's just because I chose to use the lxml treebuilder (because that was nicer and faster than the DOM-ish one)
  367. # [12:50] <Philip`> It should be just "easy_install lxml" except lack of root probably makes that harder
  368. # [12:50] <Hixie> i have no idea how to install that dependency
  369. # [12:51] <Hixie> i don't have anything resembling a work environment here
  370. # [12:51] <Hixie> i have a directory.
  371. # [12:51] <Hixie> i'm lucky to have python.
  372. # [12:52] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acaq14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  373. # [12:52] <Philip`> Do you have easy_install?
  374. # [12:52] <Hixie> no
  375. # [12:52] <hsivonen> IIRC, getting easy_install to do the right thing under Debian doesn't exactly qualify as 'easy'
  376. # [12:53] <Hixie> i think this is not debian
  377. # [12:53] <Hixie> i think it's fedora core 5 but i'm not 100% sure
  378. # [12:53] <Philip`> Hmm, that makes it much more of a pain...
  379. # [12:54] <annevk> no apt-get ?
  380. # [12:55] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-44-118.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  381. # [12:55] <Hixie> i don't have root
  382. # [12:55] <Philip`> Fedora 7 only has lxml 1.3 packages
  383. # [12:55] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  384. # [12:55] <Hixie> so even if it was debian, apt-get wouldn't help
  385. # [12:55] <Philip`> (though you can --enablerepo=development to get 2.0 on there)
  386. # [12:55] <Hixie> also, i don't have libxml2 or libxslt
  387. # [12:55] <Hixie> so i can't compile lxml2
  388. # [12:55] <Philip`> or python-dev?
  389. # [12:55] <Hixie> python-dev?
  390. # [12:55] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  391. # [12:56] <Philip`> like the CPython header files and stuff
  392. # [12:56] <Hixie> $ python setup.py build
  393. # [12:56] <Hixie> Building lxml version 2.1.beta3-55506.
  394. # [12:56] <Hixie> NOTE: Trying to build without Cython, pre-generated 'src/lxml/lxml.etree.c' needs to be available.
  395. # [12:56] <Hixie> ERROR: /bin/sh: xslt-config: command not found
  396. # [12:56] <Hixie> ** make sure the development packages of libxml2 and libxslt are installed **
  397. # [12:56] <Hixie> ...
  398. # [12:56] <Hixie> gcc: src/lxml/lxml.etree.c: No such file or directory
  399. # [12:56] <Hixie> gcc: no input files
  400. # [12:56] <Hixie> error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1
  401. # [12:56] <annevk> maybe use the Web service from Philip` instead?
  402. # [12:56] <Hixie> that may be the better idea at this point
  403. # [12:57] <Philip`> Maybe me switching to lxml was a bad idea
  404. # [12:57] <Hixie> what's the uri for your cgi app?
  405. # [12:57] <Philip`> But it's nice when it works :-)
  406. # [12:57] <annevk> (the scary thing about installing is that it always leaves a lot of cruft behind; at least, I'm afraid of that)
  407. # [12:57] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20080601#l-16
  408. # [12:58] <Hixie> can you make it ping http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/do-pubrules-update when it's done? i don't trust my end to keep a connection open for two minutes, long running jobs have a tendency to get killed when load gets high.
  409. # [12:58] * Philip` is too used to being able to install dependencies trivially
  410. # [12:59] <Philip`> Hixie: Like sending a GET request?
  411. # [12:59] <Hixie> yeah
  412. # [12:59] * Philip` wonders what'll happen now that Googlebot knows that URL and will keep pinging it :-)
  413. # [12:59] <Hixie> i guess the mutlipage url will get refreshed more oten!
  414. # [12:59] <Hixie> often
  415. # [13:00] <annevk> prolly the referer is checked
  416. # [13:00] <annevk> or maybe not :)
  417. # [13:00] <Philip`> I could do that in, uh, the next hour or so
  418. # [13:00] <Hixie> cool
  419. # [13:00] <Hixie> annevk: it's a two line shell script that just downloads the file and unzips it
  420. # [13:00] <Hixie> i wonder how i make wget do a post
  421. # [13:00] <Philip`> (Is it fine if my script still attempts to keep the connection open for a couple of minutes?)
  422. # [13:00] <Hixie> aha, --post-data
  423. # [13:00] <Hixie> Philip`: sure
  424. # [13:00] <Philip`> Hixie: Ah, good, since I'm not sure how to close it
  425. # [13:01] <Hixie> you just run another script in the background to do the real work
  426. # [13:01] <Hixie> :-)
  427. # [13:01] <Philip`> I've not quite worked out how to do that so the caller returns and the background process doesn't die
  428. # [13:02] <Philip`> But anyway I need to go now :-)
  429. # [13:02] <Hixie> with apache i've never had a problem just doing "foo.sh&" from within a bash shell script cgi
  430. # [13:03] <Hixie> aw man, Philip` used bz2
  431. # [13:03] <Hixie> tar doesn't support bz2 last i checked
  432. # [13:03] <Hixie> ooh, -j
  433. # [13:04] <hsivonen> gnutar support everything
  434. # [13:04] <hsivonen> +s
  435. # [13:04] <hsivonen> whew. I've now flushed zcorpan's IRC bug reports to bugzilla
  436. # [13:08] <Hixie> oh right, Philip`'s script doesn't add all the magic symlinks i had in my version
  437. # [13:11] <Hixie> ok
  438. # [13:11] <Hixie> all fixed
  439. # [13:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i guess i could report to bugzilla directly in the future :)
  440. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that would be nice
  441. # [13:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks for the reports, btw. Fixing now.
  442. # [13:14] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  443. # [13:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: np
  444. # [13:17] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  445. # [13:23] <Hixie> i guess i should sleep
  446. # [13:24] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  447. # [13:32] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cec07192c9b56f46)
  448. # [13:34] <Hixie> annevk: any chance i can throw scrollIntoView() into an actively maintained spec you're working on?
  449. # [13:35] <annevk> i've looked into adding it to CSSOM View
  450. # [13:35] <annevk> as that'd make the most sense
  451. # [13:35] <Hixie> yeah
  452. # [13:35] <Hixie> i have an XXX in the html5 spec about doing that
  453. # [13:35] <annevk> i wonder if there are many outstanding issues
  454. # [13:35] <Hixie> i'm going through them now
  455. # [13:35] <annevk> cause cssom view is more or less done apart from the insane thing that is offset*
  456. # [13:36] <Hixie> only cos you took out all the other hard bits and put them into a separate spec :-P
  457. # [13:36] <annevk> i'm trying to round up xhr1 stuff now, not sure when cross-site stuff is going to be done but I suppose I should start pushing CSSOM View again as the CSSWG resolved to publish something and it hasn't happened yet
  458. # [13:36] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  459. # [13:37] <Hixie> the most important part -- how css gets bootstrapped from html5 -- is still undefined, right? or rather, is in the unmaintained other cssom spec?
  460. # [13:37] <annevk> Hixie, oh, alternate style sheets etc., yeah
  461. # [13:37] <Hixie> (offset* is pretty important too)
  462. # [13:38] <Hixie> (and desperately needs a thorough spec)
  463. # [13:38] <annevk> i agree and offset* is specced
  464. # [13:38] <annevk> the problem is deciding which of the various options we have is the best
  465. # [13:39] <Hixie> yeah, i know the feeling
  466. # [13:39] <annevk> because offset* is completely broken :)
  467. # [13:39] <Hixie> you have to study existing content, read bugs in the various UAs' bug databases, etc
  468. # [13:39] <Hixie> it's a lot of work :-(
  469. # [13:40] <annevk> yeah, i did all the research, but there's no clear answer
  470. # [13:40] <Hixie> the html parser section was the worst so far for me
  471. # [13:40] <Hixie> talk about no clear answer :-)
  472. # [13:40] <annevk> hehe
  473. # [13:40] <annevk> i like the html parser
  474. # [13:40] <annevk> it's one of the better parts of html5 despite not being one of the original goals
  475. # [13:40] <Hixie> heh
  476. # [13:41] <Hixie> it's so complicated it isn't susceptible to bike shed colour discussions
  477. # [13:41] <Hixie> which helps
  478. # [13:43] <virtuelv> Hixie: don't misunderestimate the tendency people have to look at any building as if it was a bikeshed
  479. # [13:43] <hsivonen> I like how my one-sentence spec comments on the parsing section get answered with "Done" without a bikeshed thread in between
  480. # [13:44] <Hixie> virtuelv: there have been virtually no bikesheds on the parser section, so i think my statement is true
  481. # [13:44] * Joins: deane (n=dean@121-72-183-63.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  482. # [13:50] * hsivonen thinks it's sad that Adobe keeps breaking their greatest hit (PDF) by mixing Flash with it
  483. # [13:51] <Hixie> lol i can't validate the spec using validator.w3.org, it crashes
  484. # [13:52] <hsivonen> the spec is a good stress test case
  485. # [13:55] <Hixie> ok annevk, i checked in a pubrules-compliant version
  486. # [13:55] <Philip`> Hixie: Might it be nice/possible for the 404 page to include link-fixup.js so that e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/outdated.html#introduction sends you to the right place?
  487. # [13:56] <Hixie> i'm about to go to bed
  488. # [13:56] <Hixie> mail me the details
  489. # [13:57] * Philip` wonders why http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/stdout.txt is text/html
  490. # [13:57] <Philip`> Hixie: Okay, will do
  491. # [13:57] <Hixie> i have a default text/html mime type iirc
  492. # [13:57] <Hixie> feel free to include a .htaccess file in the bz2 file
  493. # [13:58] <annevk> and stuff that steals cookies :D
  494. # [13:59] <Hixie> he could do far worse than that
  495. # [13:59] <Hixie> he could put arbitrary binary code in there
  496. # [13:59] <Philip`> Hmm, I could use that to make everyone who views the multipage spec unknowingly vote for my favourite issues in http://www.whatwg.org/issues/
  497. # [13:59] <Hixie> and then run it
  498. # [14:00] <Hixie> and steal my e-mail
  499. # [14:00] <Philip`> Stop giving me ideas :-(
  500. # [14:00] <Hixie> and anything on any of my sites
  501. # [14:00] <Hixie> you could just log into the database and set the vots to whatever you wnat :-)
  502. # [14:00] <zcorpan> doesn't <video> work on safari for windows?
  503. # [14:00] <roc> it works
  504. # [14:00] <Hixie> Philip`: of course if you did any of these things and got caught, it would probably not do your career much good :-)
  505. # [14:01] <roc> however, it only integrates with Quicktime
  506. # [14:01] <Philip`> Hixie: I'll have to make sure I don't get caught, then
  507. # [14:01] <Hixie> :-)
  508. # [14:01] * Hixie sets up his script to automatically send him diffs of every update
  509. # [14:06] <jwalden> the XSS might make someone cross
  510. # [14:06] <jwalden> the ensuing spectacle would be quite a site
  511. # [14:06] * jwalden decides not to try for the second S
  512. # [14:07] <Hixie> there
  513. # [14:07] <Hixie> philip can't run arbitrary code anymore
  514. # [14:07] <Hixie> i force the permissions to non-executable
  515. # [14:08] <annevk> so much for trust :p
  516. # [14:08] <Hixie> it's not really about trusting him
  517. # [14:09] <Hixie> so much as reducing the number of hosts that can be used as attack vectors into my site
  518. # [14:09] * Philip` doesn't trust himself
  519. # [14:12] * annevk wanted to thank jgraham for http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/06/02/the-missing-link/?#comment-382177 but he's not around
  520. # [14:15] <Hixie> nn
  521. # [14:23] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d2e6381780b54f41)
  522. # [14:34] <hsivonen> what's the <> tag called in SGML?
  523. # [14:35] <hasather> hsivonen: empty start-tag
  524. # [14:36] <hsivonen> hasather: thanks
  525. # [14:36] <annevk> but why?
  526. # [14:36] <annevk> nobody wants to be bothered with SGML phrases :o
  527. # [14:37] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://www.is-thought.co.uk/book/sgml-9.htm#SHORTTAG is useful if you ever need to lookup SGML stuff
  528. # [14:42] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm trying to improve error messages
  529. # [14:42] <hsivonen> annevk: so I thought I should say on <> and </> that SGML features foo and bar aren't permitted in HTML
  530. # [14:43] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'm not sure that's an improvement over saying that < must be written as &lt; in html
  531. # [14:43] <annevk> I guess I'm glad I asked since I agree with zcorpan
  532. # [14:44] <hsivonen> ok
  533. # [14:44] <annevk> pretending that SGML still exists or that HTML is somehow related to it doesn't seem useful
  534. # [14:44] <hsivonen> ok
  535. # [14:44] <hsivonen> would you agree, though, that <? should say XML processing instructions aren't permitted?
  536. # [14:46] <annevk> yeah, that seems ok
  537. # [14:46] <annevk> XML exists and people are mixing it and HTML all the time (or at least pretending to do that)
  538. # [14:46] <zcorpan> indeed
  539. # [14:47] <zcorpan> <?xml ... ?> is common in text/html
  540. # [14:58] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d2e6381780b54f41)
  541. # [15:00] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
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  544. # [15:04] <hsivonen> I changed various parser error messages
  545. # [15:04] <hsivonen> please let me know if it was an improvement
  546. # [15:19] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@acaq14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  547. # [15:23] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-3c7f4eed2f92d22e)
  548. # [15:28] <gsnedders> virtuelv: Hixie wrote them, not me! :P
  549. # [15:29] <virtuelv> gsnedders: ?
  550. # [15:29] <gsnedders> virtuelv: <dfn><code>h1</code></dfn>
  551. # [15:29] <virtuelv> ah
  552. # [15:29] <gsnedders> virtuelv: The point is it is the defining instance of that code block
  553. # [15:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is there an easy way to check what the new messages are? :)
  554. # [15:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'll run a diff
  555. # [15:36] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acaq14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  556. # [15:36] <annevk> gsnedders, in theory specific handling for <hx>... <dfn> ... <dfn> ... </hx> would be nice
  557. # [15:36] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  558. # [15:37] <gsnedders> annevk: Specific in what way?
  559. # [15:37] <annevk> it would be nice if the <dfn> didn't get an id= in that case and references to the <dfn> would instead point to the <hx>
  560. # [15:40] <gsnedders> Ah. That would be nice.
  561. # [15:41] * gsnedders currently just wants it to work right now :P
  562. # [15:42] <gsnedders> OK, I've just got running the spec-gen down from 137.302s to 16.986s on HTML 5 :P
  563. # [15:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://pastebin.ca/1037720
  564. # [15:45] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-71-233-78-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  565. # [15:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think "unescaped logical not" goes over the heads of most authors since most authors don't know programming
  566. # [15:49] <Philip`> It seems pretty uncommon for "<>" to mean "logical not", since people don't write web pages in BASIC
  567. # [15:49] <hsivonen> should I mention only mistyped start tag?
  568. # [15:49] <Philip`> Oh, that's not logical not anyway, it's not-equal
  569. # [15:49] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-170-172.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  570. # [15:50] <hsivonen> umm right
  571. # [15:50] <hsivonen> I'll assume <> and </> are typoed tags
  572. # [15:51] <annevk> Probable cause: typo
  573. # [15:51] <Philip`> Almost all the <> I can see are in JS regexps
  574. # [15:51] <annevk> <> is acceptable within <script>, no?
  575. # [15:51] <Philip`> except
  576. # [15:51] <Philip`> http://geocities.com/scerez/: <td rowspan="7"><>
  577. # [15:51] <Philip`> http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/swinggaits/: <div align=left><font face='Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow' size=3 color='#99cc33'><i>&nbsp;&nbsp; </i></font><font face='Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow' size=3 color='#99cc33'><b>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><</b></font><font face='Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow' size=3 color='#99cc33'><i> </i></font></div>
  578. # [15:52] <Philip`> http://www.hakurai.ne.jp/: <param name="yradius" value="0"><>
  579. # [15:52] <Philip`> http://www.angelfire.com/in/HorseAndCarriageSo/: <><br>
  580. # [15:52] <Philip`> and so on
  581. # [15:52] <annevk> fun
  582. # [15:53] <Philip`> http://www.rad.de/: Auf rad.de bestimmt du selbst, was rad.de-Mitglieder lesen. Ob´s um Fahrräder, Touren, Tipps oder News geht <<>> die rad.de-Route ist alles andere als eine Einbahnstraße.</center>
  583. # [15:53] <annevk> hsivonen, maybe it should say "Use &lt;> instead."
  584. # [15:53] <Philip`> I'm not sure how many are typos and how many are decorative
  585. # [15:53] <hsivonen> annevk: that's not good advice if the probable cause is a tag typo
  586. # [15:54] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/file/tip/specGen/utils.py#l65— that gives "" for <dfn><code>foo</code></dfn>
  587. # [15:55] <annevk> hsivonen, true
  588. # [15:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Either you typoed a tag or you should replace < with &lt;"
  589. # [15:55] <zcorpan> (or something)
  590. # [15:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: Do you mean repr(Element.getroottree()) gives ""?
  591. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: Line 65
  592. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Something is wrong with it, obviously
  593. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Wait, I haven't reloaded that in ages
  594. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Line 70
  595. # [15:57] <gsnedders> My XPath is broken :(
  596. # [15:57] <hsivonen> I wonder how I should deal with bugs blocking on spec issues
  597. # [15:57] <hsivonen> LATER seems like a bugzilla anti-pattern
  598. # [15:58] <annevk> gsnedders, also, the <hx> in question should probably use the first <dfn> child for creating the id in question (unless id is already set)
  599. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Oh duh. descendant::text() is what I want
  600. # [15:58] <annevk> gsnedders, so <h4>The <dfn><code>em</code></dfn> element</h4> ends up as <h4 id=em>
  601. # [15:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the text you have for </> would work for <> too, i think (with s/end/start/)
  602. # [15:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: child::text() returns text childs, and <dfn> has no text childs
  603. # [15:58] <gsnedders> annevk: That's hard to do without forward scanning, which I don't really want to do
  604. # [15:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, I just realised looking at the spec
  605. # [15:59] <Philip`> That's why it's called "child::text" :-)
  606. # [15:59] <annevk> gsnedders, else it would be something like <h4 id=the-em> right? what's the big difference?
  607. # [15:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: Just the difference between direct and indirect children :)
  608. # [16:00] <gsnedders> annevk: I'd rather it just used the textContent of the hx
  609. # [16:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: etree.tostring(Elements, method='text') works (at least in lxml 2.0) at finding the concatenated descendant text
  610. # [16:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. tweaking again
  611. # [16:00] <Philip`> (or at least I hope it does, since that's what I'm using)
  612. # [16:02] <gsnedders> http://stuff.gsnedders.com/html5.html — find broken xrefs that I've introduced (again)!
  613. # [16:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: a likely cause of " in attribute name is that there's a " missing somewhere else, i think
  614. # [16:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: which state?
  615. # [16:03] <hsivonen> I mean: at start? surely not inside?
  616. # [16:04] <zcorpan> @@ -2187,7 +2187,7 @@
  617. # [16:04] <zcorpan> * (') Parse error.
  618. # [16:04] <zcorpan> */
  619. # [16:04] <zcorpan> err("Quote \u201C" + c
  620. # [16:04] <zcorpan> - + "\u201D in attribute name.");
  621. # [16:04] <zcorpan> + + "\u201D in attribute name. Probable cause: \u201C=\u201D missing immediately before.");
  622. # [16:05] <zcorpan> the diff doesn't give much context :(
  623. # [16:05] <zcorpan> <p title=my title">
  624. # [16:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: If an attribute name starts with ", isn't the likely cause something like: name "value"?
  625. # [16:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's a different state
  626. # [16:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ah
  627. # [16:06] <hsivonen> I don't remember what I wrote
  628. # [16:07] <hsivonen> oops. you are right.
  629. # [16:07] <hsivonen> my message is bogus
  630. # [16:07] <hsivonen> thanks
  631. # [16:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: hmm. <!DOCTYPE html><title></title><embed src ">
  632. # [16:08] <zcorpan> gives no errors
  633. # [16:10] <zcorpan> or had i reported that before?
  634. # [16:10] <annevk> i think you did
  635. # [16:10] <zcorpan> yeah. sorry for the noise :)
  636. # [16:10] <annevk> it seems that " is not catched on the tokenizing level which is why it is not catched
  637. # [16:10] <annevk> (you can figure that out by looking at <p title ">
  638. # [16:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: It's a spec bug
  639. # [16:11] <annevk> )
  640. # [16:13] * hsivonen has still 50 bytes to spare in the tokenizer loop
  641. # [16:13] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-b493ee6662ff902f)
  642. # [16:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: What should the target time to run the spec-gen on HTML 5 be?
  643. # [16:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: Zero seconds
  644. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: html5lib takes 12s to parse it alone! :P
  645. # [16:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: (thanks for all the work you've done on perf. recently, though)
  646. # [16:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's not necessarily a reachable target, but it's the best one to aim at :-)
  647. # [16:19] <takkaria> I was reading about how python implements dictionaries internally last night, quite interesting from a performance point of view
  648. # [16:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: isn't it better to write out the full doctype in the missing SI warnings?
  649. # [16:21] <gsnedders> I so much nicer to work on something when you can actually see the results of what you've done :)
  650. # [16:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: as in "The doctype did not contain the system identifier prescribed by the HTML 4.01 specification. Expected \u201C<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC \"-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN\" \"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd\">\u201D."
  651. # [16:23] * Joins: shepazutoo (n=schepers@adsl-074-167-235-242.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  652. # [16:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I suppose. thanks
  653. # [16:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: otherwise it looks good i think
  654. # [16:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  655. # [16:25] <annevk> gsnedders, less than a second would be nice
  656. # [16:25] <gsnedders> annevk: Give me chtml5lib first :)
  657. # [16:26] <gsnedders> I think 1.5s is realistically just about as quick as we'll get with current computers with chtml5lib to be fair
  658. # [16:29] <Philip`> chtml5lib needs to be multithreaded!
  659. # [16:30] <takkaria> I'm not sure there's much to parallelise
  660. # [16:30] <annevk> yeah, so it can do tokenizing before having an input stream and building a tree while downloading a resource
  661. # [16:30] * Joins: shepazutoo_ (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
  662. # [16:30] <takkaria> I think my sense of humour was lacking there. oops
  663. # [16:31] <hsivonen> takkaria: if tokens were objects (as opposed to callbacks), the tokenizer and the tree builder could run on different threads
  664. # [16:31] <hsivonen> probably not useful
  665. # [16:32] <takkaria> (btw, hubbub (incomplete C html parser) takes 1.7s just to tokenise the current spec)
  666. # [16:32] <hsivonen> with Java and the V.nu parser it would be relatively easy to try two-threaded performance
  667. # [16:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixed
  668. # [16:33] <jmb> takkaria: most of that's probably in the input stream handling.
  669. # [16:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: fixed image report on fatal error
  670. # [16:34] <gsnedders> takkaria: Well, WebKit is quicker than that :P
  671. # [16:35] * Philip` gets another ~5% from improving cInputStream
  672. # [16:35] * gsnedders fears the commit when this lands
  673. # [16:35] <Philip`> so it now parses the spec in about 12.6s, vs 16.5s for pure Python
  674. # [16:36] <jmb> s/probably//
  675. # [16:36] <takkaria> heh
  676. # [16:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: from what data source? (disk, RAM?)
  677. # [16:37] <Philip`> takkaria: Via http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070710#l-239 I got 0.35s for tokenising in C++
  678. # [16:37] <Philip`> (on a slightly old version of the spec)
  679. # [16:37] <Philip`> (on a P4 3.0GHz, I think)
  680. # [16:37] * annevk wonders how long Validator.nu takes
  681. # [16:38] <Philip`> annevk: That's the "Java" one in those results
  682. # [16:38] * hsivonen prepares to run a benchmark
  683. # [16:38] <Philip`> hsivonen: Disk (but cached)
  684. # [16:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: crossing to the native file system seems expensive in Java
  685. # [16:39] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  686. # [16:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's relatively inexpensive in Python, just because the rest of the parser is a hundred times more expensive :-)
  687. # [16:39] * shepazutoo_ is now known as shepazu
  688. # [16:39] <annevk> Philip`, how about parsing?
  689. # [16:40] <annevk> for validating I get "Total execution time 23573 milliseconds."
  690. # [16:40] <Philip`> annevk: I've never had a working C++ parser so I've never had anything interesting to compare
  691. # [16:41] <Philip`> cInputStream seems kind of worthwhile for performance - does anyone know what would be the nicest way to try including it in html5lib?
  692. # [16:42] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  693. # [16:42] <Philip`> (It just defines a class with char() and charsUntil(), and you stick it together with the normal HTMLInputStream (currently via inheritance) and then it goes faster)
  694. # [16:42] <Philip`> (or it crashes)
  695. # [16:43] <gsnedders> annevk: http://bugs.gsnedders.com/issues/show/5 — happy? :)
  696. # [16:45] <annevk> ah, feature request 5, now you have to fix it :p
  697. # [16:45] <annevk> (or maybe it's that it will never be finished :D )
  698. # [16:46] <hsivonen> Parsing the spec from an in-memory UTF-16 buffer (but using all the Reader cruft in between) takes 0.12 seconds on average in the true streaming mode with a content handler that doesn't do anything
  699. # [16:46] <gsnedders> annevk: Yeah, but it's only down for 1.1 :P
  700. # [16:46] <gsnedders> annevk: Though there are no open issues on 1.0 :D
  701. # [16:47] <gsnedders> (1.0 is mainly just finish it)
  702. # [16:48] <hsivonen> I'm too lazy to test how much faster the parser would be without a Reader in there
  703. # [16:49] <Philip`> Almost exactly two orders of magnitude faster than Python
  704. # [16:49] * Quits: shepazutoo (n=schepers@adsl-074-167-235-242.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  705. # [16:49] <hsivonen> oh and this was HotSpot from Java 5 32 bit client on 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo
  706. # [16:49] <takkaria> we should record benchmarks somewhere, probably
  707. # [16:50] * Philip` could only get another 10% if he made char and charsUntil take zero time
  708. # [16:52] * gsnedders wonders how to implement the TOC algorithm
  709. # [16:55] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  710. # [16:55] * gsnedders adds something for 1.0
  711. # [16:57] <hsivonen> in case anyone feels like running better benchmarks, please use V.nu parser trunk instead of release
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  722. # [18:05] <Philip`> Manual reference counting in C is not fun
  723. # [18:07] <annevk> fun vs fast
  724. # [18:07] <Philip`> It's not particularly fast either :-)
  725. # [18:07] <annevk> :p
  726. # [18:08] <Philip`> The fastest approach is to just leak memory
  727. # [18:08] <Philip`> and the second fastest approach is to just leak memory and then scramble around to detect all the leaks once you're about to run out
  728. # [18:08] <Philip`> *run out of memory
  729. # [18:09] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  730. # [18:11] <hsivonen> the autoreleasepool solution is pretty cool (out of solutions that don't involve a proper garbage collector)
  731. # [18:11] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@c-71-58-57-150.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  732. # [18:11] <annevk> Philip`, OOM-safe should probably be a requirement
  733. # [18:12] <hsivonen> (the Mozilla 2 OOM approach looks interesting)
  734. # [18:13] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  735. # [18:14] <Philip`> if (!(m = malloc(size))) alert("Buy more RAM")
  736. # [18:21] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  737. # [18:24] * Joins: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  738. # [18:35] * hsivonen tries to understand what the W3C AB does
  739. # [18:36] <hsivonen> are the examples of past cases where AB has given the W3C an opinion on something?
  740. # [18:37] <annevk> see November/December 2007 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/process-issues/#latest
  741. # [18:37] <annevk> (minus #latest)
  742. # [18:38] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
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  750. # [19:48] * Philip` gives up trying to optimise cInputStream, since there's not a lot left to gain :-(
  751. # [19:48] <zcorpan_> why is pixelratio='' only on <source>, not on <video>?
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  772. # [21:43] <hsivonen> whoa! according to Simon Willison, libfbml depends on Firefox
  773. # [21:45] <hsivonen> hmm. http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/FBML_DTD
  774. # [21:45] <hsivonen> XSD is the new DTD
  775. # [22:06] * Quits: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g227066126.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0/2008051206]")
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  777. # [22:08] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: is utf-8 assumed before the encoding decl is found?
  778. # [22:09] * zcorpan_ looks at http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessify.com%2F&showsource=yes
  779. # [22:14] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-69c1b61f4b8dccd9)
  780. # [22:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: windows-1252 is assumed
  781. # [22:15] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  782. # [22:15] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what's up with "Stray end tag noscript." in http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessify.com%2F&charset=UTF-8&showsource=yes ?
  783. # [22:16] <hsivonen> interesting.
  784. # [22:16] <hsivonen> I'll have to investigate in the morning
  785. # [22:16] <hsivonen> thanks
  786. # [22:16] * hsivonen notes the alt on the stat single-pixel image on an accessibility site...
  787. # [22:17] <hsivonen> nn
  788. # [22:17] <zcorpan_> nn
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  793. # [22:30] <Dashiva> annevk, zcorpan_: around?
  794. # [22:31] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: yep
  795. # [22:32] <Dashiva> I just noticed <a href> elements tostring as their href, has that always been the case?
  796. # [22:32] <zcorpan_> yeah
  797. # [22:33] <zcorpan_> dunno if it's specced anywhere
  798. # [22:33] <Dashiva> Strange how I've never noticed before
  799. # [22:33] <Dashiva> That was my second question :)
  800. # [22:33] <zcorpan_> i think html5 is waiting for webidl to get fancy features to support this sort of thing
  801. # [22:34] <Hixie> html5 does spec it
  802. # [22:34] <zcorpan_> oh
  803. # [22:34] <Hixie> btw zcorpan_ regarding your earlier question, it's on <source> only to discourage its use.
  804. # [22:34] <zcorpan_> [Stringifies=href] interface HTMLAnchorElement
  805. # [22:34] <zcorpan_> Hixie: ok
  806. # [22:35] <gsnedders> 0.924s for the spec-gen (admittedly, with only xref) with XML source/output of the HTML 5 spec (which is the sort of speed we should be able to get with a C impl. of html5lib)
  807. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: What sort of speed do you want the spec-gen to run in, at the very slowest?
  808. # [22:36] * zcorpan_ 'd say 0.924s
  809. # [22:36] <Hixie> i WANT it to
  810. # [22:36] <Hixie> silly cat
  811. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: You see my latest tweet?
  812. # [22:36] <Hixie> i WANT it to run in 500ms or so
  813. # [22:37] <gsnedders> "I HAS SPECIFICASHUN GENERATOR! "
  814. # [22:37] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  815. # [22:37] <Hixie> but i'll put up with whatever i can get :-)
  816. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: How quick is the W3C spec-gen?
  817. # [22:37] * Hixie checks
  818. # [22:38] <Hixie> (and no, i don't follow twitter)
  819. # [22:38] <gsnedders> (I expected that)
  820. # [22:38] <gsnedders> (Which is why I quoted it here)
  821. # [22:39] <Hixie> timing...
  822. # [22:39] <Hixie> 14 seconds
  823. # [22:39] <Hixie> an eternity
  824. # [22:40] <Hixie> well, 28 seconds since i do it twice, but i run them in parallel at this point
  825. # [22:40] <Philip`> My partly-optimised-in-C html5lib takes, uh, 12.3 seconds to parse the spec :-(
  826. # [22:40] <gsnedders> OK, if someone writes a fully-optimised-in-C html5lib, then we can be under 3s, I expect, without much more optimisation of the spec-gen itself
  827. # [22:42] <Philip`> I kind of like the approach of rewriting small pieces of the Python functionality into a C extension, but keeping all the complex rarely-called fast-enough bits in Python
  828. # [22:42] <Philip`> but I'm not sure how far that approach could be used in html5lib
  829. # [22:42] * gsnedders wonders whether to switch to doing AH Computing from AH English just so he can use the AH Computing project to learn C and write an html5lib parser :P
  830. # [22:44] <Philip`> (Probably the next step would be to replace the entire tokeniser class with a pure C implementation, but the treebuilders are still kind of slow too)
  831. # [22:46] <gsnedders> 4.4s to serialize, 11.3s to parse here
  832. # [22:46] <gsnedders> leaving the other 0.8s for me to waste myself :)
  833. # [22:47] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  835. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Philip`: "Cue ranges" is missing a </dl> because my Feb 13th source is missing one. Damned Hixie!
  836. # [22:51] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86)
  837. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Most of the bugs are down to Hixie making my input buggy :(
  838. # [22:53] <Philip`> Most of the bugs are down to you not using an up-to-date copy of the spec :-p
  839. # [22:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: If someone hadn't broken it in the first place… :P
  840. # [22:54] <Hixie> in february i had something like 3000 known bugs with the spec
  841. # [22:54] <Hixie> i still have over 2000 now!
  842. # [22:54] <gsnedders> whatwg.org is down, seemingly :(
  843. # [22:54] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  844. # [22:54] <Hixie> yeah
  845. # [22:54] <Hixie> not sre why
  846. # [22:54] * Philip` looks innocent
  847. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: I means bugs like <a href="#appcache-history-1">change</span> (in the source)
  848. # [23:00] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=jgraham@81-86-215-230.dsl.pipex.com)
  849. # [23:01] * gsnedders follows Philip`'s suggestion to get rid of the last bit of XPath, making it .3s quicker
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  851. # [23:02] * Quits: ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  852. # [23:03] <Philip`> I never suggested getting rid of the last bit of XPath
  853. # [23:03] <Philip`> I actually suggested the exact opposite
  854. # [23:03] <gsnedders> pedantic sod :)
  855. # [23:03] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/hgwebdir.cgi/spec-gen/rev/1a00bbac777e
  856. # [23:03] <Philip`> (keeping it to find all elements with ids)
  857. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Did you? I forgot that. But that's already gone. :P
  858. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: 0.718s (for //*[@id]) v. 0.185s (for iter over all elements, and manually checking if they have an @id)
  859. # [23:07] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  860. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: can I still `cat header-whatwg source` and just ignore the *.inc files?
  861. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can I get you to fix a rather major bug in the spec source, that the real spec-gen silently changes?
  862. # [23:18] <gsnedders> '<a href="#appcache-history-1">change</span>' ought to have a closing </a>, not a closing </span>
  863. # [23:18] <annevk> oh, whatwg.org is back up
  864. # [23:18] <gsnedders> oh wait
  865. # [23:18] <gsnedders> I'm being dumb
  866. # [23:18] * annevk thought it was down from the logs and hesitated to check
  867. # [23:19] <gsnedders> I'm just looking at html5.old, my old copy
  868. # [23:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do nothing.
  869. # [23:19] <Hixie> i can do that
  870. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: BTW, you've made it run slower :(
  871. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: Though that was just by making the spec longer.
  872. # [23:20] <Hixie> heh
  873. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: Less detail, plz
  874. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Oh dear. I don't think this is good. id="prose-content."
  875. # [23:22] <annevk> Hixie, hey, we managed to publish something today :)
  876. # [23:22] <annevk> Hixie, http://www.w3.org/TR/offline-webapps/
  877. # [23:22] <gsnedders> http://validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fstuff.gsnedders.com%2Fhtml5.html — they're all down to html5lib's brokenness, as far as I can see
  878. # [23:23] <annevk> given that I don't see myself doing anything else useful today I'll write a short blog entry for blog.whatwg.org
  879. # [23:24] <jgraham_> Oh, blogging. Yeah I was going to write something about @media. I wonder if Lachy put the slides up yet
  880. # [23:24] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  881. # [23:25] <jgraham_> gsnedders: That looks simple to fix. Patches welcome :)
  882. # [23:25] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  883. # [23:25] <annevk> Lachy, you around? Can you make me admin or something on the blog?
  884. # [23:25] * jgraham_ could just not be lazy and fix it himself
  885. # [23:25] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Or just commits :)
  886. # [23:25] <annevk> Lachy, I can't even add a category
  887. # [23:26] <jgraham_> annevk: I can do that, I think
  888. # [23:26] <annevk> cool
  889. # [23:26] <gsnedders> I think I managed to break stuff, which is odd.
  890. # [23:27] <jgraham_> Er, I don't seem to be able to log in at the moment
  891. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jgraham_: We can allow < in unquoted attributes too
  892. # [23:28] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  893. # [23:28] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU)
  894. # [23:29] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Can I change a test without being killed?
  895. # [23:29] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Which test? And why?
  896. # [23:29] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  897. # [23:29] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU)
  898. # [23:29] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Change: u'<span title="foo<bar">' to u'<span title=foo<bar>'
  899. # [23:29] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-69c1b61f4b8dccd9)
  900. # [23:29] <gsnedders> jgraham_: < is allowed in unquoted attributes
  901. # [23:30] <jgraham_> That sounds reasonable
  902. # [23:30] * jgraham_ is not too familiar with the serializer tests
  903. # [23:31] * gsnedders isn't either.
  904. # [23:31] <gsnedders> I just changed to code to match the spec and looked at what tests it caused to fail :)
  905. # [23:32] <jgraham_> When I try to log in to the WHATWG blog it tells me that I got my password wrong. When I try to reset my password, it tells me that the link it sent me has an invalid key
  906. # [23:32] <Hixie> uh
  907. # [23:32] <Hixie> did we get owned or something
  908. # [23:33] <annevk> it worked for me, but I don't have an admin account
  909. # [23:33] * gsnedders commits to html5lib
  910. # [23:33] <jgraham_> (it is possible that I really got my password wrong of course)
  911. # [23:34] <jgraham_> (but the reset thing should work)
  912. # [23:35] <Hixie> man the wordpress ui changed since hte last time i was here
  913. # [23:35] <Hixie> annevk: made you admin
  914. # [23:35] <Hixie> annevk: can you work how jgraham_'s problem? :-)
  915. # [23:35] <Hixie> work out, even
  916. # [23:36] <annevk> hehe
  917. # [23:36] <annevk> lots of new features
  918. # [23:36] <gsnedders> http://stuff.gsnedders.com/html5.html — now valid!
  919. # [23:36] <annevk> jgraham_, i'll pm you on w3.org
  920. # [23:37] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  921. # [23:37] <Hixie> oh i see how to reset the password
  922. # [23:37] <Hixie> i can reset it right here if you want jgraham_
  923. # [23:37] <Hixie> or anne can do it
  924. # [23:37] <Hixie> whichever :-
  925. # [23:37] <Hixie> )
  926. # [23:37] <annevk> i just did
  927. # [23:37] <Hixie> cool
  928. # [23:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: When making changes like allowing =, it would be good to add a test that fails in the old code and passes in the new code
  929. # [23:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: That is true, actually
  930. # [23:38] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU)
  931. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: And fixing the description for the change
  932. # [23:39] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  933. # [23:39] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Should I change the order to make it more logical, or keep it verbatim?
  934. # [23:40] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Of the tests? Change the order. Our tests should really be sorted into some sort of structure so tiny baby steps can' hurt
  935. # [23:41] * gsnedders commits
  936. # [23:47] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-a8a8fc06f54073d8)
  937. # [23:47] <Hixie> Philip`: k, the 404 thing should work now, let me know if it is broken
  938. # [23:48] <Philip`> Hixie: Oops
  939. # [23:48] <Philip`> Hixie: It needs <body onload="fixBrokenLink()">
  940. # [23:48] * Philip` forgot about that part
  941. # [23:49] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/offline-webapps
  942. # [23:49] <Hixie> try now?
  943. # [23:50] <Philip`> Hixie: Works now - thanks!
  944. # [23:50] <Hixie> cool
  945. # [23:50] <Hixie> it runs a couple of sed commands on the original whatwg 404 page
  946. # [23:50] <Hixie> and creates the .htaccess file to use it
  947. # [23:50] <Hixie> so hopefully if i modify the main whatwg 404 page, it'll keep track
  948. # [23:50] <Philip`> Hmm, doesn't work in IE because IE replaces the whole error page
  949. # [23:51] <Hixie> sucks to be an IE user
  950. # [23:51] <Hixie> bbiab
  951. # [23:52] <Philip`> Oh, real IE7 (vs Wine IE6) does display the error page
  952. # [23:52] <Philip`> but has a "permission denied" JS error while running the script :-/
  953. # [23:53] <Philip`> Oh, it worked this time
  954. # [23:53] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  955. # [23:54] <Philip`> That's good enough for me
  956. # [23:55] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-a8a8fc06f54073d8)
  957. # [23:56] * Philip` will ignore the problem that old links to .../multipage/section-foo.html (with no #) are broken and don't automatically fix themselves
  958. # [23:59] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-200.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  959. # Session Close: Wed Jun 04 00:00:00 2008

The end :)