/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 07 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> yet more MS delay
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  7. # [00:07] <Hixie> oh jeez
  8. # [00:07] <Hixie> microsoft are writing a Paper
  9. # [00:07] <Hixie> so
  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> glad
  11. # [00:08] <Hixie> that you took xhr from me
  12. # [00:08] <gsnedders> We'll make annevk regret it!
  13. # [00:13] <annevk> makes you wonder what they're planning for html5
  14. # [00:14] <Hixie> oh they've tried hard to delay html5
  15. # [00:14] <Hixie> without success so far (except for delaying the start of the patent clock)
  16. # [00:18] <Hixie> crap, the parser reports an error for <!DOCTYPE HTML><div><li><rp><li></div>
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  18. # [00:20] <Hixie> i guess <li> should generate implied end tags...?
  19. # [00:20] <Hixie> why doesn't it
  20. # [00:20] <Hixie> hm
  21. # [00:21] <Hixie> oh i see
  22. # [00:21] <Hixie> until i added <rp> and <rt> it wasn't necessary
  23. # [00:21] <Hixie> oops
  24. # [00:23] <annevk> wh is the parse error an issue?
  25. # [00:29] <Hixie> well, it's extraneous
  26. # [00:29] <Hixie> the error is the missing <ruby>
  27. # [00:30] <Hixie> not the missing </rp>
  28. # [00:31] <annevk> fair enough
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  32. # [01:03] <jgraham_> http://james.html5.org/temp/html5lib-0.11.zip a second attempt at html5lib-0.11
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  35. # [01:19] <annevk> Hixie, lol
  36. # [01:19] * annevk finds 'An end tag whose tag name is "sarcasm"'
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  41. # [01:26] <Dashiva> annevk: How many angry outbursts for not taking the w3c seriously will that trigger, I wonder :)
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  43. # [01:27] <annevk> I'm sure people will complain, because as defined it does exactly nothing
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  46. # [01:32] <Hixie> it requires you to take a deep breath!
  47. # [01:32] * Hixie applies the first sticker to his laptop
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  49. # [01:33] <Dashiva> Hixie: Is that a normative requirement?
  50. # [01:33] <Dashiva> Because I think it will be exceedingly difficult to add breathing capabilities to most user agents
  51. # [01:34] <annevk> that's just a platform limitation
  52. # [01:34] <Hixie> Dashiva: yup
  53. # [01:34] <Hixie> annevk: indeed
  54. # [01:34] * Hixie is happy with his sticker ("My other computer is a data center")
  55. # [01:35] <Dashiva> Not a beowulf cluster of toasters?
  56. # [01:35] <Hixie> no, my other computer really is a data center, that's why i like it :-)
  57. # [01:36] <Philip`> But you have to share it with a hundred million other users, whereas my computers are all mine
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  59. # [01:37] <Hixie> no comment
  60. # [01:37] <Dashiva> My other computer is standing in the hallway, waiting for the electrician to show up and make a properly earthed power outlet
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  62. # [01:37] <Hixie> heh
  63. # [01:38] <Hixie> hey
  64. # [01:38] <Hixie> this <li> problem is just because i'm not faking an end tag
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  66. # [01:42] <annevk> so <datalist> requires a new insertion model
  67. # [01:42] <Hixie> why?
  68. # [01:42] <annevk> for <option>?
  69. # [01:42] <Hixie> i just plan to make <option> into a phrasing element with some magic for optional end tags
  70. # [01:43] <annevk> Opera treats <option> "like" <option/>
  71. # [01:45] <annevk> IE does something similar (plus the /OPTION weirdness for the end tag)
  72. # [01:45] <annevk> Firefox just drops it
  73. # [01:45] <Hixie> yeah
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  75. # [01:46] <Hixie> but i can't see any way that treating it like <span> could break anything
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  77. # [01:46] <annevk> option { background:lime }
  78. # [01:47] <annevk> but maybe it's feasible
  79. # [01:47] <Hixie> yeah but do any pages do that while also having one in the middle of nowhere?
  80. # [01:47] <annevk> for <datalist> Opera seems to do something similar to <select> except that <select> is allowed as child
  81. # [01:47] <annevk> that doesn't seem good
  82. # [01:48] <Hixie> indeed
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  94. # [02:27] <Hixie> ok well i think this fixes the main problems
  95. # [02:33] <Philip`> jgraham_: test and install works for me on that version
  96. # [02:38] <Philip`> jgraham_: but it fails when I use something with a different version of simplejson
  97. # [02:42] <Philip`> (In particular: Works with simplejson 1.7.1 in python2.5; fails with 1.9.1 in python2.4)
  98. # [02:44] <Philip`> (It doesn't like non-ASCII in test1.test)
  99. # [02:46] <Philip`> Lots of tests fails with BeautifulSoup-3.0.6 in python2.4
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  103. # [02:57] <Philip`> Hmm, how nice - BeautifulSoup has decl.string == 'html', but unicode(decl.string) == '<!html>'
  104. # [02:58] <Philip`> except in Python 2.4 unicode(decl.string) == 'html'
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  113. # [03:30] <Philip`> jgraham_: I've committed some changes that are needed for some versions of Python I have; otherwise it seems to work fine in my 2.3/2.4/2.5 Pythons, except for the title=foo=bar test that you seem to have fixed in your zipped version, and except for some hex overflow warnings in Python 2.3
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  127. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> "thanks for waiting"
  128. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> what the hell else choice do we have?
  129. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> wait, I guess we could offer to write the "paper" for them
  130. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> I think I'll do that
  131. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> this weekend
  132. # [04:35] <Philip`> <datatemplate> scares me :-(
  133. # [04:40] <Philip`> Mutual recursion is great
  134. # [04:40] <Philip`> s/great/evil/
  135. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> heh
  136. # [04:48] <Dashiva> Mutual recursion is recursing mutually is mutual recursion?
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  138. # [05:08] <Philip`> Maybe I shouldn't send emails trying to explain nasty complicated algorithms at 4am :-/
  139. # [05:09] <Dashiva> Maybe I should be asleep at 5 am...
  140. # [05:09] <Philip`> I reason that the birds outside aren't asleep, so I don't see why I ought to be
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  142. # [05:11] <Dashiva> Too bad you didn't reason like that when they were asleep :)
  143. # [05:12] <Philip`> I was too busy with <datatemplate>s to be able to reason :-)
  144. # [05:13] <Philip`> (Also playing PAA:OtRSPoD:E1, which is possibly less useful)
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  152. # [07:05] <takkaria> Philip`: I do often wonder if you ever sleep at all
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  165. # [09:34] <annevk> Philip`, I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenberg–Marquardt_algorithm
  166. # [09:35] <annevk> but then I don't know about either that algorithm or <datagrid> to connect the dots
  167. # [09:36] <annevk> know enough*
  168. # [09:43] <annevk> http://simonwillison.net/2008/Jun/6/patent/ :o
  169. # [09:57] <Hixie> that algorithm has nothing to do with it
  170. # [09:57] <Hixie> the "levenberg" algorithm in the spec is just what josh came up with when i asked him how to solve the problem
  171. # [09:58] <annevk> ok, so what Philip` said :)
  172. # [09:58] <Hixie> yup
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  174. # [10:23] <hsivonen> hmm. the 2005 DOM Core threads about aligning the spec with the real world are sad
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  176. # [10:29] <annevk> we should just rebrand the DOM specs to Web DOM specs so there's no confusion
  177. # [10:29] <annevk> Web DOM -> Web, DOM specs -> well...
  178. # [10:33] <annevk> Hmm, they're standardizing UA sniffing with a really complicated server side API... http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/DDWG/drafts/api/080602
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  185. # [12:21] <annevk> view source: http://jarvklo.se/ :)
  186. # [12:24] <annevk> http://cafe.elharo.com/web/refactoring-html/why-xhtml/#comment-235640 "They attempt to destroy standards by insisting on mindless conformance to them, all practical experience to the contrary." yup...
  187. # [12:25] * annevk was hoping nobody would figure it out
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  190. # [12:57] <jgraham_> Does anyone have a strong opinion on whether html5lib should accept e.g. utf8 as a synonym for utf-8?
  191. # [12:58] <annevk> html5 says we should I think
  192. # [12:58] <gsnedders> yeah, they're identical per html5
  193. # [12:58] <jgraham_> Oh, that must have changed since I last looked at this
  194. # [12:58] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#charset
  195. # [12:58] <annevk> likely
  196. # [12:59] <gsnedders> It was a fairly recent change
  197. # [12:59] <gsnedders> actually, that's not it
  198. # [12:59] <annevk> jgraham_, when is your blogpost going online?
  199. # [12:59] <jgraham_> annevk: About @media? After Lachy outs the slides online... (hint ;) )
  200. # [12:59] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#character0 — that's the right link
  201. # [13:00] <annevk> Lachy, ^^
  202. # [13:00] <annevk> or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#character0
  203. # [13:00] <gsnedders> http://bugs.simplepie.org/repositories/entry/sp1/trunk/create.php — that's what I use now
  204. # [13:01] <annevk> I wonder if we can make it a fixed list of character encodings
  205. # [13:01] <gsnedders> annevk: in the spec?
  206. # [13:01] <annevk> yes
  207. # [13:01] <gsnedders> That would be nice.
  208. # [13:01] <annevk> a list of Web character encodings
  209. # [13:02] * gsnedders notes in his new impl. he does support UTF-32 (but on PHP 5 everything is stored as UTF-32 binary strings)
  210. # [13:03] <annevk> omg, idiots
  211. # [13:03] <gsnedders> Simply because perf. of things like substr() would be terrible using anything that sometimes used more than one word per codepoint
  212. # [13:03] <gsnedders> annevk: ?
  213. # [13:03] <annevk> storings things in UTF-32 is a design flaw
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  215. # [13:04] <virtuelv> anyone looked at eric meyer's linking proposal?
  216. # [13:04] <gsnedders> annevk: Find any other way to do stuff performantly :(
  217. # [13:04] <annevk> gsnedders, even with UTF-32 you can have a single character spanning multiple code points
  218. # [13:04] <jgraham_> gsnedders: the substring argument may be optimizing for the wrong thing
  219. # [13:05] <gsnedders> annevk: As far as I can see substr() natively on PHP 6 just does it to codepoints, not characters
  220. # [13:05] <annevk> in that case basing it on UTF-16 would be better
  221. # [13:05] <gsnedders> jgraham_: It optimises for most optimisations, though, doing that (it's also the cheapest to decode/encode to)
  222. # [13:05] <hsivonen> annevk: no, you can't, but you can have a grapheme cluster spanning code points
  223. # [13:05] <annevk> as that's at least compatible with the DOM/JavaScript etc.
  224. # [13:05] <jgraham_> gsnedders: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/string_theory.html
  225. # [13:06] <gsnedders> annevk: Why? Then I have to scan through the string trying to find surrogates
  226. # [13:06] <annevk> hsivonen, is that the same as combined characters?
  227. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah
  228. # [13:08] <annevk> (that's what I meant)
  229. # [13:08] <gsnedders> annevk: UTF-16 will be slower. What might be quicker is having duplicate code paths, one for ASCII only UTF-8, and another for UTF-8 (when using the actual UTF-8 codepath it'll be slower than UTF-32 though)
  230. # [13:09] <annevk> UTF-32 doesn't handle combined characters
  231. # [13:09] <gsnedders> I know.
  232. # [13:09] <annevk> and eats up way too much memory and is more or less obsolete anyway as far as anyone is concerned
  233. # [13:09] <gsnedders> PHP is just too slow :(
  234. # [13:16] <gsnedders> If I were to use UTF-8 or UTF-16 I need to manually iterate over the string for things like substr to count the number of characters I'd got past, taking into account multi-byte sequences, and surrogates. With UTF-32, I can just use PHP's built-in substr function, as each codepoint is four bytes.
  235. # [13:16] <gsnedders> iterating over a string is VERY slow in PHP when you're having to watch it as a unicode string (decoding is far too slow)
  236. # [13:20] <hsivonen> if you aren't Mozilla or Opera, you should probably just use whatever UTF-* your language + its built-in string library use
  237. # [13:22] <gsnedders> hsivonen: In the case of PHP 5, that's binary strings, and no Unicode.
  238. # [13:25] <hsivonen> I don't know about PHP 5, but in PHP 4 it means byte strings with UTF-8 in them or int arrays with UTF-32 code unit per array slot
  239. # [13:26] <Philip`> gsnedders: Perl stores UTF-8 internally, and its substr() performance doesn't seem to be unacceptable
  240. # [13:26] <gsnedders> hsivonen: PHP 5 is the same as PHP 4
  241. # [13:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: It has the advantage of not needing to try and operate it in the interpreted userland, though, but in the compiled interpreter
  242. # [13:27] <gsnedders> (PHP 6, however, has Unicode support)
  243. # [13:27] <gsnedders> I want something that can behave identically on PHP 5 and PHP 6, while using PHP 6's native support
  244. # [13:28] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, by "on PHP 5 everything is stored as UTF-32 binary strings" do you mean that you chose to store everything as UTF-32 because PHP doesn't do Unicode strings at all, as opposed to meaning that PHP itself stores Unicode strings as UTF-32?
  245. # [13:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: PHP < 6 (which isn't out yet) doesn't do any Unicode
  246. # [13:29] <Philip`> Ah
  247. # [13:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, there are some extensions that cope, one that is enabled by default, but it stops processing on the first invalid byte
  248. # [13:29] <gsnedders> and it has all kinds of bugs
  249. # [13:30] <annevk> good times
  250. # [13:30] <annevk> i'm glad my blog doesn't require the complex PHP bits
  251. # [13:30] <annevk> such as substr() :D
  252. # [13:30] <Philip`> It's strange how a toy language can become so popular ;-)
  253. # [13:30] <gsnedders> (and as PHP 6 is even less backwards compatible than PHP 5 was, and PHP 5 had slow uptake)
  254. # [13:31] <hsivonen> PHP is aimed at people who should be given all the high-level library support imaginable, but then what PHP does with strings is the kind of thing portable C does
  255. # [13:31] <gsnedders> hsivonen: PHP just generally sucks.
  256. # [13:31] <hsivonen> i.e. giving just a run of bytes without any Unicode libraries
  257. # [13:31] <hsivonen> yes, PHP sucks
  258. # [13:31] <hsivonen> I walked away from PHP years ago
  259. # [13:31] <gsnedders> It's not just strings. Everything sucks.
  260. # [13:32] <hsivonen> my latest encounter with PHP was patching the WHATWG blog and the experience made me unhappy
  261. # [13:32] <hsivonen> I should have know better and stayed away
  262. # [13:32] <annevk> yet for the simple stuff it's easier than anything else
  263. # [13:32] <gsnedders> Most common bug report on SP: it just stops output! (this happens to normally be PHP crashing Apache)
  264. # [13:32] <hsivonen> annevk: if "simple" means "I don't know yet that I need to care about Unicode"
  265. # [13:32] <gsnedders> annevk: I'd say stuff like Python and Ruby is just as easy
  266. # [13:32] <annevk> though maybe that's because there's so much to copy and paste from
  267. # [13:33] <annevk> hsivonen, right
  268. # [13:33] <annevk> people have written all kinds of simple software in PHP you can learn how to do things from and improve upon
  269. # [13:33] <annevk> I haven't found nearly as much for Python
  270. # [13:34] <annevk> Python documentation is also quite crappy
  271. # [13:34] <gsnedders> annevk: Yeah, but at least with Python most of the docs there are _is_ right
  272. # [13:34] <gsnedders> annevk: With PHP, half of it is wrong
  273. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Java seems to have the best docs
  274. # [13:35] * gsnedders will likely have no real exposure to Java till he's at uni
  275. # [13:35] <Philip`> Java documentation seems to always tell me how stuff works, but never tells me how to do stuff
  276. # [13:36] <hsivonen> right, Java has great per method docs. but often it is hard to learn the big picture for a new library
  277. # [13:36] <Philip`> If I don't know the class name I'm looking for, I end up having to search random web pages to find relevant links
  278. # [13:40] <Dashiva> Vector vs ArrayList, discuss
  279. # [13:40] <hsivonen> deprecade Vector. end of discussion :-)
  280. # [13:40] <hsivonen> deprecate
  281. # [13:41] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  282. # [13:43] <annevk> what Philip` says about Java is probably true for Python as well
  283. # [13:44] <annevk> Python should have some clear docs on dealing with HTML form submission / dealing with request URIs / dealing with databases
  284. # [13:48] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
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  286. # [13:50] <Philip`> I think it's probably true for all languages that I'm familiar with
  287. # [13:51] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Client Quit)
  288. # [13:51] <Dashiva> I suppose it'd be false for languages with no standard library, though :)
  289. # [13:51] <annevk> might be, for me it was just that there was enough sample PHP code around to figure out how to make blog software / simple cms software, etc.
  290. # [13:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: Do any such languages exist? Everything seems to at least have standard string functions, and it'd be pretty useless without those :-)
  291. # [13:52] <jgraham_> The python documentation for 2.6 is getting better http://docs.python.org/dev/
  292. # [13:53] <Dashiva> Philip`: Well, you'd define functions required to non-uselessness as part of the language, not the library
  293. # [13:53] <Philip`> The 2.6 docs look less like latex2html, which is nice
  294. # [13:53] <Philip`> Dashiva: I wouldn't :-p
  295. # [13:54] <Dashiva> Besides, strings are overrated.
  296. # [13:54] <Philip`> Dashiva: e.g. C has a standard library, and without it the language would be pretty useless until you built up everything yourself from scratch, but that's still a standard library
  297. # [13:54] <Philip`> Indeed, we should use ropes instead
  298. # [13:56] * jgraham_ suggests that GUI design 101 should cover not putting "Copy" and "Close Window" next to each other
  299. # [13:56] <hsivonen> modern C software has to use a string library that isn't provided by the "standard" library
  300. # [13:56] * Philip` suggests the OS should have an "undo" button, that can undo the closing of windows
  301. # [13:58] <annevk> jgraham_, still not quite focused on Web programming it seems
  302. # [13:59] <jgraham_> annevk: Sure. But better than the old documentation
  303. # [14:00] <annevk> take http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/index.html for instance
  304. # [14:00] <annevk> where's HTTP and python, HTML forms and python, MySQL and python ?
  305. # [14:00] <Dashiva> Do you really have to use urllib to urlencode something for use in urllib2?
  306. # [14:01] <jgraham_> annevk: That section's new. I guess contributions are welcome :)
  307. # [14:02] <annevk> once i'll figure it out i'll let them know :p
  308. # [14:02] <jgraham_> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebProgramming might be more informative
  309. # [14:02] <annevk> well, i have figured it out to some extent, but what i'm doing feels rather clumsy
  310. # [14:06] <annevk> hah, that wiki page endorses my naive approach
  311. # [14:10] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  312. # [14:11] <annevk> http://webpython.codepoint.net/introduction is quite nice
  313. # [14:11] <annevk> (links at the bottom)
  314. # [14:13] <hsivonen> hmm. If I read a text node from the DOM in IE8 mode, line breaks are normalized to single spaces
  315. # [14:13] <hsivonen> what's up with that?
  316. # [14:15] <Philip`> What if you set white-space:pre on that element?
  317. # [14:18] <Philip`> Seems the same as IE6/7 to me - whitespace is normalised except on elements where it's preserved (like <pre>, or <... style="white-space:pre">)
  318. # [14:19] <hsivonen> style="white-space:pre" helps in IE7
  319. # [14:19] <roc> freaky
  320. # [14:20] <Philip`> (innerHTML does the same normalisation)
  321. # [14:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: doesn't help in IE8 mode
  322. # [14:25] * Philip` encounters a way to get IE stuck in an infinite loop
  323. # [14:25] <Philip`> The Live DOM Viewer ought to have an autosave feature :-(
  324. # [14:26] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-172-205.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  325. # [14:27] <annevk> and community features so you can rate each others code and comment on it
  326. # [14:27] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cmeta%20http-equiv%3Dx-ua-compatible%20content%3Die%3D8%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3Dwhite-space%3Apre%3Etest%0Atest%3C%2Fdiv%3E in IE8 in IE8 mode shows the non-normalised newline in the DOM view
  327. # [14:30] <annevk> http://lxyedwarddudley.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/authoring-html-5-a-supplicate-in-warp-and-woof-professionals/ :o
  328. # [14:30] <gsnedders> You do realise the p element exists for a reason?
  329. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm looking at http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/document-write-cr.html
  330. # [14:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: the last script is followed by CR
  331. # [14:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: otherwise the line breaks in the source are LFs
  332. # [14:32] * Philip` guesses that's based on http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/06/html5-call-to-web-professionals.html
  333. # [14:34] <Dashiva> That page makes my head hurt, annevk
  334. # [14:40] * Dashiva wonders what the Functional Ashcan school is
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  337. # [14:47] <Philip`> Oh, great, IE changes the DOM when access .firstChild on certain elements
  338. # [14:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: are the assumptions in my test wrong?
  339. # [14:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: You may be assuming that IE is sane :-)
  340. # [14:55] * Philip` gives up trying to understand what it's doing
  341. # [14:57] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cmeta%20http-equiv%3Dx-ua-compatible%20content%3Die%3D8%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3Dwhite-space%3Apre%3Etest%0Atest%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cscript%3Ewindow.onload%3Dfunction()%7B%0Avar%20d%20%3D%20document.getElementsByTagName('div')%5B0%5D%3B%0Aw(d.childNodes.length)%0Aw(d.childNodes%5B0%5D.nodeValue.replace(%2F(.)%2Fg%2Cfunction(m)%7Breturn%20m.charCodeAt(0)%2B'%20'%7D))%3B%0AsetTime
  342. # [14:57] <Philip`> Urgh
  343. # [14:57] <Philip`> http://tinyurl.com/66d3mz
  344. # [14:58] <Philip`> In IE8, that logs "1", then "116 101 115 116 32 116 101 115 116", then "2"
  345. # [14:58] <Philip`> and the DOM view shows the text being split into two text nodes
  346. # [14:58] <Philip`> and if I remove the second w() line then it stays as a single text node
  347. # [15:00] <Philip`> But I get different behaviour in my fork of the DOM viewer - it says "13" instead of "32", and "1" instead of "2"
  348. # [15:15] * jgraham_ guesses someone has been reading too much Joyce or Pynchon
  349. # [15:32] <annevk> http://www.theologyonline.com/newgod/
  350. # [15:33] <Dashiva> god5?
  351. # [15:33] <Dashiva> Oh, 6
  352. # [15:33] <Dashiva> Must be Dmitry up to his old tricks again
  353. # [15:39] <annevk> I still wonder who did Bible5
  354. # [15:39] <annevk> it seems to be copy and pasted all over the place, e.g. http://www.biroblu.info/2007/05/例如-对于后点-现在简化汉字主要通行于中国大陆/
  355. # [15:41] <annevk> in other news, that press release is supposed to go out this month, we better hurry up with XML5, SVG5, etc. :D
  356. # [15:42] <Philip`> It doesn't matter if we miss the deadline - we can just define Calendar5 at some point in the future, so dates can mean whatever we want them to mean
  357. # [15:43] <Dashiva> Or we could just use existing implementations
  358. # [15:43] <Dashiva> Valve has a good one, I hear
  359. # [15:44] <annevk> must. be. backwards. compatible
  360. # [15:44] <Dashiva> Just define everything before Anno Valvensis as "long ago"
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  362. # [16:26] <Dashiva> I find it amusing that python raises an exception on 'raise', for not being a valid raise statement
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  365. # [17:00] <Philip`> Dashiva: It is a valid raise statement, as long as it's in the dynamic scope of an except block
  366. # [17:00] <Dashiva> Yeah, but not outside
  367. # [17:01] <Dashiva> So I say "Give me an exception" and it goes "No, you can't have one. I'm going to make an exception because you did it wrong."
  368. # [17:05] <Philip`> It can be valid if it's outside an except block
  369. # [17:05] <Philip`> as long as there's another except block which it's still inside :-)
  370. # [17:07] <Philip`> Hmm, it appears it always re-throws the most recently thrown exception, rather than actually doing dynamic scoping, which seems kind of like a bug in Python
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  378. # [18:08] <hsivonen> hmm. when pronouncing WCAG, is the vowel (i vs. e) inserted between W and C freeform or dependent on en-AU, en-GB, en-US, etc.?
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  391. # [20:11] <Lachy> hsivonen, it's not really dependant on anything like that. It's just the preference of whoever says it
  392. # [20:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok. (I've now also heard recordings where the vowel varies even away from the e-i space)
  393. # [20:22] <Lachy> I've not heard anyone use an e sound. I've heard i, y and uh
  394. # [20:23] <hsivonen> Lachy: I used e to denote the way you pronounce it :-)
  395. # [20:24] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@day221.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Connection timed out)
  396. # [20:24] <Lachy> huh? I prounounce it like WhyCAG
  397. # [20:25] <hsivonen> hmm. somehow I got an e-like impression from the standards suck episode
  398. # [20:25] <hsivonen> well, doesn't matter
  399. # [20:27] <gsnedders> I pronounce the WC like the word wick
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  401. # [20:28] <Dashiva> wickag?
  402. # [20:28] <gsnedders> yeah
  403. # [20:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: is the 'i' as in en-US 'list'?
  404. # [20:29] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No
  405. # [20:29] <Dashiva> I mentally equalize the w in wcag with x in xwhatever, so I would always pronounce it separately
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  418. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Oh brilliant.
  419. # [20:49] <gsnedders> I click the "confirm your purchase" button and nothing happens. yay.
  420. # [20:49] <Philip`> I avoid the pronunciation problem by never talking about it
  421. # [20:49] <gsnedders> (odd sidenote on that matter: Air France is cheaper than easyjet)
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  845. # [23:06] <jgraham_> Hmm. I wonder if Laura missed my point about the Python process being "unfair" but arguably producing good results because of it
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  927. # Session Close: Sun Jun 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)